Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Urchin on October 20, 2002, 09:08:51 PM
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I don't have much experience in the Tempest, but I fly the La7 occasionally. How is the Tempest better, other than the obvious fact that is has probably 3 times as much firepower?
Played around in the DA some with a few people, below 5k it seemed the La7 utterly dominated the Tempest. At the high alt field it was a much closer fight, ending with a slow speed scissors and a collision. I think the floor of the high alt field is 11k or so. So is the Tempest really only better if the La7 literally CAN'T get below 10k?
Who has experience flying both of them? I really am curious to see how they stack up against one another. I know the Tempest's strengths are its acceleration and top speed, with its manueverability being quite good but not really on par with a P51. The La7 has the same strengths. Will the Tempest really out-perform the La7 in a dogfight?
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No, I don't think it's better. It has other uses. The Tempest is a better handling Typhoon with a little more ammo and sans rockets. Under certain circumstances it can outrun an La7, but don't depend on it.
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Yes. and your just whining
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No offense Pongo, but I have not been able to establish that you have ANY experience in the Tempest at all. Did you respond just to take a cheap shot at Urchin?
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If this thread isn't just a troll:
The Tempest has vastly better firepower, as noted. In addition, the Tempest pilot has the option to increase his ammo load by firing only 2 guns at a time, the LA7 pilot cannot do this.
The TEMP is as fast or faster at all altitudes. It is substantially faster than the LA7 at 4-10K and above 15,000 feet. The Tempest is marginally faster even at sea level (about 5 MPH). A smart Tempest pilot would stay at 3500 or higher. In addition to sheer speed, the Tempest zooms better than the LA7 and holds "E" better overall.
Climbrate is about even at sea level. The Tempest gains signifigant climb superiority above 3000 feet.
Turning ability for the two planes is similar; however the Tempest doesn't "fight" the pilot as much in slow turns as the LA7 does.
Neither plane has great range but the Tempest has options for droptanks...the LA7 has no such option. The Tempest also has a decent bombload, while the LA7 is useless for A2G. In my experience the Tempest is also noticably tougher than the LA7.
Overall, I am hard pressed to think of a way in which the Tempest does NOT outperform the LA7.
J_A_B
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Jab, that is the kind of thing I was looking for.
Does the Tempest out accelerate the La7 too? I know it is a little bit faster on the deck, but acceleration is what would make the difference in a close fight (well, if the Tempest decided to leave anyway).
I'm not sure the Tempest has a significant climbing advantage on the deck. I was playing around with Nimitz earlier tonight, it seemed as though the Tempest didn't really start pulling away until about 5k.
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As noted above, on the deck the TEMP and LA7 are about even in speed and climbrate. Above 3000 feet the TEMP is definately superior in both attributes.
Acceleration is related to climb rate and is also affected by speed. At sea level I'd expect them to be about equal with the Tempest gaining the advantage above 3000 feet or so. Under 2000 feet I'd rate these fighters as equals, with E state and pilot skill being the deciding factor.
Altitude is VERY important for the Tempest with regards to speed. In general: Below 3500 feet, and from 9-14K the Tempest is only marginally faster than the LA7. Do not try to run at these altitudes.
I think of the LA7 in Aces High almost as if it's a dedicated "perk killer" plane. It has a small ammo load, pitifully short range, virtually no A2G capability and loses its advantages over 15000 feet.....but it has the sheer performance to meet the perk fighters on nearly equal footing and is probably the best ride for chasing down the perk fighters. Heck, the LA7 probably WOULD be perked if the MA didn't have the fuel multiplier.
If I was flying a Tempest (or any perk fighter), I'd make it a priority to kill LA7's first.
J_A_B
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I just make it my priority to leave if there is an La-7 anywhere in the area. The tactics needed to kill an La-7 leave you utterly vulnerable to every Spit, N1K2 or 109 in the area.
I will not engage an La-7 below 15,000ft in any perk plane, save the Me262.
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in the real world the tempest is better:D
please clip my spit wings
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The AH Tempest "out turns" the AH La-7, much in the simular way the AH Typhoon "out turns" the AH Bf109G-2(surprising, ain't it? :eek: ).
Not many people have a chance to really check this aspect of the Tempest in the MA since the Tempest is rarely used in the first place, and it would be suicidal to stay with the enemy and turn with him in a 70 point plane. However, in the H2H there are a lot of geeks in free Tempests, and you have a lot of chance to try and pitch it against various planes.
