Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Midnight on October 17, 2002, 01:09:54 PM
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How many of you so-called 'skilled' players are actually gaming the game to get your high scores?
One example of 'gaming' is used a lot to either force overshoots, or prevent your plane from overshooting your target. Those of you who do it know what it is.
I try to fly my plane within the limits of what I understand to be physically possible with the airframe I have and the capacity of a human pilot.
So the question is, do you 'play it to the max' and game the game, or do you try to fly your plane in a way that is closer to how it could have actually been flown?
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It seems that you are implying that there is a way to slow your plane down in AH which can't be done in reality. How is it done?
ra
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Nope, I leave it on all the time...in flight anyway. Oops, you said high scorers. I'm disqualified.
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i fly the plane in a way as wich i do not turn into a rather nice ball of fire while making others suffer that fate.
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Sounds like Midnite got spanked by someone,,,
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i think that killing your engine in flight is about the least of the 'gaming' you can do in this game.
if you know what you're doing, it helps, but then again there were ways in WWII that you could do roughly the same thing with pitch control.
and for those aren't very good to begin with, all it does is make them an even easier target.
you can't paint a broad brush and imply that it helps you that much.
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Originally posted by Midnight
One example of 'gaming' is used a lot to either force overshoots, or prevent your plane from overshooting your target. Those of you who do it know what it is.
I personally use lot of different methods to force an overshoot, can you be more specific?
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I'm not sure what you mean, but does'nt the flight model limit what you can do in a plane based on the actual data?
The only things I use to force an overshoot are accepted methods of ACM. If there is something I can do to remain competitve that I don't know about, I'd sure like to hear it.
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Just this morning Panman and I were attempting to capture V6 from A7 (NDIsles). Just after I launch from A7 Panman calls over the radio (buffer) that a 262 is in the area. Very shortly after that I see the con on dar, but he quickly disappears (he's under dar). So, I grab up to 500 ft. The 262 comes straight at me for an HO. I dive to his left and cut back into him, so he overshoots. He is very fast, and very nearly disappears, but reverses and makes another pass. I offset in a grab, rather then stay pointed away, and again force an overshoot by diving toward the terrain and turning toward the 262. This is repeated six times, until he finally heads off east to investigate another Bishop, which (despite radio warnings) he must have killed. I arrive over V6 and drop the drunks and here comes the 262 again. Again, I play evasive and he makes three passes on the drunks, but misses everytime. Finally, the base is ours and he runs to A5. Had Panman not stayed in the area, I would not have been able to pull this off, as he (the 262) was forced to stay fast.
So, which of us was more gamey? :D
No, I don't shut engines off, unless I'm in a GV or listening for GV's from an aircraft.
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If going evasive in a goon is gamey....then I am as Gamey as they come.
Sorry.
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Yes but the troops would be unable to drop after living through loops in the back. If they were alive..
But its lots of fun....
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I game the game, but I'm terrible at it so I have a low score.
So my answer doesn't even count..
do I owe you any money now?
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LOL Midnight! Your posts crack me up! I can just see Gunther Rall accusing one of his adversaries saying "You were gaming the game, but doing a combat manuerver that your A/C was capable of doing!"
LOL! Ohh, the arrogance...I cracking up!
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I regret only 1/2 the troops show up in this shot. Evidentally AK's placed several "interesting" vehicle spawns in the AKDesert (aka GV's R' Us) Map.
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Cool, a conspiracy theory.
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Originally posted by Fatty
Cool, a conspiracy theory.
No just poor spawn point planning
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No.. I am not talking about BFM (Basic Flight Maneuvers) or ACM (Air Combat Maneuvers). I am not talking about all of the other gamey things that go on in Aces High. I am talking specifically about doing gamey things done in a fight that either get you the victory, or allow you to escape from your attacker.
I am talking about gaming the game to get an advantage, where if you did it in real life, you would be really pushing it or it would just be impossible.
I didn't want to list examples, but these are the ones I know of.
1. Before take-off, press the TOGGLE ENGINE (E by default) three times. The entire engine startup delay is bypassed allowing instant full power.
I just found out aboout this one last week. IMO, this is gaming something that is already too gamey to begin with. We can already insta-spawn on any runway, we could at least be forced to start the damn engines before taking off.
2. While in flight, pilots turn off their engine(s) to force an attacking plane to over-shoot, and then restart them again as soon as the attacker goes by.
Or, when attacking, pilots cut their engine(s) to prevent overshooting their target and allowing their plane to settle into a nice firing position behind their target. Again, restarting the engine(s) as soon as they are stable.
This one I read about in another forum today. This is very gamey and should be disabled. No pilot in his right mind would shut down a perfectly good running engine in the middle of combat for fear the thing might not restart, or by not having the ability to restart it even if he wanted to.
From what I understand, this has been happening a lot in the MA, obviously without fear, because restarting the engine is just a button press away.
3. Saving your normal head position in an extreme position (giving you better view for firing guns) that would be impossible for a real pilot to do in the actual aircraft.
There are many players that have their head positions set as high and as far forward as possible, giving them an unrealistic view over the nose of their aircraft, and allowing them to get much better deflection shots in tighter turns.
It is my opinion that the head position should be forced back to the 'home' position as the G load increases. I think we can all agree that no one would be putting their face on the windshield when they are pulling 3 or 4 Gs.
4. Pulling and maintaining blackout condition G forces to maintain tighter turns and shake off attacking bandits.
I've seen this many times, where I am in the same aircraft as the plane I am attacking. We are both at the same speed. As I try to shoot the bandit, he pulls into a turn to avoid my shot. As I pull into the same turn, my blackout window starts to close. Because the bandit is in the same aircraft, I know that he is also nearing blackout, however he continues to turn tighter. At this point I know he must be blacked out. I am seeing through a pin hole, so he must be in total black, yet he continues to pull the same Gs.
Even in real life, that was probably done a lot, but once blacked out, the plane would ease into a straight line of flight, rather than the blacked out pilot being able to maintain the high G load.
5. Stick Stirring. Making your appear to be flip-flopping all over the place. Commonly seen when getting close to a firing position.
Honestly, I don't know exactly what this entails because I always thought that the 'don't move your controls so rapdily message' was supposed to pop up to stop this. It could be legitimate BFM, but the AH server screws it all up and makes the plane look like its flipping backwards or warping sideways.
6. Spawn camping in GVs
If you are doing this, you really are showing diminished skills. How much fun and skill can there actually be in shooting planes or GVs that just appeared right there in front of you? Shooting them so fast, they don't even have a moment to get the engine started?
7. Vulching
This is a mainstay for some. Admittedly, many planes were shot down (or destroyed) while on the runway or just taking off / landing. in AH, cannon armed planes are better to vulch with because the probability of a pilot kill is greatly increased, so they can vulch while the target is still sitting. Planes armed with MGs have to wait until the target is going faster than 100MPH, so they get a kill and not end up just blowing off a wing and letting the player go back to tower with a successful landing.
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Poor spawn point planning?
When are you dolts going to realise that we (the AKs) built this map for only OUR benefit?
Just learn to accept it or build your own map for your own benefit!
-SW
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It's not the wierdly-placed spawn points that force us to drive up/down cliffs we object to, AKSwulfe, it's the spawn points that are tagged 'AK-only'... You know -- the ones right next to the towns and just behind the runway aircraft spawn points. :D
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Seems like the "Engine Cheats" could be prevented simply AH taking a page from the (gak!) WWIIOnline book and have engines turn over for a more or less random length of time until they catch. So long as the length of time does not exceed 3 or 4 seconds I wouldn't think it would effect normal gameplay other than making upping from a vulched field an even worse idea.
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If your talking specifically about rank, there is no way in hell you can get a top 10 rank without at least very good planning. Some items require a bit of gaming but most DO require at least a bit of skill.
I am currently sitting at #1, I've been there for a week or so and yes you have to fly differently to maintain that rank. Does it reduce the fun? Maybe for some people, it stops you doing some things and makes you think a lot more than normal but I've enjoyed the last 2 weeks as much as any I've had in AH.
BTW I strongly suspect that Cuckoo will overtake me for the #1 spot in the next few days and nothing I can do is going to stop that, not because he games more than anyone else but because he is a damn good stick.
Gatso
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Yup, someone kicked Midnights butt :D
I don't see how engine blipping is any worse than throttling back. I have a CH throttle, and RPM mapped to my twisty stick throttle. So I can chop all back quicker than your average punter with a crap joystick. Engine blipping is an easier way for them to chop the throttle isn't it?
Someone from the 412th talking about gaming the game? Those ack running gang banging alt monkeys who won't fight co-alt one on one?
Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaah right.
