Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Heinkel on October 13, 2002, 01:58:00 PM
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It's amazing what some people will do to aviod air combat, in an air combat game. This happens way way too much...anything that can be done?
Film112 (http://www.3-jg2.com/film112.ahf)
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-edit- film got messed up somehow, the CV doesn't appear at first. Just watch the TG right as the nme lancs hit, and you will see the CV appear, then sink.
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Is that the problem, bombers can sink the CV?
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No, the Sucide dweebs. Now with 3 bombers, sinking a CV has become incredibly easy. Only takes a few minutes climb, and no skill required (as demonstrated by piolt in video.)
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yeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaa! suicide lanc divebomb!
I hate to admit I agree on this though. Being able to suicide a buff formation into a CV(plus the fact that doing it from the level bombsight is infinitly harder) is kind of ridiculous. Ack should be toughened to stop these "drop bombs at last second before impact" attacks, and torpedos increased in damage. Perhaps the ack should be strong enough that if you get to the point where you're going to hit the water, it'll usually kill ya.
Then again, those buffs would have been patheticly easy to kill from the 5" guns.
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Basically, most people in AH (with the except of some) will do anything to aviod air combat (pork fuel, kill FHs, suicide CV, ect, ect...) This is more or less another suicide dweeb whine, but I just can't understand why, when a good fight is developing between a CV and an airfeild, someone always has to come in and suicide the CV.
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AH is more than furballing. Base capture requires things like fields being porked, and CV's killed. Porking a fields fuel almost always ensures you an advantage, since it's hard to gain alt with only 25% fuel.
Also unfortunatly, suiciding is the best way to do this. Surviving it just means you need to spend that much time flying back to base. Short of perking jabos or 1000lb bombs, I can't see any good way to stop it.
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field capture is what perpetuates the suicidal nature of the main. It needs to be re thought out as a means to trigger a reset.
Too many gangbangs and suicidal raids to make the main less fun everyday. The other day me and afew squaddies upped to defend a base in which there was a minimum of 30 typh/51s and assorted others ib. We were out numbered 3 to 1 easy.
When it ended all the enemy were dead, sounds like great defending by us, nope none us even got a kill. They all dove straight in on the field and died. Most of everything was still up even the ack. They repeated this 3 times before I logged.
Field capture with 200 people in the main was ok. Large raids were 15 folks. I used love to up to catch bombers ib to hq.
Field capture with 500 folks is tired and played out.
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Originally posted by Heinkel
No, the Sucide dweebs. Now with 3 bombers, sinking a CV has become incredibly easy. Only takes a few minutes climb, and no skill required (as demonstrated by piolt in video.)
Flying with "no skill" involved has become an avenue of profit for HTC... without it I'm sure most of the point-click-kill types would leave AH.
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wotan , did you get their tail numbers? i would report them to HTC for unfair play.
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If AH is a game then you gotta let em game the game.. If AH is a simulation then that behavior shouldn't be allowed.
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Look at it this way; when they suicide the CV they are killing their ranking for whichever category they're flying in. Worse, it is so easy to egg a CV or a cruiser without getting killed, so they're making themselves look like dweebs (which they are). I prefer dive bombing, but with a fighter. The cruiser can be killed with just one fighter and two 1k eggs. Four fighters with the same loadout could kill a CV. The only real risk in doing it right is getting hit by the 5" guns.
The damage you do, for each death, is a deciding factor in the attack category, so they're 'killing themselves' in more ways then one in doing the suicide runs.
Oh, well, it just makes it easier for the wiser veterans to get rank.
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wtf you talking john?
it aint about being fair its about unfun gameplay. Its that simple.
Again today at a48 25 + cons in 2 waves all die in ack. Not only did they kill themselves they ran from a fight. They came from a8. thats 2 sectors away. Just to auger.
Field capture, or capture the flag is tired out and lame. Especially the way it plays out with 450 people.
There have been numerous suggestions that reflect a different style of main gameplay.
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wotan ...what are you telling us for ?? we can't change the game. yo gota problem , instead of beechn to us, tell high tech, or are you trying to gain support for your point of view?
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If only HTC would model a defensive cap so the Furball/Ack Generators would stay afloat longer.
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I am not beetchin and as I said plent of suggestion have been made.
I am calling like I see it.
If dont like dont read it.
Were you invited into this thread? Kidnapped and made to read it? Tricked into opening it up?
My replies in this thread on are topic with it. Yours arent . I didnt start this amyway.
If you dont like it, so what. Who are you?
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i'm sorry , i did not realize this was a private thread and i needed an invite
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Originally posted by Heinkel
It's amazing what some people will do to aviod air combat, in an air combat game. This happens way way too much...anything that can be done?
Film112 (http://www.3-jg2.com/film112.ahf)
Yes, give the bombs realistic arming-times. like 1000-2000 ft.
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whats an ahf file?
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Simple... reward the fly-to-live types with even more perks. :)
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Thats the point. No one is making you read this thread. If you dont like the content then move along. You seem to have trouble with my replies. Then why read umm? As said no one is making you, or tricking into reading umm.
Ponder that a bit.
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To be realistic.......for a sim three objectives are paramount in attacking a base. Live....live to get ordnance to the target...live to deliver the ordnance........live to rtb. Maybe no points should be awarded unless your aircraft returns to base. I'm all in favor of not awarding pilots points in attack mode unelss they rtb safely.
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There is always the CT:cool:
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There are two major problems.
First, Suicide jabo pilots couldn't care less about thier stats. Anyways, the choice between fighter and attack missions gives pilots the option to statpotato, but still suicide when they want to.
Second, perks are hardly a reward. Many people have thousands of unused perks, simply because there is little fun in flying any of them, except the occasional 262, or C-hog. Earning the perks is far more fun than spending them. For perks to be a decent reward, spending them needs to be something worth doing.
The only real reward right now for landing is getting the landed kill message. On a suicide jabo run, you're not going to get any kills, so it's irrelevant.
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Hajo has it there. No points or perks for suicide runs.
how about if you die a certain amount of times ie never rtb then you start to lose perks :D now that would be good in order to make it a undesirable move.
how about we have a seperate perk or point system for jabo planes? if you continually die within a minute or so of dropping ordinance then you eventually get a ban from using ordinance for a day or so?.
this would mean those of us who die attacking a base but are trying hard to really attack would not be penalised for dieing whilst helping and trying to live, whilst those who just drop and auger will find they are soon unable to do it.
what do you think?
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Anyone played Battlefield 1942 yet?
They use a system where each country has a certain amount of resource points, if a player dies this is taken out of the resource points. If you hit zero, that country loses automaticaly.
The resource counter acts like a kind of reinforcements/reserves counter.
I'm not sure this would work for AH, it doesn't for BF1942.
Too many people going on suicide runs will cause your side to lose, but maybe the average AH player is a little more conscious about good online play behaviour then the average BF'er.
Although according to this topic, this might not be neceseraly true:)
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Originally posted by hazed-
Hajo has it there. No points or perks for suicide runs.
how about we have a seperate perk or point system for jabo planes? if you continually die within a minute or so of dropping ordinance then you eventually get a ban from using ordinance for a day or so?.
what do you think?
I don't know, Hazed. I fly to live...on every single mission. Thats the real challenge. Any yutz can climb into a plane and suicide their target.
