Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Soviet on October 13, 2002, 11:57:33 AM
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It's now over 180 people dead. Very sad :(
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/10/13/bali.blast/index.html
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I've got some friends backpacking down there, hope they're all right.
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Death toll is at 214 and rising.
WTG Terrorists, the US support for war is shakey in some countries (like NZ, Aussie, France, UK). You've now just added fuel to the fire :) , destroyed the tourist economy in Bali, and most likely will fuel the hatred for muslims (just as a terrorist uses a broad brush to select targets for his bombing people here will use a broad brush when associating muslims with this).
Smart move!
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Originally posted by Dowding
I've got some friends backpacking down there, hope they're all right.
Got friends there as well....
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news said the place that was bombed is a tourist spot for Aussies
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if you're a Kiwi or an Aussie you've ALWAYS got mates in Bali. Its one of the most popular tourist spots in the region.
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I know 3 guys out there, 1 of them is working in the same town. Heard he was OK yesterday thank god.
Spineless utter bastards who did this deserve everything they get.
Gatso
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Its a real tragedy my deepest sympathies to the families.
.. wtf is wrong with these idiots? Killing civilians only tends to piss off the populace not make them flock to your cause.
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Vulcan,i agree with both of your post's,fortunately no-one i know was there at the time,the loss of so many Aussies at once is bound to kick the government here into gear,i hope.
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Two Americans reported dead now.
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Originally posted by Krusher
.. wtf is wrong with these idiots? Killing civilians only tends to piss off the populace not make them flock to your cause.
what cause?
the terrorists are animals that need to be destroyed, not talked to, make a deal, understand ..... DESTROY, like you would a rabid dog.
cause .. an excuse for MURDER!
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Death toll is at 214 and rising.
WTG Terrorists, the US support for war is shakey in some countries (like NZ, Aussie, France, UK). You've now just added fuel to the fire :) , destroyed the tourist economy in Bali, and most likely will fuel the hatred for muslims (just as a terrorist uses a broad brush to select targets for his bombing people here will use a broad brush when associating muslims with this).
Smart move!
Bingo. Nothing like toejamting in the dish you eat out of.
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Ripsnort: Bingo. Nothing like toejamting in the dish you eat out of.
Did it seem to you that Taliban had been that much interested in expanding Afghanistan's tourist economy or even increased material well-being of the populace?
If the Indonesian militant fundamentalists wanted to increase inflow of corrupting, fornicating, night-club-attending, western-culure contaminating tourists into their country, blowing up a bunch of them indeed does not seem like a right move.
But somehow I believe the terrorists got exactly the effect they desired - less foreign tourists in their country and fewer indonesians attending nightclubs.
Those poor dumb australians and other victims were told that muslim fundamentalists resent everything western - people, religion, culture, customs, etc.
They were also told by politicians that people around the world just do not like americans because americans are arrogant, greedy, pushy, exploitative, pro-israeli and our president is a modern-day Hitler and while americans may or even should be killed, the other liberal westerners are not in danger, even in a country which just engaged in mini-xenocide of their own (remember that East Timor thingy?).
I guess now we know who was right.
In my view the bomb blasts that killed them were just symptoms. The real cause of their death was stupidity, ignorance and wishfull thinking.
If you want to visit a muslim country and have fun there, join the Marines. You may not get to enjoy as many underage asian prostitutes, but at least you will be the one doing most of the blowing up...
miko
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Vicious circle: Less tourists means more poverty, less education for the host country. More probability of easy child "re-education" programs by extremists induced to get more of the population to hate the west at a young age.
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Right on spot Rip !
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miko
the point is ppl shouldn't have to worry about being blown to bits when they visit a night club in any country should they?
murderous bastards ... hunt them down and slay them like the chicken toejam dogs they are
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Eagler,
In ideal world they should not. But in real world we have to be carefull where we walk - even in Brooklyn!
Those indonesians seem like a rough bunch. They apparently have some grudge again foreigners - tourists and australians especially.
Did you know that "...Indonesian government officials drove farmers in Bali to hand over their land to a new 120-hectare hotel and golf resort by shutting off the irrigation to their fields"?
Care to try a web search on "australian" and "child sex tourism"? I did - and it will have to be a while till my revolt wears off.
Care to try the same search but without "australian"? You will get mostly the same results. What the heck is wrong with that country - Australia? Pedophilia as major national export?
miko
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Isn't that a Sterotyper's paint brush your using Miko?
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Originally posted by Eagler
murderous bastards ... hunt them down and slay them like the chicken toejam dogs they are
I guess you better get started eh?
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Miko,
Either that is some type of extra stinky bait, or you are trying to justify the murder of 200+ innocent vacationers. Which is it sir?
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One of our squadmates buddies was one of the casualties.
Greedz, may god be with you in these trying times.
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Originally posted by miko2d
Ripsnort: Bingo. Nothing like toejamting in the dish you eat out of.
Did it seem to you that Taliban had been that much interested in expanding Afghanistan's tourist economy or even increased material well-being of the populace?
If the Indonesian militant fundamentalists wanted to increase inflow of corrupting, fornicating, night-club-attending, western-culure contaminating tourists into their country, blowing up a bunch of them indeed does not seem like a right move.
But somehow I believe the terrorists got exactly the effect they desired - less foreign tourists in their country and fewer indonesians attending nightclubs.
Those poor dumb australians and other victims were told that muslim fundamentalists resent everything western - people, religion, culture, customs, etc.
They were also told by politicians that people around the world just do not like americans because americans are arrogant, greedy, pushy, exploitative, pro-israeli and our president is a modern-day Hitler and while americans may or even should be killed, the other liberal westerners are not in danger, even in a country which just engaged in mini-xenocide of their own (remember that East Timor thingy?).
I guess now we know who was right.
In my view the bomb blasts that killed them were just symptoms. The real cause of their death was stupidity, ignorance and wishfull thinking.
If you want to visit a muslim country and have fun there, join the Marines. You may not get to enjoy as many underage asian prostitutes, but at least you will be the one doing most of the blowing up...
miko
Eagler,
In ideal world they should not. But in real world we have to be carefull where we walk - even in Brooklyn!
Those indonesians seem like a rough bunch. They apparently have some grudge again foreigners - tourists and australians especially.
Did you know that "...Indonesian government officials drove farmers in Bali to hand over their land to a new 120-hectare hotel and golf resort by shutting off the irrigation to their fields"?
Care to try a web search on "australian" and "child sex tourism"? I did - and it will have to be a while till my revolt wears off.
