Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: GRUNHERZ on September 28, 2001, 11:32:00 PM
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Anyone know?
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one oh nine?
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Dont know for sure but it must be either the 109 or spitfire assumming you only which plane and not which plane/model.
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P51, but if you include ground kills, P47. That's from memory and I could be mistaken.
You got some kind of WWII triva book?
:cool:
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Air to air kills.
This isnt a triva thing really, Im just not sure which one it is.
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I would guess the Bf109.
The Spitfire can't compete. It was never used against hordes of semi trained pilots like the Bf109 was on the eastern front.
P-51 and P-47 have the same problem the Spitfire does.
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I reckon the 109, for the reasons Karnak gave.
Those Russian I-planes were in plentiful supply early on.
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has to be the 109.
they built 35,000 of the damn things and used them from the 1937 spanish civil war onwards and on every front the germans fought right up till the end of the war in europe.
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Bf 109 - for sure
andthebest pilot was Erich Hartmann with he`s 352 confirmed kills.
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One-OH-Nine.... :D
www.historynet.com/AviationHistory/articles/1999/0599_text.htm (http://www.historynet.com/AviationHistory/articles/1999/0599_text.htm)
"Although Allied bombing made it difficult to calculate an exact figure, it has been estimated that as many as 33,000 Me-109s of all models were built, making it second only to the Soviet Ilyushin Il-2 Shturmovik as the most mass-produced warplane in history. Moreover, the ubiquitous Me-109 was credited with shooting down more enemy aircraft and producing more aces than any single fighter in the annals of aerial warfare. Although not the most aesthetically pleasing airplane ever built, the Messerschmitt earned its place among the aviation classics--and, if not affection, at least respect. "
NeunZ...... :p
[ 09-29-2001: Message edited by: NineZ ]
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Some plane had to shoot em all down :)
P-51
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Roger that, Boozer. :D
Everything moves on and even the German pilots that swore by the 109 realized it was being out paced by superior Allied aircraft. Of course the FW190D and the ME262 were also superior aircraft. If the Luftwaffe would have focused on the 262 as a fighter a wee bit sooner, we would have had our hands full.
I would say that it was mainly a matter of numbers. Men, Equipment, Fuel, etc...
Thank goodness, because they had some really good pilots. hehee :D
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Has to be the 109.
Of course the 109 also wins the distinction of being the fighter that was most frequently shot down...
Hooligan
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No it doesn't.
That would belong to the Il-2, I-16.
Only 1 out of every 5 Il-2's survived the war. And I-16's were frequently shot down 3 or 4 times in a row and still patched up and reflown. Niether was retired but rather flown until they crashed or were shot down. The 109's took losses, but each new generation saw the older ones scrapped and replaced. Thus statistacilly it probably lost nowhere near as many planes.
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This is damn near a trick question. I hear some of you guys saying the P-51. Yes, it is a good fighter, but it only served in the tail end of the war so it didn't get as much combat as other planes.
In terms of the most enemy planes shot down by one single aircraft design, that honor is bestowed upon the B-17 bomber.
For the most fighter vs fighter kills, that is the Me109.
For the highest kill to death ratio, that is the Corsair.
[ 09-29-2001: Message edited by: LtHans ]
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Originally posted by Asmodan:
Bf 109 - for sure
andthebest pilot was Erich Hartmann with he`s 352 confirmed kills.
Allow me to disagree, Asmo. The best fighter pilot of the 109 (and possibly the best air gunner of the war) was Jochen Marseille :)
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LtHans,
No, the B-17 did not.
If B-17 gunner's claims were accurate it would be true, but in fact they massively overclaimed kills, 10 or 20 claims for every real kill, IIRC.
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also Karnak I've read where different gunners claimed the same kill.
Is that correct or did the kill goto the Bomber itself?
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ubb bug...
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P-51 Mustang.
It fought against the Japanese, too. I bet the F4U and P-38 competed with it in the Pacific, but overall I think the Mustang comes out ahead (even against the luftwobble plane). You can't forget, it fought in Africa (A-36 and P51 early variants), China, Europe, the Pacific, Korea, and South America later.
:cool:
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LtHans:
I have read accounts of a B17s flight gunners claims for a single raid over France that exceeded the TOTAL numbers of LW fighters based in the region at the time. Yes thats right the gunners claimed to have shot down more LW fighters in one single raid than existed in the area. IIRC this was from the two volume JG26 combat diary, in which the author checked allied/axis claims throughout the whole war day by day.