Example, 3 nights ago, we had a CV not far off shore. I grabbed a flight of 26's. I took the time to climb to a safe altitude, targeted, calibrated, dropped.....and missed.
Then I took the time to fly home and land my flight. My goal every month is to have better and better ranks, and have more kills than deaths. I need a goal aside from a reset. If I don't have one, I don't enjoy the game as much.
But in refernce to your post, I don't think your system would be fair to pilots like me, who also fly dive bombing missions on CV's Etc. It's very difficult to survive a CV Dive Bomb run, and I am not suiciding. I'm being blasted from the sky by the cloud of ack coming from the fleet.
I don't think I should have my ordinance taken away. What the computer would have to do, is determine intent, which I'm not sure it's capable of.
Your thoughts?
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Originally posted by Heinkel
This is more or less another suicide dweeb whine, but I just can't understand why, when a good fight is developing between a CV and an airfeild, someone always has to come in and suicide the CV.
To defend the airfield and bag some easy points! ;)
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Hey i fight ur typhoon
even in a perky 262 ill take the risk to HO u again
:D
Was a bit suicide wasn't it ?
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Originally posted by TheFlyingNazi
whats an ahf file?
Aces High Film. Download it to your Aces High/Film directory and then launch Aces High.
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How many times can you guys rehash a post? same old stuff how these mythical suicide dweebs ruin everyone's fun. I guess there must be an awful lot of players out there with crystal balls and mind reading powers to ascertain a pilot's intensions as he takes off or fly's over a field :rolleyes:
What about the suicide defenders who up constantly? there is no atrition in AH you can respawn until certain objects are destroyed and this in itself directs players into getting together huge swarms of jabo's because they know they need to get these targets down or face swarm after swarm of suicide attackers who can throw themselves at anyone in sight safe in the knowledge they can do it again and again and again while the attackers have much further to fly.
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After viewing the film, I have to say WTG FF1! I would of joined him with my squad of lancs, but I have a job plus college classes, so i couldnt join my fellow squadmate in the buff run. Us 81st members are bastiges like that LOL
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Originally posted by Hajo
I'm all in favor of not awarding pilots points in attack mode unelss they rtb safely.
Why make a difference to fighters? Let the same rule apply for them, too.
Originally posted by Innominate
The only real reward right now for landing is getting the landed kill message. On a suicide jabo run, you're not going to get any kills, so it's irrelevant.
No kills for dropping bombs on a CV? Then you're choosing the wrong time for your drop ;)
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For some reason I think I remeber trying aces a couple of years ago and at that time to get any perks you had to land. Am I remembering wrong?
I would approve very much of such a reward/penalty for living or dying. You can't make people fly "right" but I guess you can encourage them to do so? (Carrot vs. Stick approach?)
edit to add : I would also like to see more point for killing "better" pilots and less for killing "lesser" or "newbee" pilots. It's harder to kill an experienced stick, seems should be worth more to kill em too? ;)
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Ok revvin... you are right... we don't know that they are "suicide" dweebs.. the only other explanation is that they are totally skilless... either way... they shouldn't have such an easy time ruiining peoples online time.
lazs
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Everytime I get shot down, it ruins my online time, so could you guys just let me fly along, and not shoot at me, please?
I really don't want my playtime ruined by the actual aspects of Aces High.
Thanks in advance.
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Originally posted by Turbot
For some reason I think I remeber trying aces a couple of years ago and at that time to get any perks you had to land. Am I remembering wrong?
Yes. Perk points have not been around that long.
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When discussing style of play and mechanisms to try to promote one style over another, the subject of using perks or points often comes up as a likely mechanism to 'reward', and therefore insure, 'desired conduct'. I suspect, however, that like me, most players care nothing about points or perks. Only a few players have the skill and time to rank highly, and for the rest of us, who cares if we are ranked 837 or 1257? I don't think points, medals, or perks can be used to mold players actions.
By definition, a non-linear game, like a flight simulator, cannot simulate "death"- i.e. it can't make you go back to the first room of the dungeon and start all over. I suppose you could re-incarnate the player as a newbie pilot who, as was sometimes the case in real life, is only allowed to fly certain less desirable planes until he builds up some points or flight time. But think how incredibly unpopular that would be: die and you are relegated to Hurricanes instead of Spitfires, P40s instead of P51s, Zeros instead of N1K2s, TBMs instead of F6Fs.
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I bet we'd end up with a whole bunch of better pilots if we did it like 715 suggests! :)
I am rather tired of the uncontrolled, furball nature of the MA. All I do these days in the MA is up one plane, and I fly that until I get shot down or have to ditch. Did that with a 190a5 for 2.5 hours the other day and rather enjoyed it.
Other than that it's CT or Scenarios or something else (game-wise) for me. I can't wait for Midway to begin! :)
-Amboss
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....waiting for the Mission Theatre.....
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well you guys think anti aircraft fire was good in ww11. lol
The bismark fired its entire supply of flak. . Not one plane was lost to its flak. and these were biplanes in ww11 lol.
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I figure there are two ways to go about this:
1) Death = timeout. This approach would be very unpopular.
2) Going back to the perk approach. First, no matter what type of sortie you are on, 0 perk points unless you land. Then combine that with perking ord. maybe say 1 perk/ 100lbs, 1 perk per rocket, 1 perk per troop...etc. of course MG and cannon rounds are still free, but hey, perk DTs as well. Make returning your aircraft a must or you will lose the ability to do so eventually.
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I cannot wait until the Submarines come into play. Then we're going to hear the "You dweeb! You commited suicide after I fired my spread! Now my sub gunnery is porked for the entire tour! Arrrgh!" whine.
This sort of problem is precisely why the AKDessert map is such a favorite of mine. There just aren't enough dweebs to suicide every fleet.
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The idea isnt to stop guys from killing themselves but to limit their impact over the rest of us. A fundamental shift away from field capture as the trigger for winning the war may help shift the focus to other structures.
Idealy I would like to see strat incorporated into the reset equation. We have strat zones and if more and larger strat objects were added to the maps we could do these as a trigger.
At the start of each map each side would start with xxx amount of production from all strat combined. When one sides overall production drops below a certain level over a given period of time then the reset occurs. These strat objects would need to large enough, spread out enough and tough enough that it should take a considerable effort and coordination to do this. This wont stop suicide but it will shift the focus from the airfields. Allow these stat objects to become capturable like the old depos. Make it necessary to have all the buildings destroyed. Have a vbase attached to each. Once all strat in a strat zone has been captured and held over a period of time all the fields in that sector become the property of the country controlling the strat. Have all strat objects be resuppliable and make trains and trainstations be an important part of their resupply. The aaa at these strat objects should be good enough to discourage jabos. Jabos wont be eliminated, as matter of strategy jabos strikes could be used to isolate a strat object and push the defenders back while bombers follow up on the factories. The fights would shift to over these strat objects. This way even the furball types by engaging the fighters in theses areas are in a way contributing to the "war".
This will also make the cv more valuable where by if you lose it you lose a valuable resource to strike deep into enemy territory. It wont eliminate the suicide cv killers but it may convince a few of the value of bar cap.
People will still kill themselves but it will get away from the 30 man waves of suicide jabos that wash and repeat over and over until they get a field. It will give some meaningfull use to the mission planner.
This just a suggestion and there are obvious details and *other* things to consider but you get the idea of what I mean.