Care to try the same search but without "australian"? You will get mostly the same results. What the heck is wrong with that country - Australia? Pedophilia as major national export?
miko
Your a diddlying idiot
Tronsky
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Ripsnort: Isn't that a Sterotyper's paint brush your using Miko?
midnight Target: Miko, Either that is some type of extra stinky bait, or you are trying to justify the murder of 200+ innocent vacationers.
Nothing of a sort, guys. This post was just a continuation of my previous post in the same thread.
What I ment was that if you are a westerner and go on a vacation to a muslim country with corrupt authoritarian government and strong militant muslim fundamantalist movement that just had a mini-xenocide and is still in the midst of US-flag burning and Al-Qaida donations drive, and on a list of countries declared unsafe for visitors by US Department of State and you visit places that are anathema to local backward cuture built on a land taken away from local peasants and which are frequented by australian pedophiles, you are putting your life at risk.
I am not trying to justify murder - just explain it as in "this is why it was likely to happen, this is why it is likely to happen again, it is not fair but please, do not go whoring or sightseeing to Indonesia".
I am even not anti-australian. I suspect that the problem of australian sex-tourism is so wide-known because australians have guts to acknowlege it and go after the offenders.
Your a diddlying idiot
Apparently I am not doing a very good job...
miko
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Originally posted by Thrawn
I guess you better get started eh?
oh great white northern one, your suggestion pls .. import them into Canada maybe, your home town, they can be your neighbors? :rolleyes:
I say hunt them down and exterminate them before they infect the rest of the half brain dead world
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On the idea that the attack will hurt tourism and the economy of the affected country. Please keep in mind that the terrorists may be operating on the assumption that their perfect world is related to the talibans. In other words a 7th century cesspool. You don't need anything over a survival eco0nomy for that. In fact dropping touirism makes their way of life easier as there is no "contamination" of the local populace. They won't see what life is like an a industrialized civilized country and won't know what they are missing.
Dropping tourism is a goal, not a side effect.
I agree that they need to be stopped. This is being made a religious war but the ones claiming "persecution" are the ones making it a religious justification.
Terrorist are toejam. They need to be flushed.
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If the Washington Sniper reads the AH BBS I got $100 here for Miko's head.
Anyone else in?
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Originally posted by Vulcan
If the Washington Sniper reads the AH BBS I got $100 here for Miko's head.
Anyone else in?
Nice one Vulcan - that doesn't sound exactly like the sort of idiotic hate-mongering "kill anyone whose opinion we don't agree with" mentality that fuels terrorism or anything. :rolleyes:
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-dead-: Nice one Vulcan - that doesn't sound exactly like the sort of idiotic hate-mongering "kill anyone whose opinion we don't agree with" mentality that fuels terrorism or anything. :rolleyes:
Be carefull, -dead-, if you imply that there is terrorism in Washington making the area unsafe for tourists, Vulcan will probably offer $100 to indonesian bombers for your head...
miko
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I'd like to concur with Tronski's sentiments.
In my view the bomb blasts that killed them were just symptoms. The real cause of their death was stupidity, ignorance and wishfull thinking.
Miko - you are a diddlying idiot. You are scum.
I still haven't heard from my friends back-packing out there. They were passing through Bali on their way to Australia.
If you want to visit a muslim country and have fun there, join the Marines. You may not get to enjoy as many underage asian prostitutes, but at least you will be the one doing most of the blowing up...
Miko - you are a diddlying idiot. You are scum.
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Miko's Vacationers Checklist:
1. Muslim country? Yes or No? If no proceed to Airport, if Yes see item 2.
2. Corrupt authoritarian government? (might be OK if we're talking Singapore, go to #3)
3. Strong militant muslim fundamantalist movement? (hard to define strong?.. goto #4)
4. Just had a mini-xenocide? This one is gonna be tough. Xenocide doesn't seem to be a recognized word in the M-W dictionary, or any other on line. But since xenobiology is the study of (possible) life on other planets I must assume that xenocide refers to the murder of aliens. Tough to tell whether they killed mini-aliens or killed just a few aliens. I say skip to number 5.
5. US flags being burned? Take a note here... if you look American you will be targeted. so if you are Aussie, make sure you don't LOOK American. Everyone knows that Americans can be narrowed down to just a few hundred native nationalities. If US flags have been burned make sure you don't fit into any of the "US-type Nationalities". goto 6.
6. Al-Qaida donations drive? This may or may not be on the local PBS station... check before bording.
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Originally posted by miko2d
In my view the bomb blasts that killed them were just symptoms. The real cause of their death was stupidity, ignorance and wishfull thinking.
If you want to visit a muslim country and have fun there, join the Marines. You may not get to enjoy as many underage asian prostitutes, but at least you will be the one doing most of the blowing up...miko
Because I have just classed you as the worlds biggest F&**ing idiot, I shall refrain from bothering with the reply I wish to present you.
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I'm not talking about hate-mongering, I'm talking about cutting some scum out of the gene-pool.
So -dead-, you obviously thought the suicide flights into the World Trade Center were justified too?
Originally posted by -dead-
Nice one Vulcan - that doesn't sound exactly like the sort of idiotic hate-mongering "kill anyone whose opinion we don't agree with" mentality that fuels terrorism or anything. :rolleyes:
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I'm not talking about hate-mongering, I'm talking about cutting some scum out of the gene-pool.
You say tomato...
So -dead-, you obviously thought the suicide flights into the World Trade Center were justified too?
Which bit of the last post i made leads you to suspect that I do? I was merely pointing out that your attitude of "I disagree strongly with miko, so I want him dead" seems analogous to the terrorists "I disagree strongly with the USA, so I want them all dead" line. I think both are equally unjustified and idiotic, and I said so.
I also disagree with miko on this point, but unlike you, the Ayatollah Khomeini, or many terrorist groups, I would not call for a person's death just because I disagree with them.
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Before 14OCT, the U.S. State Department listed Indonesia:
Indonesia is experiencing a major political transition, and unrest and violence can erupt with little forewarning anywhere in the country. Due to the continuing threat of serious violence, American citizens should avoid all travel to the regions of Aceh, Irian Jaya (also known as West Papua), the Moluccas, Central Sulawesi and West Timor. All travel by U.S. and other foreign government officials to Aceh, Irian Jaya and the Moluccas (provinces of North Maluku and Maluku) has been restricted by the Indonesian government because of security concerns. Private Americans should adhere to these same restrictions. Travelers should consult the most recent Public Announcement or Travel Warning for Indonesia for updated information on travel within the country. Public Announcements and Travel Warnings can be found on the Bureau of Consular Affairs' home page at http://travel.state.gov/. American citizens in all parts of Indonesia should exercise prudence, remain vigilant and avoid demonstrations and other situations that could turn violent.
