Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Shane on October 21, 2002, 04:47:06 PM
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either add the 109f as it should be or replace p40e with p40b... the p40e is way outclassing LW stuff.
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The 109F is realy out the time frame I intended to represent, and the only counter to it firepower wise would be to add the Huricane IIC and that would be way outa the time frame I intended to represent. the P40E while brandishing that 6 pack of 50cal uberness is not realy unbalancing the planeset imo, it coiunters the C 202 which realy should not be hear either. The plane set is about balance firstly and history second, unfortunately we do not have a planest that is suficentaly developed to do a 100% historical plane match up for this time frame that would imo be ballanced, generaly speaking the Alies have a firepowere advantage over the Axis, but they ushaly do anyway(historicaly), 50 cal and hisppanos typicaly have twice the effective range as their Axis counterparts, and are very hard hitting. The Axis do have a preformance advantage in the 202 but only a slight one and they do have the 110, with two 20mm MGFF cannons*, bomber wise the Axis is also at an advantage. So as you can see each side has it's strengths and it weakness which seam to counter the other. I appricate your input but I have no intention of changing this weeks planeset, having spent time on each side, I can see no serious problems.
*while the preformance of the MGFF could best be described as lackluster when compared with the late war cannons and the Hispano, the comparitevly large ammo load does tend to help make up for this in the 110.
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109E's roll rate is off (I believe this was discussed not long after it's intro to AH) and that allows either the Hurri 1 or the P40 to escape at will.
I flew the P-40's the last two days, had no problem killing my enemies in the 202's and 109's.
Switched sides tonight to try and even the sides........NOW I know why I was getting kills so easily. 109E is not gonna tangle with the P-40E for long, it just won't stay locked up with a P-40's 6 due to the roll rate being off.
Add the 109F please................
(If I, not being a LW/Axis fan, can tell the planeset is off, ANYONE should be able to.)
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If you are being shot down while flying the 202 then stop using MA furball tactics and start flying it properly.
The 202 can completely dominate the P-40E.
I go into the CT and its guys doing the TB thing at 1000ft, then they gripe when they get tagged.
Stay high and fast, its not just a catchy phrase?
Cheerio.
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Joined Axis last night to balance sides, and was very surprised by the performance of the 109e. What a dog.
(BTW, there are some test reports that show much better roll performance for the P-40 than what we have in AH.)
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the 109e is a dog compared to the 109f but I think it holds its own one one one with the p40 and the hurri ... depending on pilot
key phrase here is: 1 on 1
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I hate to say it but the best thing about the CT for me is engaging in fights where less than a dozen people are involved.
Last night there were nearly 50 people online in the CT. It really does start to draw shades of the MA and simple furballs with 30-40 people in the same sector (let alone over the same airfield).
Barring command organization channeling large forces, the CT simply turns into "mini-main" with anything larger than 30 players.
Why bring this up here in a thread about aircraft disparity and timeline error? Because in the smaller environment of the CT, aircraft performance disparity can be, and should be, offset with the thing least required in MA furball combat - Thinking.
The CT should allow for disparity to the extent people are willing to take the challenge. After that its just a mini-main anyway.
Have fun.
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cc that. And I also agree with warloc. Don't fly for a fight, fly to get a job done (i.e. mission). 880 will be in the CT tonight, and if vf27 if there too, that should cut down on the furballing and introduce some interesting air action.
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In my humble opinion the 109E's biggest problem is the 60rpg in those already questionable cannon. A couple attempts at tracking shots and your RTB Ammo.
Once the wep is gone, the P40B actualy has a bit better performance that the P40E. I'm not sure how the two center synchronized .50 compare vs. wing mounts though.
The 109E vs 109F is a whole different ball of goo though. The 109E hits something like 280/290mph (non-wep/wep) and climbs at 2750/3000.
The 109F is 310/330mph and 3400/3900 fpm. Even with the gondolas you can still easily outrun and outclimb a P40. (The P40E is around 280/300mph and 2200/3100.)
So, I think the 109F would indeed be a bit of an overmatch for the P40B or E. But I also feel that the P40B should be able to hold its own against the 109E about as well as the P40E does. The P40B sacrifices some snap ability but the .50s still shoot 3 or 4 times as far as the 109E's cannon.
I also feel that in the CT we should accept that one side is going to be overmatched from time to time. As always, I will fly for the side with the lowest numbers and simply make do with the planes available.
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Originally posted by HFMudd
In my humble opinion the 109E's biggest problem is the 60rpg in those already questionable cannon. A couple attempts at tracking shots and your RTB Ammo.