People want the main to be a war, then give it to them let the rest of us who dont care about the war alone. Airfields should be relatively close to the strat objects to keep folks interested in defending. If they are to far away then it would suck.
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Great idea Wotan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I like Wotan's idea. My idea would be:
Have bombs not arm when over water, only over land. Use the torps for the water, thats why we have em.
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Talking about strats (good post Wotan), I'd also like to see factories added which, when destroyed, will cause certain kinds of planes/vehicles/ordonnance to be unavailable inside their sector of influence until rebuilt.
-Amboss
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Our squad talked about this a month or so ago, thinking over ways of limiting suicidal players both defending and attacking. Currently there is no penalty for flying in a suicidal manner and that goes for planes attacking a field or those defending a field if you die to just click click and you're back in the air.
My thought's centre on limiting the number of aircraft at an airfield by tying in the number of planes available to the number of hangar's up. Say for instance at a medium field you could have say 4 fighter hangars each capable of holding 40 planes. Numbers could be increased or decreased as required but for gameplay purposes in the MA this hangar capacity may have to be quite high. So now we have a situation where we have 160 planes available at that field. Under normal circumstances the train and vehicle convoy's would resupply this field at a certain rate so potentially the field may never run out of available fighters but should this supply system be interupted then the only way to get supplies in would be to fly them in by C47 which would introduce another cargo type for this plane.
If a field has all it's hangar's destroyed it can still accept resupplies but as it has nowhere to put them it either has a greatly reduced plane capacity..say for instance be able to hold 20 planes or have aslightly increased capacity..say 40 but these planes would then appear parked on the grass around the airfield where they would make juicy target's for attacking planes as they would be damaged beyond use with a few well placed cannon rounds.
This system would apply to bomber and vehicle hangar's and perhaps supplies of a certain class ofvehicle (fighter/bomber/vehicle) would have to be ordered by a field controller who could take adminstrative control of an airfield the same way a player would control a CV group and then he could choose a certain type of supply or accept a random type or the type's turn up automatically in rotation for instance fighters first then bombers then vehicle's or a C47 could choose a particular cargo type to fly the supplies in manually to augment the AI supply lines.
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Originally posted by lazs2
Ok revvin... you are right... we don't know that they are "suicide" dweebs.. the only other explanation is that they are totally skilless... either way... they shouldn't have such an easy time ruiining peoples online time.
lazs
LOL! so much for agreeing with 3 of your posts this month.
Lazs,
He said they (25 suicide dweebs) didn't damage "anything". That means they didn't really ruin your fun (by definition). Personally, I believe both he and you exagerate way too much to try to prove a point and it makes both of you look equally as silly.
AKDejaVu
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Revvin theres no suicide defenders.
All you have to do is bomb 3 buildings that ends the defense.
I defend fields all the time and never is it suicide. Engaging in a2a to combat is not the equalivant of flying straight into the ground over and over.
Not even close.
It may be high risk but its far from suicidal.
Most of the guys that up to defend like myself dont care if we lose the base. It was or atleast used to be a good quick way to get into some action. In my examples in the other posts above I looked on radar and saw a mass of red ib a base. I upped to engage them. Everyone I pointed my nose blew right by and flew into the ground. Not just 1 but many. They did not the crash by accident. After several waves and no kills but a few proxies I just say f'it and logged.
That is no way comparable to some one who ups to defend a field.
No one cares if someone wants to kill themself over and over. But when gets to the point where there is no a2a combat then AH sucks. I dont care anything about resets or field capture or any of that. I dont care much about getting shot down.
I pop in for an hour so looking for some air to air. Most combat now is either follow the pack and join the gangbang, up to defend a base or go on a tour of the map.
People say that these folks wanna get back to the fight faster so they kill themselves. Well none of umm fight. Why fly a sector to auger. Just take off and split esse right into the ground.
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Originally posted by 715
I suppose you could re-incarnate the player as a newbie pilot who, as was sometimes the case in real life, is only allowed to fly certain less desirable planes until he builds up some points or flight time.
That is what perk does, but the perk system is very limited.
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I've given a little bit of thought to a possible plane limiting system.
Each player has thier own hangar, what other people do with thier planes has no effect on it. The player has a limited(or unlimited for high eny planes) number of aircraft available to them, which rebuild over time based on thier countries strat, and the plane itself. The rebuild happens wether or not they're online.
Every plane, including the perk planes would be available from this hangar. If a player runs out of a certain plane, that plane will be available for a price in perks. The price of the perks would be based on how much rebuild time is left untill the next plane is ready, and the plane itself. Using something like this, newbies could get the opportunity to fly planes like the me262 on occasion, without having them taking over the arena.
A system like this could offer a lot in the way of helping to slow down suicides, and also offer a way to have the lesser flown planes flown more often. (ENY and the perk system are currently not a reward for it)
Someone else, I forget who, mentioned the idea of having fields hangars disable certain planes. i.e. A field with 3 fighter hangars, losing one, would lose a random third of it's fighter types. It could also be randomly spread out to disable roughly the same quality of fighters. i.e. each hangar being killed would knock out a few low eny planes, a few medium eny planes, and a few high eny planes, rather than a completly random selection.
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why would limiting the numbers of aircraft be a good thing?
Who cares is some gets killed or kills himself, let him. Thats not the problem. The whole capture the flag is what perpetuates the idea that to win the war we must capture that base. When the objective is simply to roll up on 1 field after another then you will have this type of stuff going.
This system works well with a 250 person main. With 500 it becomes overwhelming.
Limiting what folks can fly and where they can fly is not good. Its also not a good idea to force people to fly in a way they dont like.
But what can be done is adjusting the rules of gameplay to encourage a different style of play. Shifting the reset away from airfield capture relieves most of the problems of the gangbangs. It doesnt end suicide raids or keep people from flying where, when and how they want.
Folks no doudt will still wanna vulch and close fields but out side the simple gratification of getting a few quick kills it will do little to help them win the war.
These suicide guys claim that they are trying to win the war. They care about that. Make winning the war something other then field capture. They say they join these missions with a desire for organization. Give them reset conditions that works best with organization.
Attrition and perk ordinance and point modifiers are not the solution. The main cant be run like a half assed scenario. Thats why wwiiol sucks.
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Revvin theres no suicide defenders
:rolleyes: but there are suicide attackers right? :rolleyes: this dweeby instaspawn is used well by kamikaze defenders.
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events run 4 times a week that have limited spawns. Try those. The main is not designed for that. You like most bomber pilots thinks its your roll to stop folks from flying where when and how they want.
I dont think many play and pay for a game not to be able to fly.
The suicide guys think they are actually helping to "win a war". All I suggest is a change in the conditions necessary to win. I believe that folks will adjust their tactics to the new conditions all on their own.
You want folks not be able to fly. I cant believe that this could ever be a good thing. You would think wbs would be more successful with its rps if this were the case.
I defend everyday in the main, hardly kamikaze. Its not comparable. The guys who do get killed defending do it facing the enemy not flying into the ground.
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You like most bomber pilots thinks its your roll to stop folks from flying where when and how they want.
Proves how little you know, I can't remember the last time I attacked an airfield in a bomber or the last time No.9 attacked an airfield in bombers during our squad night activities.
This is not about bombers but nice of you to try and twist it that way.
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Originally posted by Wotan
why would limiting the numbers of aircraft be a good thing?
Why are the perk planes perked?
I prefer the idea of rewarding people for flying lesser used planes, I already know you don't, and it doesn't seem like HTC likes the idea much either.
