Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: fdiron on October 13, 2002, 05:55:55 AM
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F4U-4 vs SpitXIV
I have had several encounters with the Spitfire XIV while flying the F4U4. It is my experience that the -4 is a superior aircraft. The XIV has only a slight turning advantage over the -4 and can neither roll, dive, or decelerate as fast. The F4U-4 is faster than the SpitXIV, especially on the deck. At 25k both aircraft peak out at ~450mph. The spit has a large climb advantage over the F4 at lower altitudes, but they are nearly identical at higher alts.
So I guess the question is, would you rather be flying a Spit XIV or F4U-4? For me, I think the F4U-4 is a 'world beater'.
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BUT
The spit14 has the climb rate to escape from an iffy situation. The F4U-4 has to prettymuch avoid them completly.
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Originally posted by Innominate
BUT
The spit14 has the climb rate to escape from an iffy situation. The F4U-4 has to prettymuch avoid them completly.
I recently chased down and killed some guy's F4U-4 with my SBD. That is a prime example of how to squander a plane's performance through miserable SA and very poor judgement.
My experience with the F4U-4 is that if you manage your E carefully, it is virtually untouchable. Three times yesterday, I ripped right through a horde of Seafires and Hellcats to rocket and strafe all of their LVTs. There was absolutely nothing the enemy could do about it. Once the LVTs were dead, I inflicted the same abuse on the fighters, capping the sortie with a PT blown to dust.
In terms of HTC's modelling of the -4, climb rate is about 10-15% below what it should be. Other than that, it is an extremely potent fighter, and I certainly prefer it to the Spitfire XIV and the Tempest V.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
In terms of HTC's modelling of the -4, climb rate is about 10-15% below what it should be. Other than that, it is an extremely potent fighter, and I certainly prefer it to the Spitfire XIV and the Tempest V.
You're completly right on every point. However, the p51d or dora is almost exactly the same way. The f4u-4 lacks the performance to escape(that is, without having to fight) being bounced by something like a p51d, or dora. The same is true of the 152, and the spit14, but not the me262.(Note, I'm intentionally leaving the tempest out of this, because I'm not familiar enough with it to comment.) The perk planes which are vulnerable to being bounced shouldn't be forced to fly in the stratosphere to avoid being singled out. The gangbang tags should go.
You should fly a perk plane a certain way to try and avoid losing the perks. You shouldn't have to fly them differently to simply avoid being gangbanged, or singled out. The performance advantage is not big enough to justify it. Untill that happens, the only perk planes worth flying(Unless spending 10minutes climbing is your idea of a good time) are the C-hog and the 262.
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Spit XIV
Nim
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Originally posted by Innominate
You're completly right on every point. However, the p51d or dora is almost exactly the same way. The f4u-4 lacks the performance to escape(that is, without having to fight) being bounced by something like a p51d, or dora. The same is true of the 152, and the spit14, but not the me262.(Note, I'm intentionally leaving the tempest out of this, because I'm not familiar enough with it to comment.) The perk planes which are vulnerable to being bounced shouldn't be forced to fly in the stratosphere to avoid being singled out. The gangbang tags should go.
You should fly a perk plane a certain way to try and avoid losing the perks. You shouldn't have to fly them differently to simply avoid being gangbanged, or singled out. The performance advantage is not big enough to justify it. Untill that happens, the only perk planes worth flying(Unless spending 10minutes climbing is your idea of a good time) are the C-hog and the 262.
I tend to fly the F4U-4 more aggressively that the C-Hog, and this tour I'm flying the C-Hog more than ever. I don't worry about being bounced. Largely because it simply does not happen. Being bounced means not seeing the enemy, and I almost never get surprised.
My philosophy is very simple: Never worry about the enemy, let the enemy worry about you.
With the -4 you have an extremely fast fighter that will dominate any fight if you manage your E, and force the enemy to fight to your strengths. Mustangs and Doras are terrific fighters. I know, because I fly them both. However, Co-E and Co-alt with the F4U-4, they are over-matched. As for the Tempest and La-7, they have good speed on the deck and decent maneuverability. Yet, neither concerns me as long as I keep my E up and force them to cope with me, rather than the reverse. I also fly the Tempest, and frankly, I find it inferior to the -4 in terms of all-around capability. It has great speed below 20k, monster guns and dives well. Nonetheless, it does nothing better than the -4 and suffers from a very weak radiator. Almost any hit results in a coolant leak. On the other hand, the -4 is reasonably robust and has no radiator.
As to perk tags. I tend to agree that they draw attention. Then again, so what? Most of the guys who race after properly flown perk planes are just begging to get smacked. By properly flown, I mean using the aircraft's great speed to maximum advantage. Getting one low and slow just tells me the pilot lacks the fundamental knowledge and/or SA required in the first place. Those guys who fly perk planes on a regular basis simply don't make those mistakes, and consequently are extremely dangerous. Three examples being MCBird, Orel and Voss. This tour, I have over 100 kills in perk planes (not flying jets), and haven't lost a single one to enemy fighters. This is due to good SA and proper tactics, not the result of extraordinary dogfighting skills.