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4. Pulling and maintaining blackout condition G forces to maintain tighter turns and shake off attacking bandits.
You do understand the difference between the loss of vision due to excessive G and GLOC, right?
F.
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wow ,thanks for all the real good tips midnight, i can use all the help i can get
44MAG
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1. Engine start sequence lasts about 10 seconds. I don't see how getting in the air 10 sec sooner will get you any extra kills.
2. I just tested this offline. Killing your engine gives you exactly the same glide rate as leaving it at idle. So killing it in flight won't slow you any faster than idle throttle.
3. Never been in anything pulling 4+G so I dunno how realisticit is. There are some guys here who have done it and can tell ya. It really doesn' bother me much either way. Planes with historically goodview over the nose (p38, f6f) also have it here.
4. Vision loss occurs before loss of conciousness. Pilots can and did fly while blacked out visually.
5. Its the fact we're all playing over the net. Go offline and fly around in chase view mode. Do whatever you want with the stick, the planes motion is always smooth and predictable. If online play looked like that, there wouldnt be any claims of stick-stirring.
6. Spawn camping is just as realistic as endless respawning. If you got 1 you gotta have the other. And if you're trying to take a v-field in a panzer its way more effective to spawncamp than to spend half your ammo killing the vh(which you cant do anyway cause the endless respawers will get u).
7. Theoretically mgs should be more likely to get a pilot kill. More rounds in the air, and every one can kill him. Cannons do get the advantage that near-miss ground strikes will still cause explosive damage. But what's your point here anyway? That using cannons is gaming the game?
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Originally posted by Midnight
7. Vulching
This is a mainstay for some. Admittedly, many planes were shot down (or destroyed) while on the runway or just taking off / landing. in AH, cannon armed planes are better to vulch with because the probability of a pilot kill is greatly increased, so they can vulch while the target is still sitting. Planes armed with MGs have to wait until the target is going faster than 100MPH, so they get a kill and not end up just blowing off a wing and letting the player go back to tower with a successful landing.
Vulching isn't gaming the game, it's an art form and a real tactic that was employed. If you recall the fighter sweeps done before the bombers went to target, the fighters would sweep the enemy fields in hopes of catching the planes still on the ground. It's called field supression for a reason.
As for adjusting the views, so friggin' what? Does it give the pilot an unfair advantage in combat? Nope. I've got my gunsight raised so my shots are at eye level, and yes it does allow me to see over the nose of the P-38 but it doesn't give me any sort of advantage over the other player, only my flying gives me that advantage.
Turning off the engine in flight? I think it's more of a llama move than gaming the game. I've seen guys like hblair do it in the MA. When I've fought hblair in the MA and he's done it, it didn't give him the advantage nor force me to overshoot because there are recognizable signs that let you avoid it if you pay attention.
Ack-Ack
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cutting off engines... gamey yes. and dumb. you lose drag and in single-engine planes you can get your attitude all fediddleed up because the engine torque stops working (except in n1k, no effect noticable hahahahah).
blackscreen high-g turning... super gamey. I agree, the pilot should cease to have control of the plane when totally blacked out.
GV field camping..not gamey. If they drove there, more power to them.
other gamey tricks ive seen:
Stick stirring... many 190's know they can spin on their noses 3 times and then pull hard to any side..to the other player this plane will keep spinning half a spin more and bewm, the 190 suddenly turns on its belly at 7g's.
Purpose stalling: A masterpiece. Players with a con in their 6 will try the good ol' TOP DWEEB manouver ... "im letting him get closer and ill hit the brakes.." cut throttle, rudder full side and pull as hard as they can and make their plane stall and spin. Once they spin they use the autopilot mode to bring plane out of spin (if nose down) or regain control with much-practiced skills and dive away or spray cannon at the other player.
Damage model : Particular to Zero and La7s. They will "play dead" when their planes are burning and spewing black and grey clouds then when the attacker zooms up or turns their still-intact plane (that will fly perfectly until they run out of their leaking gas) comes back and shoots them. Funny thing is, its impossible to know if they dead or not after you pumped 200 rnds of quad 50 cal and 50 rnds of 20mm into their tulips at d120. NUTS!
Bombers: Overlapping buff formations. I saw 3 players with 9 buffs fliying "inside"each other. Lag issues and other nuances and you get a buff that eats 3X the damage (you seem to spread damage over all 3 buffs as they warp back and forth) and you end up facing 3X amount of guns. Killshooter didnt seem to affect them either.
Killshooter abuse: Some players with cannon planes purposely fly in between you and your d200 smoking, wingless, slow, on the deck target and pump cannon till he blows to steal kills. You killshoot yourself many times, giving him more chances to get the kill. "shouldve killed him faster" comes reply in white (C-Hog/N1k replying to P-40B) *sigh*
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#2 is stupid. No smart gamer whould chop the throttle to induce drag because it also feathers the prop. Better just to haul back on the throttle.
eskimo
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3. Never been in anything pulling 4+G so I dunno how realisticit is. There are some guys here who have done it and can tell ya. It really doesn' bother me much either way. Planes with historically goodview over the nose (p38, f6f) also have it here.
I've pulled over 4 G's, can tell ya that you don't exactly move/keep yer head forward in a such a motion. 4 G ain't all that much but you definatly won't have your head pressed forward, I think it would even be pretty damn hard to aim.
Ps. Not gaming the game, ever, I hate "cheating" and gaming the game things, didn't even cheat when I played Doom back in the good old days.
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Actually, no I wasn't beat by this move in any recent history. Probably in the past though. I'm bringing it up because I have been hearing a lot about it lately.
I'm not whining about this stuff either, I'm just wondering how many people use these tricks to their advantage on a regular basis so that they can get more kills.
One thing I remember was back in AW, people would turn off their cockpit art so they could see all around with no obstructions. That was really gaming the game.
My numbers 2 and 3 are really the only ones that I was interested in. The rest I added just for conversation.
Regurge, you are wrong about glide rates and induced drag. HT can explain it fully to you, but props in AH generate more drag with the engine off than with te engine running at idle.
Also, I have pulled +5.5 Gs in a dogfight. Trying to do it leaning forward over the dashboard would have been impossible.
Vulcan, how can we be ack runners and alt-monkeys at the same time? Did someone put AAA at 20K and not tell me? And why should I fight 1-v-1 CO E? I'm not good at it, and it always turns into a turn fight, which I am even worse at.
Anyway, I just want to know who 'games the game'. My guess is that the ones of you answering with the smart-ass comments do it the most.
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Hmmm, my Typhoon has suffered a lot of radiator hits, and one hit oil leaks from ack. Decreasing prop rpm helps stretch the glide. Yes, even when your engine quits.
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Easy, you dive on a con, quickly get suckered into blowing your E, point your nose at the closest field and run.
You'll never get better if you run from every 1 on 1 where you don't have an alt advantage.
Whos gaming the game then?
Originally posted by Midnight
Vulcan, how can we be ack runners and alt-monkeys at the same time? Did someone put AAA at 20K and not tell me? And why should I fight 1-v-1 CO E? I'm not good at it, and it always turns into a turn fight, which I am even worse at.
Anyway, I just want to know who 'games the game'. My guess is that the ones of you answering with the smart-ass comments do it the most.
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Try this Midnight.
Get a plane up offline and pull throttle to idle. Turn on auto-speed trim. Turn on some updraft wind (~45mph works well). The wind is so your decent rate wont be off the gauge.
After the climb gauge stabilizes turn off the engine and watch the climb gauge. When I do that, the needle doesnt move at all. If it was causing more drag, the auto-trim would pitch the plane down to maintain speed and the the descent rate would increase.
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Uh purpose stalling:
folks, when a guy's being shot at, he'll try anything.
If you bother to read narrative accounts, there are plenty of cases of pilots (even aces) spinning to foil an attack run.
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re #2... There has been (may still be) a graphic bug which will make it appear as if your opponent's engine maybe stopped.
Ran into this one when, in the midst of a furball, Drex in an F6 found his way to the 6 of my HurriC. I tried vertical scissors, and could not force the overshoot, yet when I looked back to see him at the top of his ermm zooms, it appeared as though his prop was stopped. After I ermm got a new plane, I asked him if he had ever stopped his engine.. He said no. I can't recall if this occured in the current version of AH or not. I have a feeling it was the last version prior.
This was not the only case I experienced seeing other players with apparently stopped or windmilling props.
A feathered prop.. reduces drag.. In many cases your drag will be reduced with a stopped engine(in AH)
re #1 The press E 3 times has been around since the Zero was released at least!! What was that ? version 1.05? I guess I may have used this trick all of a half a dozen times when in a hurry to get up before the vulchers descend.
re#3 I save my head pos as high as possible but as far back as possible in the hopes of increasing my perceived peripheral vision to help with close deflection shots. I dunno why anyone would save a head position as close to the dash as possible.... makes no sense.
my say...
