Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Midnight on October 18, 2002, 02:39:16 PM
-
Now that we know it happens, are you for or against HTC implementing code that would make restarting a hot engine take more time. (For sake of discussion, let's say 30 seconds for the engine to restart after it has been shut down) Please, leave the reasoning in the other thread, just answer
A. For : you want engine restart 30 second restriction.
B. Against : you want to be able to start and stop engines at will.
My vote: A. For
-
A.For
-
a4
-
A: for
However, I'd much rather see random failures if you abuse your engine in such a manner....cut it in combat a couple times and it MIGHT restart....or WHAM you might have a dead engine.
J_A_B
-
definitely for. Also, going on a tangent, I just read that when early carburators on Merlins cut off because of negative G's, the engine would make a bang and a puff of smoke. I'd really like that modelled.
-
A. For
-
B
-
C. This crusade is silly.
-
what are you going to do about the spit mk1 and hurri mk1 ?
-
Public opinion stopped carbombers...hope this gets addressed by HTC also...
A
-
A
The game is getting silly
-
A
I'm too old to learn a new trick.
-
What were the choices again?
Ack-Ack
-
A. For - Although I would be happy if engine restarts only took as long as it takes to start an engine on the runway before takeoff. This "instant restart" by hitting E in-flight is bad.
-
A. For
-
3 !
-
D. Whatever was a realistic re-start time for that particular engine under the given circumstances.
I.E. A plane zoom/gliding at 400 mph with a hot recently shut-down motor and a windmilling prop may actually have been able to re-start quickly. I know that in my car, if I turn the key/ignition off for a few seconds while the car is in gear, and I then key the ignition back on, it regains power almost instantly (standard transmission). Perhaps some WWII aircraft engines would have also behaved this way.
It would also seem possible that an aircraft engine with a mechanical fuel pump could become flooded by a windmilling prop and then be a squeak to re-start.
A cold engine and a feathered/non-windmilling prop should take some time, however.
I'd like the restart time to match research/reality, not someone's guesswork. (No offense Midnight)
eskimo
-
B. Against
When trying to type on the radio, I sometimes mess up and hit "e", stopping my engine. For example, when typing "CHUTE!" on the squad channel. If I can't re-start the engine right away, Fatty will steal my chute.
As far as people shutting off their engine as a tactic, I couldn't care less.
-
A
-
A.
-
A.For
*Also agree with J_A_B
-
B
I'd only be for it being implemented if it was as long as engine runup
Midnight, this little crusade makes you look like a fool.
-
D. Doesn't diddlying matter, I'll kill you anyway.
-
Let me go a little further into my explanation
Do I use realistic tactics? Yes. In a 109, I usually use hblair's 'monkey logic' (see assassin page on 109s) to kill people with 30mm.
However on the deck, fightin Spits and La7s and idiot P-51s, knife fighting, riding the stall in the weeds (stuff you don't know much about), yeah I'll cut my engine. 90% of the time it's when someone is on my six and I want to perform evasives while knowing where they are by the sound of their engine. (right now I can't fly because my dopplar sound is broken and i use it extensively)
Like HB said, it's not that big of a deal and just because you wanna fly the most ultra-realistic p-51 sim out there doesn't mean that hitechs valuable time should be wasted on a bug or feature or whatever that gives such a slight edge. You don't lose a fight because someone cut their engine. You lose it long before that IMO.
I'd rather see a revamp of the entire engine management system then a quick fix of something MAJOR MIDNIGHT, CO 412TH thinks is so much of a factor in the game. Here's a clue -> it's not.
-
:rolleyes:
Also watch your language Shane.
-
For
I'm also for mandatory time-outs for whiners that have a third, fourth, or even fifth choice.:D
-
A
-
B.
-
Originally posted by john9001
what are you going to do about the spit mk1 and hurri mk1 ?
Different altogether. There is NO fuel pouring into the engine in these cases. However, just flipping the mag switch to "off" then back to "on" does not significantly reduce induction draft, meaning that raw fuel is pouring into the cylinders. Switching back to "on" at this point may result in several very undesirable problems that can leave you with a misfiring or dead engine.
My regards,
Widewing
-
Originally posted by rogwar
:rolleyes: Also watch your language Shane.
i was watching exactly what I typed. save your *daddy* tone for someone who cares. or go thru the entire board and post this same thing for anyone you see using a naughty word.
til then STFU and get off my leg.
-
C. This crusade is silly.
Agreed.
dago
-
bah, if you're going to run a poll, do it right. :D
Engine shutdown should be based on reality. If a windmilling engine would restart instantly, then so should it in the game. If you'd have to perform a 30 second process to do so, then fine, let it take 30 seconds.
Just because a tactic wasn't used in the real world, doesn't make it invalid. We don't have to deal with reliability issues, trying to put in things to account for an engine not always restarting is going into reliability problems. In the real world, if you shut down your engine, it may not restart, making it a big risk. Everything in AH is 100% reliable.
There is no reason for an artificial, or arbitrary restart delay.
(oh, and on a sidenote, I never shut down my engine in combat, although it does make the 109s that do it quite a lot easier to kill. :D)
-
A
MRPLUTO VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~ MAG-33
-
A
-
A
-
haha
Brought to you by the letters..
