Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: gofaster on October 23, 2002, 09:05:11 AM
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I've been doing a little informal test period in ground vehicles this tour, when the map and battle situation is appropriate. My results:
(a) I'm breaking even in the M-16. It can get killed just as easily as it can get kills. Its greatest assets are 1) its speed, and 2) its "infrared" gunsight during night attacks.
(b) the Panzer is a death trap. PT boats have a better survival rate against aircraft. I think if HTC corrected the armour model for the Panzer, there'd be less whining for the King Tiger tank. They should also come up with a better way to aim long distances, like a magnifying scope of some sort. The #2 view we have right now is insufficient.
(c) the Ostwind is a killing machine. It can kill everything - on the ground and in the air. Why would anyone want to drive a Panzer when they can accomplish the same thing in a Ostwind?
(d) the M8 is a novelty with no useful purpose in Aces High. Anything it can do the Ostwind can do better.
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Originally posted by gofaster
(c) the Ostwind is a killing machine. It can kill everything - on the ground and in the air. Why would anyone want to drive a Panzer when they can accomplish the same thing in a Ostwind?
(d) the M8 is a novelty with no useful purpose in Aces High. Anything it can do the Ostwind can do better. [/B]
In regards to C, your answer is "with a Panzer, you can reach out and touch the Ostie long before he can touch you".
And D, the M8 is a sneak attack machine, it travels twice the speed of the Ostie and is good for pincering a slower enemy (think of it as a sort of Sherman)
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Well, the Panzer does have a “magnifying” sight. Hit the “Z” key, zoom in and out using the “[ ]” keys. Works well.
My regards,
Widewing
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Panzer IV = best vehicle killer in the game (ATM ;) )
If you get used to tank gunnery (guessing range right, judging enemy motion) you can get lots of easy kills. Just be sure to blast any Ostwinds that come near you.
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the Panzer is a death trap. PT boats have a better survival rate against aircraft.
Seeing that the others have addressed most of the other points, I would add the popping a PT boat is far easier than popping a Panzer.
Last night, in a La-7, I had to make multiple low speed passes on a panzer to get the kill, while I can kill a PT in one pass with a small amount of ammo.
I would have to say that disabling a panzer with a plane is way too easy, but it will definately survive longer than a PT boat. Once the turret is disabled, you might as well have been killed.
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Gofaster, Thank you for this interesting thread. My findings are rather different, so let me add my own comments.
- M16 - fast on the flat, but if you have to climb anything that remotely resembles a hill, it's a bottom gear job.
- Surprised to see the PNZR described as a death trap. A damn sight tougher than the Ostwind in my experience. When I'm manning the field gun, I can kill a M16 or M3 with about 3 hits. An Ostwind might take 5-10. The PNZR, however, can take 30 or more! I literally sit there plinking away for a minute and only manage to make it smoke, or bust one of its tracks.
- The Ostwind is my choice against aerial targets or close up soft targets, but the PNZR would be my choice for those long range shots against stationary GVs.
- I never bother with the M8 for the reasons you said.
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Last night, in a La-7, I had to make multiple low speed passes on a panzer to get the kill,
Thats the problem with the gvs right there, I bet you had low angle shots at about d500 too.
No way should you be killing panzers like that.
I cant see much use for perk gv when anything above .50 cal weasily kills them. Hell in rl even jabos had a rough time killing umm.
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Originally posted by Widewing
Well, the Panzer does have a “magnifying” sight. Hit the “Z” key, zoom in and out using the “[ ]” keys. Works well.
My regards,
Widewing
Wow, I didn't know that. I'll have to re-enter my trial period again and see if that skews the results any.
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"Hit the “Z” key, zoom in and out using the “[ ]” keys."
Also, use the F8 view to pan down for long range shots at maximum magnification.
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Originally posted by gofaster
Wow, I didn't know that. I'll have to re-enter my trial period again and see if that skews the results any.