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Originally posted by Wotan
The suicide guys think they are actually helping to "win a war". All I suggest is a change in the conditions necessary to win. I believe that folks will adjust their tactics to the new conditions all on their own.
These clods have no business in any "event" outside the MA and appropriate Pac war scenario type assignment. I've actually watched a few goofs planning suicide runs in the MA. I don't get it... it detracts from the overall game and is downright stupid. But.. for those who want to paint a stupid sign on thier forhead, I'm all for it, it's good to know who's who.
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Originally posted by Innominate
Why are the perk planes perked?
I prefer the idea of rewarding people for flying lesser used planes, I already know you don't, and it doesn't seem like HTC likes the idea much either.
Strange quote...only the "Why are the perk planes perked?" was originally showing on your post.
I thought that perk planes are perked to help "balance" gameplay. Maybe I'm wrong.
Adjusting the reset requirements so that a gaggle of idiot tiffie drivers will not suicide a base over and over reducing gameplay is a good idea. Maybe I'm wrong.
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to prevent them from unbalancing the main. Everyone has access to perk planes. Every one has the same potential to earn perk points.
Perk planes arent the same as having only 40 planes available at 1 base, not even a close comparison.
Anyone up and get 20 or so perks quickly.
You have been hung up and perk planes since you came to ah. Every thread you steer back to perk planes
People are rewarded for flying early war and less used planes in the form of higher eny values.
You assume that because a plane has a perk value it must be a great plane. You also claim to get gangbanged when you fly one. From a check of your scores you rarely fly perk planes. I fly umm more then you so do people in my squad. We are no more gangbanged in a 152 then a d9.
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Originally posted by Wotan
Perk planes arent the same as having only 40 planes available at 1 base, not even a close comparison.
My apologies, I thought you were responding to my post.
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was editing whwen you replied see above
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revvin its clear from your posts.
insta spawn
wanting hangers to stay down longer
limiting the number of airctaft per field
crater damage to stop plans from taking off
You have a whole history of posts that have the same theme. Do I need to fill the thread with quotes?
I never made any mention of how you or your squad flies, because I dont care. Thats up to you to find your fun. But your consistant theme matchs up with the same things the other bomber pilots say.
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Perk planes are no reward. The sheer number of perks that people build up, I think is plenty of evidence that this is true.
If you fly a pack of any perk plane, or keep them where there will only be one or two enemy cons around, you'll never notice it. If you mix it up in a target-rich area, you're better off in a d or c-hog than the f4u4.
Take an F4u-1 and an f4u-4 into a large furball. The f4u-1 has a significantly better chance of surviving it with kills. In anything but a 1v1 or when the enemy is severly outnumbered, the f4u-1 is a better option, except for cherry picking from above everyone else in the area.
I don't care about the quality of the perk planes, I don't care if the f4u4 is completly outmatched by a p40B. What I care about is having fun flying them. An f4u-1 is more fun to fly, since you you don't become a potential trophy to everyone within 6000yards.
You seem to think that I want the perk planes to dominate everything in the game, I don't. The truth is that the f4u4, spit14, 152 are good planes, but they AREN'T great planes in the MA. They're comperable to the free planes. (although slightly better overall) There is nothing wrong with this, and the prices don't need to be changed. However, unlike the me262, they lack the performance to survive being marked as a trophy.
The free planes are kills. The perk planes are trophies.
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We have been over this :)
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Originally posted by Wotan
We have been over this :)
Not really, you've dodged and ignored parts of my arguments. You constantly respond that they're not perked because of thier performance, and I constantly have to say that the performance is irrelavant.
There are two types of perk planes,
Those that would dominate the arena, and those that would overpopulate it.
The me262 if it were free would completly outclass every other plane available, and be prettymuch the only thing flown. The planes in this class need the perk tags.
Then there are the planes that are perked just to keep them from dominating that type of plane, or from being overly used. These planes do not have a giant performance advantage over thier free counterparts. This class of planes needs to NOT have the perk tags.
Get ahold of me on ICQ or AIM, if you'd like, then we can stop annoying all of the poor bystanders here forced to listen to us. (Both are on my UBB profile)
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I like Revvin's idea.
I proposed something similar a few months back, where when a hangar is destroyed, a certain number of Random planes become unavailable at that field.
Rev's taken it one step further, and put planes out on the apron, which sure sounds juicy to me, but the coding would have to be a nightmare.
However, it would be quite a challenge. Imagine having to up a P-40 with elevator damage from a strafe, because its the only plane you can get into the air to nail the inbound goon.
I'm all for immersion, and this sure would do it.
I don't think anyone is trying to dictate what types and numbers of A/C a player can fly. It's simply a question of immersion.
You have 2 extremes. The pure Sim players, and the Pure Gamers. The Simmers would love to have ground crews, ATC, crash trucks, and all the stuff that Revvin mentioned.
The Gamers would like to spawn at 10k, not bother with take-off, or landing, and be 1000 yards from the nearest furball.
The challenge to HTC is to either find a happy medium in the MA, or have 2 different arenas.
I would venture to guess HTC is moving toward the latter, as the proposed Mission Arena is coming to fruition.
Who knows, maybe the New Main will have 10k Spawn points, Unlimted ammo, and power ups!
Just 2 extreme's, that's all. :D
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The probem with having a limited number of planes available at an airfield is fairly simple. Not everyone knows what thier doing, many don't care, and some will go out of thier way to screw things up for other people.
With a limited number of planes, you're stuck with newbies, and people who just don't care upping and dying. You're also going to have people taking off and crashing into the nearest solid object just so nobody else can fly.
Tieing aircraft availability to the performance of your teammates is a recipe for disaster.
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Excellent Point, Innominate.
So what would you propose?
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I remember in some Warbirds events there was a death per hour setting. You could only loose so many planes in a given time period (or from a certain base)
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First of all ya'll need to remember that this is a business and as such Hitech has to make money. Now if they was to follow anyone of the suggestions in this thread just how many of the newbees would even pay for the first month let alone long enough to attain the level that all of you have, I'll tell you never.
Ya'll want the arena to be run where everyone flys like you want and has a skill level to give you an almost equal fight but the only people that post on here are the elite to start with. I'll bet your attitudes have changed considerably since you were a DWEEBIFIED NEWBEE LAMER SKILLLESS (la7/spit/whatever plane)HOing whatever.
Leave the game alone and enjoy what it offers. The new commers will in time get better or they will quit and then you will have your elite club of skilled pilots that never HO always only fly the MANLY planes and always let the CV take whatever base it wants to.
So I have had my 2 cents worth you can let the flame fest begin but remember my first sentence, Hitech had better make money or there will be no on line game to argue over
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So long as there are infinite supplies of aircraft and ordnance, there will be infinite waves of pilots with no skill that will fly them into the ground.
The other night, a huge number (at least 20) of Bishop fighters were heading into one of our fields. I bet my squadies that 60% of them would be dead within the first 3 minutes of the attack. Unfortunately, I was wrong. The entire sector was clear of enemy fighters about 4 minutes after the first bomb dropped. Most of them augered in, several were shot down by AA, the rest were killed by the aerial defenders. The base did take some damage, but it was nothing too serious. As expected, the entire process was repeated again about 10 minutes later. Again, most of the attackers were dead before too long, but they just came back… Again.