Of course, this would greatly rely on how you define "out turning". I never bothered to really film a typical La-7 vs Tempy H2H fight so I am not sure, however, my impression is that it isn't really necessarily "out turning" in radius. However, the frickin' raw power of the plane makes various management of the turn circle much easier for the Tempy.
In the long run, the Tempies grab distinct chances for lobbing lead shots against the La-7. In a flat circle turn contest, both very low in E and bellies scratching the ground, I have seen many times the Tempest finally gaining on the La-7's 6'Oc and blasting it away to kingdom come. As I have noted, the same thing happens when a Bf109G-2 meets a Typhoon.
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This brings up a frickin' question. Typhoons and Tempies are known to be fast. No problem with that. But how was their maneuverability? If the base maneuverability sucks in the first place such delicate issues such as the differences of raw engine power and acceleration won't be good enough to allow the Tempy to gain on a La-7 in a turn contest.
In short, Typhoons and Tempies turn about as well as the La-7. The La-7 is not an exceptional turner. At high speed the La-7 has somewhat an advantage in turning, but in low speeds the Tempies seem to turn better.
So, how did those Tempies and Typhies maneuver in real life? I don't recall any sort of comparison between the contemporary fighters with those two aircraft. All I ever heard was the "Typhoon sucked, and the Tempest was fast".
I can't even imagine how it would pit when a turn contest would happen against a 190 or a 109. The classic EAW was pretty much porked in FM, very generous towards RAF planes(and stingy against USAAF and LW planes), but the Tempies and Typhies depicted in that game lacked horribly in any sort of maneuvering requiring the elevators.
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Can anyone clarify me on this ? :confused:
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In my experience the Tempest is also noticably tougher than the LA7.
I agree on everything you say but that, LA7 can, in my experience take alot more punishment, mu experience though.
As for acceleration, Tempest accelerates slightly faster but not very much. (can't remember exact times but I did tests).
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Is the tempest 70perk points better than the la7 ?
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sure it is perks arent money, what are ya saving umm for?
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@Kweassa
in a typhoon with speed you can out-turn a La7 in the first 180° after you're toast if you didn't landed any hispano on it during this part of the virage ...
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Straff, tiffie beats 190 A5 in low speed turns, 190 A5 beats LA7 in low speed turns. Tiffie beats both.
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Now I'm sure : I suck :p
In my experience I'll anyway get shot down before entering the final part of my turn so it don't matter :D
btw by slow speed you mean < 200 ?
I'm rarely at this speed except when landing
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Yes Straffo, I mean around 200 or lower :)
If the 190 A5 can get slow enough to extend flaps it will probarly win, unless tiffie can use flaps too.
In my experience, both while flying Tiffie and while flying 190 A5 (2 gunned) a Normally loaded (not fully fueld etc) Tiffie will, in a long fight outturn the 190 A5, it's not by much but it will in a sustained turn fight.
190 A5 will most likely outturn the LA7 but I am not sure, I've done a few times.
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I'm rarely at this speed except when landing
Shows you're smart, not suicidal like I am.
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It just mean that I get shot down early :p
And I'm not smart or I won't take off from a vulched field in a 100% typhoon with 2 1000lbs (I hate flying naked:))
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AFDU Tactical trials - Tempest V (http://home.epix.net/~cap14//tempestafdu.html)
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I don't think the Typhoon and Tempest were unmanueverable in real life.
I seem to recall that the Typhoon was judged 'unworthy' as a fighter because it wasn't very good at high altitudes (like above 15k). I know at low level they were used to kill Fw190s that made low level raids on England.
The 190A5 can't out turn an La7 to the best of my knowledge. At least not in an extended tail-chase circle scenario.
Also, JAB, were you in a Tempest and you ran into a La7 at 9-14k.. you could probably climb away from it. And accelerate away to, I should think.
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Originally posted by Voss
No offense Pongo, but I have not been able to establish that you have ANY experience in the Tempest at all. Did you respond just to take a cheap shot at Urchin?
None taken voss.
did you see if I have any La7 experiance?
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Thx for the great info, mw!
