Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: EvilDingo on October 17, 2002, 12:35:27 AM
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Tonight absolutely sucked in AH. And I don't mean me sucking (cause I suck all the time), I mean the gameplay experience.
There are a few elements in the AH game design that baffle me (along with frustrate/annoy me) that I had to post my OPINION on them.
First of all. Rooks. The problem isn't really the fact that there are 3 countries. The problem is whoever is god on the Bishops and Knights feel that they nearly always need to reset the Rooks. So here we are on the dreadful Pizza map (more on that later) with no radar and a handful of fields for HOURS. DAYS.
If you're a Rook, you're in for one hell of a toejam gameplay experience. This is because flying with no radar for any length of time is NO FUN.
NO RADAR = NO FUN.
Why was this ever implemented? Sure, on the small maps when your dar is gone the war is going to be won soon after. Not on Pizza. The HQ is a hundred zillion miles away and surrounded by enemy fields, but us valiant Rooks are holding on to... 30+ FREAKING FIELDS! This translates into several hours without dar. Rooks wont give up. I wont give up. But I wont play when all I do is fly around chasing dots.
There needs to be a new way to cripple a country that doesn't involve a single set of structures. Why not a few large HQ concentrations whose radar covers a portion of the country? This way, the strat guys can knock out a radar station when they need to, and the REST OF THE ENTIRE COUNTRY wont suffer for hours on end flying blind.
Next. Night. Now I don't know a single person who likes night, and my friends and I usually all log off when the sun sets. Night does look good. It has atmopshere! What it doesn't have is gameplay. You can only fight at night if you crank the brightness on your monitor WAY up.
I would like to have night. I don't want night blacker than coal, no matter how 'realistic' blacker than coal nights are. Dim the lights, maybe make the sky a rich dark blue, but keep it bright enough to fly and fight in. That keeps the atmophere and the gameplay. Lots of flight simulations have night time that is still very playable.
Beeker
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Ive played on rooks with a few buds... the problem isnt the Bishops... and it isnt the Kniggits, its the Rooks. Ive never seen such a lack of communication. Hardly ever any green text and if you want a six call, forget it. Rooks seem to be a collection of individual hunters than a collective base taking group like MAW... err the kniggits I mean.
As for night: I dont think It will be taken out, although Ill admit I log when the sun sets... what about finding a way to incorporate night fighters in AH?
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EvilDingo
Radar area idea is very good!
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I'll second what Sardaukar said, Rooks are not talkin' to each other, not on country channel that is. About a month ago, I decided to take a break & visit the other two countries.
Flew Rook at 1st, lots of very nice poeple there... but you have about 20 seconds delay between every text on channel 2. I realy had the feeling I was flying in a ghost town! (except of course for Mindanao's "A44")
PS: Isn't the Strat/HQ system different in the Pizza map ? I thought it was partitionned, so that if you took out an HQ, it would only take out that pizza portion's radar out... perhaps I'm mistaken.
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I remember that SAW. You were talking too much. I couldnt concentrate to gameplay because of so much green text. :D :D
Shut up and defend this airfield. :D hehe...
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Originally posted by Saintaw
I'll second what Sardaukar said, Rooks are not talkin' to each other, not on country channel that is. About a month ago, I decided to take a break & visit the other two countries.
Flew Rook at 1st, lots of very nice poeple there... but you have about 20 seconds delay between every text on channel 2. I realy had the feeling I was flying in a ghost town! (except of course for Mindanao's "A44")
PS: Isn't the Strat/HQ system different in the Pizza map ? I thought it was partitionned, so that if you took out an HQ, it would only take out that pizza portion's radar out... perhaps I'm mistaken.
At least the Rooks are nice to each other. Over the last 2 tours my squad flew Knits and are now Bish. Knits are fairly cordial folks.. except when you bomb out the last hangar and ruin a vulchfest (rofl). The Bish?... thats a differen't story. If the Bish took 1/4 of the energy they expend squeaking at EACH OTHER and directed it towards the game... I'm sure the Knits/Rooks would NEVER see another reset lol.
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My squad often go after the HQ, it's by no means an easy target to get to, we often pass by a number of airfields to get there and over many swarms of aircraft. If you're not going to bother to shoot down those bombers then don't be surprised when you lose your radar. The radar inflight is enough of a concession in AH with the way it works anyway.