SKurj
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Originally posted by Midnight
And why should I fight 1-v-1 CO E? I'm not good at it, and it always turns into a turn fight, which I am even worse at
Do you mean to say that, your cruising along at 3 bills and come across a Pony co-alt inbound...YOU DON'T TAKE IT ????????
BRAHAHAHAHAHAA !!!
LOL I couldn't look myself in the mirror..
My God man, your missing out on the BEST that this sim or any other sim has to offer.
Step up man, take the plunge, stretch yourself....
Good one vs.ones are remembered for YEARS.
I can give you a breakdown of great fights over the last four years. They stay in the brain. Win OR lose.
Can't recall my "score" on those particular tours....
;)
Score, no matter how "good" just lasts till the end of the tour, good fights are KEEPERS....
indulge..
..you'll remember every one of them
..and have to buy bigger underwear to hold "them"..
or you will feel constrained :eek:
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wrong eskimo
test it yourself
cutting your eng doesnt feather the prop you bleed more e then simply manipulating your throttle.
This is proven fact, lotsa of guys. Midnights posts originated in another where someone asks "Whats wrong will killing your Eng in a fight"
When you turn your enfg off your prop still wing mills for a bit giving you an "air break".
It works people do it, they admit they do it. So to discount something that is as "proven" out of hand shows that you are just attacking his position without verifying what he is saying.
As for the rest of this thread who cares. I just wanted to set the record straight on the eng chop trick.
It works.
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Originally posted by Regurge
1. Engine start sequence lasts about 10 seconds. I don't see how getting in the air 10 sec sooner will get you any extra kills.
2. I just tested this offline. Killing your engine gives you exactly the same glide rate as leaving it at idle. So killing it in flight won't slow you any faster than idle throttle.
Actually the advantage gained by killing your engine while pulling ACM in AH is not causing your enemy to overshoot. What it does gain you is the ability to turn harder if timed correctly. Your AC WILLl turn better with the engine cut. What I have seen is guys constantly cutting and restarting the engine in stall fights. It was amazingly effective in the fight between two P-47's that I witnessed.
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8. pop chute without ejecting creating an air anchor causing an immediate overshoot
as much as you try to think/pretend otherwise, your still just playing a game with ppl 8 to 80 :)
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Does anyone consider a twisty-stick rudder gamey?
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props in AH generate more drag with the engine off than with the engine running at idle.
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In my AH experience a dead prop bleeds off substantially less airspeed than the idle prop. I base this on my observation that deadstick landing approaches never lose the equal amount of speed as idle engine approaches...unless I have misunderstood the above statement. Deadsticks are always hotter for me, never seem to lose speed. Glide path is extended.
I too have heard things about some odd engine management practices. As long as code is not altered anything goes.
Just enjoy the game and dont get caught up in egos. Hard to do but the best outcome is usually avaliable.
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...........'cause usually my opponent kills it for me! :p
THEN he overshoots or flies on by..........
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you're all lamers and killed!!!
huh? gamers or skilled? errr, sorry, i must've misread the question.
my answer still stands tho'
:D
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I like to think I'm skilled at gaming the game.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by eskimo2
#2 is stupid. No smart gamer whould chop the throttle to induce drag because it also feathers the prop. Better just to haul back on the throttle.
eskimo
How does it feather the prop? I'm not aware of any auto-feather feature.
My regards,
Widewing
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As far as I understand it, here goes.
When you turn your engine OFF, it creates more drag than an "idling" engine because the propellor (which is not feathered, or turned into the wind, in either case) forces the engine to do... engine-stuff. If the throttle is at idle but the engine is on, the engine provides its own power for the .... engine-stuff. Manually lowering the RPM will REDUCE drag in either case ('idle' throttle or turning off engine).
However, when your engine gets DAMAGED, or you lose your radiator or your oil and the engine seizes, the game "auto-feathers" your prop. This makes it so the prop turns into the wind (and no, i don't understand what this means) to reduce drag. THAT is why you will glide for a very long time when you take engine damage, but fall like a brick if you just turn your engine off.
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I think ht explained it in another thread
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Originally posted by Midnight
7. Vulching
This is a mainstay for some. Admittedly, many planes were shot down (or destroyed) while on the runway or just taking off / landing. in AH, cannon armed planes are better to vulch with because the probability of a pilot kill is greatly increased, so they can vulch while the target is still sitting. Planes armed with MGs have to wait until the target is going faster than 100MPH, so they get a kill and not end up just blowing off a wing and letting the player go back to tower with a successful landing.
Hand off vulching! That is the only way I can get kills. :)
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Originally posted by Midnight
How many of you so-called 'skilled' players are actually gaming the game to get your high scores?
One example of 'gaming' is used a lot to either force overshoots, or prevent your plane from overshooting your target. Those of you who do it know what it is.
I try to fly my plane within the limits of what I understand to be physically possible with the airframe I have and the capacity of a human pilot.
So the question is, do you 'play it to the max' and game the game, or do you try to fly your plane in a way that is closer to how it could have actually been flown?
LOL Midnight! Bait seems spoiled but here goes nothing :)
Take a break. You're taking this game/sim waaay too seriously. After you get killed, do you stop playing? Do you check yourself into the hospital? Real life right? :) You crack me up LOL
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Actually the advantage gained by killing your engine while pulling ACM in AH is not causing your enemy to overshoot. What it does gain you is the ability to turn harder if timed correctly. Your AC WILLl turn better with the engine cut. What I have seen is guys constantly cutting and restarting the engine in stall fights. It was amazingly effective in the fight between two P-47's that I witnessed.
That's just 100% discusting cheating :(
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Originally posted by gatso
I am currently sitting at #1, I've been there for a week or so and yes you have to fly differently to maintain that rank. Does it reduce the fun? Maybe for some people
Blatent plug for LOOKY LOOKY how good are I!
LoL we can smell that yer rank, no need to tell us.
Tommylee<<<<<<< unimpressed
P.S. to answer your next reply, sure,sure this is not what you meant
:D :D :D :D :p
:cool:
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Originally posted by -ammo-
Actually the advantage gained by killing your engine while pulling ACM in AH is not causing your enemy to overshoot. What it does gain you is the ability to turn harder if timed correctly. Your AC WILLl turn better with the engine cut. What I have seen is guys constantly cutting and restarting the engine in stall fights. It was amazingly effective in the fight between two P-47's that I witnessed.
Yep, WldThing uses this trick in his pony alot. Then he'll laugh at ya and call ya a no-skill dweeb, when he's the donuthead that's cheating and gaming the game.
Someone mentions a bug that makes it look as though the other guy's engine isn't running when it is. That doesn't apply when you can hear the guy killin and restartin his engine
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However, when your engine gets DAMAGED, or you lose your radiator or your oil and the engine seizes, the game "auto-feathers" your prop.
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That makes perfect sense and validates my observation. I suspect Ive herd this before but probably just miplaced the data.
Thnx
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Originally posted by Urchin
As far as I understand it, here goes.
When you turn your engine OFF, it creates more drag than an "idling" engine because the propellor (which is not feathered, or turned into the wind, in either case) forces the engine to do... engine-stuff. If the throttle is at idle but the engine is on, the engine provides its own power for the .... engine-stuff. Manually lowering the RPM will REDUCE drag in either case ('idle' throttle or turning off engine).
However, when your engine gets DAMAGED, or you lose your radiator or your oil and the engine seizes, the game "auto-feathers" your prop. This makes it so the prop turns into the wind (and no, i don't understand what this means) to reduce drag. THAT is why you will glide for a very long time when you take engine damage, but fall like a brick if you just turn your engine off.
Here's a supposedly true story coming from the 55th Fighter Group:
A section of 55th P-38s have finished their escort assignment and are heading home on the deck, shooting up anything they see. Suddenly over the radio they hear a panicstricken voice:
"Mayday, Mayday, I took a flak hit and I'm losing Prestone (coolant)!"
A P-38 pilot responds, "Calm down, go through your engine shut down checklist and secure the engine."
"SECURE THE ENGINE!?", the frightened pilots bellows.
"That's right, feather the prop and we'll escort you home." replies the P-38 jock in a calm, reassuring manner.
With mounting terror in his voice, the reply comes, "feather it my ass, I'm in a P-51!!!!"
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by CavemanJ
Yep, WldThing uses this trick in his pony alot. Then he'll laugh at ya and call ya a no-skill dweeb, when he's the donuthead that's cheating and gaming the game.