Comparison with the Typhoon:
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Turning Circle
18. Very Similar. Any difference appears to be in favour of the Typhoon. This is too slight to alter combat tactics.
Rate of Roll
19. The Tempest has the better rate of roll at all speeds
Comparison with the Mustang III
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Turning Circle
28. The Tempest is not quite as good as the Mustang III.
Rate of Roll
29. The Tempest is not so good. This attribute may be improved upon later aircraft with re-designed ailerons
Comparison with the Spit14
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Turning Circle
35. The Spitfire XVI easily out-turns the Tempest.
Rate of Roll
36. The Spitfire XIV rolls faster at speeds below 300 mph, but definitely more slowly at speeds greater than 350.00 mph.
Comparison with the Fw190(BMW801D)
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Turning Circles
41. There is very little difference in turning circles between the two aircraft. If anything a very slight advantage lies with the Tempest.
Rate of Roll
42. The Tempest V cannot compare with the FW 190.
Comparison with the Me109G
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Turning Circle
47. The Tempest is slightly better, the Me.109G being embarrassed by its slots opening near the stall.
Rate of Roll
48. At normal speeds there is nothing in it, but at speeds over 350 mph the Tempest could get away from the Me.109G by making a quick change of bank and direction.
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* On no account must the trimming wheel be used to prevent it doing so, but only backward pressure on the stick. When the aircraft has reached a lower altitude where the speed of sound is greater, the aircraft will come out of the compressibility range and behave normally, being pulled out of the dive. Had the trimming wheel been used to prevent the nose dropping when in the compressibility range, there would have been a very sudden nose-up tendency on coming out of the compressibility range. The result of a such a sudden change of trim is liable to cause structural failure.
* The ailerons have less tendency to stiffen up especially at speeds oover 350 mph, where it will out-roll any Spitfire.
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Quite interesting indeed! Which 190 and which 109G are they talking about here?? Mustang III turns better than the Tempest, and the Tempest turns better than the 109G?? In AH, no P-51 turns better than any of the 109s(the Mustang III is the P-51B, isn't it?)... Also the trim issue and the roll issue.. better try and test this myself.. :) I don't think Tempests out roll a Spitfire in AH.. either the Spitfire rolls much too fast, or the Tempest rolls too slow.. or maybe a little bit of both??
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Our P-51D will out-turn a 109G2 if there is a really good stick in the P-51. It seems to fight you a little more though. That could just be because I'm far more comfortable in the 109 than the P51.
You have to use flaps in the P-51, and get slow. Problem with that is that once you get to slow, the 109 can take the fight vertical and there is nothing you can do about it.
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well what about lavockin planes , :-)
how i systematicly precise i only living in france but born , rised , served CSSR more precisely Slovakia , vas profesional military ,like any generation before in my family, born at Ocova, who is some jump form 3 Duby , why that all ????????
becose the end of the ww2 slovak pepz fighted back on german forces , the soviet give some of LA5 FN to the SNP <==< the bunch of pepz vs germans > the fight last only fiew months but got some original fotos and stories, for exaple , some P 51 D with Yelow tail marking just decidet to beleve the slovak La5 FN with the SNP insignia is a german something , whateer la5 pilot tryed pony just run for the kill on him , the agresion finished with the pony badly shot up and have to ditched , sure, any who ever put hand on La 5 plane , sayed the plane was realy agile, but it have some problems , it do not liked to be stresed at high speeds at all , do no if is it only anecdotal but some of them precised , faster u fly more the plane refuse fly straith :D
another thing , the landing , many source mentioned that it was hazardous even more from the AVIA CS 199 landing < ex bf 109 >and for the last about copkit visibility no 1 ever coplained on the diference when they switched to CS199 ;)
sory no time for grama so take your time to get the clue :D :D
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Really didn't get all too much of what you said Minus :)
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well the story , becose the place 3 Duby is where the boroved La5 fn was so , the sources are from people who fly them ;)
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here:-
http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/tempest.htm
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Urchin, be warned: A Tempest that is heavy with fuel can be overtaken by an La7 with low fuel, it can be out zoomed, and it can be out turned. Nothing is for certain in the MA.
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lemme tell u something. I fly H2H so I can fly the Temp whenever i feel like it. I have plenty of experience in it. La-7 is MUCH better than the Temp, in turning and acceleration and climbing. It can catch a Temp, in level flight,at sea level. La7 whould be perked more than the Tempest.
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Isnt the tempest nearly 5 to 1 against the la7 this tour..
doenst that mean anything when a whine is on....
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Thats because one is a perk plane and it as flown as such . Considering that, it should be better than 5/1 . If the tempest was flown all the time like it is in h2h it would be much worse .
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Urchin, 4 hispanos, so it is better than anything with less than that.
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So you think then that if the La7 was perked and the tempest was not perked the ratio would reverse?
dont be silly.