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I feel I must agree with EvilDingo. Last night suxed bigtime. Flying “blind” with no radar, knowing that the enemy does not, is kind of frustrating. We got Dar up again, albeit for a short time when we assaulted A39, the closest enemy base to our HQ. The assault failed however, and we were soon flying blind again.
Night fighting is (to me) exciting, however I would like it to be pitch black with little or no visual reference points, and to have dedicated radar equipped night-fighters in the game (with realistic radar mind you, not like we’ve got now).
On the radar issue, I would gladly see the whole radar-setup gone. Takes away much of the fun IMO. The “grid-counters” (dunno what they’re actually called) more accurately represent the accuracy of WWII radar networks and communications, leaving some element of “hunting” in the game.
Btw. Revvin. Our HQ was located BEHIND enemy lines yesterday!
As you probably have guessed, I’m a “simmer”, not a “gamer”. I do not expect anything of this will be implemented seeing that it would take away some of the fun for the “gamers”, however I can hope … can’t I? So … I guess I’m just voicing my opinion.
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Happy Rook camper here.
With regards to what EvilDingo says.....well....
In my most humble opinion, and judging by subjective experience from my "reentre", It's not fair blaming on lack of communication when the most important factor to blame is numbers.
I won't discuss if Rookland has more or less social skills as the rest of you. I have no oppinion on this subject, as I had flown only Rook from the very beginning, and can't judge what I don't know, but the fact is that we have been outnumbered for the whole 3 hours I've been online by a good 30% by *both* Bish & Knit countries. Nothing to worry about tho, mo' ta'guts. With regards to the "Social Skills" issue, I think Rookland fits my own's nicely :D
I have to sincerely thank Bishland and Knitland for they are making us a bunch of leathernecks, used to tough jobs against superior odds, often blind. If you give us enough time (and, if all Rooks are as dumb as me, it will be a lengthy issue), we will certainly be the most competent individuals in AHland.....or, if you want Teamwork, the best lone-pilot teams... :D
Cheers,
Pepino
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Originally posted by GScholz
Btw. Revvin. Our HQ was located BEHIND enemy lines yesterday!
SHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!....Damn spy!...You know how hard combined effort it took to place it like that????.....
Duh, our cloaked device uncovered. :D
Cheers,
Pepe
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Originally posted by Pepe
SHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!....Damn spy!...You know how hard combined effort it took to place it like that????.....
Duh, our cloaked device uncovered. :D
Cheers,
Pepe
Doh! Sorry Pepe, won’t happen again. :D
Btw, our cloak didn’t seem to be working properly last night. At least the enemy were unimpressed. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Ive played on rooks with a few buds... the problem isnt the Bishops... and it isnt the Kniggits, its the Rooks. Ive never seen such a lack of communication. Hardly ever any green text and if you want a six call, forget it. Rooks seem to be a collection of individual hunters than a collective base taking group like MAW... err the kniggits I mean.
As for night: I dont think It will be taken out, although Ill admit I log when the sun sets... what about finding a way to incorporate night fighters in AH?
This is the end result of the perpetual gangbang that has been going on since 1.02-1.03 or so. 95% of the folks who actually care for the strat side have long since left the Rooks for the bish or nits. And while the Rooks generally have the best pilots, they are only concerned with furballing 95% of the time.
The pizza map just brings into focus the problems of the gameplay in this situation. While, as said, on all other maps once the enemy is in position to constantly vulch the HQ as soon as it pops up, pizza map is different. Get a country isolated on the outter rim of one of the wedges and the fun factor takes a serious nose dive. And with the numbers the bish and nits usually have over the rooks it's impossible for the rooks break out. If we manage to get a raid past the front lines 20+ defenders take off to intercept our raid of 12 aircraft as soon as our target starts flashing. It's an exercise in frustration.
Maybe if the HQ's and main fields near them were centered behind the wedge's instead of at the end of the peace sign rivers it would be a little better. For the gameplay anyway, since getting backed into the center of a wedge wouldn't mean no radar for 12+ hours.
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I have no idea what was going on with the rooks, never saw one, but down at bottom of map Knights and bishops were haveing a huge war all night.