Get good with that site, and you can hit a moving GV from 2 miles away :D
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
In regards to C, your answer is "with a Panzer, you can reach out and touch the Ostie long before he can touch you".
That may be true in theory, but not in practice. The Panzer really only works as a defensive weapon. I've found that unless you're on the defensive and have a clear line of site to the enemy's path of attack, the range advantage is nullified by the movement of your Panzer's gun if you're trying to advance on the enemy's position and get away from the spawn point or otherwise try to traverse terrain to get to a spot where you can see what you're doing. Even then, very rarely have I managed to take out an Ostwind with one shot. The first hit seems to take out the engine, and by the time I've reloaded the Osti has pumped 4 or 5 rounds in to me and I'm either dead or have lost the turret anyway. The Panzer is an easy kill for an Ostwind. The difference in rate of fire is to the Osti's advantage.
Originally posted by Ripsnort
And D, the M8 is a sneak attack machine, it travels twice the speed of the Ostie and is good for pincering a slower enemy (think of it as a sort of Sherman)
Maybe on flat terrain it would outpace an Ostie, but in the real battlefield environments I was experimenting in (coastlines, hilly terrain) I found that the M8's speed was offset by obstacles and elevations.
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Originally posted by Wotan
Thats the problem with the gvs right there, I bet you had low angle shots at about d500 too.
No way should you be killing panzers like that.
I cant see much use for perk gv when anything above .50 cal weasily kills them. Hell in rl even jabos had a rough time killing umm.
I have to agree !!! :D
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You'll change your perspective once you understand that you don't get within gun range of an Ostie.
Panzers whoop Ostie butt everytime, unless you "let" him get close, then you're not using the weapon correctly.
I am always on the offensive with tanks, rarely on the defensive unless a field is under attack.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
the Panzer is a death trap. PT boats have a better survival rate against aircraft.
Seeing that the others have addressed most of the other points, I would add the popping a PT boat is far easier than popping a Panzer.
A PT boat is a floating anti-aircraft battery. It can bring .50 cals, 20mm, and a 37mm cannon to bear on a plane. The Panzer only has the pintle machine gun. To kill a PT, you have to go through an awful lot of fire to get to it, whereas with a Panzer you can go in virtually unmolested. From an armour perspective, yeah, it takes more shots in a plane to kill a Panzer, but there's also a lot less risk of getting popped on your attack run. Your greatest threat in a Panzer strafe would be the ground.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Surprised to see the PNZR described as a death trap. A damn sight tougher than the Ostwind in my experience. When I'm manning the field gun, I can kill a M16 or M3 with about 3 hits. An Ostwind might take 5-10. The PNZR, however, can take 30 or more! I literally sit there plinking away for a minute and only manage to make it smoke, or bust one of its tracks.
Try using HE on the half tracks and M8's. It works great, and its like horseshoes, you only hafta get close to score. I always carry 20 rounds of HE in a panzer. When you use AP on those lightly armored vehicles, its just punching holes till you hit a vital component.
M8's are a blast to me. I love getting in the rear of an enemy attack and working my way up through em. If you hold your fire, aim carefully, you can pop the turrets on all the Osti's and Panzers. Kill the M-16's and M3's and go back and finish off the heavies with shots to the engine compartment Mucho fun.
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M8 works pretty good if you use its speed instead of trying to fight like you're in a panzer.
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Originally posted by gofaster
the M8 is a novelty with no useful purpose in Aces High. Anything it can do the Ostwind can do better.
Using an M8 to go toe-to-toe with a panzer or ostwind is like using a 202 to head on an IL2. The strenght of the M8 is to mvoe fast and get behind a tank or osty and pop them before they know what's happening.
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And offensively, the panzer is great for sitting 3 miles out and shelling fields and cities. Often they don't even know you're there -- stuff just starts blowing up.
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(b) the Panzer is a death trap. PT boats have a better survival rate against aircraft. I think if HTC corrected the armour model for the Panzer, there'd be less whining for the King Tiger tank. They should also come up with a better way to aim long distances, like a magnifying scope of some sort. The #2 view we have right now is insufficient.