For dogfighting, I prefer the FM-2 (haven't lost any of those yet either) and the SBD, with which I am maintaining better than a 8:1 K/D air to air. J_A_B joined me aboard my Dauntless last evening, and we had fun defending a CV, even landing couple of fighter kills. If anyone wishes to ride along, the backseat is available to those wanting to come and I always accept "join requests" when flying it.
Back to the topic. I like the SpitfireXIV, however, it is a rather frail fighter. I also like the Tempest, but its radiator is rediculously weak. I see no reason to perk the Ta 152 beyond 10 points, and the C-Hog is just about right as it is. Taken as a group, I certainly prefer the F4U-4 over the others, because it lacks the weaknesses of the liquid cooled fighters, and will flat-out fly circles around the C-Hog. Nonetheless, nothing beats the C-Hog for tearing bomber formations to shreds.
My regards,
Widewing
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From about 3000 to 14000feet the p51d is faster than the f4u4. Thier climb rate is fairly evenly matched from 3 to about 8000feet, above that the f4u4 does gain a signficiant advantage. Most fights happen in this altitude range. Anything higher is altmonkeying. At these altitude, the f4u4 and p51d are almost identical.
From 1000feet to about 15000feet, the dora will out-run the f4u4. It will also easily out-climb it up to 15000feet.
One of the f4u4's strengths over planes like the dora, and la7 is low speed turning ability, which would be suicidal to use in the MA.
The f4u4's only exceptional speed is between 0 and about 1000feet, where it's faster than every free plane, except the la7(but only by about 2mph). Between 1000 and about 5000feet, the speed drops off sharply, giving a severe penealty at these altitudes.
I don't complain about perk costs, but the tags ruin the fun of flying these planes. I don't mind dying in them, but it's annoying when a lone fighter cruising at 25k picks your f4u4 out of a large group of friendlies. I'd rather fly a c-hog.
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"I don't mind dying in them, but it's annoying when a lone fighter cruising at 25k picks your f4u4 out of a large group of friendlies. "
So you'd prefer it to attack someone else so you could then cherry-pick it?
Try flying alone a lot of the time. Then I guarantee you won't see anything wrong with the tags--when it's just you against a bunch of enemies, they're all going to attack you regardless of what tag you have. And try to remember you WILL lose them occasionally because NO plane is invincible.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by J_A_B
"I don't mind dying in them, but it's annoying when a lone fighter cruising at 25k picks your f4u4 out of a large group of friendlies. "
So you'd prefer it to attack someone else so you could then cherry-pick it?
Exactly. :D
Seriously though, The whole point of safety in numbers is that it reduces the chance of your being targeted randomly. In an f4u4, it doesnt matter how many friendlies are around, it's just you, and a wingman if you have one.
Even when you're alone the f4u4 tag draws more than normal. Often, a non-perk plane will be ignored by people who aren't in a position to easily intercept, but a perk tag will draw anyone who can point thier nose at you.
The odds are always worse than in a free plane. In the me262, this isn't an issue, but in a plane that doesnt have any significant speed advantage, the odds quickly become too much.
A p51d is more survivable than an f4u4, if both are flown exactly the same way. This is only because of the tags.
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"A p51d is more survivable than an f4u4, if both are flown exactly the same way."
Depends on how you fly them and how agressive you are. If you choose to fly in a very conservative manner and not USE the F4U-4's strengths, then indeed there's little reason to choose it.
For MA purposes, the 190D-9 is a better choice for 75% of the P-51D pilots out there as well, because the typical MA 51 driver doesn't use the 51's main advantages over the Dora. They make long, straight passes and maybe reverse once they're out of ICON range.
What a plane can do is one thing. Actually making use of its strengths is another matter entirely. The F4U-4 outclimbs the P-51 at many altitudes, outruns it at important altitudes, outrolls and out-turns it and I believe it outzooms the Mustang as well. It carries more ammo and can take a lot more damage. It's even available from carriers (and it makes a wonderful fleet defence fighter).
Don't worry about how many enemies are attacking you. Only worry about their position relative to you. More attackers who aren't a direct threat only means more potential targets.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by J_A_B
"A p51d is more survivable than an f4u4, if both are flown exactly the same way."
Depends on how you fly them and how agressive you are. If you choose to fly in a very conservative manner and not USE the F4U-4's strengths, then indeed there's little reason to choose it.
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What a plane can do is one thing. Actually making use of its strengths is another matter entirely. The F4U-4 outclimbs the P-51 at many altitudes, outruns it at important altitudes, outrolls and out-turns it and I believe it outzooms the Mustang as well. It carries more ammo and can take a lot more damage. It's even available from carriers (and it makes a wonderful fleet defence fighter).
Don't worry about how many enemies are attacking you. Only worry about their position relative to you. More attackers who aren't a direct threat only means more potential targets.
ok, To start with, if you fly an f4u4 to its strengths, and then switch to a p51d, using the same techniques, you will do better. There p51 doesn't climb as well, but everything else it's only close behind. The planes are very similar, although the f4u4 does come out on top much of the time. Not having the tags is a HUGE advantage, more than enough to make up for the f4u4's small performance advantage.