Someone mentions a bug that makes it look as though the other guy's engine isn't running when it is. That doesn't apply when you can hear the guy killin and restartin his engine
I would suspect Cave that you have been killed by him and can't do anything about it?
WT kills me consistently(for the time being) in the DA...I am aware that he kills his engine as well. at first I thought it was gamey, however, in RL an aircraft will restart immediately as long as the prop maintains rpm. the reason you did not see this done in RL combat, is the fear of the engine not restarting.
BTW Cave....WT does not cheat, he just outflies you. Get over it:)
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I see this a lot in planes that are doing the LW flip flop flap and roll moves trying to cause an overshoot I guess. At low speed a windmilling prop should cause less drag then a powered high rpm prop . The only way it would cause more drag is from the controll surfaces you have to apply when your plane suddenly goes out of trim from the sudden absence of prop torque .
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Game gamers!
Just kill them, or die, quietly please.
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Here's a post I yanked from the KOTH forum, where this discussion originated. It was directed at WildTHing.. the full thred is at http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66790
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Because I HIGHLY doubt anyone would even consider doing it in the middle of combat. If I were about to be shot at, the last thing I would do is turn off my engine in hopes of making the attacker fly by. Even if I were successful in doing it, I would not want to worry about trying to instantly restart the engine 5 seconds later.
Anyone that says they would do it, I challenge to take up a real plane, shut down the engine, pull some sort of crazy maneuver (to simulate avoiding an attacking bandit) and then restart the engine again to continue flying.
Seeing as you fly the Mustang a lot, I am assuming you use this tactic in it as well. Bottom line, there is no way you would shut down a Merlin engine from full RPMs and Manifold pressure and then restart it again at full RPMs and Manifold pressure. No Way, No How.
Aside from blown transmission, busted piston seals, a bent crank shaft, backfiring in the exhaust headers and crushed booster vanes, the entire engine would be flooded out from too rich a fuel mixture. So, even if you hadn't destoryed the engine, it wouldn't start again until you got some more oxygen into the fuel/air mix.
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Here's the ignition sequence for the Mustang... Omit where stating cold engine, as we are obviously talking about restarting hot...
STARTING AND WARM-UP
Ignition switch OFF.
Have prop pulled through if it has been idle more than 2 hours.
Generator and battery switch ON, unless battery cart is being used, then battery switch OFF.
Throttle 1 inch open.
Mixture control in IDLE CUT-OFF.
Propeller control in INCREASED RPM.
Supercharger switch in AUTOMATIC.
Carburetor air control in RAM AIR.
Turn ignition switch to BOTH.
Fuel shut-off valve ON and fuel selector valve to Fuselage tank (if full), or Left Main tank if Fuselage tank not serviced.
Fuel booster pump on NORMAL and check for 8-12 pounds of fuel pressure.
Prime engine 3 to 4 shots when cold. 1 to 2 when warm.
See that prop is clear.
Lift guard on starter switch on pilot's switch panel and press switch to START. Caution in use of starter not to overheat.
As engine starts, move mixture control to AUTO RICH. If engine does not fire, after several turns, continue priming.
WARNING: When engine is not firing, mixture control should be in IDLE CUT-OFF.
Warm engine at approximately 1300 RPM. Check for constant oil pressure. If no oil pressure or low pressure after 30 seconds, shut off engine.
Check all instruments for proper readings.
Check hydraulic system operation by lowering and raising flaps.
Loading 800-850 pounds and unloading at 1050-1100 pounds.
Check communication equipment for proper operation.
Uncage all gyro instruments.
Check both LEFT and RIGHT MAIN and FUSELAGE fuel systems by rotating fuel selector valve with booster pump switch in EMERGENCY. Check for 14-19 lbs/sq. in. If drop tanks are installed, check fuel flow by rotating fuel selector control.
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Here is the shutdown procedure
Booster pump OFF>
Oil and coolant shutters OPEN.
Run engine to 1500 RPM, set mixture control to IDLE CUT-OFF and move throttle fully open.
Turn ignition switch OFF after propeller stops turning.
Fuel shut-off valve OFF.
Turn all switches OFF.
Lock controls.
Considering this, how many times would you shut down an engine (in combat)
Anyone that does this move to win a fight... My respect for your dog-fighting skills is gone.
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Yep, WldThing uses this trick in his pony alot. Then he'll laugh at ya and call ya a no-skill dweeb, when he's the donuthead that's cheating and gaming the game.
Talk with your guns Caveman.... Other than that you dont need to say anything else.
And me laughing at you would me an insult to my intelligence.
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Originally posted by poopster
Do you mean to say that, your cruising along at 3 bills and come across a Pony co-alt inbound...YOU DON'T TAKE IT ????????
I did not say that I never take the fight. If it's another P-51, the fight is definitely on. If it's an N1k, or LA7 or Spit... whatever it is, if the fight becomes a tail chasing turn fight, I just extend and forget about it. I know that the more I turn, the more I am giving away to the bandit and the more I am bleeding off E waiting for some other bandit to come into the fight and make it 2-v-1.
The Mustang is not a turn fighter, and in my experience, almost every 1-v-1 fight I have ever gotten into turns into a dive for the deck event as soon as one looses the advantage. If someone thinks I'm going to tail chase something like an LA7, N1K, 109G, Typhoon, Spit, 205 down below 5K then they will end up down low all by them self. I'll wait up above 10K and nail them when they try to climb back to altitude.
I really find it funny when LA7s try to riddicule me for not turn fighting with them on the deck. Let's put the hard-deck at 15K and see how many La7s what to stick around and fight a Mustang.
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My respect for your dog-fighting skills is gone.
Heh! That's the funniest thing I've seen yet today.
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I think what he is trying to say is.... "I fly one of the fastest planes in the game and do it with friends who fly the same planes and we allways have an alt advantage but it takes us a long time to get there and then when we try to B&Z all the slow planes they.... get out of the way and it's killing my K/hour and because it looks like I suck then no body knows how good I really am..."
general Lazs
Public relations officer for the BK's
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I see this a lot in planes that are doing the LW flip flop flap and roll moves trying to cause an overshoot I guess. At low speed a windmilling prop should cause less drag then a powered high rpm prop . The only way it would cause more drag is from the controll surfaces you have to apply when your plane suddenly goes out of trim from the sudden absence of prop torque .
LW Flip Flop? Hell, I see just as many allied planes that do it.
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Originally posted by lazs2
I think what he is trying to say is.... "I fly one of the fastest planes in the game and do it with friends who fly the same planes and we allways have an alt advantage but it takes us a long time to get there and then when we try to B&Z all the slow planes they.... get out of the way and it's killing my K/hour and because it looks like I suck then no body knows how good I really am..."
general Lazs
Public relations officer for the BK's
No lazs. I said what I was trying to say, but thanks for trying to interpret for me :rolleyes:
Obviously you still have not watched the film I posted for you, ubt I expected that. I know you are too lazy (by your own admission on several posts) to do anything that might expand your knowledge or provide a different viewpoint than what your narrow-mindedness can produce.
Aside from that, I have already conceded to the K/T aurgument and have decided the best way to accomplish my goal is to either modify my flying or change my perception of what is important. I guess you didn't realize that however, because it would have taken you too much time to actually read and understand what I said.
It's smart-mouth, low-brow comments from people like you that make constructive debates turn into mud slinging contests. Do me a favor and take your imbecility somewhere else.
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Originally posted by Midnight
Obviously you still have not watched the film I posted for you, ubt I expected that. I know you are too lazy (by your own admission on several posts) to do anything that might expand your knowledge or provide a different viewpoint than what your narrow-mindedness can produce.
[/B]
With all due respect, your film shows exactly what Lazs is talking about. Yes, you engage vastly superior numbers, but you do so with easily an 8-10k alt advantage at the start, and based on what I saw in the AH Film Viewer, you manage to maintain anywhere from a 100-200mph speed advantage on every plane that is co-alt with you.
You were attacking bad odds, but you were doing so from a position of extreme advantage. While I wouldn't call that "timid" per se, I wouldn't point to it as absolute bravery either.
Aside from that, I have already conceded to the K/T aurgument and have decided the best way to accomplish my goal is to either modify my flying or change my perception of what is important. I guess you didn't realize that however, because it would have taken you too much time to actually read and understand what I said.
[/B]
The best thing you can do is just change your perception of what's important. In other words, stop worrying about how K/T negatively impactis on your overall rank, and instead just focus on those stats that matter to you personally. If you don't think K/T is important, then don't pay attention to it. By the same token, you must expect that people who do consider it important want it to remain.
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that's what i got out of the film and more importantly, that is what I get out of watdching you in the arena.