The MA capture the field game is ruled by numbers. The side with the most players is probably going to win every time. The unskilled can always win, no matter how good the other side is. There is no strategy in the MA, and until available supplies and loss of virtual life is factored into the equation, the MA will continue to be a mindless slugfest.
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Thinking of the theoretical future of AH, remember when HiTech said that field capture will eventually become a FPS event, where each player can be a soldier with a gun?
If the current system stays in place, the field capture game engine can just be copied from QUAKE. No matter how many times you get shot, just respawn. Eventually, the attackers will run out of ammo and you will win.
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Originally posted by aac
First of all ya'll need to remember that this is a business and as such Hitech has to make money.
Could not agree more. No money for Hitech, No AH for us.
Ya'll want the arena to be run where everyone flys like you want and has a skill level to give you an almost equal fight but the only people that post on here are the elite to start with. I'll bet your attitudes have changed considerably since you were a DWEEBIFIED NEWBEE LAMER SKILLLESS (la7/spit/whatever plane)HOing whatever.
Uh.....what? Let me see if I understand you. I don't want everyone to fly like I want, but suicidal skill-free pilots simply detracts from the rest of our enjoyment. (Please note, new pilots simply learning the game are not included in the above statement. I will do all I can to assist new players in learning the ropes.) I'm hardly an Elite pilot...check my stats. I barely qualify for mediocre. But I would rather lose a good dogfight, then win a poor one. And my attitude is the same, except that I am a little more confident in my abilites. (Not much mind you, but I know how to open my bomb doors now)
Leave the game alone and enjoy what it offers. The new commers will in time get better or they will quit and then you will have your elite club of skilled pilots that never HO always only fly the MANLY planes and always let the CV take whatever base it wants to.
Leaving something alone is the surest path to mediocrity. Continuously striving to improve their product is what makes HTC great.
An envoirnment filled with skilled, mature individuals is perfectly acceptable to me, even though you a being facetious.
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Go ahead Wotan you just want an arcade like arena. At least my proposals tend to be more realistic than wanting to add a gamey feature in favour of mindless furballing you have a whole series of posts where you argue against proposals that would make AH more realistic. Same old toejam and how many more times do we need to hear you bleat about suicide attackers? :rolleyes:
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Purists make simulations, capitalists make games.
AH is still a game, and about the time you start limiting play to suit the purists (the sim freaks) you loose the game players and AH can't afford to improve the product.
From what I've heard the mission arena will cater to the sim crowd.
In the mean time it is what it is. If you can think of a way to improve your enjoyment without diminishing anyone else's I'm sure HT would like to hear it.
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Originally posted by Revvin
you have a whole series of posts where you argue against proposals that would make AH more realistic.
Please explain; Gaggles of suicide tiffie drivers that crash into everything in order to capture a base and then re-up and head back to the base like lemmings over a freaking cliff is making AH more realistic in which way?
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Come to think of it post away, post where I have asked for hangars to be down an unfair ammount of time and not some gamey concession to the arcade flyers out there, post away Wotan it will be amusing watching you wasting your time.
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I am only a relative newbie to AH but a gradute from AW.
1. HO hit probabilities were reduced. HO in AH depends as much on your connection as on any pilot ability.
2. There were muliple arena equivalent to MA
If you could have multiple arenas, one with early war (upto 1942)
mid war (42-44) and late war (44-45). I believe this was implement in AW (although as a tour rotation).
The current maps are too big for the number of players, take pizza map, in an early war fighters you need to take drop tanks to give you some chance of finding an opponent, if you are not defending.
one possible means making HO more skilled is to not let the range marker show distances below 2km.
The newbies are left with no alternative than to go for the fast cannon toting a/c as they are the easiest game in town.
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Originally posted by Puck
Purists make simulations, capitalists make games.
Falcon 4 was a pure simulation and it was pretty successful. So was Falcon 3, and F/A 18 Hornet. I'm sure there are many others, but this was my limited experience. Granted, though, there is a much larger demographic for games than Sims. Look at how many X-box's sold. They had some sort of fighter game on there, that my friend had me come over and try. He said it was just like aces high. I could stand to play it for all of 9 minutes. Unlimted missles, guns, poor AI, no flight model whatsoever. It was the most mindless endeavour I ever engaged in. But I bet it sold a million copies. So there is no question you are right there, Puck.
AH is still a game, and about the time you start limiting play to suit the purists (the sim freaks) you loose the game players and AH can't afford to improve the product.
Also sad but true. But how many people in this game do you think are Simmers and How many are Gamers? 50/50? Probably not, but a good question none the less. However, what if AH could capture both groups? Financial windfall, I would think. Once again, the mission arena may finally bridge this gap as you said
In the mean time it is what it is. If you can think of a way to improve your enjoyment without diminishing anyone else's I'm sure HT would like to hear it.
And I'd be very wealthy. But there is nothing else on the market that can compete in my mind, so here we are again.
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Go ahead Wotan you just want an arcade like arena. At least my proposals tend to be more realistic than wanting to add a gamey feature in favour of mindless furballing you have a whole series of posts where you argue against proposals that would make AH more realistic. Same old toejam and how many more times do we need to hear you bleat about suicide attackers?
I wanna arcade arena lol you fly lancaster. You dont get much more arcade then that. Even with the new bombsite. But I dont care anything about that. You do.
The main isnt about realism or immersion, it never was. Its about air combat. The only thing I want "real" are the fms and ballist model. Anything else you are just fooling yourself.
As for me wanting an arcade arena I fly/participate in more events and the like then I have ever seen you in. No ah aint the only game I ever played.
I spend plenty of time working with map makers, researching planesets and until recently at every opportunity to lead or atleast help make an event or the ct "immersive" I took it.
If you are tired of my post then you dont need to read anything I post, whether it be about suicide attackers or anything. I am not making you read it or reply.
Come to think of it post away, post where I have asked for hangars to be down an unfair ammount of time and not some gamey concession to the arcade flyers out there, post away Wotan it will be amusing watching you wasting your time.
All those things I said you claimed in my previous are true. If deny it you are a liar.
You insert the word "unfair" in reference to hanger down time but thats your word not mine. You have called for an increase in the down time for hangers. Whether it be "unfair" or "fair" is of no concern to me at all in so far as it doesnt impact my ability to have fun. You have called for crator damage on the runway to prevent folks from taking off. You have called for "attrition" that limits the ability for folks to fly where they want.
I want folks to take off, not just to shoot umm down but to fight. Attacking static ground objects is no fun. Flying around at 25k doing "air strafing" passes on unsuspected or prior engaged enemy is no fun. But I dont try to stop folks from doing what they like. Nor do I care if someone wants to kill themself over and over. I have suggested a change in the nature of the main gameplay, that if anything is a step closer to "history" then waves of suicide attack raids and suicide bombers. The only problem I have with the suicide raids is I end up chasing umm around for 40 minutes as they avoid any combat to simply auger. That I cant understand.
You otoh wanna stop people from fighting each other (or make it harder). We cant have any "arcade" air combat. :rolleyes:
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I wanna arcade arena lol you fly lancaster. You dont get much more arcade then that. - wotan
I am trying realy hard not to be offended by this, and avoid turining this into another "Buff pilots have no skill" threads.
Can't.......hang......on.....much...longer.........
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never said anything about skill.
Show me how the lancaster is used in ah is anywhere near how it was used in real life.