F & U
-
A
-
I think the
[SIZE=20]A[/SIZE] 's
have it
-
I love these whine polls. Who needs to read Shaw? I just learned a new "tactic"
Thanks.
-
Some engines can be restarted pretty close to instantly. Depends on why/how it stopped running.
And no, it doesnt always do nasty things.
A true story - Richard Bong, while flying his P38 in a fight against Zeros, noticed a Zero going after another P38, with damage obvious. Bong shut down one engine, flew as to distract the Zero, after the Zero made a pass on Bong, he fired up the dead engine, engaged and killed the Zero.
Didn't take him a long time to restart it.
Dont push for something if you have no idea if it is historically and operationally correct. A windmilling engine only needs fuel and ignition to run, shutting it down in flight in a hurry would only take about a second or two, turning back on the fuel or igntion again would only take about the same amount of time. In a combat situation a pilot could have it up and at power very fast. In the civilian world when starting up an engine in flight, its more common to let it warm up at idle for a short time to avoid thermal stress.
How about we dont sweat the small stuff and instead hope that HTC works on new versions and significant improvements?
Dago
-
Against.
I'm here to play a game not dabble in silly posturing for dubious "enhancements". FWIW, not all engines are difficult to start hot. Quite a few do very nicely thank you. There is no possible way this makes the game any better except for those who think they will get a few more vulch kills.
-
Exactly Dago!
-
Fresh outta rat's asses...
-
.
-
I really miss car bombing. :(
-
B
with all due respect midnight, this is getting a touch annoying.
:(
-
I am all for it- whatever it is- provided it doesn't raise my taxes and they don't build it in my neighborhood.
-
How bout E:
Yer Momma
Liztard
-
I just learned a new "tactic"
Don't tell me you're gonna use it?
-
Originally posted by Fatty
C. This crusade is silly.
D. Just because it is my usual mark from school time :)
-
I think they should model your crew chief kicking your bellybutton after doing that to his plane.
A.
Shutting your engine on and off repeatedly in combat is gamey.
-
What reason is there to shut the engine off, except to be able to hear the enemy, which can be archived easier by configuring internal engine sounds off?
-
A
There is no way high performance piston engines can be re-lit at will after an inflight shutdown. (especially PW R2800's - they barely start when babied :))
-
A for it I want more of sim than game.
-
[size=8]A[/size]
I like this thread... starting to make a few members of the self appointed HTC Anti-Whiner league look a bit whiney themselves.
-
well most engines i know in RL will pretty much instantly startp again if you switch the ignition off and back on when windmilling ... you'd prolly get some nasty exhaust flames but what the heck... but who in his right mind would switch off an engine in flight unless it's required ?
-
If you're squeaking about it, make the engine startup/shutdown routine more complicated. Mixture, mags, the works. Jus punishing someone for hitting the "E" key or not flying a mustang and falling asleep when the fuel selector's not on auto is a non-solution.
-
Has anyone actually looked at this?
Offline I get identical times for both chopping throttle and cutting engine when:
Timing hurricane I at 7k from 200 IAS until autopilot can no longer hold level.
Timing 109g10 at 8k from 200 IAS until autopilot can no longer hold level.
Timing p51-d decelleration at 5k from 350 IAS to 250 IAS on autopilot.
-
Originally posted by Duckwing6
well most engines i know in RL will pretty much instantly startp again if you switch the ignition off and back on when windmilling ... you'd prolly get some nasty exhaust flames but what the heck... but who in his right mind would switch off an engine in flight unless it's required ?
From Shaw's "Fighter Combat".
"Make no movement gently, but be as violent as possible. Pull back on the stick and apply left rudder at the same time. It might rip the wings out of your plane, but if you're a goner anyway, what's the difference".
When it comes to survival you do whatever can save your life. I think that I read about soviet pilots switched engines off during spain war, but could not find it in my books. I am sure it happened during war, though was not any common practice.
Now to this thread and its questions:
My vote is for a more realistic engine behaviour as a whole, but not as a top priority, and many things shall be taken into consideration before any change.
Really, aks yourself, how often you meet such behaviour (engine switching off in combat) in AH, and how much you think it affects your AH expirience. Also, good question is how much time it will take to model a correct engine behaviour in case of switch off, for each engine and each situation (how hot was engine, how long it stayed off, what was plane speed etc.). Then think how many other things which are not implemented yet requires work, or more gamey now (for examply bailing, it is extrememly unrealistic, try to bail at 400 mph in a real fight), and ask yourself if you really want it to be fixed right now and right here.
I do not even say that in AH you can switch engine off by accident by pressing one button instead of other. Are you sure your solution in this case is better than the problem itself? We have such examples in AH, when fix was a bigger pain, than problem itself. For examply UDP/TCP switch. I saw not a single invisible plane, but UDP switch kickes me out of AH every 5th sortie.
-
Retesting I also did a longer p51 decelleration from 350 IAS to 200 IAS at 5k.
Again, no difference between chopping throttle and cutting engine.
-
Originally posted by Fatty
Retesting I also did a longer p51 decelleration from 350 IAS to 200 IAS at 5k.
Again, no difference between chopping throttle and cutting engine.
try testing where you pull a 4-g turn for 3 secs and see the results... use a 109g10 for the test as well... i think it'll affect certain planes more than others.
in any case, imho, it doesn't make enough of a difference to be worthwhile, except it may be a tad wee tiny microcosmically faster than cutting throttle. maybe.
