Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: brady on October 21, 2002, 01:05:58 AM
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Today a ran a M8 up to an airfield(well near it) and parked 1.9 off the end of the Plane spawn point. I knew I was 1.9 out because the little red number told me so:) Any way I had a full load of HE for the M8 because this is what I came to do.
Hi My Name Is Brady and I am a Vulcher....
Alright my question is this, while lobing those 37mm HE rounds at the spawn point I discovered that hitting near the target had no appricable effect. Only direct hits did anything, it was kinda like hitting them with a single osty round you know wing falls off or the tail, in fact I mamed like 5 planes and only killed 3 outright.
To test my therioury I found the exact range and then moved the turet just a little of to either side but sitll realy close to the plane (which was parked) and the blast from the HE shell did nothing to the plane.
So my Question is this do HE shels from ground vehicals have a blast radious?
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a 37mm he would be very small... the fragments would be smaller than a .303 bullet.... u might pepper the frame but....
you'd need a direct hit to do anything. otoh, a 75mm HE might do a little more damge if it hits real close...
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They seem to have one sometimes. I know I've hit close to an M3 and M16 with a 75mm HE round and they blow up sometimes. Not all the time, but a bit to often for me to think that they suddenly hit a tree or something at the exact time my round landed near them.
I know the cannon rounds airplanes shoot have a HE blast effect- I killed an M3 earlier today by strafing it in a 190A8. I didn't see any hit sprites but all the rounds landed really close to the M3 and it blew up. There weren't any trees for it to run into either.
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Originally posted by brady
To test my therioury I found the exact range and then moved the turet just a little of to either side but sitll realy close to the plane (which was parked) and the blast from the HE shell did nothing to the plane.
my theory is when brady cant decide on how something is spelt he throws in as many vowels as he can :D
mwahaha , sorry brady me ol' mate , couldnt resist :)
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Well it is late:), and ya vouweles are a good thing:)
Well lets look at it like this say you were in the cockpit and opened up the canopy and droped out a grenade on the ground. and it just fell beside the plane, just how much damage would that do i wounder, certainly on a par with the 37mm HE round I should thing but then again I dont know how it is modeled. Those 7.5cm panzer rounds are prety good size realy, at least in comparision to any aircraft HE shels we have in the game.
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Well I looked it up, 3.13 pounds is the weight of a M8 37mm HE round.
From: http://www.wwiivehicles.com/html/usa/guns.html#37mmM5/6
Unfortunately I have not been able to find a figure for the 7.5cm spgr HE round for our Panzer but based on figures I found for AP rounds and assuming it would be lighter than an AP round I will say it is in the 10 pound range, or roughfly one 10th the blast effect of a 100 pound bomb. ( off topic, gee maybe this is why it takes so many panzer rounds to kill a hanger...lol, and why an osty is so much better at it, how many osty rounds fire off berfore the panzer even reloads, and i saw a figure for the osty 37mm AP round pentrating around 35mm @ 30 degrees)
This raises an interesting question, how anal is HTC about modeling blast effect? Different bombs had different percentages of HE filling relative to projectile wall thickness. For example that 10 pound shel may only have 1 pound of HE filling and 9 pounds of Steal , or it may be the other way round, and different bombs will have simmilar differances, a US 100 pound bomb may have a different blast effect than say a German 50kg( 110 pound aprox.)
bomb, now this is being anal to say the least, but just outa quierosity "just how do they do it I wounder?"
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Around 1.10 release people asked if bomb blast radius was going to be unrestricted, to which he answered that (either, don't remember) bombs or explosions altogether were never dumbed down, only hardness was set high; same comment as to this or that FM never being altered to adapt to netlag.
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hmmm
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Use AP against airplanes and hit a hard spot. ;)
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Well I looked it up, 3.13 pounds is the weight of a M8 37mm HE round.
As it's not specified in the table, is this the weight of the projectile, or the weight of the entire round (i.e., projectile, shell casing, and propellant)? Not finding a reference describing the projectile weight of the shell itself, I have to resort to comparisons among similar caliber weapons.
The German 3.7cm SK C/30 FlaK projectile only weight 710g -- about a pound and a half -- with an 80g bursting charge; is it reasonable to expect that a US HE projectile would be twice as heavy?
(http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Base/1852/37C30.jpg)
The AP-T Russian NS-37 37mm projectile -- a solid metal projectile except for the tracer compound recess in the base of the projectile -- weighed 760g, and the HE projectile weight 735 g.
On the basis of the evidence available, I suspect that your weight is high for a factor of two for the projectile itself.