It certainly doesnt simulate its usage in rl . Check heinkels film.
And btw if you get offended by someones opinion about a game then relax man. :)
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Fluff pilots have no skill? geeze i never thought of that .... I thought it was just because they couldn't afford a joystick or that they had a heart condition or sumthin.
lazs
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Originally posted by Midnight
.........the MA will continue to be a mindless slugfest.
HTC's input and actions over the last 2 years (these are all I can speak to) have made it abundantly clear that a mindless slugfest is exactly what the MA is and always will be. It's pointless to argue for anything different in the MA.
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Believe me, I have thick skin. It comes from a long history of duking it out with lazs about Buff drivers and their alleged lack of skill.
As for Heinkels film....well that's just ignorant. That kind of use of the Lanc, (Which I refuse to fly) is so gamey, it's beyond comprehension.
My bomber group, as part of the MAW (Yeah, I know, the Marines did'nt use B-17's) train hard and use the heavies exactly the way they were intended. We fly box formations to strategic targets, and carpet bomb the area. We use set flight plans, have assigned targets, flight leads, and a very close command structure.
This is what I enjoy. But you have to remember, your talking to a guy who used to enjoy flying 737's from point A to Point B in MSFS2k. I guess I'm easily amused.
And when I need my quick fix, there's always my Hellcat. But if you look at my stats, you'll see where my flight time is heavily weighted.
This is how my group flies. Its our style, and we don't expect anyone else to do the same.
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Pedalling the same anti buff sentiment as usual, well at least you're now showing you're true colour's in this thread :rolleyes: Like flying any other aircraft is more skillfull :rolleyes:
The main isnt about realism or immersion, it never was. Its about air combat. The only thing I want "real" are the fms and ballist model. Anything else you are just fooling yourself.
You just want a mindless dogfight arena. Aces High is about waging virtual war between three countries hence the field capture, bombers and strat system.
As for me wanting an arcade arena I fly/participate in more events and the like then I have ever seen you in. No ah aint the only game I ever played.
Flown in plenty and AH is not my first online sim either
Same anti-bomber sentiment roadkill from the same people, the same players who seem to want some kind of arcade flight sim so they can pump another quarter in the slot and go shoot things again.
All those things I said you claimed in my previous are true. If deny it you are a liar.
Then post a quote of me asking for an unfair rebuild time for hangars or any ground object you won't find one.
Whether it be "unfair" or "fair" is of no concern to me at all in so far as it doesnt impact my ability to have fun. You have called for crator damage on the runway to prevent folks from taking off. You have called for "attrition" that limits the ability for folks to fly where they want.
No it's no concern for you because you cannot find one unreasonable request. Why is crater damage unrealistic why is attrition unrealistic? you just don't want it because it spoils your arcade-like vision of Aces High.
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You know I am right, You know that putting the victory conditionas on strat puts the burden on the bomber pilots, far more real then anything you offer.
Where did I mention skill about anything? Let alone bomber skills?
You are inserting your words own into my statements. I never said "unfair" you did. Quit lying. You have asked for structure downtime to be longer in the main.
As those things I attribute to you, (craters, attrition etc) show a pattern. Its not me who wants to limit folks fun but you. I have np with strat or "win the war" folks. But you feel that fort AH to be less arcade that it should be harder for folks to fly where, when and what they want.
The main shouldnt be set up to reflect some half arsed scenario rules that do more to limit folks fun that it does anything else. Thats why. Theres nothing realistic about main gameplay and theres nothing more "arcade" (your word) then the endless waves of suicide land grabbers. You wanna see an example of "arcade" watch heinkels film. Thats what we have now. It only gets worse with your suggestions because it intensifies the impact of this behavior with spawn limits, longer down times and holes that kill you all over the airfield.
Shifting the reset conditions to something other then base capture and onto strat targets is for "more" real then folks logging off because the main sucks because no one can even take off to have fun.
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if peter piper perked a pack of perk planes , how many perk planes did peter piper perk?
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Originally posted by john9001
if peter piper perked a pack of perk planes , how many perk planes did peter piper perk?
trick question. peter piper is over in WW2OL.
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Originally posted by Wotan
I used love to up to catch bombers ib to hq.
Especially when in a 110-G2
...-Gixer
The Horse Soldiers
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You are inserting your words own into my statements. I never said "unfair" you did. Quit lying. You have asked for structure downtime to be longer in the main.
You keep going on how I want to limit players fun :rolleyes: and insinuate that I want things my own way. I point out not one of my suggestions is unfair or unrealistic to set the record straight. I'm not lying I'm just pointing out how full of toejam you are.
Point out why craters or attrition is unrealistic?
This all boils down to you wanting some arcade arena setup that means you can fly whatever you want and to hell with the rest of the players who look for something a little more realistic.
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do any of you cats ever just login, fly and have any fun?
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Originally posted by Rude
do any of you cats ever just login, fly and have any fun?
is the pizza map gone yet?
:rolleyes:
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God Shane, I was just thinking the same thing.
I'm not going to whine about the Pizza, but this map is a nightmare for a Heavy Pilot.
Trying to bomb VH's in 10,000 foot crevaces, taking off from runways that look like they were built inside Volcano craters.....
I know the AKs worked hard on it, but I sure do hate this map.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Trying to bomb VH's in 10,000 foot crevaces, taking off from runways that look like they were built inside Volcano craters.....
Humm, sound like jabo work to me. And who garunteed you could take off from any feild in any direction?
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This thread was pretty good till it turned into a full fledged pissing match by some.
Anywho: I’ don’t mind the occasional compressed aircraft, or the brain fart that we ALL sometime suffer from as we go splat into a structure. However there are entire squads that seem to have adopted a pork and auger attitude. I encountered 1 particular dweeb squadron this week that I knew from Air Warrior where they were a bunch of all out pork and auger dweebs… However even the lame “no skill” can not be bad for so long and so consistently.
Thus I have to conclude that they are actually thinking that they are using a legit tactic to get noticed! Well I got news for squads like this-you do get noticed!!! As DWEEBS. I watched this squad launch 7 different auger attacks either in 51s or my beloved Typhoon. Their sole goal was to drop bombs somewhere near the field and take out and pork as much as possible—thankfully they have not “mastered” dive bombing so damage was minimal.
On the other hand I had LOTS –O- FUN following these guys around and getting proxy kills as they augured near me—then I picked off the stragglers. I don’t think suiciders can be stopped but they can be definitely laughed at and can provide hours of entertainment. :D
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To somehow control the thing that started this thread, I don't have any idea on how it can be curved or stopped. But on a parallel to it, what actual hindrance does bombing strat targets do? Bombing ack, ammo and fuel factories should at least have some "trickle" down affect on fighter usage in an area.
As far as I know, buffing airbases is about the only means of causing a country any hurt. There tends to be an unlimited supply of fuel, ammo, ack and fighter production. As it stands, the only real use for anyone wanting to fly a buff is to hit a base or HQ for radar. Now before I get slammed on the buff issue, it is a part of the game. And strat bombing on all these facilities should have some small affect on the way fighters are handled. Just like when airfeilds in the area are down on fuel supply, some make sure to try to reload than to get a fresh plane. That way they can still get a full load as long as they keep their plane intact.
IMO, factories zoned in a particular area should have likewise affect for bases in that area. Thus causing any pilot that want a full supply load capability to keep the plane flying and try to land.