-
Originally posted by Shane
try testing where you pull a 4-g turn for 3 secs and see the results... use a 109g10 for the test as well... i think it'll affect certain planes more than others.
in any case, imho, it doesn't make enough of a difference to be worthwhile, except it may be a tad wee tiny microcosmically faster than cutting throttle. maybe.
but of course, this is a top priority item and must be fixed by htc immediately!
screw that mission arena, i want to make sure that i can fight and extend and run around with my purty p-51 without any chance of some lucky newbie killing me using anything other then those tactics.
-
Yeah Fatty, I got the same results by looking at the glide rate with engine off and idling.
And shane, with your test you have to hold exactly 4Gs and keep exactly the same alt or the data will be screwed up. Or you do a buttload of tests and hope the incosinstencies average out. Either way its well beyond Fatty's capabilities.
-
if it keeps him too busy from stinkin' up the MA with his dweeby gamerisms...
:p
-
The g key only does gear, no matter how many times I press it.
-
C. This crusade is silly.
-
I pick C
Fatty is wise.
Fatty
-
Originally posted by Fariz
I am sure it happened during war, though was not any common practice.
I don't think you will be able to find one reference for it.
Really, aks yourself, how often you meet such behaviour (engine switching off in combat) in AH, and how much you think it affects your AH expirience. [/B]
I have seen it quite often recently.
Certain aspects of AH are more 'gamey' than others for good reason, but this goes right to the ACM heart of the game which should emphasize realistic tactics.
-
I don't think you will be able to find one reference for it.
I could not, or it would be here already :) I can't even swear that I read this, though I thought I did. Someone mentioned that Bong switched p38 engine in fight just resently, you can search forums and ask this person for a source.
I have seen it quite often recently.
We fly the different games probably. I saw it couple times in last 6 month.
What is most ironic, that this thread actually will increase the behaviour it fights against, not decrease it. Many people will try this "silver bullet", thinking it will give them a real advantage in fight. They soon will realize, that they keep dieing as often as before though, if not more often, so it will calm down shortly.
Certain aspects of AH are more 'gamey' than others for good reason, but this goes right to the ACM heart of the game which should emphasize realistic tactics.
95% of AH pilots flying with auto trim switched on (more or less, but around it). Auto trim is arcadish, and not realistic, because you can't manage the trims the way computer do (you can better, or you can worse, but the reason why it was added is because people who can do it better are few). You think something like turning engine off in fight by 0.1%(more or less, but around it) of player is more threat to the "heart of ACM"? :)
Again, I am fullheartly for a realistic engine management, though lot more things are higher in my list, like better dammage model. (You know that you can sink CV in AH by .303s only?) I also want the ballance between realism and game to be here, or it can be no fun eventually. I do not want to push 7 buttons to start la7 wep, as it was in a real life.
This subjects could be more effective, if put with good arguments to the gameplay forum. It worked before. In contrast going to general not often helps. The more pushy you try to do it, the less are chances HTC will do it. They are people also, as all of us they do not like to be pushed.
-
Y?
-
Originally posted by Fariz
95% of AH pilots flying with auto trim switched on (more or less, but around it). Auto trim is arcadish, and not realistic, because you can't manage the trims the way computer do (you can better, or you can worse, but the reason why it was added is because people who can do it better are few). You think something like turning engine off in fight by 0.1%(more or less, but around it) of player is more threat to the "heart of ACM"? :)
Do those players that are overmodeled already need another way of improving their tactics by beeing able to turn the engine off? Seems unfair compared to those who fly worse - and can't get a benefit from turning the engine off.
If it was possible IRL, leave it. If not, change it. Real engine management would probably the biggest fun.
PS: Though it will surely make answering the channel 2 questions "how do I start my engine" more complicated :D
-
Originally posted by ccvi
If it was possible IRL, leave it. If not, change it.
It is a very questionable criteria. :) Implement it with zeal, and AH will last couple more days, not longer.
Fariz
-
Originally posted by Busher
A
There is no way high performance piston engines can be re-lit at will after an inflight shutdown. (especially PW R2800's - they barely start when babied :))
Not true
-
Originally posted by Rude
Not true
Yes it is.
-
A: For it.
-
B against!
-
I say punish anyone not using an authentic WW2 joystick. Dock their perk points! Pork their monitors! Give them the old CTD on a regular basis! That will sort the men from the boys. . .
-
Whoah, sorry! Evil Taiaha just grabbed control of the keyboard there for a moment. Good Taiaha is back in charge once again.
It's not that this poll is silly, it's just pointless. I for one would love to see engine behavior that's a little more realistic: fly too long with WEP and you fry your motor; those planes that relied on various kinds of injection to achieve WEP, have a fixed limit of the substance, etc. I'd also like to see guns that overheat or jam in high g maneuvres.
But it aint gonna happen, because HTC have repeatedly said they don't want to introduce the element of mechanical failure into the equation (random damange bugs in bombers, that's a different story!). And they'll see this as the first step on that particularly slippery slope.
-
Some engines (namely certain American ones) were started by a shotgun cartridge firing into the engine..
I'd imagine once you start 'em you couldn't restart 'em... but then again, you aren't supposed to be able to start a car without using the ignition... but I can just roll start any car with a manual trans by popping it into first at 10MPH...