When map starts everyone has their HQ surrounded by friendly fields. I guess it is up to each person to decide what is most important/fun to defend, and who they want to fly with.
If it is not fun, don't do it. This is a silly online game. There is nobody forcing anyone to fly where it is not fun, if you want to stay in a bad situation - nobody made that decision for you, that was your choice.
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I've been flying Rook for over a year. I got fed up and switched to Bish.
What a surprise! Mission after mission after large scale 20+ aircraft mission.
IMHO, the Rooks don't get resets because they don't do strat. They furball.
Certainly, there are exceptions, the Original Flying Tigers and Flying Pigs come to mind. They are quite often playing the strat game, but on the whole there's just not as much strat activity in Rookland as there is in Bishland.
I can't speak for the Knits...
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Image for message above that didn't make it
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I am a rook, but I am happy with the country I am in. I am in a great squad that has about 35 members (81st Krewsaders), and either on our squad night, or when enough of us log on, we tear bellybutton across enemy fields. The problem is indeed the numbers, but there are some really good squads on the Rook side. When these squads have numbers, they can do some damage to the enemy. You just have to know where to look on the Rook side and you will find the communication and the co-operation that half the rooks dont show. Yes, some rooks are hosers and dont care about capping fields, they just furball. Then they cant understand why they lose. Which brings up a funny story about that same situation. On one day.......................... .................
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I find most of what's said about us Rooks to be true, but I must add one note:
I think it's a question of methods. The Bish and Knit seem to be more organized, using the mission builder. Us Rooks seem to be more loose, forming small "teams" using the channels rather than flying missions. Our big assault on A39 last night where 20+ pilots participated were organized in such a manner. Loadouts and tactics were discussed on channel and agreed upon. If I remember correctly we had a 9-ship formation of heavy Ju88's coming in from the north while fighters upped from a nearby CV to distract the defense. I upped from another AF and joined with the bombers about halfway to the target, flying close escort along with another fighter.
Of course ... our assault failed, but I'm not sure we would have faired any better had we used the mission builder. It was a long range mission and we were outnumbered from the start ... :rolleyes:
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evil... I agree. nothjing worse than the pizza map unless it is being without dar and outnumbered on the pizza map. I don't want to not have dar and I don't want the country I am fighting to not have dar..
The rooks are for the most part... the best fights so that is why I fight them. I go where the action is. I don't want the rooks (or any side) to have no dar.
IMO... the fact that the dar can be knocked out is one of the reasons for the lopsided numbers. No one wants to fly from a country that is constantly blind.
lazs
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Oh... and one other thing...
Comms... Rook comms on the green channel are wide open. In Bishland, the green channel is treated like an open channel. Targets are not discussed. Objectives are not discussed.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
I've been flying Rook for over a year. I got fed up and switched to Bish.
What a surprise! Mission after mission after large scale 20+ aircraft mission.
Originally posted by GScholz
I think it's a question of methods. The Bish and Knit seem to be more organized, using the mission builder.
Gee.. I wonder.. where did the widespread use of the mission planner start......
Hey Zigrat, got a guess on this one? :D
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There are Rooks that use the builder...
That isn't the problem. The problem is no one joins the missions.
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If I show up and see PIZZA MAP...I log off.
If I show up and see no DAR....I log off.
If I show and see we are 30% outnumbered...but we have dar and non-pizza....I love killing lots of red buds. they are good for my guns :)
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I've been Rook now for about a month and a half, since the squad I am in rotated into Rook Land. Being in a squad reduces some of the pain of no organization...me and the guys go do our thing and have fun with it. No dar...well, no surprise. The biggest surprises are base captures...much less 2 in a row or so.
I've posted several missions as a Rook and given up. We have many Napoleons but few wanna do anything en masse. I don't know if its because we are a group of Lone Wolfs or what...when Rooks get a reset, its truly an occasion. Buy lottery tickets on those nights...anything is possible! :D
Is it frustrating? Sometimes...the Pizza Map gets old fast. Its too big, and around too long for *my* liking.
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If it is not fun, don't do it. This is a silly online game. There is nobody forcing anyone to fly where it is not fun, if you want to stay in a bad situation - nobody made that decision for you, that was your choice.