The f4u4 DOES out-climb the p51d above 8000 feet, and below 3000 feet. I am wondering though, what you consider to be important altitudes? Virtually all fights happen at the altitudes where the p51d out-runs the f4u4. between about 3k and 14k, the dora between 1k and 15k. So if 100feet, and 16000feet are the important altitudes, and not the altitudes where most people fly, then sure the f4u4 is faster. Define important altitudes please.
The f4u4 DOES handle very well in low speed turning fights, possibly better than the p51d.(I havn't tested it though, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) The big problem is, because of the tags, a turning fight is suicide, unless it's a 1v1 fight, if there is more than one baddie, turning is not an option. Handling above 250mph or so is fairly irrelavent, except at speeds where some planes start to compress, since virtually any plane can black the pilot out at those speeds.
The tags draw people to you. In a free plane, people will often pass you up if you don't look like an easy kill. In a perk plane, if they can engage you, they will. They will even go out of thier way to do it. As you say, thier position to you is what matters. If you're not above them, you're in serious trouble, whereas in say, a p51d, you're in a much better position.
The tags are one of the biggest disadvantages any plane can have.
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Perk tags are STUPID. Theres no reason you should see F4U-4 from 6000 yards, if you get in close you can see the paint job, but those that say perk tags are ok for perked varients are being ignorant, all it does is make the perk planes more valuable as bait than as planes.
This makes perk planes LESS attractive to fly than their non perk equivalents, EVEN IF THE POINT COST IS MEANINGLESS TO YOU (I really could care less about losing 60 perk points out of a few thousand)
F4U in a furball 10 vs 10, Ive got a good chance of getting several kills and surviving using sound tactics, but not in an F4U-4, after one pass, at least 5, probably more, of the enemy are going to be ignoring everyone else in the hopes of killing my perk plane. Making the perk varient all but useless in normal play.
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If it didnt add to the value of the simular varients that are not perked I would aggree. I dont think a spit i should be able to be confused with a spit xiv.
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Originally posted by Pongo
If it didnt add to the value of the simular varients that are not perked I would aggree. I dont think a spit i should be able to be confused with a spit xiv.
You mean like a 109E can be confused with a 109G-10?
Or a spit1 and a spit9?
Or an f4u-1c and an f4u-1?
Or a 190A and a 190D?
Or a yak9t, and yak9u?
We already deal with exactly what you mention with the F4U-1C, never knowing if that f4u has cannons or not. Most spits, and most f4u's would be the unperked variety, and it's easy to determine what you're up against once you engage it.
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"You mean like a 109E can be confused with a 109G-10? "
Absolutely right, in a perfect world every plane would have a unique ID tag :)
Oh and ALF, my thought is people who want no special tags on perk planes don't actually want to do anything involving skill, they just want to cherry-pick undetected. That is the ONLY possible motive for worrying about having a special ICON.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by J_A_B
Oh and ALF, my thought is people who want no special tags on perk planes don't actually want to do anything involving skill, they just want to cherry-pick undetected. That is the ONLY possible motive for worrying about having a special ICON.
Cherry pick undetected? I think you're missing the whole point. Right now cherry picking is the only option in the f4u4, anything else and you're going to get raped. The entire point of removing the tags is to allow people to be more agressive in them, without having too worry about having every red icon within 4000yards pointed at them.
If I wanted to cherry pick undetected, I'd say "Remove the icons completly".
The f4u4, spit14, and ta152 do NOT have performance that seriously outclasses the free planes. They have small advantages, and overall perform somewhat better, but a co-e fight betweeen the free planes and any of those three is a fairly even match. Why should a plane which has performance that isn't significiantly better than the p51d, not have the same anonymous tag?
What is the point of the perk system?
Is it supposed to be a reward for flying early war planes? Or is it there to stop people from WANTING to fly the perk planes? Right now because of the tags, there is no fun in flying at 25000feet to avoid being bounced, then having to look around for someone to fight, killing them, and then having every red icon in the area drop what thier doing to chase you.
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The F4U-4s turning ability has saved me many times in the MA. This is especially true on the 'pizza' map. Usually when I find myself in trouble, I start turning. If I still cant shake the bandit, I drop gear, drop flaps, and scissor like crazy. As of yet, I've never had a plane NOT over-shoot me. This includes Spit XIVs. The big rudder on the F4U-4 allows snap-shots even when just 1 or 2 knts above stall speed.
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F4U-4 has low-speed turning ability? LOL
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Originally posted by -ammo-
F4U-4 has low-speed turning ability? LOL
Sure does, at least compared to the other fast planes.
Using it is suicide though.
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The only perk planes worth it are the C-Hog and Me262. The C-Hog because it's cheap and nobody cares if they throw away a couple of perks, and the Me262 because you can almost always escape from even the highest diving suicide dweeb.