So, could you restart one of those engines in flight by using the prop shaft as the means to restart it?
Of course, to me the engine issue is moot... lets get some fuggin gunjams in here already!
-SW
-
Have a increasing per-centage chance of engine damage with every restart after take off.
This way only the people that constantly abuse restarts will get nailed.
You could have the percent chance of failure reset on the rearm pad if you wanted.
What do you think?
-
I think gunjams should be modelled first.
-SW
-
A
-
Hmmm... all this worrying about the realism of instant air starts...
Meanwhile, we have such realism as killshooter to contend with. :rolleyes:
-
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Hmmm... all this worrying about the realism of instant air starts...
Meanwhile, we have such realism as killshooter to contend with. :rolleyes:
Kill shooter is game concession, HTC has said so.
As far as I know they haven't made statement about constant engine restarts.
-
There is no way high performance piston engines can be re-lit at will after an inflight shutdown. (especially PW R2800's - they barely start when babied
Not true. To verify, I checked with a friend of mine, who has a tremendous amount of experience with R2800s. To get a glimpse of his credentials, check this page: Randy (http://www.avweb.com/articles/profiles/rsohn/index.html)
I'd imagine once you start 'em you couldn't restart 'em... but then again, you aren't supposed to be able to start a car without using the ignition... but I can just roll start any car with a manual trans by popping it into first at 10MPH...
Yes, you can easily restart an aircraft engine in flight while it is still windmilling. Even if you feather it, if you have electric unfeathering or accumulator unfeathering, you would restart with windmilling, and its almost unknown to be able to feather the prop on a single engine aircraft of that era anyway.
All you do is turn on the ignition and push the mixture out of cutoff and you can expect a start. If someone wanted to make a quick cut and restart, he would only have to cut the fuel mixture for a moment or two, then open the mixture control back up. easy as pie, and the results are "varoooom".
Dago
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
Kill shooter is game concession, HTC has said so.
As far as I know they haven't made statement about constant engine restarts.
Thanks... I feel better now. :p
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
Yes it is.
20000+ hrs in fighters to airliners and the owner of a warbird say you're mistaken.
and your qualifications are?
-
i do know that a piston engen will sart up almost imediantly when windmilling.
-
ewwww! Rude layin down da smack right on top uh thrawns noggin...
-
Let me put a BIG FORK into this idea by giving you all a better idea.
What if you are like me, you manage your fuel tanks manually. This is especially important for us Luftwaffe pilots flying the Fw-190's, or the 202/205 aircraft.
I generally run certain tanks dry and sometimes I need to restart my engine. Is it fair to punish pilots who need a simple restart? NO
What you can do is this...IF YOU MANUALLY SHUT DOWN THE ENGINE, THE TIME TO RESTART SHOULD BE 15 SECONDS. Let's make the assumption that if you shut down your engine in flight, it causes you to feather your prop, cut your fuel to starve the engine, and then adjusting the fuel mixture to dry from lean. If you restart it, you push your mixture to lean, push in the throttle a little, and engage the prop clutch. That should at least take 15 seconds in real life.
However, if you run a fuel tank dry, or cause a fuel starve situation, simply switching tanks should restart the engine automatically.
This is how it should work in Aces High.
-
Originally posted by Rude
20000+ hrs in fighters to airliners and the owner of a warbird say you're mistaken.
and your qualifications are?
Rude,Busher is an airline pilot who also has lots of experience in piston pounders I do believe...Still I don't know who is right about this...Interesting for sure..
-
Rude,Busher is an airline pilot who also has lots of experience in piston pounders I do believe...Still I don't know who is right about
I dont know Busher, but I will take my friend Randys word over anyone regarding operating warbird engines. Randy tells me that restarting a windmilling warbird engine, including the 2800 is easy. I would venture to say I suspect Randy has shutdown and restarted more radial engines inflight than probably most about anyone else in this country. He has a long history of providing training in warbirds, and is also one of the few a person sees for a LOA or Type Rating in Warbirds.
See my above post for a link to a profile of Randy.
dago
-
A
-
What's this discussion about windmilling??
In the game the engine is usualy killed when flying 90 degree upwards before winging over, and then restarted immediately. The aircraft is at near 0 knots, and not even moving forward exactly.
Now... is THAT kind of restart possible or not? Go and ask him please.
-
Originally posted by Rude
20000+ hrs in fighters to airliners and the owner of a warbird say you're mistaken.
and your qualifications are?
What Loin said. I wan't relying on my qualifications. I was relying on Busher's.
20000+ hr pilot, who's father was a highly decorated WW2 pilot says YOUR wrong. Muahahah!
-
20000+ hr pilot, who's father was a highly decorated WW2 pilot says YOUR wrong. Muahahah!
I am never wrong! :)
Well, I guess he is approaching 2/3rd's of Randys time by now, and Randy is a retired 747 driver.
Btw, 20,000 hr flown in an airliner is irrelevant to discussions about Warbird engine operations.