I've been a Rook since I started playing AH. I orginally joined because Rooks seemed to be the underdog and that's the kind of game I like to play. Switching countries isn't the answer to the gameplay problem that having no radar causes.
I think the system can be balanced better so that the strat people can do what they want without destroying the playerbase of an entire country.
Beeker
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Go San Diego Chargers!!!
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Originally posted by Revvin
My squad often go after the HQ, it's by no means an easy target to get to, we often pass by a number of airfields to get there and over many swarms of aircraft. If you're not going to bother to shoot down those bombers then don't be surprised when you lose your radar. The radar inflight is enough of a concession in AH with the way it works anyway.
Revvin.. don't be so ignorant. On the Pizza map, HQ is within 10 miles of an elevated field. The Rook's HQ was on the West edge, and all the Rook fields were in the North East corner. There was no way for Rooks to defend HQ from anything. It was at least a four sector flight from our closest base to HQ.
And don't go starting with the 'you should have defended it better' BS either. When a country is outnumbered 2--1 or more, there is no way to defend anything so long as the enemy keeps pushing on the same target.
Last night, and the night before were just plain stupid for game play. As I said in another post, reset conditions need to be looked at and changed. It needs to be tied to strats and HQ, not just getting the enemy down to one field.
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This whole radar system is rediculous. How the hell can shipboard radar be effected by bombing HQ??!!
Do away with HQ controlled bar-dar, make each base an independent radar site. Each 4 sector block should have a master radar station that can be knocked out of service, blacking out those sector's bar-dar. However, maximum height to be below dar should be reduced to 50 feet. This will allow for different methods of stealth attacks. Do away with blinking map icons altogether and bar-dar in enemy sectors. The enemy should not know what is flying at your bases until they actually get there.
In other words, attackers must sneak in very low under dar, kill sector block radar station which then allows the sectors to be transited without detection, unless they fly within the range of field radar.
HQ should be a command, control and communications center. If it is damaged or destroyed, radar will only be available in the sector block you are in, and all country text (not field text or radio coms) are down until HQ is repaired. This will introduce real command and control problems to game play and add a measure of additional "real feel" to the game.
My regards,
Widewing
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Hmmm.....
I vote for widewing's points. :)
Cheers,
Pepino
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Those are interesting ideas, Wide.
Did Navy ships of the time even have radar? If so, I'm sure it was very limited.
And if they had radar, why did they need and use scout planes?
I like you idea about having a radar station controlling a 4 block grid. However, I think taking out that station should eliminate radar for the entire 4 block grid, without having to destory the radar at the field.
As far as you HQ idea goes, it's very compelling, but you'll anger alot of people. Imagine how many would log if they could not just pop on and find out where the fight was via channel 2?
I like the HQ idea, but I am not sure others wil approve.
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NICE IDEA!!! Widewing :)
i am with you (S)
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Those are interesting ideas, Wide.
Did Navy ships of the time even have radar? If so, I'm sure it was very limited.
And if they had radar, why did they need and use scout planes?
I suspect that there were range issues on air search radars. Clutter rejection, amplitude, you name it.
Also... The best thing to do would be to hit the aircraft carrier while the planes are still on deck.
For surface search radars, the limitation is the horizon.
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Midnight> What stops two or three planes capping the HQ? ..nothing that's what! and don't give the 'oh we did'nt have the numbers BS' there is no excuse.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Those are interesting ideas, Wide.
Did Navy ships of the time even have radar? If so, I'm sure it was very limited.
And if they had radar, why did they need and use scout planes?
I like you idea about having a radar station controlling a 4 block grid. However, I think taking out that station should eliminate radar for the entire 4 block grid, without having to destory the radar at the field.
As far as you HQ idea goes, it's very compelling, but you'll anger alot of people. Imagine how many would log if they could not just pop on and find out where the fight was via channel 2?
I like the HQ idea, but I am not sure others wil approve.
Circa 1944, most forward Allied military fields had radar, usually a mobile unit (trucks with trailer). These were completely independent from search radar nets that were constructed in Britain.
So knocking out a portion of the net had no effect on local field radar. However, these radars had limited range and capability. Enough though to detect enemy aircraft and obatin a reasonable estimate of the number of aircraft.