The others are ok, and need to be controlled, but the fun factor just isn't there most of the time. When you really need the perk plane performance is when on the defensive, where you usually end up with 20 guys chasing you instantly until a high P-51 or La7 dives in to get you turning (thus letting the rest catch up to you). The times when perks usually show up is when they have a dominant position already and know that there is little risk even if they were flying C202's.
It's not that the Perk planes get any respect from the enemy, they simply attract a suicide mentality to HO any perk plane in sight.
-Soda
The Assassins.
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Innominate--
It's been said that there's two kinds of fighter pilots....
There are the guys who fly into combat expecting to shoot at people....
And there's the guys who fly into combat secretly knowing that they're going to be shot at.
You appear to fall into the second category. Perk tags can't fix that. Instead of worrying so much about the enemy, you need to let them worry about you. Your entire problem with the perk tags amounts to the fact that they let the enemy recognize you and perhaps pick you out of the mob and attack you.
A lot of pilots biographies and memoirs talk about people like that, who flew around secretely hoping some ELSE would be attacked, doing their best to not attract attention to themselves.
For that kind of player, the F4U-1C is available as a perk plane.
J_A_B
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Yeah ammo..apparently our mechanic buys your elevators from Wal-Mart.
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No, I didn't bother to read all the messages in this thread. Had an idea for icons though.
1: at far distance: range
2: closer: range, plane type
3: near: range, plane type and mark
example of icons:
1:
4.8K
2:
109
2.5K
3:
109K-4
800
The ranges for each icon type is up for debate of course.
// fats
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Originally posted by J_A_B
You appear to fall into the second category. Perk tags can't fix that. Instead of worrying so much about the enemy, you need to let them worry about you. Your entire problem with the perk tags amounts to the fact that they let the enemy recognize you and perhaps pick you out of the mob and attack you.
You're missing the point. You seem to think I'm complaining that people shoot at me. That's wrong. I'm complaining that people will dive from 25000feet through a furball to stop cherry picking and kill a perk plane at low alt. Pilots will waste thier entire ammo bin spraying from 1200yards out, just hoping for a lucky hit. Have six enemies on your tail? No problem, just get at the perk plane before they get ya!
A free plane is a kill.
A perk plane is a trophy.
Most players will do ANYTHING to kill a perk plane. Even if it means they're going to die also. This applies to pilots who normally don't suicide. I once had someone chase my f4u4 for over 50 miles, you think someone is going to chase an la7 that far? I don't mind people trying to kill me, it would be stupid to expect otherwise, but with every dweeb within 6000yards focused on killing you without any thought to anything else, it's hard to get by. And yes, these actions DO make many of these people easy kills, but when you have everyone who can get thier nose pointed at you doing this, the odds are far against you.
There is a good reason that the f4u4 and spit14 see so little usage, and it's not because of thier performance or cost. There is a good reason the f4u-1c has better stats than the f4u4, and spit14, and it's not the performance.
Right now what we have are perk planes which are essentially worthless in the MA. By making these planes the targets they are, any small performance advantage is crushed. Perks are supposed to be a reward for flying earlier war planes, currently the perked planes are only a punishment for flying something late war.
You can't take a perk fighter into(Cherry picking from above a fight is not getting into a fight) any serious fight and expect to have any chance of living. Your only options are to hang out above the fight cherry picking, or hanging around where there is massive friendly superiority. While I'm sure some people get off on climbing to 25000feet, and then picking off anyone who happens to be AFK, the vast majority of players would rather fly something else instead.
You once said(I think it was you, too lazy to check) that flying a low eny plane like the p51d cost perks, because you earned less. What use are perks if they're no fun to use? I know I'm not alone in having several thousand perks which I don't plan on using, simply because there is no fun in it.
The problem with the perk system is that for the majority of players, earning the perks is more fun than using them.
I invite you to fly even a half a dozen sorties in the f4u4 and then comment.
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Originally posted by Innominate
I invite you to fly even a half a dozen sorties in the f4u4 and then comment.
I've flown 8 sorties with the F4U-4 so far this tour. I've killed fighters, bombers, PTs and GVs with it. Never been hit. As of today, I stand at 29 kills, no losses.
Flying timid is a sure-fire way to get whacked. I fly it the same as any other fighter. Use good SA, keep it fast and you'll have no troubles you can't handle.
My regards,
Widewing
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--- Innominate: ---
I once had someone chase my f4u4 for over 50 miles, you think someone is going to chase an la7 that far?
--- end ---
Sure. It was in another sim though with out perk rides but I would chase people all the time until I run out of gas or I would get them. That sim didn't use fuel multiplier either so it would be few hours at times.
Someone chasing you for ages might actually have had nothing to do with you being in a perk ride. He was just someone who didn't appriciate a runner for one reason or another.
// fats
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Spit XIV
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I'm confused.
I keep hearing "keep your e up" etc.
Right now successfully flying an f4u4 means doing the following:
Always stay above the fight, and cherry pick.
OR
Avoid any situation where the odds aren't in your favor. 1 vs 1 fights, or situations where friendlies vastly outnumber the enemies.