Well, we're deprived of the coaxial MG that WWII tanks had -- a machine gun whose ballistics were matched to the shells the gun fired, so that you could range your target with the MG, then fire the main gun and have a pretty good chance of hitting your target, rather than the guesstimation we have to do now outside of icon range. The coaxial machine gun was also used offensively against soft targets, which we're short of in the game, so in that aspect we're not missing much, although it would have some limited utility against the M3 and M16.
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Panzers whoop Ostie butt everytime, unless you "let" him get close, then you're not using the weapon correctly.
Panzers should be whooping Ostie butt every time; it's the broken damage model that lets them throw fragmentation shells at a vehicle designed to withstand AP projectiles and cripple it at 2000 yards.
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Originally posted by Shiva
Well, we're deprived of the coaxial MG that WWII tanks had -- a machine gun whose ballistics were matched to the shells the gun fired, so that you could range your target with the MG, then fire the main gun and have a pretty good chance of hitting your target, rather than the guesstimation we have to do now outside of icon range.
Interesting ... didn't know that.
What I do know is that I can use the MG (I usually use zoom mode) to target the con and then immediately jump to the gun and it is pointed exactly where I had the MG pointed. This prevents from having to swing the gun from its last position. I have also noticed that if I position the MG crosshairs above the target, the gun will have been positioned accordingly. I'll bet that the MG will not fire the same distance as the gun, but isn't what I described something similar to what you have mentioned?
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That may be true in theory, but not in practice. The Panzer really only works as a defensive weapon. I've found that unless you're on the defensive and have a clear line of site to the enemy's path of attack, the range advantage is nullified by the movement of your Panzer's gun if you're trying to advance on the enemy's position and get away from the spawn point or otherwise try to traverse terrain to get to a spot where you can see what you're doing.
As far as I know WWII tanks could not or did not shoot 'on the run' because of that reason. The Gyro-stabilised mounting hadn't yet been invented. You do see film of Russian tanks shooting during a headlong charge but I gather that was only at very dense targets and even then more a demoralising ploy rather than in the hope of doing any real damage to specific targets.
I think the normal practice was the 'leapfrog' tactic in which one or more tanks stopped and engaged enemy gvs while others advanced about half a mile (dependent on terrain) and then stopped and took over the shooting. This allowed the first party to come through and advance. And so on.
That sort of thing depends on discipline and training and could only be carrried out by a dedicated squad of Tankies, IMHO.
Btw, if there is such a group on the Bish side, please email me. I would love to join.
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Originally posted by Shiva
Well, we're deprived of the coaxial MG that WWII tanks had
We are? So how did my panzers and m8 get thier coaxial machinegun? A cheat?
Map a key for "Secondary fire" for vehicles, it fires the coaxial machinegun.
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Innominate,
Could you please elaborate a little more ?
How is this any different than the MG in position 3 ?
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Originally posted by gofaster
(c) the Ostwind is a killing machine. It can kill everything - on the ground and in the air. Why would anyone want to drive a Panzer when they can accomplish the same thing in a Ostwind?
Because skillful panzer driver will knock down 3-6 osties attacking him before they will go into a range.
Fariz
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We are? So how did my panzers and m8 get thier coaxial machinegun? A cheat?
I have both a joystick button and a key mapped to 'ground vehicle, secondary fire' and neither of em fires the coax machine gun.
Can't find a key that does. Strangly (I've just found) my #3 joystick button that is mapped to 'show damage' does fire it.
Found a new gun to play with. Thanks!
Gatso
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From what position does one fire this coaxial MG ?
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Originally posted by Tjay
As far as I know WWII tanks could not or did not shoot 'on the run' because of that reason. The Gyro-stabilised mounting hadn't yet been invented. You do see film of Russian tanks shooting during a headlong charge but I gather that was only at very dense targets and even then more a demoralising ploy rather than in the hope of doing any real damage to specific targets.