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I can't say that I've flown the La7 much but, IMHO the Temp is better in every respect, because every La7 pilot is a dweeb :D
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Originally posted by Pongo
So you think then that if the La7 was perked and the tempest was not perked the ratio would reverse?
dont be silly.
The F4u1c k/d ratio improved when it was perked. The La7 a better fighter than the f4u1c has a worse k/d ratio than the chog .
If you think that unperking the tempest would not lower it's k/d ratio then you are the silly one .
People fly perk planes more cautiously than they fly free planes, refute this and you'll look dumb .
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Urchin, 4 hispanos, so it is better than anything with less than that.
Not everyone flies in straight lines and gets their kills from aerial straffing runs .
Granted, if you unperked the tempest we would have the chog problem all over again, but nobody is arguing that the tempest should be unperked . What I think people have a problem with is the disparity in cost between the tempest and La7.
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IMO, it is more than clear than 4 hispanos can over compensate by a wide margin any performance edge of the La7 at lo alt.
4 hispanos and an unveliable elevator authority (like the typh) at any speed avobe 200 mph means that you have more than credible chances of killing any enemy in the first snapshot oportunity with ease. Basically, the La7 will outperform almost any plane while Tempest is another point and click machine.
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You seem preoccupide with hispano brand cannons . HurriIIC has better elevator autority than tempest and it has four hispanos, so I guess it must be pretty uber . The three shvaks on the La7 have a higher rate of fire than hispanos, making them especially usefull for snapshots .
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So in order to be really better then the La7 it needs a what..10 to 1 kill to death ratio. Your whole contention is silly. The Tempest is way better then the La7. Its kill to death shows it. Guys are willing to kamakazi to kill a tempest in an la7 but they are very unable to do so...why? Far supperior plane...
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Originally posted by Samm
HurriIIC has better elevator autority than tempest
Put both planes at 300mph, pull Tempest up and lets see if the hurry, or even the La7, are able to follow that. Even more evident, go to the Ta and dive vertically from the first base at the NW corner to the sea and recover, first with La7, then with Typh, then with Tempest. You'll probably auger with La7, but the Typh and Typh2 wont need even vertical trimming to exit the dive.
And, btw, u cant spray with a hurri.
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Originally posted by Pongo
So in order to be really better then the La7 it needs a what..10 to 1 kill to death ratio. Your whole contention is silly. The Tempest is way better then the La7. Its kill to death shows it. Guys are willing to kamakazi to kill a tempest in an la7 but they are very unable to do so...why? Far supperior plane...
The tempest IS a better plane in many ways, except perhaps knife fighting.
K/D is a horrible way to compare free and perked planes. If the la7 were perked it would get a k/d ratio well above the f4u's and spit14.
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Original hyperbole by MANDOBLE
Put both planes at 300mph, pull Tempest up and lets see if the hurry, or even the La7, are able to follow that.
Yep sure can, you should've probably tested this out first .
Even more evident, go to the Ta and dive vertically from the first base at the NW corner to the sea and recover, first with La7, then with Typh, then with Tempest.[/b]
I think you mean DA, and why would I waste my time doing this ?
You'll probably auger with La7[/b]
Not unless I'm a dumb bellybutton .
but the Typh and Typh2 wont need even vertical trimming to exit the dive.[/b]
So ? Neither does the La7 .
And, btw, u cant spray with a hurri. [/B]
Oooooooh, so pesticide is NOT a loadout option for the hurri, thanks !
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La7 will have WAY worse controll in high speed. Tiffie won't compress. Tempest probarly shouldn't compress (in R/L either untill very very high speed, 600mph or so).
Tempest outzoom about every plane in the Arena, including LA7. Tempest outaccelerates all planes in all different attitudes, dive, level, climb etc. (except 262 in dive of course).
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Originally posted by Wilbus
La7 will have WAY worse controll in high speed. Tiffie won't compress. Tempest probarly shouldn't compress (in R/L either untill very very high speed, 600mph or so).
Tempest outzoom about every plane in the Arena, including LA7. Tempest outaccelerates all planes in all different attitudes, dive, level, climb etc. (except 262 in dive of course).
La7 handles better at high speeds than tempest and typhoon, they all turn the same at high speed, 6gs. But the La7 rolls faster than the tempest . The La7 also "zooms" better than the tempest below 8k .
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Tempest and La7 are very similar I think thats the whole point.
La7 is a biiiiit slower, has worse guns and ammo and not as good high speed control.
But both planes have the 2 elements that make them superior: excellent acceleration and cannons.