Aircraft factories are not an issue on any map here, so it wouldn't stop the type of aircraft available, just the loadout. Also would make some pay more attention to country assets (which currently noone seems to watch). Just a thought, but I know the hardcore ftr jocks hate anything buff.
Ever notice how a country scrambles to protect the HQ or to resupply it fast. Losing an radar sucks, wouldn't the other areas have the same affect if people knew that they might lose 100% fuel, ack support or full ammo loadout.
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Kaz-
In answer to your question, the Level Bomber Group of the Marine Air Wing has investigated and begun operations against Strategic targets.
Though it may sound complex, it's really quite simple. Each zone is resupplied by the city in that Zone plus the various factories. Bombing the factories will seriously delay the rebuild time of their corresponding products . I have notes on the numbers but I believe the rebuild time for a factory is 2 hours without outside resupply. Now, during those 2 hours, the corresponding facilites at the fields in the zone will not rebuild (Ack, Fuel, Barrack, etc.) To compound the situation, if the City in the ZOne is destroyed, the factory rebuild time increases, to what measure I cannot recall.
It is my understanding that HTC is planning on making the Zone Cities more vulnerable to carpet bombing, making the Strategic element more important to the overall map.
I can tell you from experience, taking bases is much easier with the zone city and factories destroyed.
You'll be seeing more and more of this from our Squadron.
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Strategic System Explained (http://www.hitechcreations.com/map.html)
Read it yourself, but in a nut shell...
City Supplies Factory - City has 3 hour downtime now (Big "C" on map)
Factory Supplies Airfield - Factory Downtime with City 100% dead 3 hours - (less time in proportion for how much city is dead)
Airfield Targets - Hangars 15 minutes, Town buildings 45 minutes. Everything else 2 Hours (If the corresponding factory is 100% dead - less dead time in proportion for how much that p factory is dead)
Example: If AAA factory is dead 100%, and kept 100% dead (and best way to assure this is to first 100% kill the "big C" City), all airfields getting supplies from there will have to wait 2 hours for their aaa guns to regenerate, or fly in several resupply goons. A desireable outcome yes?
So you see there is a big strat system, but a lot of people never read the directions or just don't care I guess :)
edit to add examples with impact to effect planes:
If Refinery is 100% dead, and kept 100% dead (again best way to keep dead is to first kill the "big C" city), alll airfields in that zone will have to wait 2 hours for destroyed fuel to regenerate at that field
If Ammo factory is 100% dead, all airfields in that zone will have to wait 2 hours for more bombs to regenerate after the ordnance is killed at that airfield.
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Thx for the info, as to reading up on it, never knew where its was located on strat objects. I have to admit, I haven't read the manual in 8 months or so.
But with the way you both have listed the results, it would seem to be a very effective hindrance to nmy. If another country takes over a base in the "zone", does it also affect it if the city and factories are still down? or does the new occupants own city/factories take over control since area cities/factories cannot chg hands?
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The strat rarely works in practice....
To have much of an impact you must:
First flatten city to 0%
then flatten factory to 0% (waste of time in a buff so use jabos)
then hit base...
A large squad might be able to achieve this within an hour with large coordinated strikes on the city and factory.
If there are 2 cities per side... guess what? ... ya gotta flatten both.
Soooo... while the factory and the city might be at 0% it doesn't affect a thing until the base is damaged.
It takes a huge effort to really take advantage of the strat targets... Its not something you can just login and 'do'. I'd imagine the average player logs in for maybe 1.5hrs at a time, so its hardly worth starting as you won't be able to reap the benefits...
Hmm benefits...? less targets to shoot at are hardly benefits ...
SKurj
P.S. woohooooooo!! 100...
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Hmm benefits...? less targets to shoot at are hardly benefits
exactly
but in the strat zones it works. Yes it will effect the base you just captured. Thats why some folks get pissed when some pork everything on the field. That forces guys to spend time resuppling it.
Capture the large airfield and you own the strat zone. This means none of the nme owned fields in that zone get resupplied and the rebuild time for objects on that field go to 2 hours.
Intercepting trains and trucks also interrupt the supply cycle.
The strat is rather complex on one hand but with quickly resupply hqs for instance it takes a bit of co-ordination. Too much for most folks. And as Skurj says the only real benefit is having less guys to fight. Those not having fun because they cant fly and fight where they want will log. Flying more then 2 sectors to a fight is a good way to get folks to log.
Skurj made a good suggestion about moving fronts etc instead of direct field capture. Read my suggestion above. Right now theres no need to play a true strat game when you can just run 30 suicide jabos at a field over and over until the reset. By changing the reset conditions to strat and production you would see a shift from the rolling gangbang to the Strat. This may or may not mean more "co-ordination". That would depend on the conditions.
However you look at it making the main a place where its a hassel to get to a fight in the plane you want would be the fastest way to push it into decline.
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Heh yup Wotan brought up a point i forgot all about...
Porking the strat in a zone will more than likely hinder your team as much or more than the enemy. You pork strat, capture the zone controlling field and ruh oh... your stuff won't rebuild...
Benefits?...... what benefits?
SKurj
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I don't think that's correct, Skurj, and if it is, it is illogical.
Imagine the strat is not porked, and we capture a field in the zone. Why would enemy Strat equiptment resupply our newly captured field anyway? Are these fields cut off altogether from resuppply, or do they get resupplied based on the Strat of the nearest friendly start zone?
So, in converse, why would damaged enemy strat have any impact on resupplying a field we capture?
Did that make any sense? I'm not sure.
Now I'm confused.
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I understand what ya'll are saying. But wotan, you do make one important point.... that if or when it becomes a hassle to fly fighters then it will decline. I'm not a straight advocate for fighter or buff (lol, I suck at both, but have fun trying) but there must some middle ground in overall play that where all aspects have somewhat of an affect of outcome. I don't know where that would be at, but as for most the threads that have been reading for a month or 2 is fighter impact and jabo suicide stoppage.
Not that in no way would I every say that fighters are not a important part, if THE important part of the game. But if strat and it's affects can't have an impact on the game in a moderate means, then the game will stay the way it is as a "hurry and take bases for reset". I have to admit that I would like things to slow down a bit when it comes to that way of playing. Most of my enjoyment comes from fronts shifting and using alternative strategies. Some of the best fights in my opinion have been the "back-and-forth" fights for same few sectors of territory. But sadly, those sometimes hours of fighting and strategy end when others are in the mode of fastest reset.
It's a great game, not really a sim. The idea of using fronts versus base captures as criterias seems intriguing, wouldn't have a clue how to set it up though. Still, would like to see where everything has it's piece of the pie in importance on territorial outcome. Which who knows, might make some give thoughts on preserving their plane or worst yet.....consider their country as a whole.
Just my imputs, didn't mean to drag it out..... But thx again for all the info
KAZ
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no muckmaw if you kill the fuel/ammo at base in a strat zone where strat is controlled by the enemy then the base wont repair or be resupplied.
Thats why people get mouthy about that. Especially if they intend to use the field to follow up a strike with another using that field.
The only way to resupply it is to get 2 or 3 guys to fly in supplies.
If you dont kill these structures you need not worry about resupply from any source. Its not until they are destroyed that resupply comes into play.
As long as they are up they stay indefinately supplied.
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Originally posted by Wotan
The only way to resupply it is to get 2 or 3 guys to fly in supplies.