One noted exception to the rest of the country was Bali:
The tourist destination of Bali has been largely free of the disturbances seen in other parts of Indonesia. All tourist facilities are operating normally, and to date foreigners have not been the specific target of any group.
Still... I'd think twice before going anywhere in Indonesia.
If you're going to travel abroad, best to check for a current advisory:
http://travel.state.gov/travel_warnings.html#i
Miko does make a good point. The third world is a dangerous place to travel lightly... especially if you're white anglo saxon.
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I don't 'disagree strongly' with him - that is giving him way to much credit. I think hes a mental retard who has no value to offer the human race.
Hes not putting forward any sound or valid argument, he has no idea of what hes talking about, he also exhibits a complete lack of knowledge of the region, and seems keen to validate this massacre. I'm just saying the morons like him (ie morons who try to justify the murder of innocents) should be removed from the gene-pool. Just like I think any moron that tried to justify sept 11 should be removed from the gene pool too.
I think there'd be a few Aussies who agree with me too.
Originally posted by -dead-
Which bit of the last post i made leads you to suspect that I do? I was merely pointing out that your attitude of "I disagree strongly with miko, so I want him dead" seems analogous to the terrorists "I disagree strongly with the USA, so I want them all dead" line. I think both are equally unjustified and idiotic, and I said so.
I also disagree with miko on this point, but unlike you, the Ayatollah Khomeini, or many terrorist groups, I would not call for a person's death just because I disagree with them.
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Obviously not everyone grasps a difference between "justify" and "explain" or "predict".
I stated the reasons why Indonesia is not a safe place for vacationing westerners. More than a year ago US Department of State issued a warning to that same effect. Neither me or US Department of State is trying to justify what happened.
-dead-, you mentioned you disagree with me "on this point". Which one is that you disagre and why - I'd like to hear a reasonable opinion. I was pretty sure I was stating an obvious in my post.
I do disapprove of people from democratic countries supporting corrupt regimes and hostile cultures which declared war on our values - whether it's americans buying saudi oil, canadians buying cuban sigars or australians buying indonesian prostututes.
There is a war that was declared on us and is going on for all the attempts to ignore it.
Dowding: I still haven't heard from my friends back-packing out there. They were passing through Bali on their way to Australia.
Miko - you are a diddlying idiot. You are scum.
-tronski-: Got friends there as well. Your a diddlying idiot
Idiot or not, unlike you two, I actually helped prevent my friend from going to Indonesia last year - despite all the reassurances of safety and friendliness. So I did not have to worry about his safety.
miko
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this is the problem with your posts in this thread, you make it sound like EVERY one of the tourist killed were there to have kid sex, that it was THEIR fault they were murdered
you come off like a sick and twisted perv in the above posts
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Originally posted by Eagler
you come off like a sick and twisted perv in the above posts
No he doesn't. In fact he says that he says that these acts are reprehensible.
BTW. Anyone booking a trip to Iraq? Why not? If your friends were hurt in the explosion then I'm sorry. But it wasn't a bright move taking a trip there.
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Yeah, should have just stayed home and got drunk, right Thrawn? Just like the terrorists want ya, cowering in the corner. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Yeah, should have just stayed home and got drunk, right Thrawn? Just like the terrorists want ya, cowering in the corner. :rolleyes:
Oh right, so I guess you plan on taking your family to Kuait or Bali this year?
We are talking about personal responisbity here. Is it the victims fault that they got blown up? No. Could they have not been there? Yes. It's a dangerous place for christ sake. But I'm sure you and your family will have a good time.
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Did you miss this part?
The tourist destination of Bali has been largely free of the disturbances seen in other parts of
Indonesia. All tourist facilities are operating normally, and to date foreigners have not been the
specific target of any group.
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Originally posted by Eagler
this is the problem with your posts in this thread, you make it sound like EVERY one of the tourist killed were there to have kid sex, that it was THEIR fault they were murdered
you come off like a sick and twisted perv in the above posts
I am sorry people got that impression. I obviously did not mean every australian or even significant part of them are pedophiles. I am sure most of the australian tourists are not looking for sex and of those few that do most abide with australian government mandated age of 16 (which would still make them rapists and child-molesters according to our american culture and law).
Anyway, sex is not the only thing that clashes with backward muslim culture there - the style of clothing, intermingling of men and women, alcohol, music, etc. are likely to provoke hostility from militants.
People went into an area with "Danger" signs all over the place for no better reason than to have a party and risked their lives in the process. If they knew all the odds and though it worth it, fine - their decision.
If they were not informed of dangers - then they were ignorant or misled by their friends or travel agents.
miko
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Piss off, Thrawn. He was basically slagging off friends of mine (whose fate at that time was unknown to me) and hinting they were only there for sex tourism! He's a tit of the highest order.
He'll be bringing out his 'Bell Curve' bollocks next, trying to prove they were intellectually inferior or something. He's a loon.
BTW, I don't give a flying f*** about your 20/20 hindsight "They shouldn't have been there' moralising. It would have been small comfort should anything have happened to them.
miko2d - does the thought of sex with children give you a rise? You seem to be very stuck on this subject, considering it has nothing to do with the bombing...
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Originally posted by miko2d
People went into an area with "Danger" signs all over the place for no better reason than to have a party and risked their lives in the process. If they knew all the odds and though it worth it, fine - their decision.
If they were not informed of dangers - then they were ignorant or misled by their friends or travel agents.
miko
So, NYC and DC are very dangerous places today, is it the fault of Victim #11 at Home Depot, or the 3,000 in the WTC that they were at the wrong place at the wrong time?
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Ripsnort: Just like the terrorists want ya, cowering in the corner. :rolleyes:
We have not secured our homeland for our families and democratic countries for our friends from the threat of terror. Or our oil supplies.
I would not spend a penny of my taxes or risk the life of a single american soldier to ensure the "right" of an australian tourist to have a party in a muslim country.
The terrorists want us out of their countries? Fine. Let them rot.
Did you miss this part?: The tourist destination of Bali has been largely free of the disturbances seen in other parts of Indonesia. All tourist facilities are operating normally, and to date foreigners have not been the specific target of any group.
So if you were a terrorist, where would you strike? I guess they did not miss that part either.
Thrawn: Oh right, so I guess you plan on taking your family to Kuwait or Bali this year?
I am not sure about Kuwait, but travel to Bali is going to be a bargain from now on. Cheap airfares, no owercrowding in the hotels or restorants, basement prices, attentive staff. Let's have the next AH conventon there!