I know it's easy to be successfull in these planes, but to avoid getting raped, you can't fly it like you would fly any free fighter. Flying around looking for lone fighters, or hanging out 5000 feet above a fight isn't much fun for most people.
So does anyone have films of using the f4u4 in any situation where they're:
A. Not above everyone within icon range.
B. In any situation with many co-e enemies around.
A perk plane flown as if it were a free plane should have the same chance of success. Maintaining an E advantage over everyone should make things easier, but it shouldn't be the requirement it is now. Am I wrong?
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You have to put your perk-plane in harms way in order to get a few kills.
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Originally posted by fdiron
You have to put your perk-plane in harms way in order to get a few kills.
The same is true of every plane, but they don't have to deal with being marked as trophies.
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Spit XIV
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Originally posted by Innominate
The problem with the perk system is that for the majority of players, earning the perks is more fun than using them.
because it's the only tangible way to measure your success after a sortie... i.e. that's the only numercial value you see if you pop into the hangar after a sortie.
a lot of people simply have no desire to fly these perk rides anyway after a few sorties in them... none of the perk planes hold any lasting appeal to many players beyond the occasional just for giggles flight.
if the hangar showed "score points" earned on the last sortie, not "perk points" you might see less obsession with perkies, even tho' you'd still be earning them.
IMHO I think they're (with exception of 262 and c-hog) all overpriced by about 25-30%. plus i'd like to see them *earn* more for the kills they get... you'd almost need a 2:1 kill:perk ratio for a perk plane to "pay for itself," if not more.
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I have put a fair number of hours in the F4u-4. I have not yet been shot down by a fighter in a F4u4. It's a great plane.
F4u-4 vs. Sp14 I have rarely seen the sp14. Once that I remember, I was alone over an enemy field with a SP14 and 2 or 3 enemy within a couple thousand feet of my altitude. The 14 never even had a shot at the F4u-4, I was only able to damage him. The spit14 was always on defensive, diving for aaa etc.. It got to be so much a domination thing I even began using the sp14 as bait. Other enemy kept coming up to "help" the Sp14 and I was able to kill every one that tried to enage. In this case the perk tags were not a problem, they were a great bonus :)
This is my only personal encounter in reference to the subject of this thread. Going on this alone I take the F4U-4 anyday.
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Widewind is right, if you fly scared you aren't going to do well in any plane. If you aren't comfortable flying alone in them - you aren't going to be more safe in a pack either. That is false security. This is "war" everyone wants to kill you, doesn't matter what you are flying in. (Will I chase a La7 50 miles? Damn right I will!) Regardless of the best intentions of your fellow countrymen or your squadmates, unltimately it is falls on you alone to insure your survival.
There are plenty of stories of guys upping F4u-4 or Sp14 by mistake and having a great flight because they didn't know they were in a perk plane. The enemy seeing the tag on your perk plane is not nearly so much a problem as your own awareness of it.
I don't fly the F4U-4 so much because it is expensive - thats alot of perks to lose in a landing accident or strafing a GV. I do fly the 152 alot some nights because I don't care if I die in it, it's cheap and I somehow get kills in it. This is largely because one day I was RTB from a horde of enemy and found out that at 6k alt the 152 was faster than a La7. I started flying much lower and I kill alot more guys. Though I am not yet especially good in it, the 152 has proven to be a very good plane. I bet if I flew F4u-4 the same way I'd do 2x as well, but I can fly alot of 152's for cost of one F4u-4.
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I'm curious,
Does anyone believe that the gangbang tags don't cripple the f4u4/spit14/152? Or does anyone argue that they aren't at least a big disadvantage?
Turbot, the problem with the f4u4 is just that. You HAVE to fly it like you're going to be afraid to lose it. If you fly it like a free plane, and don't care about losing it, you're not going to do as well in the f4u4 as you would in a free f4u, or an f4u-1c.
Becuase of the tags.
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Originally posted by Innominate
If you fly it like a free plane, and don't care about losing it, you're not going to do as well in the f4u4 as you would in a free f4u, or an f4u-1c.
Becuase of the tags.
Not a scientific study, but even with my stupid flying this camp:
turbot has 34 kills and has been killed 5 times in the Ta 152H.
(edit to add what killed the 152: g10 2x p-51D 1x Mossie 1x Ship Gunner 1x)[/color]
turbot has 32 kills and has been killed 9 times in the F4U-1D.
So I submit, if you can get over "the losing it" thing you indeed can do about as well or better.
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Originally posted by Turbot
Not a scientific study, but even with my stupid flying this camp:
turbot has 34 kills and has been killed 5 times in the Ta 152H.
turbot has 32 kills and has been killed 9 times in the F4U-1D.
So I submit, if you can get over "the losing it" thing you indeed can do about as well or better.
I'm willing to bet that you don't fly the 152 and the f4u-1d in the same situations. I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make by that. You can hold a k/d ratio with gangbang tags that is slightly better than a free plane? Stats show nothing about how you fly, or how much time you waste climbing.
While you're bringing up your stats, you spend an average of about 20minutes setting up for a kill. Maybe thats your idea of fun, but not mine.