For what it's worth, Randy:
Flew the B29 Fifi out of storage to the CAF for restortation,
Trained the other CAF pilots to fly Fifi, and he still flies it today,
Has flown pretty much every B17 still operating in this country,
Has extensive experience in B25s, and was an instructor in them,
Can talk at length about the flight characteristics of every piston warbird flown by the USA, and alot of other countries because he has flown them all extensively,
Is the Chief Pilot of the NDPER program, the Examiners who issue type ratings and LOAs to fly warbirds,
Some of the aircraft he checks people out in include;
In addition to the fighters,
AD-4N
G-TBM
G-F3
B-17
B-247
FO-5
B-307
BU-2000
B-24
B-377
CV-LB30
CV-P4Y
DC-4
DC-6
DC-7
L-1049
C-46
C-47
DC-2
DC-3
DC-3S
DC-B18
DC-B23
HW-500
L-14
L-18
LB-34
PV-1
PV-2
C-82
CV-240
CV-340
CV-440
DC-A20
DC-A24
DC-B26
DH-4
FA-119
FA-C123
L-P38
L-202
M-404
M-B26
N-B25
NH-P61
L-P2V
CV-PBY*
G-111*
G-73*
G-S2
G-52
G-F7F
SK-43
SK-44
CV-PBY
G-111
G-73
SA-16
During checkouts on multi-engine warbirds, shutting an engine down was a typical event. Now, if Randy tells me that restarting a warbird engine in flight is easy to do, I will believe him. To be honest, I really do not believe there is a more qualified individual on Warbirds and Warbird engines in the country.
For interesting reading:
Randy (http://www.avweb.com/articles/profiles/rsohn/index.html)
Warbird Engine Operation (http://www.enginehistory.org/operation.htm)
-
B because......
.....I don't think it makes a significant difference. If somebody shuts down their engine in flight and gains an advantage that allows them to wax you, they probably would've waxed you anyway. If they shut down the engine and you nail them, you probably would've nailed them if they hadn't.
Fly and have fun. That's what matters.
-
Originally posted by Dago
Btw, 20,000 hr flown in an airliner is irrelevant to discussions about Warbird engine operations
I imagine that this is directed at Rude as he was the one to first bring it up.
BTW, WOW! I didn't realise Rude's experince with WW2 planes and engines was so extensive!
-
Originally posted by ccvi
What's this discussion about windmilling??
In the game the engine is usualy killed when flying 90 degree upwards before winging over, and then restarted immediately. The aircraft is at near 0 knots, and not even moving forward exactly.
Now... is THAT kind of restart possible or not? Go and ask him please.
Holly Skuzzies shaved sheeps! Holly JOC's vodka! Holly Hajo's 7th wife! I am not going to read this thread anymore, it is gonna hurt my brains! :)
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
I imagine that this is directed at Rude as he was the one to first bring it up.
BTW, WOW! I didn't realise Rude's experince with WW2 planes and engines was so extensive!
It's not my experience, but rather a close friend of mine.
This is funny, because when I first discovered that this engine shut off thingie was being employed as a tactic in AH, I spoke with my bud and he immediately told me I was wrong regarding this not being possible.
HE flies this sim as well, but I will wait for him to return and he can speak for himself.
Now I once was a pilot(before four kids and a wifey entered the pic):). Don't have alot of hours. Never flew a warbird, but have flown several varieties of piston aircraft....as long as the prop is spinnin, the ignition lit back up will fire the engine.
My friend owns a warbird trainer, be interesting to see what he has to say. I could have misunderstood him, but I don't believe so.
Common sense in these matters tends to prevail.
We will see eh?:)
-
i couldnt give a toss really i dont use the tactic
Hammy
-
Originally posted by Hammy
i couldnt give a toss really i dont use the tactic
Hammy
Okay, I think that means you agree with me that gunjams need to be modelled.
VOTE PROPOSITION 69 FOR GUNJAMS!!!![/SIZE]
Atleast that's a worthwhile thing to model... or "de-model".
-SW
-
Originally posted by Oedipus
And for the players who have asked about shutting down/running back up WWII aircraft engines, from people who've flown planes that had them, did you also ask them if they would do so during combat?
Oed
While you're at it, ask them if they would have flown into a 256X256 square mile area full of 300 bad guys, flying any variety of plane from '40 to '45, and do it with no wingmen or any kind of organized flight assignment. ;)
-
"If a player could put thier airplane into a deliberate spin and pull it out on que and use the new position against an opponant to his advantage"
Heh.... Is Zy spinning.....er, flying AH now?
-
Originally posted by Oedipus
(p.s. So Hblair? On the basis of that *what you just wrote) then no realism or higher expectations should be sought, eh?)
Not saying higher expectations should not be sought. Just not selective higher expectations. :D
-
What is your solution oedpius?
-
If I remember correctly,they shut the engines down on this puppy more than once to gain an advantage on the enemy...
"Beam me up Scotty,there is no intelligent life in this thread!'
-
I've had an engine stop while at the top of a roll in a swift do to haveing the fuel selector on wrong tank. I've switch mags to off momentarly durring run ups. In both cases once spark or fuel was restored the engine had instant power. If the props turning,fuel is there in the right mixture, and there is a spark, the engine will run. When turning off mags to an engine, the only thing you are doing is removing a spark, fuel is still flowing, the air fuel mixture is being compresed and exausted. The engine is still turning at the same rpm, assuming you havn't feathered the props. When spark is reaplied the engine will be producing power instantly.
As for pilots not doing it very often, the resone they didn't is because there are almost always much better options for defense tatics, not because it wouldn't do what it would in AH.