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d
I am sorry people got that impression. I obviously did not mean every australian or even significant part of them are pedophiles. I am sure most of the australian tourists are not looking for sex and of those few that do most abide with australian government mandated age of 16 (which would still make them rapists and child-molesters according to our american culture and law).
Anyway, sex is not the only thing that clashes with backward muslim culture there - the style of clothing, intermingling of men and women, alcohol, music, etc. are likely to provoke hostility from militants.
People went into an area with "Danger" signs all over the place for no better reason than to have a party and risked their lives in the process. If they knew all the odds and though it worth it, fine - their decision.
If they were not informed of dangers - then they were ignorant or misled by their friends or travel agents.
miko
You're the ignorant one you dumb diddly
You've got absoutley no idea what the diddly your talking about so why don't you shut your diddlying face and keep surfing for child sex tours...cause thats all you you seem to know or care about.
Tronsky
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What an arse
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Originally posted by miko2d
-dead-, you mentioned you disagree with me "on this point". Which one is that you disagre and why - I'd like to hear a reasonable opinion. I was pretty sure I was stating an obvious in my post.
Well OK - if I can drag you away from typing the word "sex" into your search engine for a minute - try this combo: "Bali religion".
You'll find that Bali is a Hindu[/B] island, not, as you supposed a muslim island. Sure it's an understandable mistake to make if you don't know anything about Bali: Indonesia is muslim, Bali is in Indonesia, therefore Bali is muslim. However it's a false assumption. So the generalizations that follow on that assumption - ie local fundamentalist islamic populace are hostile to all the filthy Westerners perverting the good muslim Balinese with "clothing, the intermingling of men and women, alcohol, music, etc. " is wildly off the mark - because they're almost all Hindus.
Next we really have to consider that as of yet, we have no idea who planted the bomb - so jumping to the conclusion that it was al Qaeda or islamic extremists or whoever is pure speculation.
Finally the whole "Australians are just there for the child sex - they were just asking for trouble" insinuation is not just plain old fashioned incendiary trolling, but also - given the timing and the post's topic - in extremely poor taste, unnecessary and just plain rude.
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Now you're getting it -dead-
As I said, Miko has no clue what hes talking about. Miko, clean up you're own back yard first, just because a retard can type "BALI" and "AUSTRALIAN" into google doesn't make you an expert on the region.
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2 Americans were among the casualties also. Do we presume they were there for anything other than an enjoyable holiday?
Do were presume they were stupid morons for daring to enjoy a holiday in a peaceful location that has never been known for anti-western sentiment or terrorist activity?
Indonesia is a big place. Its not one tiny island stuck out in the middle of the boonies. It consists of 2 main religions. The peaceful one is in Bali.
The girl I know quite well from work, a pretty blond who went over to Bali after fulfilling a UN Peace Keeping Tour in East Timor suffered extensive burns and shrapnel wounding to her body.
Is she one of your idiots?
The Footy teams that went over there after a long season to unwind to come back with many of their mates still missing presumed dead. Are they all stupid?
Bali has always been a traditionally peaceful place where Australian tourists in particular are highly sought after as their entire Tourism economy depends upon us.
Is New York or any other City where muggings and murder are sensationised through the media all places complete with morons who choose to live there?
Is the complete population of Washington DC of sub par IQ for not getting the hell out of there whilst your sniping killer randomly attacks at will?
It is obvious Miko that you know nothing of Bali, the Australian people and nothing about the Balinese.
Australians are well aware of the dangers of Indonesia. We know it through East Timor. As a close neighbour and for many a year considered a very real threat on our Doorstep, Australians are not the idiots you presume us to be.
Your very own security assessment of the region and Intelligence regarding a Terrorist incident pointed in a completely different direction with no reference whatsoever to Bali. The Brits got it. The Canucks got it and we got it. All 4 countries issued statements through their Foriegn Affairs departments to travellers regarding travel in Indonesia.
Yet, US, Brit and Australian/Kiwi tourists were there in large numbers. Why?
Because NOONE based on their knowledge of Bali and its people and its relationship with the rest of Indonesia anticipated it as the source of an attack.
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Be careful now, Spook, miko will get one of his bell curves out and try to prove your friend was stupid for getting herself injured.
I hope she's ok, mate, and recovers quickly. Fortunately, my friends left Bali 2 weeks ago and are already in Oz.
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Thank you very much, -dead-.
I knew that Indonesia had considerable hindu constituency, but I did not know that Bali was the hindu part. That makes it easier to understand why so many western tourists visit it. Knowing that would still not have made me feel easy about letting my friends go there - quite the opposite - but I can see how some people might have felt more secure there.
I wish more people would take a few minutes to post usefull information here rather than just declaring someone's ignorance but keeping the knowlege to themselves.
Of course upon further consideration it may seem that even the hindu-part would be quite dangerous in current times - I am sure atrocities recently perpetrated by hindus and muslims against each other in India and threat of war with Pakistan over Kashmir cause a lot of tension between hindu and muslims everywhere. So muslim fundamantalists in Indonesia would be doubly motivated to strike the westerners and hindus who attract those westerners into their country.
Obviously I am not an expert on Indonesia and never claimed to be one. I am sure that country may surprise even people that do claim to be experts - like those australian tourists who thought themselves safe.
I do have some knowlege of indonesian fundamantalists even besides books and Internet. As a rare student to bring (barely) usable command of English language from the soviet school system, I once conversed with an indonesian captive in Afghanistan who's own knowlege of English bough him a few extra, if painfull, hours of life. It would seem to me that a person so determined as to travel to Afghanistan, Kosovo or Chechnya would have no problem going to another province of his own country, even if hindu-populated, to get a shot at his 72 virgins.
As for australians, I applogise for insensitive remarks. I do respect australians as a people no less than I respect other peoples - americans, russians, germans, canadians, jews, arabs - which actually means "not much", but I believe that business of bundling individuals into "nations" is way overrated anyway.
Sp00k, your statement "Is New York or any other City where muggings and murder ... complete with morons who choose to live there?" kind of indicates that you are pretty ignorant of New York City - may be even more than I am of Bali.
Even assuming that attraction of jobs and homes and relatives, friends and neighbours is worth risking our lives no more than a prospect of good recreation, we, New Yorkers, are not morons who refuse to "move out" despite the danger. Half of us are immigrants who did get off our asses, did move out, changed our lives and moved to New York to avoid living in worse places - and not just for New York recreational facilities. We are collecting resources and getting acclimatised to New York relative safety and half-hearted socialism before moving to even safer and preferably less socialist suburbs and states - as to avoid a complete cultural shock.