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During one raid on Lille in Oct 42, B-17 gunners claimed 56 destroyed, 26 probables, 20 damaged. Post war analysis of German fighter losses indicates probably 1 Luftwaffe fighter lost.
On the first Schweinfurt raid, US bomber gunners claimed 148 enemy fighters shot down, 18 probably shot down. The escort fighters claimed claimed 19 kills. Actual German losses 25. The fighter kill claims were on average twice real kills, so around 10 fighters shot down by the escorts, 15 by the bombers.
These are just a couple of examples, but it's easy to see why bomber claims were so inflated. Any fighter attacking a bombing formation is going to have many guns shooting at him at the same time. If the fighter is destroyed, all those gunners will file a kill claim.
I've seen the figure of around 1000 fighters as an estimate of the numbers shot down by USAAF heavy bombers over Europe, which includes the B24 as well. To put that in context, That's about the same number the 109 or Hurricane claimed in the BoB alone.
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P51, Oh man. You can add up the total kills from maybe a couple of German Aces and it would most likely total more kills then the mustang brought down during the whole war.
:D
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someone dig up the kills of the P-38 and the kills of the P-51 please.
Would be interesting!
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NineZ needs a nap. :D
:cool:
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Was just fanning the flames a bit, and your right, I need a nap. hehee
I dont have the foggiest how many kills the mustang racked up. :D
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Originally posted by LtHans:
For the highest kill to death ratio, that is the Corsair.
[ 09-29-2001: Message edited by: LtHans ]
Im Curious on this one. The F6F Hellcat had a 19:1 K/D. What was the F4Us? I was under the impression the Hellcats was top. Im relying on a Hellcat History Video tape for the info, but maybe its wrong.
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Highest K to D ratio ever....
F-15 Eagle, baby.
100:0
:D
[ 09-30-2001: Message edited by: Rebel ]
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There were less P38's built then either the P47 and P51, however the P38 had more kills on japanese aircraft then either of these two fighters and more then any of the other fighters that served in the PAC. The P38 kicked bellybutton bigtime in RL.
Most kills, have to go for 109 too:
Over 21,000 109G submarks were built + all the other marks prior to the G model, which would easily put this fighter in the 30000+ catagory and as mentioned the 109 was a superlative fighter used in all theatres in WW2 and also saw combat prior to WW2. German fighter aces easily eclipsed the British, Japanese and American aces in regards to kill tally's and unlike the Allies, the Germans got to literally vulch an enemy fielding initally antiquated and and inferior aircraft flown by inferior pilots with outdated inferior tactics AKA the Russians.
:D
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Howabout the highest scoring individual plane.. not just model or type???
FAF Bf109G-2 marked MT-201 was flown by three different aces, and scored 32 1/2 victories.
Any higher scores for one plane?
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One of Marsaille's 109F4s he had 17 kills in one day in that one.
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Grimm, I seem to recall that F6F K :D was 9:1, not 19:1. F4F was 7:1. Don't remember for F4U, but seem to remember it being higher than either Kitty (12:1?).
My bet would still be the 109 for greatest number of kills by an aircraft series. By the time the P51 came into service in number, it was fairly late in the war. I just don't see how it could have made up time against the Bf109.
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Well, I got off my Butt and did a little research. I Checked many F6F and F4U websites and got some infomation...
The First Quote comes from National Air and Space Website
"During the war pilots flying Hellcats destroyed over 5,100 enemy aircraft, compared with 270 Hellcats lost in combat-a ratio of 19:1."
"the Hellcat was a potent force against the Japanese, and was credited with over three-quarters of the US Navy's air-to-air kills in the war."
"The F6F Hellcat had the highest Kill/Loss ratio of any American fighter plane in Army, Navy, Marine or Air Force service during WWII."
On the F4U Corsair I found this..
"By the end of hostilities in the Pacific War it had established an 11:1 "kill" ratio against Japanese aircraft. "
"Not surprisingly the F4U generated a massive (11:1) kill ratio rivaled only by it's R2800 cousin the F6F."
And Lastly just a thing on the Corsairs nicknames..
" the F4U had many nicknames: "Hose Nose", "Bent Wing Bird", "Hog" and "Ensign Eliminator", Japanese ground troops called it "Whistling Death".
Note the Lack of CHOG.. ;)
So in Fairness, Lets give the Hellcat proper credit. The Corsair's numbers are impressive, but the Hellcat gets the high K/D credit.