Why do I care? well... I would say that because.... based on what you consider to be the correct way to fly, anything that you think would be a good idea is boud to screw up the arena. I think that you would probly enjoy a backstep to version 1.03.
Look at it this way.... what would I get out of more people flying like you do vs less of you in the arena. The less of you and your ilk works out best for me every time. Less dodgeball and more fights is a plus for me.
lazs
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Originally posted by Rude
WT kills me consistently(for the time being) in the DA...I am aware that he kills his engine as well. at first I thought it was gamey, however, in RL an aircraft will restart immediately as long as the prop maintains rpm. the reason you did not see this done in RL combat, is the fear of the engine not restarting.
Rude, that simply is not the case. I have in excess of 2,000 hours sitting behind the R-2800 and R-1820. There’s only two ways to suddenly shut off an engine in flight. Moving the mixture to Idle Cut-off or switching off the magnetos. Forget the first one. It would take way too long to shut down and restart using the mixture. This leaves the master mag switch. Yeah you can switch off the mag, but when you switch it back on, one or more of the following WILL occur.
1) Fouled spark plugs due to unburned fuel and/or oil wetting. Assuming most plugs fire, you will still have a misfiring engine and will be down on power. Merlins were notorious for plug fouling at cruise power settings. Pilots would routinely run the engine at military power for several minutes to clear the plugs.
2) Backfire. Frequently destructive to the engine, often blowing exhaust stacks right off.
3) Flooding. Plugs are so wet from unburned fuel that there is no spark. Net result: Dead engine.
Finally, any pilot discovered doing this by his crew chief could expect a close encounter with a ball peen hammer.
My regards,
Widewing
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Irrelevant off topic anecdote:
When racing two strokes; I found it quicker to gently press against the gear lever and jab at the kill switch to change gear than doing it "properly". In fact, it was (is?) a common technique.
I tried it when I moved over to four strokes and broke my GPz.
Multicylinder four strokes just do not take kindly to this type of behaviour.
You'd no more hear of Galland or Malan doing it than you would Shumi.
Give your self a laugh. Try it on the way home in the car tonight.
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Soooooo....
Anyone flying a Japanese plane constructed after 1944 must fly as if he were an untrained 18 yr old.
No one will be allowed more than 25 missions in a B-17... after that you must log and go home.
All luftwabbles are required to fly until you die.
All AHers are required to hold their breath and or hyperventilate until black-out occurs whenever the g-meter exceeds 5.
If you bail over enemy territory you will be required to lock yourself in your closet for the duration. (tunnels are allowed)
OR
you can just enjoy the game.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
With all due respect, your film shows exactly what Lazs is talking about. Yes, you engage vastly superior numbers, but you do so with easily an 8-10k alt advantage at the start, and based on what I saw in the AH Film Viewer, you manage to maintain anywhere from a 100-200mph speed advantage on every plane that is co-alt with you.
You were attacking bad odds, but you were doing so from a position of extreme advantage. While I wouldn't call that "timid" per se, I wouldn't point to it as absolute bravery either. [/B]
So what am I supposed to do? Fly the Mustang against superior numbers in a Co-E state? Yeah.. that would mean me being shot down instead of them. Maybe if I was in an N1K I would have started turn fighting everything.
I think the perception of flying fast being cowardly is misplaced. A Mustang is just not going to win a turn fight in a Co-E situation unless it's against a P-47 or another Mustang, or equally poor turning aircraft.
It's funny.. newbies are called dweebs when they try to turn-fight Mustangs against a spit, and guys like me are called cowards when we use the Mustang's strengths to win.
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This has nothing to do with realism, cutting engines, blah blah blah. It has everything to do with fame or shame.
Drex
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I think the perception that being skilled is flying only the fastest plane all the time in an arena of slow ones is misplaced.
lazs
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A Mustang is just not going to win a turn fight in a Co-E situation unless it's against a P-47 or another Mustang, or equally poor turning aircraft.
Don't agree. There are to many variables in combat to give a definitive statement like that. It can be easily disproven.
Drex
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I'm not sure if it has a 'dramatic' effect on a knife-fight or not, but I'm pretty sure it does have one. Does it aggravate me a little? Well, sure, I guess it does. Will most people grasp at any little straw that gives them an advantage? Yes, so I can't really fault those that turn their engines off and on repeatedly in a knife-fight. Am I ever going to do it? No, it just strikes me as 'gamey' behaviour. Does that mean that I'm 'right' and the people that do it are 'wrong'? Nope.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Does that mean that I'm 'right' and the people that do it are 'wrong'? Nope.
nope. it just means that the something is modelled in the game that wasn't possible in real life (or at the very least was very detrimental to continued full-powered flight.) If it's in the game, it can be used, IMO. If HTC thinks this is a gamey issue, all they have to do is remove the ability to restart the engine in flight.
I personally don't toggle my engine in a fight. I will toggle my engine to conserve fuel so I don't have to fight a deadstick landing. If I lose my radiator, I will turn the engine on and off to keep from overheating on the way home.
I would rather stay at full power and force an overshoot through displacement and out of plane manuevers than cutting my engine. If that doesn't work, yeah, I'll chop the throttle, kick the rudder hard and pop a notch of flap. If someone else wants to kill their engine instead, well more power to them. Or would that be less power to them? ;)
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It's a gamey tactic these guys are using to manipulate the flight model of their aircraft beyond what it was phyically capable of doing. I wonder how many of the 'engine goosers' are also flight model whiners?
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Originally posted by Widewing
Rude, that simply is not the case. I have in excess of 2,000 hours sitting behind the R-2800 and R-1820. There’s only two ways to suddenly shut off an engine in flight. Moving the mixture to Idle Cut-off or switching off the magnetos. Forget the first one. It would take way too long to shut down and restart using the mixture. This leaves the master mag switch. Yeah you can switch off the mag, but when you switch it back on, one or more of the following WILL occur.
1) Fouled spark plugs due to unburned fuel and/or oil wetting. Assuming most plugs fire, you will still have a misfiring engine and will be down on power. Merlins were notorious for plug fouling at cruise power settings. Pilots would routinely run the engine at military power for several minutes to clear the plugs.
2) Backfire. Frequently destructive to the engine, often blowing exhaust stacks right off.
3) Flooding. Plugs are so wet from unburned fuel that there is no spark. Net result: Dead engine.
Finally, any pilot discovered doing this by his crew chief could expect a close encounter with a ball peen hammer.
My regards,
Widewing
From one RL pilot to another, !
Now, I don't really know how a WW2 Aircraft would shut down or start up other than what I could read...however, I did ask my pilot bud who has logged over 20,000 hrs and owns a warbird, and he explained to me that it can be done.
Out side of this explanation, I'm ignorant.
As to players who choose to use this technique to their advantage, I figure I have three choices:
1. Learn to do it myself to even the odds
2. E fight them rather than knife fight them
3. Ignore the issue, play the game and try to enjoy myself.
In my particular instance, I have done all three while making my home number three.
Is Midnight wrong in what he says about it being gamey? Probably not.
Are there other gamey ways to gain an advantage in AH?
Probably so.
Should we all be surprised that gamey things exist in a game?
I don't think so.
Cyas Up!
:)
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heh, supposedly that MChammer guy has mAd sKiLlZ...he can lay the shizzy down on the lizzy and bring his mad icey HOT stuntAz bling bling to the hood.
or sumthin.
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I have to agree with midnight Target on this. If you want to "Fly as they really would have flown":
When you get killed, uninstall AH and never play again. Oh, and someone else gets to decide what plane you will fly until you get killed and never play again.
Or, admit it's a game, fly whatever dills-your-pickle, respawn and don't begrudge those who fly their plane of choice the way they want to fly it.
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Originally posted by Drex
Don't agree. There are to many variables in combat to give a definitive statement like that. It can be easily disproven.
Drex
You think you know something, but you don't:D
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Originally posted by Drex
This has nothing to do with realism, cutting engines, blah blah blah. It has everything to do with fame or shame.
Drex
:) Basically what my post said, though you said it more eloquently. :)
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Originally posted by Midnight
So what am I supposed to do? Fly the Mustang against superior numbers in a Co-E state? Yeah.. that would mean me being shot down instead of them. Maybe if I was in an N1K I would have started turn fighting everything.
This is what makes you a good pilot eventially, fighting against odds, from the disadvantage and in inferior plane. :) I find it very enjoyable expirience also, but I understand, that people wants different from this game, so fly whatever way you like, it is ok with me. Just let me fly the way which I enjoy, too. :)
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Midnight, you can increase your k/t by another 50% by involving yourself in something rooks are hard pressed to find. MISSIONS.