I can quote Huderian (my translation):
Shooting during movement, which was so popular at the peace time, at the war time was used only on special situations, for example at the suprise engagement, or in the night time engagements. Because stabilizing gear was not yet invented, accurasy was not high, and use of shells excessive.
About the soviet war time films, very often they were produced: for example I read a numerous accounts on how for chronicles many panzers and planes were send together, filmed, and then sent back to places of their locations. I saw couple such chronicles (it was a 20 frames long film from the war time films during the Soviet time, I saw it like 100 times :) You could identify them by the low fighters flying over the tanks.
But, from the other hand, in the memories of one of the german panzer commander (he was in a tiger), who took part in Prohorovka battle, I read something like that: "t34 attacked us at
full speed, and because we had a problem with a gun, we could destroy it only when it came very close. While aproaching us it kept fire, and were able to fire 4 shells. After the fight I saw 4 marks from its shells on the front part of our turret". He said that to prove that t34/76 guns were uneffective against tigers, and german panzers loses to t34s were neglectable. May be that t34 was lucky, or that commander just forgot how it was, but that is what I read.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I would have to say that disabling a panzer with a plane is way too easy, but it will definately survive longer than a PT boat. Once the turret is disabled, you might as well have been killed.
Not So!
I've gotten lots of kills of a/c with the hull gun < eg >
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Use your secondary weapon button to fire the co-ax mg from the #2 position.
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Originally posted by MrLars
Not So!
I've gotten lots of kills of a/c with the hull gun < eg >
Me too, in an Osty! :D
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Under setup go to Key mapping, and then Gunner. Under Fire Secondary map a key (I use V) and when you jump to position #2 hitting this key fires the coaxial MG.
I think PT's are very easy to kill. Very seldom have I come across someone that can use a PT well enough to kill my plane. You do want to look out for the rear cannon, though.
If, you can detrack a panzer, you can leave him sitting there, unless he's within range of an asset or friendlies. Not many people will sit in a wounded panzer very long. If, he calls for supplies, you can vultch his M3 friend as long as you can avoid the .50 cal.
Unless, you can flank an Ostie, stay out of range of its gun.
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Originally posted by Widewing
Well, the Panzer does have a “magnifying” sight. Hit the “Z” key, zoom in and out using the “[ ]” keys. Works well.
My regards,
Widewing
I gave that a try last night with dramatic results!
I was involved in the base-ownership-swap battles going on over V69 (a vehicle base that spawns to 4 surrounding air bases, like a wheel). The Knights owned one of the airbases and the Bishops owned the other 3 (with the Rooks briefly owning a base but losing it before they could launch an attack on V69). I drove the Panzer quite a bit - on an offensive strike against an airbase and on a defensive sweep of a spawn point. Magnifying the aiming scope was a tremendous help in spotting the enemy and in placing my shots. I was in a two-hour battle with Booyall and Kite777 of the Bishops as we traded salvos and tanks. After I lost my turret, I was using the scope for spotting the rounds for my fellow Knights as they took positions behind me.
The Bishops owned V69 first, along with the adjoining air bases. Then we Knights got an airbase and launched a combined air/ground assault on V69. Once we had V69 we launched combined air/ground attacks on A3 (I think that was the number) and another Bishop base. After the Bishops had beaten off our assault they re-captured V69 but we launched a ground assault from our air base's vehicle hangar and recaptured V69 by air. I ended the night trying to stop Kite777 and Booyall from taking V69 again by the ground. I found that if I was patient and stopped the tank, fired, killed my target, then moved a bit until I found the next tank, stopped, fired, killed it, then moved on, I could take out targets with better accuracy and fewer wasted shells. It was also useful to fire the smoke shells to mark the general direction of the attack so that I had a landmark to use when traversing the cannon and maneuvering. I also learned that its possible to land a smoke shell in a tree!