:D
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Well in WW2 the pitifully few 200 F4U1C 20mm armed F4U were completly irrelevant and more or less useless planes. toejam apparently USN navy pilots actually prefered the .50cal armament. In AH this clearly wasnt the case before the perk system. Thats why AH uses the term CHOG and noboy else does.
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correct k/d ratio for F6F is 19-1...the hog was 11-1....p38 produced the most aces of any us plane ...I think.
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In the hands of the Finnish Air Force, the Brewster Model B-239 achieved an air-to-air kill:death ratio of 32:1 during over 3 years of continuous fighting against a numerically superior enemy. If you count the Brewsters shot down by AAA, the ratio is 26:1.
No other aircraft in the world, that had significant combat use, can match these numbers.
More info here: http://www.hkkk.fi/~yrjola/war/faf/brewster.html (http://www.hkkk.fi/~yrjola/war/faf/brewster.html) http://www.hkkk.fi/~yrjola/war/faf/brewkills.html (http://www.hkkk.fi/~yrjola/war/faf/brewkills.html) http://www.danford.net/buff.htm (http://www.danford.net/buff.htm)
Originally posted by BlauK:
Howabout the highest scoring individual plane.. not just model or type???
FAF Bf109G-2 marked MT-201 was flown by three different aces, and scored 32 1/2 victories.
Any higher scores for one plane?
BK, direct quote from My's website: "41 aerial victories were achieved with BW-393, 7 of them by Capt Luukkanen and 26 by Lt Hans Wind." Looks like the BW scores well in this category too? ;)
Camo
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Unfortunatly Camo- you have to include ALL the marks of brewster into the discussion. After you do that the ones slaughtered on the Pacific front reduce that k/d ratio into decimals :)
BTW Grimm- those look like the unadjusted claims. Somewhere around are the "adjusted" ones they did after the war looking at known Japanese losses. The F4F sufferred the most from these- I think they lost almost 1/2 their claims from this. F4U hurt too- some F4U squadrons claimed more kills than Japanese records showed planes in the area.
Still both ended the war with impressive tallies.
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One plane/pilot combo- would be Johhnie Johnson. His spit had something silly like 26 kills. Probably would have been higher too except he had a non-detonating 20mm round lodge in the wing-root and since the Mk XIV was current they just replaced his plane.
Did any Luftwaffe Aces stay in one plane long enough to go higher?
For that matter- my guess (just a guess!) is that on the Allied side the F4F or the P-40 scored the most kills. The Mustang just couldn't have made up the ground those two had. Especially since planes like the P-40 were claiming kills from the beginning to the end of the war.
:)
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Originally posted by Sorrow[S=A]:
Unfortunatly Camo- you have to include ALL the marks of brewster into the discussion.
No I don't. :p
The ones slaughtered in the Pacific were not Brewster model 239s. ;)
Camo
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A link to USN fighters...
http://www.westnet.com/~ssherman/air_wins.html (http://www.westnet.com/~ssherman/air_wins.html)
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from that site under "sources" link-
Most important to realize, that all air forces from all countries in all theatres, over-counted their kills. Post-war researchers have compared total American claims to total losses recorded by the Japanese, and determined that we over-claimed by about 50 to 100 percent. For every 100 planes the Japanese records showed as destroyed, it seems the Americans counted about 150 to 200. This is a very approximate statistic, and the Japanese over-count of their victories is believed to be even worse. On an individual basis, there's no way to account for it (revise each pilot's claim by some arbitrary percentage?), but in total, it's important to keep in mind. As one source noted, all victory claims were made in good faith under extremely stressful conditions.
IIRC there IS a list somewhere showing a better view of the kills these planes scored in the Pac. Surely someone must be able to find it.
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The overclaims of kills by RAF and USAAF were well know bye the air commands of both air forces.
The reason behind all this was that the pilots should be confidend of want they did to the enemy. And so up to date the kill numbers stand as at the end of WW2.
On the other side the german also overclaimed sometimes, but not as high as the allieds. And to actually get from a claim to a real kill was very hard in the LW.
Some GE aces can be cosidered to have higher kill numbers than recorded. Especially in the time after D-Day, to get a kill notified, was hard if the enemy plane crashed behind the nme front.
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Naudet,
That's a joke.
Look at the Battle of Britain.
The Germans overclaimed by more than 3 to 1, close to 4 to 1.
The Brits overclaimed by a bit over 2 to 1.
Whenever your fighting over enemy held ground, or water, kills are highly exagerated.
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Karnak, i see i expressed it wrong.
The LW overclaimed for sure, but to get a kill from a claim was a different thing within the LW than within the RAF/USAAF.