Fester has been running Pony missions the last few days, and while I was reluctant at first I discovered it was not hurting my k/t any at all (aside from the killshooter from bombing/rocketing a hangar that a bishop flew near). I was accused, by a rook, of fighting a peripheral fight. Well, it must have really hurt his ego to be killed by a low and slow P51 fighting a peripheral fight right over the field and at least six flaks. I think WideWing can attest to the effectiveness of rockets against a Flak. :D
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It's smart-mouth, low-brow comments from people like you that make constructive debates turn into mud slinging contests. Do me a favor and take your imbecility somewhere else.
So coming in here and implying that anyone who cuts their engine is skilless and deserves no respect isn't making the above statement hypocritical?
Cripes.
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Originally posted by Rude
Are there other gamey ways to gain an advantage in AH?
Probably so.
Should we all be surprised that gamey things exist in a game?
I don't think so.
Cyas Up!
:)
Heya my friend. My personal opinion is "who cares" about how someone flys in the MA. But the orginal question was based on a rule for the KOTH that disallowed the use of the practice of cutting and restarting your engine in competition. That I agree with. However Wildthing (and likely others) want that rule out the window:)
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Originally posted by Fariz
This is what makes you a good pilot eventially, fighting against odds, from the disadvantage and in inferior plane. :) I find it very enjoyable expirience also, but I understand, that people wants different from this game, so fly whatever way you like, it is ok with me. Just let me fly the way which I enjoy, too. :)
The best post in this thread, hopefully Midnight can get turn his head for one moment while admiring his reflection and really read what you wrote.
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They should make ALL the planes go through the engine start sequence..Not just SOME of them.
I toggle my engine,never use the throttle wheel...If you don't like it..that's because I just shot you down.
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<>
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Originally posted by Oedipus
[B
I don't like it because it smacks of "Arcade"
Oed [/B]
Your comments smacks of whine.
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Originally posted by Oedipus
p.s.
How about one of you AW/BWers ask Earl Miller if he would have shut down his fighters engine in flight - let alone in combat.
Oed
And while you're at it ask him if he could take his head off his shoulders and set it on the dash facing backwards to get a good six view. :D
Guys, this engine kill thing isn't as big a deal as ya might wish it was. Most of the guys who use it would kill you anyways, this just makes it faster. So actually they're saving you the time of thinking you might get away and just killing you right off the bat. They're actually helping you.
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We all get that no WWII combat ace would've considered cutting the engine as a standard ACM tactic.
Of, course, no WWII combat ace would've willingly flown lone-wolf into a big-ass furball against 3-1 odds. And he certainly wouldn't choose to fly a C202 over an LA7 because bragging rights are better for kills in a 202 than for that dweeb plane.
Accept the detatchment of "real world" behavior and that which we regularly conduct in the MA.
Or is the next suggestion going to be that AH squadron XO's who don't write letters home to the families of those members who are shot down are just being "gamey".
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I don't know how skilled Midnight is as a virtual pilot. I don't think I've ever had to fight him.
I DO know how skilled guys like Fairz, Drex, DMF, and such are. Even if I played every day for the next 5 years I would never reach that level of skillfullness. It is simply beyond my ability.
So why the heck should I try to fight their fight and inevitably lose? If I'm flying in some sort of "dogfight" event (like WW), or the DA or something that is what I will do because it's "honorable".....flying "safe" or "smart" is against the spirit of that type of event. And yes, I will lose almost every time (ask anyone who has ever had a 1 vs 1 with me).
But there is no honor in the arena....it's more like gladiator combat than dueling....not always fair, you do what you have to. For guys like DMF/Lazs/Drex and such, they can stallfight all day against practically any odds and be totally successful, racking up dozens of kills in short order. Not me. I'm not at and will never reach that level of ability. I don't even TRY to improve my low-speed ACM anymore....there's no point. Instead I work on my SA and shooting and 1 vs many tactics....I will never be great in 1 vs 1 but I can still be effective in the MA and scenarios.
If I know I'm never going to be able to beat a fair number of players, I'm not even going to try...that's a waste of time. I choose a plane that simply invalidates their skill advantage.....I might not be able to kill them, but as long as I'm in a faster plane they can't kill me either unless I choose to let them.
Then it's just a matter of flying my plane well enough to beat the players I CAN defeat. In AH I don't even fly an airplane I like (I fly the 51D because I flew it in AW not because I particularly like it in AH).....I rarely fly with squaddies and I hate climbing high. I get bounced and ganged a lot, I die a lot, but at least it's my own choice as opposed to simply being at the mercy of people like DMF/Drex/Fester and such. I can't kill them....but if they're going to kill me it'll be by MY choice, not theirs :)
The moral of the story is in the arena you do what works for you. For those players who are, frankly, better than average, by all means get "down and dirty" and fight it out. For those who LIKE doing that win or lose, do the same. But for those who don't like flying around for 10 minutes just to instantly get sent back to the tower because we simply aren't as skilled at this game as some others....well different tactics are in order. There has to be a balance....there will always be SOME "opportunists".....but if you have too many gameplay goes down the toilet. There's also a very fine line between being opportunistic and being outright timid.
Yeah, that's it....do what works for you.
J_A_B
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I feel the same way when someone turns away from a potentially dangerous situation just to save their score, instead of being prepared to die for their country.
I think those people should be grounded and reassigned to front line infantry.
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Originally posted by hblair
Guys, this engine kill thing isn't as big a deal as ya might wish it was. Most of the guys who use it would kill you anyways, this just makes it faster. So actually they're saving you the time of thinking you might get away and just killing you right off the bat. They're actually helping you.
I doubt it. I've had a few fights against some of the more notables, many times being in great position for the kill shot. Then I get left wondering how the hell they made such a tight turn at the speed we were both going.
I would rather be beaten knowing the guy didn't do some 'gamey' move to get the advantage. Now that KOTH has been setup to dis-allow 'engine goosing'(TM) I'm going to be there to see just who can and can't shoot me down.
Besides, if they are going to kill you anyways, why don't they use a little more effort, and less gamey tactics. <<--- once again, this goes right back to my original question on the whole thing, that no one has really stepped up and answered....
Do you get more kills by using 'gamey' tactics, or do you go for what could realisticly be done in your plane of choice?
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I have heard this "engine off" phenomenon lately and at first thought it was just the way AH handled sounds, but quickly realized that when I heard engine off sound, they slowed down very quickly.
Now, if I hear it, and they then roll left/right, I just roll opposite and hit the WEP, or I go verticle (if I have the right speed) and cut throttle. Yup, I missed the opportunity at that instant, but still try to counter and try for another setup. This manuver, I don't think, has ever resulted in me being killed. It has just stopped or prolonged me from killing them.
It is "gamey" and the conseqence of turning your engine off should be changed. Midnight started a poll and his proposed solution is once the engine is shut off ... it will take 30 seconds to start again. Sounds good to me.
J_A_B ...
I don't know what you were trying to tell us ... BUT ... you have got to be kidding me. I have never seen anybody demean themself as badly as you just did.
If you don't aspire to fly like the pilots that you have named, you surely will NEVER progress to their level, and from what I just read, your fate is sealed. If you avoid fighting these guys, you will never learn anything. I have been waxed by all of them and everytime I get in a fight with these guys, I take something back from the encounter.
I fail to believe that these guys just loaded up the software one day and were instant aces. They must have gotten waxed like the rest of us at the beginning.
I have watched films that some of these top pilots have provided and have learned a tremendous amount from them.
Drex has one in an F6F and if memory serves me correctly, he shot down 5 or 6 planes (P51s, YAK, 190s). Not once did he cut his engine, he used all angles to defeat their solutions and snapshots to kill them. Yes he is an exceptional pilot, and from watching his film, I have been able to incorporate some of the techniques that he used, to my advantage.
Geeeesh .. don't sell yourself so short !!!
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I doubt it. I've had a few fights against some of the more notables, many times being in great position for the kill shot. Then I get left wondering how the hell they made such a tight turn at the speed we were both going.
As if it wasn't obvious this is what the thread was about from the start. Perhaps it's because they are willing fight from their plane's weaknesses and learn from it. Arcadish gamers I believe they're called.
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Originally posted by -ammo-
MA. But the orginal question was based on a rule for the KOTH that disallowed the use of the practice of cutting and restarting your engine in competition. That I agree with. However Wildthing (and likely others) want that rule out the window:)
It would be EASY to fix by making it impossible to restart for a few minutes to simulate a quick restart??