Unfortunately I have not been able to find a figure for the 7.5cm spgr HE round for our Panzer but based on figures I found for AP rounds and assuming it would be lighter than an AP round I will say it is in the 10 pound range
The SprGr 39 projectile for the 75mm KwK 40 L/48 weighed 5.72kg; the PzGr AP projectile weighed 6.8kg. The bursting charge in the SprGr 39 would have been less than a kilogram of explosive, whereas a 50kg HC bomb would have about 25kg of explosive.
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"As it's not specified in the table, is this the weight of the projectile, or the weight of the entire round (i.e., projectile, shell casing, and propellant)? Not finding a reference describing the projectile weight of the shell itself, I have to resort to comparisons among similar caliber weapons.
The German 3.7cm SK C/30 FlaK projectile only weight 710g -- about a pound and a half -- with an 80g bursting charge; is it reasonable to expect that a US HE projectile would be twice as heavy? "
I beleave the weights given are for the prodjectile, not the compleat round, their are vast diferences in prodtcile sizes withen a given caliber, take the 12.7mm Ho 103 and the 12.7mm US Browning MG's, or the 7.5cm Kwk40 l/48 and the 7.5cm KwK42 l/70, just two of many examples.
TY for finding the weights of the HE round btw, this still does not answer just how HTC models the efect of the vastly diferent weapons in their HE effect, and adreasing this issues may be the key to adreasing the preceaved overefectivenss of the Osty vis a vis gound objects in the game.
This is to say that if the arivial of comparative efectiveness is based solely on prodjectile weight then clearly the desctructive effect of the osty, or any other rapid fire HE spewing device is going to be on an order of magnatude far greater, given the amount that can be deleaverd withen a given perioud of time. As aposed to the pontinal blast effect that the larger rounds would posess. Not to mention diferences in design of these rounds. I am aware of HTC posing detailed data of the of the diferent rounds for these weapons and bombs so it is possable to get quiet anal in looking at potientail effectiveness, but perhaps a bit to anal, the onlybenifit that comes to mind would be the potential enhancing of damage for larger calaber and slower firing guns, like the Panzer, LVT, and eveuntialy the Tiger, untill this is considered the Osty or any other rapid fire HE gun will be able to out preform these guns in terms of damage to structures or colaterial damage to planes and vehicals from near misses.
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For the 37mm projectile... think of it as half a grenade. Part of its lethality is the ability to penetrate something before exploding. A grenade sitting 10 feet from an aircraft at detonation should severely damage it?
The 75mm HE rounds most certainly can get proximity kills on parked/rolling aircraft. I've done it many a time.
AKDejaVu
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I am refering to a 37mm HE not Ap round, which would point impact and not pentrate.
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Originally posted by brady
I am refering to a 37mm HE not Ap round, which would point impact and not pentrate.
Its going to explode on contact at least... preferably with some kind of penetration. I've seen shots of it... and it would penetrate if it hit something.
What I don't believe it would do was detonate on a near miss. HE aircraft rounds relied on some kind of penetration or contact in those days.
Really... how much damage do you expect one to do 5-10 feet away?
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at 5 to 10 feat from a handgrenade i would expect to be dead, and since this is bigger I should think at least the same, mind you I am refering to parked planes.
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Originally posted by brady
at 5 to 10 feat from a handgrenade i would expect to be dead, and since this is bigger I should think at least the same, mind you I am refering to parked planes.
the damage these projectiles do is part blast, and part shrapnel... individual peices of shrapel will be fairly small, but numerous, pieces of metal that will bounce off a plane, or go thru fabric covered surfaces... the same effect on a person standing that close is... most likely torn up badly, but not necessarily. plus the plane is sitting several feet off the ground. if you hit right *under* the plane you might do some damage, or if you actually *hit* the plane sure, but a 37 he going off several feet off a wing, will most likely just pepper the wing, probbaly not even damaging it very much, if at all. 37mm is just too small and a plane too big, relatively, for proximity damage to amount to much.
imho, of course. teh blast itself may lift and drop a wing a bit, or the tail, but the impact back down on ground will be less than that of a hard landing.
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LOL! OK...
Let's see...
A 37mm round traveling at over 1000 fps is somehow supposed to impact the ground with enough explosive force to damage a nearby aircraft?
And...
A 37mm HE round won't penetrate an aircraft if it hits it?
And...
a 37mm HE round is supposed to have anywhere near the explosive force of a hand grenade?
Man... keep digging.
Here's an idea. The 37mm HE round may not be powerfull enough to damage an aircraft that is over 5 feet or more away. And no ammount of hypothetical situations would change the fact that you simply have to hit the airplane with the round to do any damage.
AKDejaVu
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Common sense says if it lands within 5 feet it would do damage due to its fragmentation Deja. Remember HE stands for High Explosive. Oh and Dominos pizza sucks ass. Sorry late night food run for us.