And guess what - it would seem AH doesn't score that. You get some buff perks, that is it. Otherwise it hurts your score as it goes go down as a buff sortie with no result.
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Originally posted by MwKAZ
Thx for the info, as to reading up on it, never knew where its was located on strat objects. I have to admit, I haven't read the manual in 8 months or so.
But with the way you both have listed the results, it would seem to be a very effective hindrance to nmy. If another country takes over a base in the "zone", does it also affect it if the city and factories are still down? or does the new occupants own city/factories take over control since area cities/factories cannot chg hands?
in the new maps (the only one of which we have right now is Pizza) you capture the strat factories etc by capturing the "Zone Master" airfield. Then those factories are your factories and you get the resupply that zone, not the enemy. (the Zone Master Fields are the ones where all those white lines meet.)
Two guys who have taken the trouble to learn how to bomb properly can pretty much total the strat in a zone (or even a whole country on the old maps) by themselves - but with some organization greater things are possible.
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Going back to the original subject, perhaps if it were worth peoples' whiles to land safely then they might do so. The amount of perks you get for destroying (for example) a factory area is pathetically low especially considering the number of acks you must kill, even considering the 'land safely' bonus. If the perks were significant then you might get people trying to land them.
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Just remember some bombers going to cv have to fight off fighters just to see same fighter lift off cv and try to shoot him again. And your complaint is just about bombers. when in fact people can respawn fighters if they die but you only want to stop bombers.
Lets include guys who pad some players scores by trying to take off over and over again at cap field. I would like to see a 5-10 min time limit on planes you can fly from same base.
This means you can only takeoff from airfield 10 in a fighter or bomber every 5 mins say. this could slow down bombers going to cv and control guys respawning over and over again at fields. Including GV's
Some vh bases you smoke a guys gv all he does is respawn in a new one. So 1 guy becomes 15 if time limit is gone.
I think this time limit would be great for pizza map. no more do u have to kill then kill again same guy spawning at your city. and it would stop those who spawn over and over near city letting troops out hoping you can't kill them all.
If you are a bomber going to cv and do a suicide run on cv you have to wait 5 mins or go to another base. and if you kill a fighter from cv he can't retake off cv just to keep trying to kill bomber.
This would make CAP's a much needed tatic. instead of 7 guys uping over and over to defend against 7 guys attacking. should be if 7 guys attack base kill all 7 men at airfield should be there base. but in here 7 guys defending can turn into those 7 guys respawning 30 40 times at same field.
p.s. Making bombs only work over land takes out reality. as most ships were hit by dive bombers. more than tbm's in 10 mins time.
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Yes muck, if you capture a field in an enemy zone i don't think it supplies AT ALL.
If you capture the zone controlling field, any of the factories in that zone you damaged... well that pain now counts against you as your bases (within the zone) will now be supplied at a rate determined by the damaged factories.
SKurj
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qts if you had read the thread you will see where that arguement is countered.
Very few folks fly for score or perks. However, its aparent that "winning the war" means more these folks then anything else.
You will never get away from this unlesss you change what it takes to "win".
That is shifting victory / reset conditions away from field capture to something else.
Theres folks in ah with thousands of perk points who care nothing about flying perk planes.
Folks wanna feel apart of the "winning".
Some just hate the idea of others being able to fly at all. So they offer "attrition" or for making it easier to stop fighters from upping.
Thats just nuts. I know quite a few folks who would most likely quit AH then put up with an arena where theres only a very limited opportunity to fly what where and when they want.
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I'm not sure I entirely agree with you Wotan. But I don't disagree either.
What I'm suggesting is altering the balance between strat and combat - making more worth while to go for strat targets. Also, if a new player knows he's earned a decent number of perks, he might make more of an effort to land them. Then, as he gets better, he's still in the habit of trying to land his perks. I will say that personally, I find it quite dispiriting to do so much on the strategy side and get so little reward. Take up a Tiffie and de-ack (that's 5 acks) and lay waste to a factory area and see how many perks you get on landing. A newer player might consider that it's not worth the effort.
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These guys that are committing suiciode in their jabo raids dont care about score or perks.
Watch heinkels film, that guy aint worried about score or perks.
Perk planes arent a reward for anything. Theres folks with thousands of perks who never fly them.
These people wanna win. They think they are helping their side. They think these missions represent a level organization. They are more concerned with "mission succes" in the course of winning the war.
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Wotan, the guy in heinkels video is a moron.
The lancaster is the worst possible choice for such a bombing run.
A b26 is a far better choice, able to punch through fighters, and take the pounding from the fleet. Hell, if the cruiser is dead, the whole b26 formation can often survive the attack. Also, you do get something like four perks for killing a CV, even if you die.
The use of level bombers as dive bombers is a case of the game being broken. Level bombing is essentially worthless, so divebombing is the only accurate way to use them. Expecting people to use inaccurate level bombing instead of unrealistic divebombing is ridiculous.
The only way to stop people from "Gaming the game" is to make the game the way it should be played. In order to stop people from divebombing in lancs, level bombing needs to be as, or more effective. If we want suicide attacks to stop, then surviving needs to carry some major advantage, or dying needs to have a punishment that affects people who don't care about scores. (Take a look at my post concerning limiting planes per-user)
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Limit the number of times someone can die in single plane type from a single base.
In other words, you can launch from A? with a P51 and die only a couple of times, if you land safely, you can re-up as much as you like. Face it, in reality air bases do not have an unlimited supply of hardware.
Realism in the sim is more of a priority with some of us than others, so it is difficult for AH to enforce those types of rules without hurting revenue ( I would imagine).
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So, what's the solution to the pork and auger types?
What about ZERO points and ZERO perks unless landed safely for attack missions only. That wouldn't stop the ones that don't care about rank and score but I'd bet it would thin the numbers out a bit.
Those that will pork and auger just to facilitate a field capture aren't concerned about points, perks or rank and will do so unless and untill HTC decides that that isn't the way they want the MA to be.
Virtual life is too danged cheap IMO ;)
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Originally posted by MwRod
This would make CAP's a much needed tatic. instead of 7 guys uping over and over to defend against 7 guys attacking. should be if 7 guys attack base kill all 7 men at airfield should be there base. but in here 7 guys defending can turn into those 7 guys respawning 30 40 times at same field.
This is one of the most annoying features of the game. A small tactical strike unit can attack field, and unless they destroy all the hangers, they end up facing a defending force of 20, 30 even 40 enemy, even though there may be only 5 or 6 guys actually running the defense.
Rebuild times of structures just about preclude running squad missions to destroy fields, if the objective is to cause the enemy any real problems.
The 412th was running missions last night, where we would go up, fly to an enemy field, bomb all the FHs, shoot down the defenses and then go back to re-arm. Our goal was to move to the next field back on the next mission, but by the time we RTBd, re-armed and re-fueled, re-regrouped, took off and flew back, the FHs were already back up at the first field we had attacked. We ended up bombing the same FHs 4 or 5 times at the same field.
IMO,
Hanger down time should be extended to 30 minutes.
Players should get a fixed amount of lives per hour. Once you use all of your lives for the hour, you can only get gunner positions, or M3s/C47s/LVTs with supplies.
Supplies should be limited and be used and regenerated as in other 'strategy' games.
People will say they don't like the idea, but just image how many supply vehicles you would see out there lugging supplies to pass time.
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midnight ...stop it ...your starting to make sense.
44MAG