Meanwhile we are very carefull where we drive or walk even in our own city - despite huge improvement in safety under Giuliani mayorship. Being americans, many of us are very carefull visiting other countries - especially those on the US government's list of dangerous destinations.
miko
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I wish more people would take a few minutes to post usefull information here rather than just declaring someone's ignorance but keeping the knowlege to themselves.
Yes, and I wish some people would take a few minutes to think before they post ignorant, insensitive and down right offensive crap across these boards. You posted like you were the world's authority on Bali and had great experience of the people who went there.
Not to mention the child sex industry.
It was you who made yourself look an idiotic loon, so don't try and displace any 'blame' onto those that do actually know what they are talking about.
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Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
Yes, and I wish some people would take a few minutes to think before they post ignorant, insensitive and down right offensive crap across these boards.
"Yeah, let's run a sweepstake on who gets to go die in some faraway land for no particular reason at all."
"I'm constantly amazed by the fascist undertones in your rhetoric, Grunherz. Unanimity of thought, the view that it is possible to hold incorrect beliefs, pathological fear of anything left-leaning - it's really quite alarming to observe someone airing their neuroses in public.Do I need to even pass comment? Pathetic?
Imbecilic? Stupid? All succinctly describe that particular snipe."
"People who wear their ignorance as a badge on their shoulder are two-a-penny on this board."
Hello Pot!
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Sorry I missed some of this. -dead- beat me to it, was gonna mention the Hindu thing.
One local man (Orange County California) was killed. Bali is a surf destination for the hard core surfer types around here, and there are a lot of those. Probably the same draw for the Aussies.
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lol Ripsnort. I'm quite surprised you went to all that trouble.
Care to put those quotes in the context within which they were posted? No? I didn't think so. It would kind of lessen their impact...
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Dowding: Yes, and I wish some people would take a few minutes to think before they post ignorant, insensitive and down right offensive crap across these boards.
Not to mention the child sex industry.
It was you who made yourself look an idiotic loon, so don't try and displace any 'blame' onto those that do actually know what they are talking about.
Everyone makes mistakes. I once taktlessly posted a message about the death tax (inheritance tax) after 9/11 - that was a big issue to me not wanting to profit from the people's misery. To my surprise that was met with outrage on this board as inappropriate at the time, so I appologised.
Sex tourism is an issue and while only a tiny minority of western tourists are such perverts, you can be sure that enemy propaganda zeroes in on them trying to inflame muslims against westerners. I did state that I never believed australians more guilty but just more proactive fighting the filth and I should not have brough that up at all here. Again, I am sorry.
Dowding: You posted like you were the world's authority on Bali and had great experience of the people who went there.
Frankly, I expected replies like "miko, you are stating the obvious", or "miko, it's easy to have 20/20 vision in hindsight", or "of course Bali was dangerous, but where were you before it happened with warnings rather than post-factum explanations" or something along those lines.
To which I would have replied that even without more than a cursory knowlege of Bali's existence I did insist on my friend not going to Indonesia (despite claims of safety) last year - and would have warned each of 200 victims had they been my friends.
Those who had to go to Indonesia for some more pressing reason than entertainment, I would have told to stay away from western crowds, hotel lobbies, embassies and other attack magnets.
Instead I find myself ridiculed as ignorant by self-proclaimed experts explaining why Bali was safe! Hello, people! Bali is not safe! Bali has not been safe for quite a while! There just was a huge explosion there - two in fact. 200+ dead! It did not suddenly become unsafe after the explosions - it was more unsafe the day before they occured or the year before they occured - it became unsafe years ago when some righteous militant decided that Bali was a nice juicy target to blow up. If it did not blow up last week, it would have blown up this week or the next one. Different people would have died but in about the same numbers.
Danger is not what you are aware of or choose to ignore. It kind of exists objectively regardless of your ignorance of it.
What did it matter that Bali was populated by hindus of which fact I shamefully was not aware? It did not make it safe. Muslim terrorists attack places where westerners are, where they feel safe - New York included, not where they are already scared out of.
I did spend considerable effort and money bringing people from unsafe spots to safer ones. I am also on record on this board insisting that all israelis and palestinians who want to live in peace should be granted US visas - rather than wishing for their right to "historical homeland" or "safe recreation in palestine". I do offer a pair of gas masks to my friends going to Manhattan - if only to remind them of danger.
Anyway, I have a problem with a concept "we are in a low-intencity war" or "it's not a war - just terrorism" or "they declared war on us but we will just ignore it", or "the enemy is stupid (they are not) and covardly (they are not) or camel-diddlying goatherds (some have Ph.D.s) and we do not have to take precautions" or "I am not in danger because I am around the corner from hostilities". Or the classic one "If we change our lives and take precautions, we let terrorists win". If you got yourself killed by a terrorist you've let terrorist win!
You, bloody hyppocrites - Dowding, Spook, -tronski-, etc. - the people who perished there may have well been aware of risks and chose to brave them or they may have been ignorant. Not a big deal - we often knowingly risk our lifes in recreational pursuits and skimp on time in library.
But if you did not try to warn them because you were ignorant of danger or did not care or underestimated it - you failed your friends and now are venting your frustration on me for mentioning sex or being undertutored in geography.
The ignorance and wishfull thinking that killed them to which I referred in my post was not theirs but yours and your governments!
I can think of no more idiotic or hyppocrytial remarks than your "western people should not be afraid of being blown up in a night club in a third world country" - it's only valid if it's you who are braving the danger, not when you are sending your hapless "mates" to do so wishing "have a good time" rather than "stay home" or at least "try not to get killed"!
miko
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Wow. I think that's the first time I've seen him pissed off.
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miko
you are way off in left field blaming the dead for their deaths :rolleyes:
guess everyone who worked in the WTC's should have called in sick on the morning of 9/11 eh? I mean NY is a dangerous place, you never know when some nutbag will hijack & fly a plane into one of those tall buildings :rolleyes:
I don't think the innocents killed were getting an extra "thrill" thinking they were playing with fire while in that nightclub. A bombing was the farthest thing from their mind.
you are really out there on this one...
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Originally posted by Eagler
I don't think the innocents killed were getting an extra "thrill" thinking they were playing with fire while in that nightclub. A bombing was the farthest thing from their mind.
It shouldn't have been the farthest thing from their mind. Indonesia is a dangerous place. I don't know if the Australian government posts travel advisories, but the U.S. does, and Indonesia is most certainly on the list.
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Reported today that that CIA reported 24 hours to our Gvo't that in turn reported to the Indonesians in advance of the Bali bombing that a possible Al Q strike was imminent.