In fact there are almost always better options than choping throttle in engagments. And very few pilots would pull back on throttle unless they were in a over speed situation. So should we now force people when slow to never pull back on the throttle because we think it's to gammy?
Bob shaw once used the line about fighting, if your not cheating your not fighting. The evening before a marchetti fight I was buying my opponet B52's, while im drinking sharps. Bob said the next day, thats the first 12 hour lead turn he has seen. Was I cheating or "Gamming" by giving this guy a hangover the next morning? Or was I using every method I could think of to beet him?
Now this is not to be confused with hacking, or breaking the rules. But if you realy want to portray the attitude of a fighter pilot. The rule is never give the sucker an even break. It refers to stuff like Chuck yeager modifying his f86 engine when fighting a budy of his in an f86. He wanted every advantage he could get.
So now put yourself in a real war situation with some one on your but where you have run out of options and can't think of any thing else to do.
If you thought shutting you engine off would get you out of the fix would you?
I can just see a pilot falling for an engine shut off, doing an over shoot and be forced to dissengage. When he is at his debrief he tells his commander. "I would have killed that guy, except he cheated and turned off his engine". What do you think his commander would say?
Just because somthing was not the norm in WWII, dosn't meen it wasn't tried, or couldn't be done.
HiTech
-
Great post HT. You have inspired me to remap "E" to my stick! ;)
-
I think many of these guys who are sooo adamently opposed to the engine cut thingy are just scared of the unknown. Has anyone proved that it gives you a huge advantage? no. People just assume it does and "It must stop!" Heh. Peoples true colors come out that's for sure. ;)
-
Realism must be tempered with gameplay concessions.
As for any plane with a single 30 or a 50 or two 50s for a rear gunner, I would say sure enable them with tires on the runway (besides. them little guns dont have much impact) but once you get up to a multi slaved gun position bomber like a B17 Id have to say no way in hell. So what does HTC do?
They disable ALL gunners positions OTG. I agee. Gameplay concession.
I must add that I have recently seen a B17 firing while still on the ground but moving. Theres something to watch out for.
As for the engine thing. I have some practice dueling film. I am studying it but I must say the guy was kicking my bellybutton in a rather dominating way -same plane -same loadout. Ive been around long enough to know that I was getting trumped in a situation where I should have had at least some degree of success 2 out of 5? maybe 3 out of 9? It was like 0-10. Only difference between us was the other guy was constantly turning the engine on/off throughout the ACM and I wasnt. Im not against doing this engine thing. I cant find anything unbelievable about it, yet. And if HTC allows it then it is valid IMO.
-
I still don't agree.
I also think that anyone who uses this tactic should be barred from making ANY comments on the AH flight model from now on.
Hitech's comments alone seem to promote anything that is out of the norm to win. Trying to enhance reality doesn't seem to be HTs objective any more.
So, If the N1K can hang on it's prop with no torque effect, then I guess it's because the pilot installed an opposing torque converter or some other modification to give him that ability.
If the P38s dive flaps don't work, it's because some other guy came and sabataged them in the hanger.
LW cannons not firing the way they should? Must have been the allies who came and screwed with them.
GV armor is not strong enough? The other guy must be using more powerful ammo.
Auto-retracting flaps... pilot modification obviously
---
So when can I expect to have a working K14 gunsight in my Mustang then, Hitech? It wold give me an advantage that my plane of choice actualy had. Or is it never going to be implemented because then there would be too many whines from the people who fly planes that didn't have computating gunsights?
-
I think turning the engine off just gives an usable advantage because the angular momentum (of prop and rotating engine parts) is overmodeled. If it was lower, the effect of turning off the engine would be much less.
hitech, how big is the rotational inertia of the rotating parts on e.g. the 109g10? If there are parts rotating at different than indicated rpm, please also post their inertia and relative rpm proportion.
I just would like to get a better imagination of how big that rotating thing in front of the plane is.
-
Its the old sim/game ying/yang thing you got going there!
Welp, you aint gonna get much more realism than you already have. Truth hurts.
I know........I gave up on asking for realism about the time the big crowd moved in. Most of the folks now in the game want just that, a game. A fun game.
HTC has known from the very beginning that in order to attract the big crowds (and the associated financial success the big crowd brings in) they would need to have a generally believable but very fun game, not a difficult challenging sim. Sure, have some aspects more difficult and challenging, and capable of being disabled, but By-God, its got to be fun and you know what? They are dead on right!
Get over it and just accept what you have. I did, and I can honestly say its alright to play the game. Hell, its still fun.
Someday my sim will come, in some respects it already has and a new add-on might just make it tops, but until then I just have fun dorking about the arenas, paying my little fee to the fortune.
-
Of course you are right Yeager.
It's better just to let go and deal with it I guess.
-
Getting my arse kicked by pilots I never heard of in duels is the best thing that ever happened to me. Ya see, it either challenges you to become more diverse and better or you can just blame it all on some "exploitation of the game". Thataway you can steenk and have a perfectly logical excuse for it! ;)
-
Originally posted by hblair
Getting my arse kicked by pilots I never heard of in duels is the best thing that ever happened to me. Ya see, it either challenges you to become more diverse and better or you can just blame it all on some "exploitation of the game". Thataway you can steenk and have a perfectly logical excuse for it! ;)
It's fugging lame.