I guess its not "quite" cheating but Its gaming the sim too much I think. I wouldnt do it and feel right about it and I can kill a chute and vulch an ambulance. :D :eek: :eek: :confused: :cool:
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Originally posted by hblair
And while you're at it ask him if he could take his head off his shoulders and set it on the dash facing backwards to get a good six view. :D
Guys, this engine kill thing isn't as big a deal as ya might wish it was. Most of the guys who use it would kill you anyways, this just makes it faster. So actually they're saving you the time of thinking you might get away and just killing you right off the bat. They're actually helping you.
That's funny and true:)
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Originally posted by Midnight
I doubt it. I've had a few fights against some of the more notables, many times being in great position for the kill shot. Then I get left wondering how the hell they made such a tight turn at the speed we were both going.
I would rather be beaten knowing the guy didn't do some 'gamey' move to get the advantage. Now that KOTH has been setup to dis-allow 'engine goosing'(TM) I'm going to be there to see just who can and can't shoot me down.
Besides, if they are going to kill you anyways, why don't they use a little more effort, and less gamey tactics. <<--- once again, this goes right back to my original question on the whole thing, that no one has really stepped up and answered....
Do you get more kills by using 'gamey' tactics, or do you go for what could realisticly be done in your plane of choice?
You've kinda surprised me midnight. I always thought you were pretty level-headed. I guess this thread is just about pride after all.
I'm glad to see you'll participate in KOTH. It's a fun event. You'll have to be diversified in your plane preference though. Any fighter can be chosen. And you have to mix it up too. I look forward to seeing you there.
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"Geeeesh .. don't sell yourself so short !!!"
I've been playing these air combat games for around 6 years now--not as long as some, but still a signifigant amount of time. I'm no newbie.
I don't sell myself short. I realistically appraise my skills. My 1 vs 1 ability is somewhat poor and even if I worked at it as much as I used to I'd never reach the level of guys like DMF/Drex/Fairz/Nath and such. That's not demeaning, any more than my realizing I'll never be as good a racecar driver as Mario Andretti is. Some people just have a knack for certain things.
In a game like AH you really have to be able to hold your own against the horde. I hate the horde. I hate losing to the horde. The really top-notch pilots can wade into the horde and win.....if I were to do that my best hope would be to take 1 or 2 with me before I go down....not fun for me. So instead I fly and fight by different rules, rules that work for ME.
We all have different ideas of "fun" and different goals for ourselves. Far from being disappointed with myself, I'm perfectly happy with myself as far as AH is concerned.
Really, how you feel about yourself (how much FUN you have) is the ONLY thing that matters in AH.
The only players I truly disrespect are those who deliberately try to ruin the game for other players (so-called "grief players").
J_A_B
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As long as the inflight shut down and start up reflects at least a quasi-imitation of reality Im ok with it. If thats the case then Im on my way, but I have a sneeky suspician that this procedure is taking advantage of a flaw in the game. I have had this thing explained to me but Im simply not convinced.
Of course I wish PYRO would say something on this matter but I cant possibly hope to hold my breath that long and expect to live.
I could be mistaken, I usually am.
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Asked by Midnight:
Do you get more kills by using 'gamey' tactics, or do you go for what could realisticly be done in your plane of choice?
I achieve all of my kills by displaying superior tactical pilot stuff, not to mention a level of courage second to none combined with the daunting good looks of the most handsome group of young stallions in the game....yes.....you know who I'm speaking of....THE MIGHTY 13th TAS!!!!!!
Oh....and Hblair....get ready for a Dose of Danger....a Helping of Hurt! Cyas Wednesday:)
It's Friday man.....Farout!
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Originally posted by Voss
Midnight, you can increase your k/t by another 50% by involving yourself in something rooks are hard pressed to find. MISSIONS.
Fester has been running Pony missions the last few days, and while I was reluctant at first I discovered it was not hurting my k/t any at all (aside from the killshooter from bombing/rocketing a hangar that a bishop flew near). I was accused, by a rook, of fighting a peripheral fight. Well, it must have really hurt his ego to be killed by a low and slow P51 fighting a peripheral fight right over the field and at least six flaks. I think WideWing can attest to the effectiveness of rockets against a Flak. :D
Yeah you got me, but my turret had been knocked out by the previous attempts to kill my FP, 6 of which should have reconsidered their options. Had it been up and working, the only thing to be attested to would be my ability to put a round right between your blinkers at 2k. ;) As Fester can attest to in spades. :D Rocket runs on Ostwinds are not advisable. You have to get within death ray range to launch. Bombs are far more effective due to a much larger blast area, and the fact that they are released at far greater distance.
But hey, some days you're the windshield, some days you're the bug.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by hblair
You've kinda surprised me midnight. I always thought you were pretty level-headed. I guess this thread is just about pride after all.
This has absolutely nothing to do with my pride at all. Now I know that the tactic is being used, I will just do what I need to to avoid it.
My 'crusade' as some people put it, was to simply find out who uses gamey tactics and who doesn't. However, the intollerable volume of the whining and acusing me of being some sort of cry baby about the whole thing prompted a more direct approach of me asking for a poll on the subject of engine restarts.
I think what has been discovered is that the 'gamey' tactic users all retaliated against me like I was some sort of national criminal. You know what? I don't give a flying expletive what they think and I never will.
My nature is to be competitive in everything I do. I play by the rules, and I don't try to bend them or maniplate some sort of abstract view of how they should be inturpreted so I can gain an edge against everyone else. In law, I believe they are called 'loop holes'. Tax evaders use them all the time.
If people want to game the game, go ahead and do it, just don't cry like a little girl when I call you on it. If someone doesnt like me, that's their choice. It doesn't effect me either way. If someone wants to try and put me down by calling me names, that's their choice, and again, don't cry like a little girl when I call you on it.
I fly my Mustang as high and fast as I see fit for the situation. Sometimes I end up being the highest and fastest plane in the area. Other times, I find bandits even higher or faster than me. Do you see me in here crying about all the turn fighters and alt-monkeys? No, I do what I have to do to try and get out of the bad situation and find an advantage. If that means running all the way back to a friendly base to get in AA... Guess what.. I am going to do it. If you choose to follow me in and get shot down, don't whine at me. If the tables were reveresed, I wouldn't follow you into your AA. If I find myself getting into a turn fight with an LA7 and I'm loosing position.. I'm running.. damn right.
If people aren't honest enough to just state the facts about the question I asked, then I really have no use of listening to them in the first place.
So I ask one last time.... Do you (any player) use the 'gamey' tricks available to you in AH, or do you try to fly within the parameters that were relistically possible for for chosen aircraft?
Answer the question or don't bother responding.
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Yeah, you're being persucuted by the gamerz.
All you did is ask if people fly like you do or are they just gaming the game? Why did they turn on you so with such a fair and constructively worded question?
As with the last thread of yours, nobody cares how you fly. They care about you squeaking about how everybody else flies.
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Without a doubt gaming, I have no skill
:)
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When you use words and phrases like skill and gaming the game when discussing your time spent playing this GAME then I think you have lost perspective . If you play this game you are a gamer .
Skill ? AH is not a vocation. Welding is a skill, phlebotomy is a skill, video game proficiency is not a skill . Take a few steps back and gain a clearer perspective .
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If you play this game you are a gamer
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Problem Samm is theres a simulation packaged within the game.
Sim heads are in constant motion rubbing up against the game heads. A Clash of Cultures so to speak. Problem is this past year has seen the ratio of simmers to gamers drop to about 1-9.
Before about November of last year I would have put it at 6-4 in favour of the sim heads. Its been a hard year, trust me.
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Well it is after all a game, I think, maybe.
Salute to all the players who aren't carefull what they post on the BBS, this has been entertaining reading lately.
Bigger Salute to the players who jump all over it, without you guys there wouldn't be any reason to check the board:)
Also it's great to know why Wldthing hasn't been able to keep up.
Ya have ta restart your engine little buddy:)
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A simulation is a category of video game, one which I enjoy, but I have no pretense that AH is more than just a game . Some seem to have a losened grip on this basic fact, even to the point of emotional agitation . My advise to them is as I stated above, disjoin themselves from the game, take a few paces back and adjust their perspective, or they can wait untill misfortune imposes a reality check .
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If I'm in a really tight scissors fite,your damn right I'm going to kill my engine.I'm also pounding on the flaps key,the landing gear key,applying full rudder to opposite aileron..all at the same time.
If you think it's gamey,that's because I shot you down.
The "dweeb tactics" accusations make me laugh...Example..
The Spit 1a...A negative G roll,the engine sputters to cuttoff,he overshoots...You are then called an "engine cuttoff dweeb"...
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Technical term is blipping, from WWI, when aircraft had no throttle.
In reality, what is the performance difference between blipping and throttling back, does someone have some hard and fast stats? Are we talking 10%, 20%, 50%?