By late 1943, American Task forces had radar that provided adequate info. By mid 1944, improved radar made approaching a USN task Force, undetected, very difficult.
One last item. Sector block radars should not have a map icon. Make the attacking force locate it visually. Granted, once they are all found, everyone will know where they are every time the maps rotate in. Nonetheless, without an icon it complicates the issue somewhat.
My regards,
Widewing
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My observations on Rookland strat:
1st - Numbers do have an impact. That's partially what we are seeing in Rookland.
2nd - In my opinion I would have to agree that we rooks don't seem to have it together regarding strat especially for the Pizza map. How much alike or different from other countries I cannot say. That is an observation I've made though- e.g. noticed the other night that instead of rollling up a bunch of bases where we could, everyone gravitated toward big fights instead. I'm not saying that this is neither bad nor good, just that at least in this case there was a lack of attention to strat.
3rd - a lot of the coordination in Rookland comes when the squads get together for combined operations. Outside of that it's hit or miss.
4th - I don't think we Rooks have quite the infamous mission planners that draws crowds like a Fariz, or a Ripsnort. The last was Zigrat. Maybe our Rookland generals should take notice to what makes Fariz, Ripsnort, and Zigrat missions so popular. I think it's too simple to put the blame for people not joining missions because rooks just want to furball. The same psychology exists in all 3 countries.
Notes on Radar:
I like Widewing's ideas.
Shipborne radar could detect a/c up to 150 miles. The reason for scout planes was to detect enemy surface vessels well beyond this range. Curvature of the earth has something to do with all this as well. I forget the range on mobile units. However recalling Guadacanal they were detecting a/c approaching around the 100 mile range I believe.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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blah blah blah rooks... can be replaced with blah blah blah knights or blah blah blah bishops on any given night.
I flew last Friday evening (US time.) Knights were getting ganged pretty hard and for once actually didn't have the most players on when I've been on. All we were able to do was defend that evening. We were without radar quite often during that time as well. I had me a good time that night. :)
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What really has you rooks upset about the Pizza map is the timing with which it was rotated in. If, the pizza map rotates in at the beginning of the weekend, enough rooks stay online throughout to reset the map within a day, or two. I recall having been confined to a four base situation (as a Bishop) not too long back, and it was rooks that did it. Why just last weekend you outnumbered us and you had up to 190 rooks online at once.
No, the problem is rooks are not mission oriented during the week. That and rooks have not learned the defense will get you nowhere. Bishops were in this boat just two months ago. It took quite a bit of effort to get them on the attack, but now they do fairly well. There are times when you just can't get anyone together even then!
Rooks sure don't have a problem finding the time to fill the channel 1 radio buffer, though.
I'm betting tomorrow night will see more rooks online.
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I disagree with WideWing. Perhaps it is gamey to have dar controlled by HQ, but arguing historical accuracy won't wash. The current range of dar is about accurate. Just think of the HQ as being the human chain, rather then the equipment chain. By bombing HQ you are hitting the mechanism by which the radar is interpreted and transmitted to pilots. This may not be an accurate interpretation of the system at wars end, but it certainly is acccurate for the early war period.
Limiting radar altitude to 50ft. has no historical basis. Ground reflectivity and clutter caused interference up to about 200ft, and so it should remain. It already isn't perfect, as someone may be behind a hill, yet above 200ft AGL, and so they show up on radar.
Bases flashing make it possible for you to find the fight. I do not believe that changing this would help rooks at all. To the contrary, I think rooks would be devastated by it.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
I've been flying Rook for over a year. I got fed up and switched to Bish.
What a surprise! Mission after mission after large scale 20+ aircraft mission.
IMHO, the Rooks don't get resets because they don't do strat. They furball.
Certainly, there are exceptions, the Original Flying Tigers and Flying Pigs come to mind. They are quite often playing the strat game, but on the whole there's just not as much strat activity in Rookland as there is in Bishland.
I can't speak for the Knits...
Switched to Bish? :rolleyes: :D
I was wondering why we have not seen you lately!
I could not make it for the Rook reset of the pizza map but I was involved quite a bit of the way.