Getting a good kill/death ratio in any perk plane isn't hard. Getting a good k/d ratio in ANY plane isn't that tough. It's all about how you fly. The question is, how much time are you willing to waste setting up to fight, vs actually fighting. If you're willing to fly 20minutes to get one or two kills, rinse, and repeat then anyone can get a good ratio.
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Originally posted by Innominate
I'm willing to bet that you don't fly the 152 and the f4u-1d in the same situations.
Getting a good kill/death ratio in any perk plane isn't hard. Getting a good k/d ratio in ANY plane isn't that tough. It's all about how you fly. The question is, how much time are you willing to waste setting up to fight, vs actually fighting. If you're willing to fly 20minutes to get one or two kills, rinse, and repeat then anyone can get a good ratio.
Believe what ya want but I fly all those sorts of planes about the same :)
edit to add more:
True, my kill per time is not way high, and that is fine with me. Most all of my fights are traditional air to air. I try to maintain a decent K/D and my ACM skills are just average (though I have been reading Shaw's book and trying to digest it). This means I don't up from capped fields much and I don't do much vulching at all (though not above it by any means, if I am lucky to find a good opportunity of course )
Still I only added the stats because you said
"If you fly it like a free plane, and don't care about losing it, you're not going to do as well in the f4u4 as you would in a free f4u, or an f4u-1c."
You can draw your own conclusions but I still beleive the enemy seeing the tag on your perk plane is not nearly so much a problem as your own awareness of it.
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Originally posted by -ammo-
F4U-4 has low-speed turning ability? LOL
I have to say this was my first reaction to that statement as well. The prop torque on the F4U-4 is so great, or modeled in AH anyway, that low speed handling is like wrestling a sleeping bear. It’s almost as bad as the F6F’s wing dip that was corrected a few patches ago.
Turning ability? I’m not sure where this comes from either. The 4 doesn’t turn any better than the 1D. Maybe people are confusing it’s roll ability but it certainly does not turn well but it can reverse well.
Although my heart lays with big blue I have to say if two equal pilots met at any altitude with the same E state, the XIV wins.
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What bugs me about the -4 is being run down by LA7's and Dora's OTD. I lost a bet and have to fly this thing for a week. Good thing the number of perks I have number in the thousands:D I have lost 10 of them. 1 was a ditch (*ran out of fuel with half a wing and landed on the base, but not the runway), 2 were disco's (arghh). The rest, I got stupid and then egressed to the deck. I was ran down by a F4u-1 flown by Acid on one instance. and more than a few, ran down by a La7 or a 190d9 with several other slower spits or whatever behind them. So, eventually I have to do that pilot stuff and I get popped by either the dora or la7 or one of the lucky rascals that were in tow. But, I must say, that it is one sweet AC. I have really enjoyed the power of that thing.
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Originally posted by Innominate
I'm curious,
Does anyone believe that the gangbang tags don't cripple the f4u4/spit14/152? Or does anyone argue that they aren't at least a big disadvantage?
I think that it is a perceived disadvantage.
If going into a situation you know that you’re going to turn heads, how is that a disadvantage if you know that from the beginning?
Minimum engagement altitude for fighters – 15K regardless of the aircraft that I’m in. Minimum engagement altitude for JABO – 10K also regardless of the aircraft I’m in. In either account I’m carrying a red icon that says “hey the enemy is here come kill me”. So what if it also says it’s a perky? That just means on my 10K dive I’ll be dragging more than 1 or 2 with me on the way out. Helps out for the next guy diving in behind me. Not to mention getting the chance to rope a conga line and pull two kills and some damage off of a hammerhead.
I fly the 4 in the same way that I fly other aircraft and end up with the same or better K/D that I run for the tour.
I think it’s a perception issue that holds hands with no one wanting to loose there points under any circumstances. Would I like the icon changed? Sure, but honestly I doubt that it would make much difference in the way that I fly it. The only thing changing the icon will do is place a false mask on someone’s inhibitions about “paying” for an aircraft.
It’s virtual war… Are you really going to be any safer with a different icon? Or are you just going to feel safer? I think the latter.
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I see a perk tag I go after it with reckless abandon.
I don't do that for a "free" plane unless it's on the 6 of a Mongrel or just about any Knight for that matter.
Regardless, you get a perk plane down low in the MA and you seriously risk losing it. With the current MA population there is almost invariably a high P-51D or other relatively fast plane with significant alt over you. If you have to break to avoid that guy with smash, the turnfighters are gonna get you.
Zip just told you how he doesn't lose often. He always has 10,000 ft below him in which to escape a dangerous situation. I will assume that Widewing flies his F4U-4 in a similar fashion, and while running a JABO attack, I'm guessing he's running about 500+ TAS when on the deck.
If you treat any plane that way (SA, have the escape route, etc) you'll have a great K/D ratio and not lose many (if any!) perk planes to enemy fighters. That's not how I fly though. I get in the furball and see if I can get in, get out and land some kills.
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Originally posted by Innominate
I'm confused.
I keep hearing "keep your e up" etc.