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I have used LVTa4's against aircraft at fields under attack, and yes you see a lot of them fall to pieces and ditch. You get credit for the damage you do (points) and you're keeping them from launching. If, you used AP instead and hit the plane in the cockpit, it should be an instant kill. Unless, of course, you hit the armor section which may help to save the pilot.
I have used HE from a panzer and wasted aircraft launching from a field. Close shots did not seem to have as great an effect unless the planes were moving. Direct hits often make the planes explode outright.
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"Let's see...
A 37mm round traveling at over 1000 fps is somehow supposed to impact the ground with enough explosive force to damage a nearby aircraft?"
I have from the start refered only to HE rounds no mater how fast their going are suposed to impact and blow up and hurt stuf. And certainly do so withen shuch a short distance as say 10 feet.
"And...
A 37mm HE round won't penetrate an aircraft if it hits it? "
Well I imagine it would before it exploded, but certainly not very far, but then again this was never an issue, I am not shure what this referance is. As it realy has nothing to do with my main topic which is balst effect.
"And...
a 37mm HE round is supposed to have anywhere near the explosive force of a hand grenade?"
The 37mm round I am refering to initaly is aprox 3 pounds, I have a couple hand grenades they dont weight 3 pounds.
"Here's an idea. The 37mm HE round may not be powerfull enough to damage an aircraft that is over 5 feet or more away. And no ammount of hypothetical situations would change the fact that you simply have to hit the airplane with the round to do any damage."
The main drive behind me stating all this about blast radious and HE effect of ground fired guns like the LVT and the Panzer and the M8 is looking for a way to logicaly explane why they should or could be more powerfull aganst structures and soft targets, as I explaned above. I am not whining because it was to much trouble for me to actualy have to hit the planes , loard knows it was easy enought to do, I missed on pourpouse to test the therioury of the blast effect and found it wanting.
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I beleave the weights given are for the prodjectile, not the compleat round, their are vast diferences in prodtcile sizes withen a given caliber, take the 12.7mm Ho 103 and the 12.7mm US Browning MG's, or the 7.5cm Kwk40 l/48 and the 7.5cm KwK42 l/70, just two of many examples.
However, I find it hard to believe that an HE projectilel is going to weigh twice what a solid-slug AP projectile is for a gun of the same caliber, regardless of the difference in the manufacturers.
From http://www.peleliu.net/USWeapons/37mm.htm
U.S. 37mm Anti-tank Gun M3
Weight: 912 lbs.
Dimensions: Length: 10 ft. 10-1/2 in.; Height: 3 ft. 1-7/8 in.; Width: 5 ft., 3-1/2 in.
Range: 12,850 yds. max.; 500 yards anti-tank
Rate of Fire: Rds. per minute in bursts: 20; in prolonged fire: 5
Ammunition: Fixed HE, AP, APC and Cannister, M3 Tank-AT gun series only.
Projectile weight: 1.5 to 2 lbs.
Carriage: Type: 2-wheel split trail.
Traverse: 30 degrees right & left
Elevation: + 15 degrees, -10 degrees. Fires from wheels or axle pivoted firing segments.
Normal towing speed: 35 mph. max.
The above gun was mounted, with variations in recoil and trunnion hardware, in the M8 armored car, the M3 and M5 Light tanks, and the turret of the M3 Medium tank. All of these weapons fired the same ammunition.
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Originally posted by Sachs
Common sense says if it lands within 5 feet it would do damage due to its fragmentation Deja. Remember HE stands for High Explosive. Oh and Dominos pizza sucks ass. Sorry late night food run for us.
Common sense says that a round designed to explode on impact/penetration with an object would have to hit the object for the intended effect.
Common sense says that something detonating well away from an aircraft is going to have less of an effect than 30 cal fire would.
I mean.. you weren't refering to scratches in the paint as damage were you?
Think about the mass of the projectile, where the explosive force is concentrated and just how little of the projectile is going to impact the plane from that distance (even 5 feet).
Damn guys.. this isn't exactly rocket science.
AKDejaVu
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The blast effect from a 1 pound he projectile will be very neglagible especially in an open enviroment like a runway. If the 37mm dug in a little befor it exploded(almost certainly unless its on the cement) its fragmentation damage would be greatly hampered.
Also fragments decellerate very quickly. Their balistics are horrible and the fragments from a 37mm will be bb sized any way.
Unless the round contacted the airframe and exploded I wouldnt expect any crippling damage. It is possible but seems unlikly. Now something proximitly fuzed to explode very close to the airframe..that would probably be deadly but even 10 feet from a 37mm he round would severly limit the effectivness of the round.
I have seen grenade fragments bounce off a normal jacket at 20 feet.
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Shiva, your source seams at face value to be a bit more reliable than mine, howeaver I have another I am checking with in regard to this issue and I will know more tomarow, ty for your input.
The main thrust of this post seams to be lost in the detail's at present, I will revisit under a better heading at a later date:)