We do missions but often they are squad oriented and planned on the channels. Many of them are very well executed and flown by competent pilots. Most can carry ord and jabo very well. Also, we usually have a goon on the way if it's been done appropriately. You are right about the Original Flying Tigers and Flying Pigs. There are usually not many of us but we tend to be very destructive when we work as a team. The Flying Tigers AVG or FTs are also a great squad and do some awesome missions.
The Rooks seem to do very well when we get the right combination of squads online. You see people doing things like:
- everybody brings ord (knowing how to kill VH and FHs as well as ack)
- goons in route
- coordination of strikes
I believe Rooks are more often in the low numbers and outnumbered but it's very rewarding when we take bases in that condition.
I really don't furball anymore and have not in a long time. I usually don't fly anywhere unless I am going to do one or more specific activities.
Nighttime and pizza map are OK for me. They will evolve as the game does. Nighttime is great for certain sneak activities.
I like to have radar but sometimes it is less stressful flying while carying bombs when you don't have radar. You don't get worried by red dots on the map as much.
It's fun going into an enemy base with a Yak especially medium sized and taking out all the ack while dragging this big stream of red guys. It sort of reminds me in Galaxy Quest when they were dragging mines. Yeah it's a suicide mission in a way because I eventually get killed but often I can drag this big hoard away while the cavalry is just arriving. to take out the FHs and VH ;)
I wish wizzer our CO would jump us to maybe Bish for one TOD but I believe he is little worried that we just couldn't get clean again. I once created another account and flew Bish and Knit for a little while. Afterwards I had to draw a nice bubble bath and put on a little Kenny G.
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Go San Diego Chargers!!!
And take the damn Padres with you!!
:D
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Originally posted by rogwar
Switched to Bish? :rolleyes: :D
I was wondering why we have not seen you lately!
It's my only regret... I love flying with the FT and FP... :)
Don't know, but I haven't seen many of you guys in the past few weeks. I'm sure everyone is flying, but we're just out of sync.
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Originally posted by Widewing
Do away with HQ controlled bar-dar, make each base an independent radar site. Each 4 sector block should have a master radar station that can be knocked out of service, blacking out those sector's bar-dar. However, maximum height to be below dar should be reduced to 50 feet. This will allow for different methods of stealth attacks. Do away with blinking map icons altogether and bar-dar in enemy sectors. The enemy should not know what is flying at your bases until they actually get there.
In other words, attackers must sneak in very low under dar, kill sector block radar station which then allows the sectors to be transited without detection, unless they fly within the range of field radar.
Only problem that I can see with this, Widewing, is that trees have a nasty habit of reaching up to just about 50 feet. I've wrapped planes around more than one trying to figure out how low I could go. Now if you wanted to keep the planes under 100 feet, that might work. You have to allow a little bit of room for manuevering and dodging trees.
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Originally posted by mjolnir
Only problem that I can see with this, Widewing, is that trees have a nasty habit of reaching up to just about 50 feet. I've wrapped planes around more than one trying to figure out how low I could go. Now if you wanted to keep the planes under 100 feet, that might work. You have to allow a little bit of room for manuevering and dodging trees.
Hmmm.... I was wondering where all those dents in the leading edge came from....
My regards,
Widewing
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It just boils down to communication. The rooks have none, zero, zip, nothing. The only voice I heard while flying for rooks was that of HISPD... after recognizing the CPID of course I switched back because I felt dirty... but thats besides the point! :D
The Bishland radio is ALWAYS running.. chatter chatter chatter - and none of it is non-game related (mostly). Hell, sometimes its difficult to have a conversation with squaddies because the range is squaking to often - "six!" "look out" "coming around" "turn him left, Ill get the bastard!" "thank you sir" - bottom line is rooks need to start talking if they want to get anywhere. Id love to fly for the underdog, but I hate the "alone" aspect - I might as well play IL2 singleplayer. ;)
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I like WW's idea.
Put a big dar tower in the middle of 4 sectors..knock it out, dar bar and dar dots go out for those 4 sectors. Field radar would only give out bar dar for things above 100 ft AGL.
Now, knock out HQ and you knock out bar dar and dot dar for fields where THE PLAYER is not in. So if player is in A1 field and HQ dies, he only sees bar dar and dot dar for the 4 sector grid in which A1 is in.