Right now successfully flying an f4u4 means doing the following:
Always stay above the fight, and cherry pick.
OR
Avoid any situation where the odds aren't in your favor. 1 vs 1 fights, or situations where friendlies vastly outnumber the enemies.
I know it's easy to be successfull in these planes, but to avoid getting raped, you can't fly it like you would fly any free fighter. Flying around looking for lone fighters, or hanging out 5000 feet above a fight isn't much fun for most people.
So does anyone have films of using the f4u4 in any situation where they're:
A. Not above everyone within icon range.
B. In any situation with many co-e enemies around.
A perk plane flown as if it were a free plane should have the same chance of success. Maintaining an E advantage over everyone should make things easier, but it shouldn't be the requirement it is now. Am I wrong?
It seems to me that you are suffering as the result of a fundamental flaw in your approach to flying in a combat area. I checked your stats and you are currently 11/5 in perk planes (excluding the C-Hog, which has no perk tag). Somehow, you have enabled the opposition to get to you despite the inherent advantages possessed by the F4U-4, Tempest, Ta 152 and Me 262. If you surrender the tactical advantage, you will get shot down eventually. It’s not about cherry picking or being an “alt monkey”. It’s all about situational awareness. You absolutely MUST know where every potential threat is at all times. Moreover, you need to determine their E state as well. Besides, the term “cherry picker” is usually applied to opportunistic pilots by those who demonstrate poor SA, and find themselves getting whacked by an unseen enemy. Nothing, I repeat, NOTHING is more important in this game than SA. You may have greater ACM skills than SA skills. This needs to be at least equalized, or better yet, reversed. SA will keep you out of trouble your skills cannot extract you from. That's how it works for me. I don’t care if you are flying an F-16, if your SA is miserable, eventually, you will be shot down.
I have three basic rules I fly by. Speed, Altitude and Stealth. Whenever possible, I will enter a fight with all three to my credit, regardless of what I am flying, from F4U-4, right down to the SBD. Flying a fast perk fighter, I can maintain or recover the first two with relative ease. When flying a slow dive-bomber, you can count on NOT recovering any of the above. Therefore you adjust your tactics. Fly a really slow aircraft as a fighter for a while and either your SA will improve, or you will die every sortie.
As I’ve mentioned in the past, I routinely fly the SBD as a fighter. Now, if you think that perk tags draw a crowd, fly the SBD for a while. People see that sbd5 tag and come a-runnin’ for what they assume will be an “easy” kill. Of course, they quickly discover that it was me who was hunting them! Anyway, I’m very used to drawing a crowd, so I’m fully prepared for it. But, give me a perk fighter and I will have a huge advantage.
Another point: I can’t emphasize this enough, FLY CONSERVATIVELY, ATTACK AGGRESSIVELY. Seek and acquire every possible advantage, then use your advantage to attack with maximum aggression. Any hesitation once committed can be deadly to you. However, do not confuse aggression with recklessness. They are very different.
If you find yourself lower and slower than the enemy, you have failed to adequately assess the situation prior to engaging, or you have accepted the tactical disadvantage intentionally. If the latter is the case, you will have to rely upon your ACM skills to be successful, or just simply to survive. If you don’t have that level of skill, then avoid those circumstances. However, if it is a situation that you suddenly found yourself in, you need to work on your SA a bit.
My regards,
Widewing
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I agree with you Widewing. SA is the most important. I don't know how many times I've been called a "cherry picker" or see "never saw ya", when all I did was a simple dive below lift vector, then back up when within 200 yards. They never saw me. A lot of folks have gotten into the bad habit of doing a straight 6 check, never checking high or low.
Case in point. Latnight, I'm the only bad guy over a field. 3 enemy there. In the 3 deaths that insued, only 1 even knew I was there or at least he was the only one that tried to get outta the way, lol..
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Widewing, My perk stats are bad for one simple reason, I've been treating them as if they were free, like I would fly any other fighter in the same situation. The perk fighters deserve the same chance in a furball as the free planes. They shouldn't be REQUIRED to hang out above it like they are now.
As you say, If you stay high, stay fast, you're mostly invulnerable in a perk plane. Then again, the same also applies to a dora, or p51. There are problems, first it takes a long time to climb that high, and pick up speed. Second, there is little real fighting you can do, you can bnz all day long, but unless you're lucky enough to catch a 1vs1, an extended fight is suicide.
You say, stay high, stay fast and you won't get shot down. Getting shot down isn't the issue. Getting gangbanged is. The F4U-4 or spit14 should be able to go into a furball right next to a f4u-1d or spit9 and have at LEAST the same chance of coming out alive. With the tags, an f4u4 who doesnt come in with a huge e advantage is doomed.
Even losing the plane is not an issue, the entire purpose of the perks is to spend them. Being consistantly gangbanged is NOT FUN. Arguing that people don't gangbang these planes is just silly. Yes you can avoid it by spending 10 extra minutes climbing, and hanging out above everyone else. But you shouldn't have to.
The f4u4/spit14 should not be marked as targets any differently than thier free cousins. Neither plane has a huge performance advantage over the free fighters. Both should be perked, but are unable to handle thier tags.