Originally posted by Midnight
Now that KOTH has been setup to dis-allow 'engine goosing'(TM)
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I've never heard of engine bliping. Is that when someone starts and stops the engine. There is some performance in terms of handeling and etc... when the engine is off though I never have used this technic. I only resort to it if my own engine is dead. As far as scissors. I feel that its sort of initially like rock paper scissors when you enter it. If I feel the other guy is cutting curves better I'll take him into the verticle (I never shut my motor off) to whatever degree is required. This wont matter if a spit or a zero is on your near tail then again shouldnt sciccor with those planes anyhow. IMHO, in that situation, youve already lost (vs spit or zero) really in terms of planning, luck is next tactic.
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In WW1 a lot of the rotary engines used blip switches in place of a throttle mechanism. The blip switch grounded the magneto and prevented ignition. However, the fuel contrinued to flow and if this practice was repeated for any length of time the plane was in severe danger of catching fire once the engine was started again.
Rotaries were not the only types with this, but blip switches were the norm for them.
Throttle blipping is a modern day practice of down-shifting in motorcycles and should not be confused with a blip switch.
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Anything that can so radically alter your E state and is not possible in a ww2 fighter should not be possible here.
Especially as it would be so easy to fix in the program.
I do shut off me engine. but only to dump E to land, or to save cooling on a damaged engine or to save fuel in a glide. Never occured to me to try it in combat.
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Don't believe Pongo. He's been an engine toggler since day one.
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i just pull throttle to idle, i never switched off my engine, whats the difference? If you guys wanna complain really we should have engine flame outs for the mustang.
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Zigrat, the difference is that turning the engine off slows you down faster than throwing the throttle to idle.
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I don't think theres difference Zig, but it looks like I'm alone in that. Even Hitech says its so.
All i know is that theres no difference in glide whether the engine is idling or off. To me that says drag is the same.
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Samm!
I suggest you keep that thought to yourself!
You are making entirely too much sense for this board!!
Nice try though, I'll give you an "A" for effort!
:)
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Kind of a funny post, considering I sit at my desk in my comfy chair wearing a pink tutu and tiarra with a beer in one hand and interchanging between joystick and ham sandwich with the other hand while dogfighting what are at best "representations" of aircraft on this little screen in front of me.
I've actually played dodgeball with Midnight in the MA and lost every time and do not think anything wrong with that fighting style. In fact, it's deadly and I admire his skill and wish I was better at that dodgeball game. And I thought historically from day one, pilots strived for superior altitude and speed which culminated with the Korean War. Historically, most who died never saw there opponent and thus you can then discern that most kills were not via wild dogfights. To critique someone's killing style seems absurd. I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. This is a game for entertainment purposes. If you get a thrill out of flying an LA7 on the deck (dweeb), go for it...and if you prefer to not get drawn in a tail-chase engagement but rather swoop in from the heavens after beating an opponent down with team-tactics, more power to you. If you need to win by cutting the engine on and off, that is part of the physics of the MA universe. Judging by the few aircraft most typically encountered in the MA, most are looking for any crutch they can to help them succeed and I wouldn't be surprised if there are other "tricks" in addition to the engine cut thing.
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Originally posted by Oedipus
What Midnight just said, "Here's a post I yanked from the KOTH forum, ..." and the discussion in the KOTH topic. It's 100% dead on IMO.
And please stop comparing modern civil aircraft engines that have reliable built-in starters, electronic ignition and operate with 'point-click' ease with those from 60 years ago.
Oed
Oed,
Electronic ignition is not the norm in GA aircraft. It is still undergoing a certification fight with the FAA and can only be installed on an existing airframe as either an experimental option or under an existing STC. Even the LASAR system uses a magneto. The "shower of sparks" idea is the old low tension magneto coupled with a coil at every cylinder. I have a 1939 engine maintenence manual that shows an inline engine with that type of system. Yep pretty cutting edge. :rolleyes:
By and far, even in experimental aircraft the good old magneto is still being used. The same freaking starters are being used as well. Ever see a real aircraft starter???? The damn things are huge compared to auto starters. The major change is in battery charging where alternator conversions are pretty common. There are still quite a few birds out there with the old DC generators though. The new lighter "hitech" starters are simply ones using permanent magnets in the old design system that allows it to operate with lower voltage draw.
When it comes down to it, there is damn little in the way of wonder engines out there. The technology is STILL in the 40's and 50's. Don't believe it? Go ask a few A&P's about it. Talk to the older ones that have the experiance to know.
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From Flight Journal "Flying the P-38"
Without much thought, I was entering his preferred combat maneuver; power up, I pictured a 109 on my tail and began an increasingly steep right-hand climbing turn. In turning and twisting with 109s and 190s, Dad never got a bullet hole in Tangerine, his P-38F. As the speed dropped below 150mph, I flipped the flap handle to the maneuver stop (which can be used up to 250mph) and steepened the turn. At this point, the 109 pilot, at full power with the right rudder all the way down, would have snap-rolled into a vicious stall if he had chosen to follow.I pulled the power back on the inside (right) engine, pushed the power up on the outside (left) engine, shoved right rudder pedal, and the Lightning smoothly swapped ends. Not only did it turn on a dime, but it actually rotated around its vertical axis as if spinning on a pole running through the top of the canopy and out the bottom of the cockpit. The maneuver was absolutely comfortable with no heavy G-loading. As the nose came through 180 degrees, I threw the flap lever back to full up, evened the throttles and headed downhill going through 300mph in less time than it takes to tell it. The 109 would have been a sitting duck.
cutting or reducing the throttle was a common tactic. Also, P-38's had a feather switch for use in one engine operations which would reduce the drag. So HTC actually has it right in regards to the speeds of engines off as opposed to idle.
(http://t2maw4.homestead.com/files/f4banner.jpg)
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Of course they wouldn't oedipus, they were in a slightly different situation. They couldn't just hop right back in the plane after they were killed. We can though. What's realistic about being able to replane after you just lost your life ?
When your life is at stake I would think you would fly a little more cautiously wouldn't you? Do you think tactics that were actually possible in rea life should be done away with in this game simply because they were too high a risk for a real life WWII pilot? You're for "dummying down" something that is possible simply because it was risky in real life?
What about goons wandering into enemy territory by themselves?
What about spit 109E's fighting ME262's in the same arena?
The list could go on and on. You guys just need to adapt. I know that's a tough pill to swallow, but the sooner the better. ;)
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Ya know, I've walked both paths in online sims and neither are right or wrong.
If Midnight wants to fly the Mustang as it was historically flown, more power to him and to those who don't like it, well, get over it.
The 13th TAS used to fly in this manner until we decided to improve our overall skill set....now we employ the style of flying which best suits the enviroment. It was our choice as a squad....trust me, the question never arose that golly, if we adapt a different fighting style, will others in the AH community approve? We could care less what others think...we are selfishly here to do one thing, kill lots of folks and do it together as a group of friends.
I guess the bottom line here, as far as I'm concerned, is that folks should fly in the way which makes their time spent online enjoyable.
As to killing engines and such, it doesn't bother me in the least.....It would sure be nice to blame someone or something else for me getting shot down. When I go down in flames, it's due to poor decision making on my part or just getting outsmarted and outflown by my adversaries.
No excuses from me or my squad.
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Originally posted by Oedipus
So should WB's ever get it's act together (very slim chance of that) or Target:Windbag actually releases something simulating anything you "gamers" might be able to have a party to celebrate ridding AH of me or other "simists' that leave.
Oed
Good call.
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Oedipus, exactly what difference is there in decceleration between cutting engine and throttling back? You don't know?
What of sitting your head on the dash for a six view? Ammo counters? etc. etc.
You don't even know if cutting engine even offers an advantage. So what's the point?
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I don't care much about the ammo counters, dash head, etc. I realize there's gotta be concessions.
As for the engine cutting...
From what I've read it DOES appear to provide an advantage.
You admit you don't even know that there's an advantage. It's all hearsay and rumor. But you and others call it gamey. :) How do you know this isn't all a big joke? ;)
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From what you've read where? I've repeatedly asked for results of any testing in these various threads while sharing the results of mine, which indicate less drag when the engine is turned off than when the throttle is cut.
All I can conclude from the lack of it is that this is simply the latest red herring dangled around as the reason someone lost.
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The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Oh, nevermind, it's not. (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68348)
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You know I'll miss this excuse when it's gone, it really does grow on you.
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as far as engine cutting i havent tried it,i usually cut trhottle and salm the rudder and HOPE for an overshoot, hell half the time i end up dead.... as far as head veiws go, well i'm 6'1" tall are you saying i wouldn't sit higher in the cockpit than say a 5'6" man?? just mo