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FWIW, I got the intent of what miko posted. I have been overseas in a potentially hostile area. You should assume that being a westerner in a non western "state" is anything but a safe bet. Westerners, especially Americans are now prime targets. Anyone that looks like a westerner or better yet an American is likely to be targeted in any country that has a significant number of groups dedicated to killing Americans. No matter what political persuasion you profess, sympathies or whatever you are a target of these terrorists. As has been posted earlier, if you go to a country listed as a risk or hazardous area you shoud ASSUME you could be targeted and killed / kidnapped.
Think for a minute, after Pearl was kidnapped, does ANYONE think that the Philipenes is a safe place for a westerner / non muslim to visit? If you do then you are living a fantasy. The same for Kuwait, Saudi, Isreal, Somalia and so on. If there is a significant muslim population you had better assume that there are al queda and other muslim extremists in the area. They do not like Americans or westerners in general. You are a target of oportunity if you go into their area of operation.
That is all Miko was saying. It just didn't come out that way for several of you.
I think the Bali bombers and other terrorist are a blight on the earth and should be eradicated. Until we do take care of that there will be more killings of innocents and tourists as they are incapable of meeting us on a military footing. The attack what they think they can get away with like any coward.
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Miko, you just don't get it. Who says Bali wasn't safe?
Show me the statistics dickhead or STFU. Even the US travel advisory notes Bali is unaffected by issues elsewhere in Indonesia (which is a big country BTW, not just some little tinpot island).
As for the pedophiles, look a little closer to home. Take a long close look at the American Foreign Service, and the Christian Aid Agencies.
When you make such rediculous uninformed and opinionated comments about a region you exhibit little understanding of expect to be flamed - especially when those comments mock people so innocent who have perished.
I will not stand by while some amazinhunk tries to look like a smartarse at the expense of others deaths, especially when its so close to home.
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Ripsnort: So, NYC and DC are very dangerous places today, is it the fault of Victim #11 at Home Depot, or the 3,000 in the WTC that they were at the wrong place at the wrong time?
You quoted my statement but apparently failed to read it carefully. Here it is again, expanded, with highlight that hopefully answeres your question to your satisfaction:
"People went into an area with "Danger" signs all over the place for no better reason than to have a party and risked their lives in the process."
That kind of implies that I admit existence of good reasons for facing danger. Doing one's duty or staying with one's family in on's own homeland are such in my opinion.
Dowding: miko2d - does the thought of sex with children give you a rise? You seem to be very stuck on this subject
So my strongly speaking against it indicates my involvement in it? What school of psychology is that? Aren't you afraid that people will reverse everything you say and turn it against you? Come on! I posted enough controversial stuff worth arguing against to make it unnessary to manufacture one.
BTW, statistics does not apply to individual cases - only representative populations. Can't rely on them either to assess intelligence of individual person nor likelihood of a terrorist attack. Have to use fundamental data for that.
Eagler: miko
you are way off in left field blaming the dead for their deaths
I am sorry if you've got such an impression. I am blaming the terrorists for their deaths - like everybody else does. I am also blaming their surviving friends, "mates", relatives, educators and government for encouraging rather than dissuading them from becoming easy helpless targets.
I truly deplore that my posts come out as insencitive - especially towards victims. I guess I've dealt with casualties enough to quickly go through that nerve-wrecking sorrow phase straight to the "what the heck has happened and how it could have been prevented and what we do now..." part. Part of psychological defence - not to dwell on a loss but try to be constructive. I am really quite a sensitive person. Would have made a good mercenary otherwise.
I just believe stongly in personal responcibility and "I am my brother's keeper" view. The world is a dangerous place out there or even here. Ignorance and carelessness or reliance on abstract "rights" are not good excuses for letting your close ones or yourselves to get killed unwittingly.
There are times when we do send people in the path of danger - for duty, education, out of necessity. There are times when we take unnecessary risks ourselves because we must of because hiding from danger all the time would make our lives depressing hell - or just becasue of abundance of hormones.
Vulcan: Show me the statistics...
Any place that has scary statistic of terrorist acts against foreign tourists is probably not a good target. Hence the place that had it coming was the one where statistics showed low probability. Is that convincing to you? Apparently it was to the terrorists.
miko
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Thank you for just proving yourself to be a true village idiot. On one hand you say Bali is a dangerous place to be and tourists shouldn't be there, on the other you say its not and thats why it got bombed.
LOL, jesus Miko go to school or something, I'm actually beginning to feel sorry for you.
Originally posted by miko2d
Vulcan: Show me the statistics...
Any place that has scary statistic of terrorist acts against foreign tourists is probably not a good target. Hence the place that had it coming was the one where statistics showed low probability. Is that convincing to you? Apparently it was to the terrorists.
miko
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Amongst all that tripe you posted in the last few posts, only one passage really is worth replying to.
But if you did not try to warn them because you were ignorant of danger or did not care or underestimated it - you failed your friends and now are venting your frustration on me for mentioning sex or being undertutored in geography.
No. You've got it sooooo wrong. The reason why I 'vented' at you was simply the offhand way you brought a COMPLETELY irrelevant subject like child sex tourism into the equation. It was stupid. It was inane. It was offensive. Let me highlight it:
In my view the bomb blasts that killed them were just symptoms. The real cause of their death was stupidity, ignorance and wishfull thinking.
If you want to visit a muslim country and have fun there, join the Marines. You may not get to enjoy as many underage asian prostitutes, but at least you will be the one doing most of the blowing up...
And:
Care to try a web search on "australian" and "child sex tourism"? I did - and it will have to be a while till my revolt wears off.
Care to try the same search but without "australian"? You will get mostly the same results. What the heck is wrong with that country - Australia? Pedophilia as major national export?
No amount of apologetic back-tracking will erase those comments or justify them. Your meaning was very well understood. I stand by my earlier comments.
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I am so repulsed by you and your 'informed' comments that I've considered my unusual short sharp responses to be sufficient ,so I've left the more reasoned responses to be stated by Spook and others.
However...
I am sorry if you've got such an impression. I am blaming the terrorists for their deaths - like everybody else does. I am also blaming their surviving friends, "mates", relatives, educators and government for encouraging rather than dissuading them from becoming easy helpless targets.
I can't recall you blaming the terrorists at all...more like westerners for even being there, and all those deserving Australian pedophiles....we export it rememeber?
AND then blaming us, the friends and families for wanting to live our lives normally, as we always have.
as Spook said:
It is obvious Miko that you know nothing of Bali, the Australian people and nothing about the Balinese.