The 262 is the only one of the perk fighters which deserves it's tag IMO. It's the only one that can dictate ANY fight.
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Perk planes seem to be doing fine overall (tags and all)? I don't see where they are getting mass murdered or something. And - back on topic (AGAIN) overall the F4U-4 is whoopin that SP14 tail.
The F4U-4 has 501 kills and has been killed 155 times. (3.23)
The F4U-1C has 3588 kills and has been killed 1389 times. (2.58)
The F4U-1D has 7406 kills and has been killed 8307 times. (0.89)
The Spitfire Mk XIV has 335 kills and has been killed 203 times. (1.65)
The Spitfire Mk IX has 16391 kills and has been killed 14758 times. (1.11)
I am pretty hard headed and simple minded, so please excuse me - I still just don't see the problem.
edit missed this stat - they don't meet up very often it would seem:
The F4U-4 has 2 kills and has been killed 1 time against the Spitfire Mk XIV.
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The D-hog is heavily used for jabo, so it's k/d is meaningless.
The tags force pilots flying perk planes to avoid big fights, avoid situations where they'll be outnumbered. So why is it a surprise that the k/d ratios are higher? The pilots are forced to avoid large fights, and stick to easily winnable ones. Any plane perked would have it's k/d go way up, simply because it's perked.
If you perk the p51d, dora, 109g10, or la7 thier k/d's would go through the roof for the same reason. You don't see the problem with the spit14 having only a slightly better k/d ratio than it's free cousin, which is the second most used plane in the MA?
Oddly enough though, the f4u-4's k/d has gone WAY up this tour. Past tours it's k/d has been well behind the f4u-1c.
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I have almost 20% of the total kills for the f4U-4 for this tour up to this point. When I lose a few more of those things the K/D ratio will come back down to normal:D
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Originally posted by -ammo-
When I lose a few more of those things the K/D ratio will come back down to normal:D
need some help?
:D
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Originally posted by Shane
need some help?
:D
I think you are already responsible for one of those, you LA7 dweeb:) CYA in the arena.
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Originally posted by -ammo-
I have almost 20% of the total kills for the f4U-4 for this tour up to this point. When I lose a few more of those things the K/D ratio will come back down to normal:D
Come on man, you and your stupid bet are hurting my argument! :D
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we got another bet now on the Bama vs AU game. He took AU, but this time its only one days worth of punishment (unlike the full 7 days for me).
Curly is ruthless.
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Originally posted by -ammo-
I think you are already responsible for one of those, you LA7 dweeb:) CYA in the arena.
no, no... you're supposed to come back with...
"a freeking uber la7 ran me down on the deck after i had initally pulled away. perk the la7!!" :D
it was a pleasent surprise to see the distance slowly closing and you too far from help or base. did you run out of wep, or...??
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Originally posted by Shane
it was a pleasent surprise to see the distance slowly closing and you too far from help or base. did you run out of wep, or...??
With wep, assuming both planes can get down under 1000feet, the la7 is about 3mph faster. The la7 gains a much bigger speed advantage above 1500feet or so. Perk it. :D
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Originally posted by Shane
no, no... you're supposed to come back with...
"a freeking uber la7 ran me down on the deck after i had initally pulled away. perk the la7!!" :D
it was a pleasent surprise to see the distance slowly closing and you too far from help or base. did you run out of wep, or...??
naa, no need for all that.
I ahve been run down by La&'s all week. Its just faster, no doubt about it. OTD anyway. Heres the kicker, the F4U4 will do 370 at sea level but you better have a bunch of altitude to dive to the deck with. It seems to have a "hump" of around 355 that it will not accelrate past, at least it I havent seen it. Where the la7 will just keep accelerating on up to its top speed no problem. but, its muych lighter and supposed to do that. My other problem at low alt is the stinking dora, pretty much identical situations. I target those two AC first when I enter the melee. Ponies too, but they dont accelrate as well as I do. I can get away from a bad situation with them.
Nope, I didnt run out of WEP, that was all the AC could give me. Wanna see a foilm af a f4U-1 running me down?
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You wanna know why the F4U-4 doesn't fly so well?
(http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/f4u4t.jpg)
(http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/f4u4i.jpg)
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Or even worse....
(http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/F4U4CP.jpg)
(http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/F4U4CC.jpg)
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Punt
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what am I looking for? climb discrepancies or speed discrepancies? Because to me, the speed charts from HTC look spot on with what you've shown.
It passes 400mph at just over 10,000 under WEP and 15,000 under military on both charts. Other alts and speeds seem to match up as well.
The climbs look shortchanged on the HTC graphs though, and slightly different curves as well.
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Originally posted by Nifty
what am I looking for? climb discrepancies or speed discrepancies? Because to me, the speed charts from HTC look spot on with what you've shown.
Climb rate is off by some 500feet per minute. The curves are pretty close, just offset by about 500feet per minute.
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Exactly,
Climb is way off.
It is not so much the initial climb but the sustained climb under 20K that really bugs me.
For 50 perkies anyway.