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leave my typhoon alone !
Or I'll squeak about those fast roller 190 fast climbing 109 and so on ...
Frankly MAN I don't see any reason to discuss about the hispano and the elevator authority in this thread :confused: :confused:
And if you're jealous of what can be do in a tiffy just fly it :D
You will soon notice what you can't do in a typhoon.:rolleyes:
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The la7 doesnt get 3 ShVAKs it gets 3 B-20s.
The 2 ShVAKs should hit harder then the b-20s. But in ah theres no difference I can tell.
I would take 2 x ShVAKS @ 200 rpg then 3 b-20s @ 150 rpg.
You only get 50 extra rounds. If modelled right the ShVAKS oughts be more lethal.
How many 3 b-20 canno la-7s were there anyway?
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IIRC the 3 B-20 option only appeared in 1945 (and fairly late on as well).
Also the B-20 and ShVaK fired the same shell: the B20 had slightly lower muzzle velocity (due to shorter barrel) and a slightly higher rate of fire so I suspect the damage is pretty similar.
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There were about 380 (385 or 383 I think) LA7's delivered with B20 before the wars end.
LA7 doesn't outzoom Tempest at any altitude although it can keep up with down low but is still worse.
Straffo, tiffie is UBER :D
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Straffo, tiffie is UBER :D
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh hhhhhh
don't bother me an continue yer U-152 quest :p
(I even outurned 2 zeke last night I can't figure why they followed me in a 400 + dive :D)
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LOL LOL.
U-152? That the U-boat that surrendered to the US very late? :)
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U-152 : http://uboat.net/boats/u152.htm
extract : Successes : No successes (never on combat patrol)
;)
When will you be back on channel ?
You are missing my growing musical skills !
I noticed you can make music with the spring of the X45 ... it sound a bit redneck music (aka banjo) but it work :D
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Originally posted by Pongo
So in order to be really better then the La7 it needs a what..10 to 1 kill to death ratio. Your whole contention is silly. The Tempest is way better then the La7. Its kill to death shows it. Guys are willing to kamakazi to kill a tempest in an la7 but they are very unable to do so...why? Far supperior plane...
You can't use K/D as a means of comparison in the MA. Different kinds of pilots tend to fly certain kinda of planes. For example, the P47-D11 and F190A-5 have incredible K/D ratios, but most would agree that other planes outperform both of them quite easily.
Here's some interesting logic:
Fact 1: The La7 out performs the La5 in every respect. (lighter wing loading, faster, and optionally better firepower)
Fact 2: The La5 has a better K/D ratio than the La7.
Conclusion: The average pilot skill of an La5 is superior to that of an La7, or more simply, La7 pilots are dweebs. Scientific Fact.
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But 5 to 1.
you cant discount it either...
This thread is about the Tempest being INFERIOR to the La7.
When the tempest is faster better armed and has way better performance at alt..and it is 5 to 1 in the main arena..doenst that refute some of this whining?
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I can discount it. I think pilot skill plays a large role in the Tempests K/D. I could be wrong here, I'm not sure. I don't often see Tempests, and when I do see them they aren't mixing it up in a massive furball with planes that are much better suited for it then they are. I do see LA7s mixing it up in furballs quite a bit, and they are usually the first plane to fall prey to a Spit or N1K in a furball.
That said, I think mainly horrible to below average pilots fly the La-7, and they fly it like it is a fast Spitfire. They are used to seeing 1 plane and knowing that their plane will be able to make up for any mistakes that they make. So if an La-7 sees a Tempest, odds are good that it will go hell for leather chasing after it, and odds are good that the Tempest will be able to drag the hapless La-7 driver off by himself, out of range of friendlies. From there it is a question of the La-7 driver making 1 mistake. That is all it would take with a pilot with good aim and 4 Hispanos.
It only takes one overshoot, how do you think I kill La-7s? It isn't like any of the planes I fly out-perform them.
But anyway, it seems the opinions are divided. Pongo says "Whiner", some people say the La-7 is better, and some people believe the Tempest is clearly superior. So, do you all think that the relative performance under typical MA circumstances is to close to call, and the fight would come down to pilot skill? That is what I'm leaning towards from my experience in the DA.
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Lame-7 is just a poor man's Tempest. Close to real thing, but still a copy and free ;)
Seriosuly now, Tempest is a better plane: speed, dive, guns, visibility, turn. Lame-7 is very close though. The perk price of both should be closer than it is, IMO.