I think in the Allied airforce a claim was much easier to "convert" to a kill than in LW.
And from what i read in this thread, they are talking about kill numbers not claims.
And so for example we get the following (numbers just examples):
Allied claims 4000
Allied confirmed kills 3000
Actual kills 2000
LW claims 4000
LW confirmed kills 2500
Actuall kills 2000
hope this shows what i mean
[ 10-02-2001: Message edited by: Naudet ]
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Allow me to disagree, Asmo. The best fighter pilot of the 109 (and possibly the best air gunner of the war) was Jochen Marseille
hmmm i know that the best pilot of the ww2 was Errich Hartman
I`m new here so i don`t want to argue whit any one but the history is the history so we just can`t say that it was difrent
btw Hi all
:confused: ;)
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Total kill numbers for the PAC theater Army and Navy types.
F6F=5156 306 aces
F4U=2140 93 aces
P-38 1,700 90 aces
F4F 1,006 58 aces
P-40 706 27 aces
P-47 697 32 aces
P-51 296 5 aces
P-39 243 1 ace
P-61 63 1 ace
From U.S. Navy Fighters of WW2 by Tillman and Lawson.
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Kill claims are most accurate when the fighting is over friendly territory, because claims can be checked against ground observers statements, wreckage etc.
So for example, during the BoB, the Luftwaffe awarded 3500 kills, whilst shooting down approx 1000 aircraft. The RAF awarded 2500 kills, whilst shooting down 1700 aircraft.
For much of the war, the Luftwaffe was fighting over friendly territory, so their figures should be, and were, more accurate than their opponents.
However, it's interesting to look at many of the top scoring German aces, and the number of kills they scored away from the possibility of cast iron confirmation.
The Luftwaffe required verification of all kills, but where there was no chance of ground observers or wreckage, the word of the claimaints wingman or other squadron member was accepted. Does anyone really believe that ensures accuracy? It certainly didn't during the Battle of Britain.
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Originally posted by MEDAL303:
hmmm i know that the best pilot of the ww2 was Errich Hartman
I`m new here so i don`t want to argue whit any one but the history is the history so we just can`t say that it was difrent
History says that Hartmann was the highest scoring ace ever. That doesnt mean he was the BEST ACE ever. I think that either Molders or Galland would have got way higher tallies had they kept on flying (and they were best pilots, too).
But Marseille was the best 109 fighter pilot IMHO; and the best fighter gunner of the war,period.
And he was not even killed by enemy fire, but because a stupid accident (his 109G2's engine stopped and he died while bailing out). He was unlucky where Hartmann was terribly lucky (ever read that story of Hartmann escaping after being captured by the russians?...one dies while bailing from a plane wich engine seizes alone, the other escapes death or capture by a hair several times...such are the things of the war)
[ 10-02-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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Marsaille had 158 kills before Hartmann even started combat flying. Marsaille was getting often 30 or more kills a month in parts of 1942. Marsaille averaged 15 bullets and 20mm shells per kill, the groundcrew would count yes. He got 17 kills in one day.
Who is better? I donno. Hartmann is the best in total kills by a wide margin, the next best Gerd Barkhorn is at 301 kills 51 behind hartmann. But people like Nowotny and Rall had 200 or more kills much earlier than Hartman, but were prevented from scoring more due to injury or political/propaganda reasons. For example Rall was inactive for some 9 months at one period.
Anyway Hartmann scored the most kills and thats without a doubt. As he said he wasnt paid to play with the enemy planes, just to kill them. In the end, for many reasons, he was the best at that.
However Marsaille was best at shooting down the western allies. At 158 kills all in the west he is the undisputed leader. Another noteworthy pilot in the west is Josef "Pips" Priller with 101 kills all in the west. He was with JG26 from BOB till early 1945.
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Marsaille was not the best ace- he was the best liar.
No other Ace has had as many kills discounted from him with investigation. He often "shot down" more planes than the British had operational in a given month. He benifited from claiming them all over a desert where no-one could second guess him. Once he became famous no-one could discredit him either.
Sorrow
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the 109 was the most shot down fighter ac in WWII... more 109's were shot down than any other plane by far. It had less than a 1/1 kill death ratio even against polish bi-planes.
marsailles shot down many of his planes with only one or two thirty caliber rounds. it is said that most of his kills took even less.
The Hellcat does indeed have a better K/D than the the Corsair. Hard to say if it means much since the Corsair did have a harder time of it being outnumbered more often and mostly land based. Still... 11/1 aint bad.
lazs