I truly deplore that my posts come out as insencitive - especially towards victims. I guess I've dealt with casualties enough to quickly go through that nerve-wrecking sorrow phase straight to the "what the heck has happened and how it could have been prevented and what we do now..." part. Part of psychological defence - not to dwell on a loss but try to be constructive. I am really quite a sensitive person. Would have made a good mercenary otherwise.
I doubt any part of that is true. If you think being 'constructive' is anything you've posted and then have the gall to try to sit back and wiggle you finger at us and say nyah nyah - you all should've known better.
I just believe stongly in personal responcibility and "I am my brother's keeper" view. The world is a dangerous place out there or even here. Ignorance and carelessness or reliance on abstract "rights" are not good excuses for letting your close ones or yourselves to get killed unwittingly.
Australia, apart from being the world's best child sex export/importers, has always stood up for it's own "rights". We always have, and always will.
I would not spend a penny of my taxes or risk the life of a single american soldier to ensure the "right" of an australian tourist to have a party in a muslim country.
We've bleed in every major conflict since the Boer War and earn't our place in the world - nothing was given to us that we haven't had to earn.
Australians aren't into our right to do this or our right to do that and we sure as diddly don't believe we have the given "right" to risk our lives just so we can just party.
But we obviously refused to live our lives in fear like you do you diddlying worm.
It is obvious Miko that you know nothing of Bali, the Australian people and nothing about the Balinese
No amount of apologetic back-tracking will erase those comments or justify them. Your meaning was very well understood. I stand by my earlier comments.
As do I..
Tronsky
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Slight correction, before I mean't these guys : http://www.peacecorps.gov/indexnf.cfm
not the US Foreign Service :)
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I might also add Miko (as im sitting here bored at Midnight waiting for numbers in the MA to improve), I protect people every working day. Ive never stood around waiting for a pat on the head as reward and I find the general majority dont care and in some cases appear not to want me to do it at all, but I do, because thats my job.
If theres one thing ive learnt, is that not all people want to be saved. This country has a good rapport with Bali. Our people do not live in the environment of fear that may encompass the average American tourist.
We may not be loved as Westerners, but most in the world, love us as Australians. Hence apart from the worlds worst troublespots, we generally go where we please. Common sense withstanding.
Also, in response to American Soldiers being put at risk for the dumb Aussie to stupid to know better. (variation of words employed). I would hope that no American Soldier, sailor or Airman is ever put in that position.
But I know when Australian Soldiers are asked to stand alongside your own, they dont ask why there protecting Americans. They just go do it. This country has its share of bleeding heart anti-American policy liberals but they are not representative of this country and its friendship with your own.
I do not know of a time, exception being WW2, when we have asked you to stand by us and fight. (Perhaps Timor in a Peacekeeping role). But I also cannot think of a time when your country has asked Australian Men and Women to place themselves in harms way and for us ever to refused.
Why Bali happened is irrelevant to me. What it means is important and often seems to be lacking in understanding when speaking of Terrorism on this BBS.
The US, Britain, Canada and the poor dumb schmucks the Aussies and others, are all in it together. Our Alliance not only forged in friendship now but in blood.
None of us need to be fighting each other. There certainly appears to be more than enough out there in the world to fight as it it.
At least you have the luxury of distance from your enemies. We have 7000,000+ muslim extremists on our doorstep. We may well ask your soldiers to shed blood and lose their lives in order to defend us. We have done it before in the Pacific War.
Rest assured that beside them, will be Australians. As it always has been and any blood spilt on our side will be shared.
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Vulcan: On one hand you say Bali is a dangerous place to be and tourists shouldn't be there, on the other you say its not and thats why it got bombed.
Which words exactly made you think I said that? You are just imagining things. I never said Bali was not dangerous. I admited it had nice statistics, but It's you who foolishly equate nice "statistics" with abcense of danger, not me.
Who says Bali wasn't safe? Show me the statistics dickhead or STFU.
See - it's you who insist that Bali was safe based on "statistics"! No wonder you believed so since you tend to STFU any expert and who asess threat based on real factors - like the ability of terrorists to drive a carload of explosive unimpeded.
Your argument that Bali was not dangerous is nonsensical - there was explosion there. Explosions do not happen in places where there is no danger of explosion. Refusing to see the danger does not negate it.
Vulcan:If the Washington Sniper reads the AH BBS I got $100 here for Miko's head.
...I think hes a mental retard who has no value to offer the human race.
Come on, baby - you just love the fact that a terrible tragedy happened to your friends. That allows you to act all hauty and demand sympathy and no one can criticise you or your country and respond to any of you inane arguments without sounding insensitive. You can call people names becasue you pretend to be distraught.
I mean, it's clear - you offered $100 for my head for allegedely slighting the victims but you have not offered a penny for the heads of terrorists that actiually killed them. You probably believe they have a lot of "value to offer the human race".
Or maybe it's guilt speaking? Maybe you encouraged your hapless friends to visit the "safe" Bali? You still clame it safe. Maybe the terrorists should offer you comission for baiting the trap? You are a freaking terrorist collaborator.
As for your personal remarks..., does your nick "vulcan" mean that you are likely to erupt at the slightest provocation? Or are you a trekkie? In that case you should work more on controlling your temper. He-he...
Dowding: No amount of apologetic back-tracking will erase those comments or justify them. Your meaning was very well understood. I stand by my earlier comments.
I only offered an appology because I was tactless this time, not incorrect - and apparently distracted people from real discussion in this thread. Do not insinuate that I attempted to "back-track" or retract those comments.
No. You've got it sooooo wrong. The reason why I 'vented' at you was simply the offhand way...
Oh, yea? So you are really more upset that some guy possibly showed disrespect for your dead friends than you allowing them to get killed? I see your priorities. They are pretty much the same as Vulcan's. Nitpicking my literary style is more important to you than assessing the real danger facing westerners in the third world countries. What a horror! I was "irrelevant"! Just look up "Denial" in a book of psychology. You are guilty, deal with it.
Anyway, if you want insensitive talk, you do not have to imagine it on my part. Here it goes:
You expect me to feel sorry for a bunch of tourists partying and spending money in enemy's country I while we here in NY are waiting for that briefcase nuke or smallpox to arrive?
You expect me to feel distraught imagining my firends, relatives, myself in place of the victims? That is why the terror of WTC was so acute - becasue we all have close ones and ourselves in danger here working in office buildings and flying in airplanes. Guess what - none of my friends or relatives could have gotten themselves murdered in a nighclub of a hostile country - not if I had any say in it.