During the ground assault on the airbase, I was in a Panzer, spearheading the armoured column. As I made my way to the ridgeline overlooking the base, I took out a couple of Ostwinds and another Panzer by using the magnification settings on the scope to sweep the terrain ahead of me. I would spot the target, stop the tank, aim, fire the cannon, magnify, adjust, fire again, repeat until someone is beaten.
On the climb up the ridge, I took out 7 aircraft by simply pinging them with the pintle and then watching them faceplant on their attack run, except for the last 3, for which I got proximity kills on because they couldn't navigate the ridgeline properly. By then I had lost my turret, both tracks, and an engine and was smoking badly. Since I still had my hull machine gun, I managed to ping up a Bishop M-16 from the airbase that was making a run for the Knight armoured division. I ditched for a fresh vehicle before I could get any credit for an assist.
At one point I used an M-8 to cap V69 and got a couple hits on a Panzer's tail end before getting blown to pieces by the Panzer's cannon. How many hits does an M-8 need to score with the AP rounds to kill a Panzer? Because of the terrain around V69, I wasn't able to get the M-8 Greyhound to its maximum speed and only got behind a Panzer once. The M-8 is a novelty - it doesn't seem to have much luck against the Panzer and Osti in a close-in battle.
This sim could really benefit from having an Allied tank (maybe a Sherman or Mathilda or Soviet T-34) and a German half-track weapons platform of some sort. I think some armoured TODs or scenarios would be a lot of fun.
Maybe its just me, but I find it hard to believe that an Ostwind would be capable of killing a Panzer. At one point, I was able to get some kills at V69 by parking my Osti behind the spawn point for the Bishop Panzers that were trying to launch. Not very realistic, and probably a bit gamey, but that's what I had to do to help my country assault the base. I think a more realistic result of Osti firepower would be a lost track or smoking engine, but not an outright kill :(
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Originally posted by Voss
Under setup go to Key mapping, and then Gunner. Under Fire Secondary map a key (I use V) and when you jump to position #2 hitting this key fires the coaxial MG.
Wow! I'll have to keep that in mind. Right now I aim the hull machine gun by placing my cursor in the site for the pintle gun, then jumping to the hull gun position. The cursor marks the boresite for the hull machine gun.
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Furthermore, Panzers had that band-of-triangles type sight that allowed you to judge range and speed of an enemy by comparing it's (known) dimensions with how many mils in triangles it covered.
You didn't have to adjust the targeting optics up to elevate the gun, too. Gun elevation was set and visible in the optics, but they didn't point up.
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Go faster, when in an M8 vs Panzer or Flak, ALWAYS shoot for the turret. Once you get that either move on or finish it off from the rear. Don't move in front of either as the hull machine gun can take out your tires etc.
If you find yourself face to face with the panzers turret, keep moving and go for a side or rear shot as the turret mantle is to thick to penetrate.
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Lol.... that hull gun will kill more than an M8s tires. I'd say the M8 has about a 5% chance to kill a Panzer IV, and about a 1% chance of killing a Flakpansie... whether they have their main guns or not.
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when I hit my secondary fire button in a panzer all it does is fire my ap shell, no coaxil gun? Am I missing something here?:confused:
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I dont get a coaxil gun when I fire my secondary, all that happens is my main turret AP gun fires. Any ideas why this happens?:confused:
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The coaxial gun in the PzKpfw IV isn't modelled; you fire the main gun regardless of which fire button you use. This results in a lot of wasted ammunition as people take ranging shots with the main gun that would not have been necessary IRL.
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The coaxial gun in the IV IS modelled :rolleyes:
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Just figured out today cause of this thread you have to map the secondary fire key in gunner section for the coaxial gun on the m8.
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Originally posted by bloodstain
I dont get a coaxil gun when I fire my secondary, all that happens is my main turret AP gun fires. Any ideas why this happens?:confused:
What I had to do is go into "Setup", then click on "Stick mapping" and then click on "Gunner" and you'll see the options to map the coaxial "secondary" gun to a button. I think the default is the #3 button but I switched it to #2.