Once the wep is gone, the P40B actualy has a bit better performance that the P40E. I'm not sure how the two center synchronized .50 compare vs. wing mounts though.
The 109E vs 109F is a whole different ball of goo though. The 109E hits something like 280/290mph (non-wep/wep) and climbs at 2750/3000.
The 109F is 310/330mph and 3400/3900 fpm. Even with the gondolas you can still easily outrun and outclimb a P40. (The P40E is around 280/300mph and 2200/3100.)
So, I think the 109F would indeed be a bit of an overmatch for the P40B or E. But I also feel that the P40B should be able to hold its own against the 109E about as well as the P40E does. The P40B sacrifices some snap ability but the .50s still shoot 3 or 4 times as far as the 109E's cannon.
I also feel that in the CT we should accept that one side is going to be overmatched from time to time. As always, I will fly for the side with the lowest numbers and simply make do with the planes available.
I agree with the mud man. I'm loving both sides of this setup. If Axis, I get to fly that lovely 202, in which any kill makes you feel warm all over. If Allied, I can fly the uber P-40, for probably the only time that will ever be so. I never could fly the Emil, anyway.
- oldman
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I have been flying Allies in this setup - love that P-40E but the other night I flew axis just because of the very large disparity in numbers. The allies outnumbered the axis by about 2 to 1. I flew both the 109 and the 202 and to be perfectly honest I am amazed I was able to do so well in the P40 against these two aircraft.
In everything except pure outright firepower the 202 completely dominates the P40.
The 109 outclimbs, out zooms and out turns the P40 (or maybe just the P40 drivers). It's only when I was at medium speeds and at an altitude disadvantate that the P40 gave me any trouble at all.
Against everything the axis has the Hurricane is outclassed completely in everything except slow speed turn rate/radius.
I'm certainly no expert at this game, but I figure this setup is about as good as it's going to get with the plane set we've got available in AH. I love it :)
Cheers,
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202 can dominate a fight with eas, problem is killing something with 2xBREDA machine guns. 109 E is marginally faster then Hurricane 1, climbs slightly slower and turns worse. Hurricane is in all and every situation better then the 109 E, pilot skill is what wins a fight between those two.
109 E can turn with P40 but is slower.
Main disadvantage of the 109 E is that it rolls about 15 degrees in one hour. All ANY enemy has to do it make 3 or 4 scissor turns and the 109 will be lost, even bombers outroll it.
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202 and 109e (a plane I cant fly either) both outperform the p40. Weopons of course are another story, but nowhere (if you look at the AH provided charts) does the 202 or the 109 have a performance disadvantage. The p40 does have a speed advantage with wep down low, but wep is short in the 40 and the climb in the 109 makes up for the speed.
If you start furballing in a p47 down at 1000 feet against a a6m2 I wonder how long you are going to live? you cant blame the planes on a pilots inability to fly them correctly.... Thats why some planes like the p40 f4u and others got such a terrible wrap to begin with. I dont mean that in a mean way.
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Yeah the 109 has the advantage at high alt, but down low I'd rather have a P40, and especially those 50 cals.
109 E and P40 E climb the same up to 8k.
P40 is about 10mph faster at all alts up to 14k. At 15k they are as fast. Then on all alts above the 109 is 10-20 mph faster. P40 E top speed is higher then 109 E top speed though.
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Wilbuz not to dis wep at all, but looking at the charts I think you are off a little. I guess I dont count wep as true plane performance, and you must be looking at those for your comparisson. Also, the 109 accelerates much better than the p40. So once your slow, the 109 can still get away from you. The one big advantage I see for the 40 performance wise is the energy retention, that p40 just loves to keep its speed up, and a little dive can bring it back up fast.
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"I dont count wep as true plane performance"
That is your mistake then. How an airplane performs when it's on climbout and crusing around doesn't matter in a combat comparison.
J_A_B
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http://www.jannousiainen.net/online_sims/jg_4/index.htm
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THAnKS wilbuz! I have been looking for that since I uninstalled my old browser.
I dont agree that wep is that important. It may be for a german plane, or 1 on 1, but when your going into a stale fight I tend to believe that most pilots only use there wep when they are climbing out or chasing. Not entering the fight with that E.
small difference
I was flying axis all evening, and it is a very close fight. None of the planes stand out particularly. The 202 is fast and climbs really well, but not that well. 110 is very competent as long as your careful, and the 109e does handle well if you dont pancake it like me.