Getting killed in a 1-v-1 against a guy using this tactic is the same as getting your bellybutton kicked in Tekken. You loose, not becuase the guy is a better fighter than you, but becuase he knew the 'double-fisted-backwards-catapult-flip' key press combination.
When I went to Air Combat USA one of the first things the pilot told me was to leave the engine at full power once we got into the fight. When I started to loose the turn on the other guy in one of the fights, he didn't say "hey let's toggle the magnetos on and off so we can get position"
I would like to be able to get into a fight with another P-51 and know that the only thing the guy can do to beat me is use better maneuvers and manage his E better, not because he was toggling his engine on and off the whole fight so he could get a turn advantage.
---
BTW, I still challenge someone to go out in a real aircraft and try doing engine shutdowns and restarts to full power while they are maneuvering in high G turns.
Or better yet, any of you that have access to real WWII birds...
Ask the owner if he would mind you chunking his engine from WEP to shutdown and then back to WEP again. Ask him if you can do it 3 or 4 times while pulling 4G+ at 1000 feet. I am sure if the engine would do this without issue, the owner of said aircraft would give you his full blessing. Hell, he'd probably ride shotgun with you while you did it :rolleyes:
-
Stupid question from a know nothing lame stick newb...
Has anyone done the following test yet? Let a plane reach max speed in level flight at 5K, chop the THROTTLE back all the way and go into a vertical climb, note the highest altitude reached. Now repeat the test but cut the engine instead of throttling back.
What's the result?
(I'm at work at the moment or would try this.)
-
Ask the owner if he would mind you chunking his engine from WEP to shutdown and then back to WEP again. Ask him if you can do it 3 or 4 times while pulling 4G+ at 1000 feet. I am sure if the engine would do this without issue, the owner of said aircraft would give you his full blessing. Hell, he'd probably ride shotgun with you while you did it
You seem to be missing a very obvious differance. WWII combat aircraft were not privately owned and paid for, abusing them to stay alive when someone was trying to kill you would be plenty acceptable.
In one of the remaining warbirds of today, nobody heaps abuse on them as they are almost without exception owned and supported by private individuals, at great personal expense. You are trying to compare two entirely differant operational situations that really have no common ground except an aircraft is involved.
In combat, a Merlin engine certainly wasnt expected to last more than 250 hrs.
dago
-
I really dont see what the big fuss is about. I dont use this technique, but i do chop throttle If I am going to overshoot especially against buffs.
What i dont get is going historical enough in some aspects and not in another.
If an aircraft engine suddenly cuts off in Negative G dives, ie Spitfire Mk I. Why dont we have other major flaws other aircraft had?
I think we need more realistic engine controls. And Gun jams.
Maybe for the Mission Arena ;) what do you think HT?
-
I think the (way) earlier comment about being able to take off your head and set it on the headrest looking backwards being a measure for gaminess is a good one.
Far more gamey than being able to chop and restart an engine is the ability for your advesary to fix their view at 6:00 and watch you close on them, being able to react at the exact opportune moment. Let's whine about that for a while.
It's almost as unrealistic as engine on-off, yet rather than being a rare practice in AH it's SOP.
I'm actually amazed at the ammount of bandwidth this engine on-off issue has gotten given it's relative insignificance.
Just enjoy the game, for heavens sake!
-
Originally posted by Midnight
It's fugging lame.
When I went to Air Combat USA one of the first things the pilot told me was to leave the engine at full power once we got into the fight. When I started to loose the turn on the other guy in one of the fights, he didn't say "hey let's toggle the magnetos on and off so we can get position"
Believe it or not there Major, but not all ACM consists of making long sweeping E conserving turns at 20,000ft. There are things like rolling scissors where the whole freekin point is to get slower than the other guy! so you can push him out front (for gun solution), when you're 50 ft above the trees flying 130 mph and trying to get the other guy in front of you, things like dumping the flaps, throttling back, killing the engine momentarily, etc, etc, may or may not help in that situation. Of course you wouldn't know that because it's foreign to you.
You don't what you're talking about dude. But I'm sure you'd like to think you do.
-
Originally posted by hblair
Getting my arse kicked by pilots I never heard of in duels is the best thing that ever happened to me. Ya see, it either challenges you to become more diverse and better or you can just blame it all on some "exploitation of the game". Thataway you can steenk and have a perfectly logical excuse for it! ;)
HB......
If we lose the duel tonight, you had better believe I'll come up with one whopper of an excuse, because there is no way you will beat the 13th TAS straight up!
:)
-
Where do you come up with that crap?
I've been in plenty of low slow fights in my AH game playing days.
I know how to scissor and all the other moves too.
The point is, engine toggle is too gamey.
Matter of fact, I was in a scissor with another P-51 a couple nights ago. He started toggling the engine, and we were so close I could hear him doing it. I wasn't resorting to that tactic, so I extended out of the turn the next time I heard his engine shutdown.
I had the advantage at the start of the scissor, but couldn't hold it as long as he was gaming his engine. He died anyway, but it was lame even still.
---
screw it anyway. I am obviously not swaying public opinion nor that of the game develpoment department (Hitech). So I will just accept it and fly around the situation.
-
Whatever midnight. Engine toggle is gamey but nothing else is.