-tronski-: I can't recall you blaming the terrorists at all...more like westerners for even being there
Blaming the terrorists? What for? To make them change their way? I doubt many of them read this board. Murder is their nature - like a rabid dog or a poison snake. You shoot one or get out of it's way. Definitely get close ones out of it's way.
By the way, let's do a show of hands - who among the present here actually ever fought muslim militants with rifle in hand?
I seriously doubt that your hyppocritical "blaming" is ever as effective against terrorists as my AK-47 or PK-T were.
BTW I only use the term "terrorist" to humor you dumb shmucks. Those people are not terrorists. They are enemy soldiers waging total war.
Have you ever served in a military? I'd guess anyone who did and was proud of doing so would have put it into his profile. I guess you never planned on dealing with terrorists beyong "blaming" them.
AND then blaming us, the friends and families for wanting to live our lives normally, as we always have.
That is exactly what I do! I blame you! You want to live you lives "normally" in a world which is not even close to normal - so you live in denial and end up waving your friends to unnecessary deaths.
We are in mortal danger here. You want to "live normally", stay out of the combat zone. I would not be surprised if more potatoho.., er nightclubs get blown up in Bali by terrorists. Or our B-52s pay a visit to demolish what remains of that source of currency for enemy's economy. Tourists better not be there when it happens.
If you think being 'constructive' is anything you've posted and then have the gall to try to sit back and wiggle you finger at us and say nyah nyah - you all should've known better.
You expected me to deny that? Guess what - that's exactly what I ment: You all should've known better!
That was actually not why I joined this thread - I though that part was obvious. I joined it to note that harm to tourist economy was not a backfire but planned effect of the terror act - and fallacy of estimation of danger based on prior occurence rather than closeness of and viciousness of enemy.
But we obviously refused to live our lives in fear like you do you diddlying worm.
That's what it was? "Damn the torpedoes! Bring in more beer! Give me party or give me death!" - not "we hope we are so inoffencive and out of the way that nobody cares to waste ammo on us?" or "what World War III? We do not read newspapers!".
Oh, you are so brave... So you are going to Bali? With family? Take Vulcan with you.
Sp00k, now you are turning around and getting all reasonable on me!
If Australia ever asks for US help fighting whoever, I hope this country will furnish it without hesitation. It would be an honor for me or my son to fight alongside australian soldiers.
It's fighting for someone's right to party or "live normally" or even "buy cheap oil" that I don't like.
The US, Britain, Canada and the poor dumb schmucks the Aussies and others, are all in it together. Our Alliance not only forged in friendship now but in blood.
If only more people understood that - even here in US!
I wouldn't count much on europeans though - most likely another french will write a best-selling book how FBI and Mossad or aussies themselves blew up Bali and that will give them an excuse to stay on the sidelines and spend money on welfare state rather than defence.
None of us need to be fighting each other. There certainly appears to be more than enough out there in the world to fight as it it.
P.S. I actually was compelled to go back and delete some nice inflamatory paragraphs in my responce to Dowding here which you could have found (even more) offencive to australians.
I strongly urge you not to continue reading this thread further - I will try to refrain from answering that trio of hyppocritical handsomehunkes and making spectacle of myself in the process but I cannot guarantee that.
Regardless of anything posted here, I would trust my back to most aussies any day. Let's leave it at that. Keep your friends safe!
miko
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I do feel sorry for you Miko, I suspect you are holed up somewhere, with no real life stuck forever in your 80's war memories, angry at everyone, blaming everyone else for your miserable existance.
I understand why you're so bitter now, I understand why you take such pleasure in piping up everytime an Islamic group murders innocents. I see your twisted "I told you so, we should have finished them off in Afghanistan but the USA helped them defeat us and now look whats happened" logic.
Seek professional help or you will never be happy in your life.
Dowding, Spook, Tronski, time to lay off this guy - hes got serious personal issues. to you guys and I hope your mates made it out.
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As much as it pains me to leave the absolute crap he just posted unanswered, I think you are probably right Vulcan.
My friends are OK and are apparently in Sydney as I write this.
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Have you ever served in a military?
Actually yes...I don't use it as a crutch to add weight to my arguments.
As much as it pains me to leave the absolute crap he just posted unanswered, I think you are probably right Vulcan. My friends are OK and are apparently in Sydney as I write this.
Agreed Vulcan, trust a kiwi to come up with a good idea!
Good to hear Dowding, so are mine (sorry to dissapoint some people).
Tronsky
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Originally posted by miko2d
Explosions do not happen in places where there is no danger of explosion. Refusing to see the danger does not negate it.
huh?
give it up, you were wrong with the angle/content of your initial post, refused to admit it and back track, instead are happy digging your hole deeper
:rolleyes:
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Vulcan: I do feel sorry for you Miko, I suspect you are holed up somewhere
Not really. I enjoy my life, not nearly holed up. I would still go to Manhattan as often as I used to (though with a gas mask handy) but I have a baby now. I am not much afraid to die - just would be embarassmed to die of stupidity, like some hapless tourists. I understand being blown up in Israel studying historic sites, but partying in Indonesia?
I see your twisted "I told you so, we should have finished them off in Afghanistan but the USA helped them defeat us and now look whats happened" logic.
Oh, no - quite the opposite. I was a brainwashed and ignorant slave-soldier of an expancive dictatorial regime trying to grab as much as it can and making us comit untold atrocities in the process. It was great that americans kicked our ass. We certainly deserved that and more. Not just that getting into a trouble with those insane fanatics was a bad decision for USSR - we fully deserved to be nuked just for our evilness and danger to humanity. Also, if you think that even then I hated poor afghans any more than most my "comrades" or officers, you would be wrong. Army life in soviet union was tough - war or not.
I can't believe americans were so stupid as not to nuke us in early 50s when we did not have nuclear bombs ourselves. Would have spared everybody a lot of grief.
I believe it would have been to the benefit of americans to support democratic secular fraction of afgan freedom-fighters rather than most rabid religious fanatics. Those were easier to start but impossible to stop.
Also any involvement with such religious regimes or plain dictators is bad for US, despite cheap oil - especially since there is no political need to oppose the soviet block.
See - I am very consistent. Freedom is good, fanaticism and dictatorship is bad. Even if they are american friends for now and good tourist spots.
Thanks for your concern anyway.
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Explosions do not happen in places where there is no danger of explosion. Refusing to see the danger does not negate it.
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Eagler: huh?
That means anyone with half a brain could have figured out that numerous indonesian fanatical muslim militants had desire and opportunity to blow up those places. Their clerics called them "sinful nightclubs" and worse. They just took their sweet time getting to it. The danger was always there. People just ignored it - by choice or ignorance.
miko
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Islam is a religion of peace.