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Oh the java charts are wep. I feel that is slightly misleading for speed and even climb, since planes like the 109 and 110 have plenty of wep, while the p40 and hurri do not.
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Plessure Erg :)
The planes are comptetive yes, the 202 can do whatever it wants basicly, climb away with eas. Problem is NON of the axis planes can get good kills fast. Today, I hit a P40 from 50 yards, lit him up good in 3 snapshots (not just one or 2 pings more like 10, and atleast a few were 20mm) but not untill the 3:d snapshot he actually died. (was in a 109). Guns just suck which makes furrballs VERY hard to LW. 1 on 1 fight, pilot skill will determine it all as most planes are quite equal in performance.
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Erg, 109 E and 110 C and G don't have more wep then P40 and Hurricane, just as short in all those planes. Not untill you get a 109 F and later do you have 10 minutes.
Also, it is the wep that matters, when you need to run/chase, you use wep, when you need to climb away from a fight, you use wep. No need for it otherwise except to gain some extra (sometimes well needed) power in turnfights. So the WEP performance is actually the one needed most for good plane comparisons.
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I had the same experience tonight, i must have put 30 to 40 rounds into a p40s rearend, not a darn thing. THey were all 7.7s (109). Amazing, makes my ego hurt when I think of how many p40s I have lost to the lw.
I will cede the climb wep to you, but the speed wep is misleading. Hitting wep when trying to extend does not increase your acceleration greatly (as far as I have noticed). It does help when leveling from a dive, but that is only one situation.
Are you sure the wep is as short lived for the germans? It really felt like the lw and 202 had longer wep than the p40. I may be crazy though. I am about to go up as allied, so I will investigate for myself.
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Positive, erg. Neither the Bf109E or C.202 uses the advanced types of WEP systems as seen in the later years. The Bf109E WEP runs hot after about 5 minutes, like every other plane, and so does the C.202 and Ki-61.
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As for the balance issues, I agree with Yeager and Mudd. To me the 50+ numbers furball didn't bother me much, but all the hissing and cussing caused by certain individuals made me think about what the CT is and what it can become. If the highlight of Lybia for me was the two-plane patrol duty me and Fatz did(though Fatz did become a little pissed at Odee, which I feel sorry for..), the low point was yesterday's 50+ people CT which some people just couldn't keep their mouths shut. I'd accept some naughty taunting in the Axis vs Allied spirit ;) , but intentional flames, name-calling, whining.. * sigh *
CT offers generally more balanced situations in numbers and plane types, but then again some aspects of historical matchups aren't balanced at all. A typical case is A6M5s and Ki-61s having to fight F4U-1s. If I were in the MA, no way I'd willingly fight F4U-1s in a Zero. I'd just take up my favorite late war rides and blast it away. But because it is the CT I'd gladly fight against those odds. Finding ways to overcome such odds with some organization, planning or cooperativeness is another big fun factor for the CT.
The key is enjoying the environment of the CT as a whole. If you're out to achieve satisfaction by lonewolfing around and shooting down large number of enemys gaining 7~8 kills like in the MA, it's never going to work, because the limited planesets make sure you're not it a super-craft which will outturn outrun outclimb outgun everything else by a humongous margin.
The thing is some people think they've won the fight when they use "superior" skills to grab the 6 of the enemy. When they can't shoot it down and it chooses to run, they follow it like a dog chasing a ball, find themselves surrounded by enemies and gets blasted away. Maybe one shouldn't be so aggressive as to try and kill everything with such lmited firepower and yet, they try. Then they get shot down for it. Then they find something or someone else to blame. Why?
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I've seen the tide of battle turn about 4~5 times in a single sector with equal numbers when 50+ people were on line. No side totally dominated the other.
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100% kweassa
I apologize for trying to get someone to shutup earlier today, as I am sure my poking at the moron was nearly as annoying or more so than the moron himself.
I think you really hit the nail on the head with the how many kills scenario. I do think it is possible to play that way though. In every setup there is a fastest and best climber of the bunch. For example in this setup if I wanted to lonewolf it I would grab a 202 and just be careful. That plane climbs better, accelerates, and has a higher speed at every alt. All you have to do is watch your ammo and shoot well. I think what MA people miss is being able to take that plane into a furball of other people fighting and picking off the fat.
In the CT getting a good radiator or oil hit is pretty much the same as knocking a wing off.
anyway, it was fun tonight. Our boston mission was a complete failure cause we couldnt hit the broad side of a barn, but at least most of us made it home.
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Side of the barn hell.....I missed the whole dam farmer's field!!!!
(note to self: never, NEVER get in a bomber again)