Lookin forward to it Rude. :) Sometimes losing is the best medicine. I'm not above it. But when you're humble then rip the enemy a new one, you come out smelling like roses. :)
-
Originally posted by hblair
Believe it or not there Major, but not all ACM consists of making long sweeping E conserving turns at 20,000ft. There are things like rolling scissors where the whole freekin point is to get slower than the other guy! so you can push him out front (for gun solution), when you're 50 ft above the trees flying 130 mph and trying to get the other guy in front of you, things like dumping the flaps, throttling back, killing the engine momentarily, etc, etc, may or may not help in that situation. Of course you wouldn't know that because it's foreign to you.
You don't what you're talking about dude. But I'm sure you'd like to think you do.
This happened last night. I grabbed an SBD from a carrier and headed for a base we were trying to take. I loaded a 1,000 pounder, and climbed out to 10k. Arriving over the field I find about 15 enemy fighters milling around on the deck chasing a few of our's. So, I figured, "what the heck," and roll in the VH. My bomb drops the target and I zoom back up to 7k and start thinking about heading back when I spot a P-40E about 3k below me heading away from the field. I maneuver for position, but the P-40 driver sees me and decides to climb up and engage. Bad decision. Having killed any E he had, the Dauntless is all over him like a bad odor. He trys to run, but I have plenty of speed. In desperation, he begins to scissor. Second bad decision. I simply pull off some power and coast along, snapshooting him every time he crosses in front of me. Down to about 200 ft, trailing coolant and missing some vital aerodynamic surfaces, he cuts his engine. I could hear it. Well, I pull off the throttle and mapped to my throttle are the dive flaps, so I pop them too. If you have flown the SBD, you will know that it does not retain energy worth a fart. Therefore, chopping power slows you rapidly. Popping the dive flaps at the same time nearly stops you dead.
So, here we are a 80 mph. I have full control down to about 60 mph, but the P-40 is doomed. A wing drops and in he goes. Kaboom!
I have no idea what this guy was thinking. Trying to induce an overshoot of a plane that flies slower than a seagull is a remarkably silly notion. Would have worked against an La-7 tho...Lol
My regards,
Widewing
-
Originally posted by Midnight
"Hitech's comments alone seem to promote anything that is out of the norm to win."
YEah BabY!!!:p
-
if u fly your plane realistically, u gain respect, if u fly like a gamer (which seems to be the worst of all AH insults) then that is the tag u earn.
Besides, several weeks ago my instructor killed my engine using the mixture, instant restart was regained for the windmilling prop when the mixture was enrichened
- maybe HTC should add a mixture control, if people really want to resort to engine cutting in knife fights
cheers
-
Originally posted by Midnight
So when can I expect to have a working K14 gunsight in my Mustang then, Hitech? It wold give me an advantage that my plane of choice actualy had. Or is it never going to be implemented because then there would be too many whines from the people who fly planes that didn't have computating gunsights?
You must be kidding. Who need computating gunsight in AH, when ranges to planes are provided by icons?
-
B dont need more complications inflight!
-
Originally posted by HFMudd
Stupid question from a know nothing lame stick newb...
Has anyone done the following test yet? Let a plane reach max speed in level flight at 5K, chop the THROTTLE back all the way and go into a vertical climb, note the highest altitude reached. Now repeat the test but cut the engine instead of throttling back.
What's the result?
(I'm at work at the moment or would try this.)
Again, since my earlier looks at this are ignored because people are sure someone is using some quirk to beat them because it's simply not possible they just got beat...
I took a p51-d at 7500 feet to 300 IAS. To avoid variations because you're never going to get the exact vertical climb trying to repeat it manually, I set climb speed to 100 and turned on autoclimb.
With throttle chopped I reached 9570.
With engine turned off I reached 9650.
You guys need to find a new excuse, this one doesn't work.
-
several weeks ago my instructor killed my engine using the mixture, instant restart was regained for the windmilling prop when the mixture was enrichened
Time to maybe consider finding a new Instructor. A simulated engine out can be accomplished with the throttle avoiding any unnecessary risk.
dago
-
Originally posted by Dago
Time to maybe consider finding a new Instructor. A simulated engine out can be accomplished with the throttle avoiding any unnecessary risk.
dago
Dago,
There is a definate difference in glide between an idling engine and a dead engine. I found out when I had to do a deadstick landing in my bird and I do not mean online either. All flying is risk, it's better to be prepared than clueless about gliding in a real plane.
-
A
-
Originally posted by Midnight
Getting killed in a 1-v-1 against a guy using this tactic is the same as getting your bellybutton kicked in Tekken. You loose, not becuase the guy is a better fighter than you, but becuase he knew the 'double-fisted-backwards-catapult-flip' key press combination.
Yup, but in this case it's just....E....EE
Having instant full power when you hit the E key twice may be realistic but the associated explosion of unburnt fuel within the exhaust manafold and it's possible adverse effects being not modeled make this ploy usefull and effective without any possible negative ramifications for the gamerz.
-
>>>>At 11.30hrs on 24th May 1944, 2nd Lt John E Austin 0-742929 of the Burtonwood Maintenance Division made a normal take off from Burtonwood in P-38 43-28738 for a local test flight. <<<<
pilot : 'ah sir , i ,ah ,need a new p38
GL : what happened to your old p38?
pilot : ah sir , a mechanic named Lt Austin took it up for a test flight and crashed it.