Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Soviet on October 23, 2002, 11:20:40 PM
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http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/10/23/russia.siege/index.html
I hope Grozny get's nuked. Bastards
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After all the moaning and squeaking you did here last year about the Chechens, it'll be interesting to see if peoples attitudes in other countries have changed.
Time to throw the "I told you so" card on the table Soviet.
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People keep making the mistake that attitudes last forever. If Soviet or his countrymen had different attitudes about the Chechens than currently (with the terrorists holding over 700 hostages), then that should indicate to you that the situation has changed.
We Americans used to support Iraq and Saddam against Iran, but now the situation is different. Things change.
Vulcan - there are people's lives at stake. Please don't use Soviet's, and the Russian people's, pain as a platform to further your own track record of "correct" analysis. Even if you're right, it would be far better for you and your audience to empathize rather than critique on soooo may different levels.
I wish the format of the BBS would allow me to mellow the harshness of the above criticism - as if we were in a bar and had the mellow buffer of a few beers - but I gotta say, that response was cold.
To Soviet - I hope this thing works out with the Russians firmly on top. I can imagine ideal scenarios and I hope you and yours don't suffer the same as we did.
-sudz
PS The American revolution was accomplished without holding hostages.
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I think you're reading me wrong here. Soviet, in the past, has been flamed for his views on Chechen terrorists (I'm sure it was Soviet) and the way the world condemned Russia for the way of dealing with them.
My point was, I wonder if those people who called his terrorists 'freedom fighters' at that time will have changed their minds now that terrorism has hit so many place free from it before.
Maybe you shouldn't overanalyze me so much sudz, you reading a hell of a lot into a simple statement pointing out Soviet was right 12 months ago.
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Guess it's time to delete another Chechenian city from the map by using heavy artillery and bombers.
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I am too emotional now for any comments.
As I said many times before - Stalin found the only possible solution for Chechen problem in 1944.
One of our regiment's pilots, Elly Estel, has a friend there, he's a sound engineer in Nord-Ost show.
As they said on TV - Georgiy Vasilyev, the great Russian bard is there too... His partner, Alexey Ivaschenko managed to escape, but broke his leg.
People said that this night Kremlin and other government buildings was blacked out, like in 1941.
I watched non-stop TV coverage last night, and all I want to say is that TV reporters and journalists must be hanged on street lampposts.
Hey, where are that bloody EC officials moaning about "human rights" now? Where the diddly are US Department of State bastards who invited Chechen representatives for "consultations"?
Listening to Ivaschenko and Vasilyev's "Rain over Issyk-Kul" for 12th time...
All we will get is the restricted passport regime, soldiers in subway cars and armour in the streets. After each accident they start to show useless activity.
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I have seen some of the public as well as "not so public" propaganda videos of chechens murdering Rusian soldiers. I don't think much of a group that would do such for a propaganda video.
Ants get in your house, you don't try to make a peace accord. You go get the bug spray.
Hey Ruskies, me and my family will be praying for a positive outcome.
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Didnt theses murdering bastards plant a tube of radioactive waste in a park in Moscow? There point was it could have been a dirty bomb of they wanted.
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Ain't it wonderfull to live in a multicultural society?
We need more of that in US, don't we?
miko
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My grandmother grew up in the Caucasus and I remember-as a boy-her telling me that the Chechens where nothing but thieves and murders. This was long before the current conflict. I hope that Russia teams up w/ their Orthodox brothers in the region and helps settle some "old scores." There are a lot of angry Christians in that region that would really welcome the help. The Caucasus where the site of our centuries first genocide-when over 1 million Armenians where systematically exterminated and many more enslaved by their Moslem neighbors. With all of the vital oil resources in the region-Russia should seize all of the Caucasus and expel all Moslem's from that area…………
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The more I think about possible scenario, the more sad I get :(
First: assault, that will result in at least 200 deaths...
Second: our beloved authorities letthem out and give them whatever they ask for: money, buses, planes.
What people here say: Europeans forced us to "suspend" all death penalties, so the good idea is to send them to Turkmenistan or another Moslim state where they will be executed in public, like in that Tom Clancy's book...
diddly. In 1999 Russian army waited for 2 weeks to let all "civilians" get out of Grozniy before the massive assault according to regulations, with artillery and aviation support. And all that european amazinhunks like that toejamheah lord judd are still speaking about atrosities and "human rights" for bloody bastards! And bloody Rumsfeld says something about souverign Georgia, protecting terrorist bases! You call in "war against terrorism"?! When Russian customs check "humanitarian aid" to Chechnya delivered from the US, that turns out to be US field uniforms and equipment?!
Did your media tell you when in 1995 Chechen gangs captured maternity home in Budennovsk? I mean the hospital for pregnant women and new-born babies? IMNSHO that only episode was enough to understand who they are.
I was surprised that Leonid, who is interested in what happens in Russia, didn't know about Moscow apartment bombings. He didn't know that Chechens blew up 4 apartment houses at night, full of sleeping people!
I wonder if we are still strong enough to move all population of Chechnya in one night, like on Feb, 23, 1944, but this time not to Kazakhstan (Kazakhs will not be happy), but to Novaya Zemlya?...
Now terrorists say they want right-wing (I mean - liberal) politicians, and say they'll release some hostages for them. I think it's a good deal, but only if they'll execute them in front of TV cameras. Something like 50 hostages for a parliament memeber or 20 for a "liberal, pro-Western" journalist is enough.
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Hey, where are that bloody EC officials moaning about "human rights" now? Where the diddly are US Department of State bastards who invited Chechen representatives for "consultations"?
Last I heard Russia was a democratic state and a world player. Therefore it must abide by International Agreements on human rights. The Chechan terrorists are, by their definition, outlaws. Therefore their mere existance is illegal nevermind any acts they perpetrate.
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28sweep, the problem is that US and international oil monopolies will support Azerbaijan and other Moslim countries, and US openly supports Georgian regime that hosts and feeds Chechen terrorists. It's BIG money, just like the planned war against Iraq. Noone cares about terrorists, everyone just counts money.
Even many Moslim nations from Dagestan are eager to eliminate the Chechen threat, and supported Russian army in 1999 when Chechens invaded Botlikh district in Dagestan...
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Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
Last I heard Russia was a democratic state and a world player. Therefore it must abide by International Agreements on human rights. The Chechan terrorists are, by their definition, outlaws. Therefore their mere existance is illegal nevermind any acts they perpetrate.
So, please, make your lord Judd and other amazinhunks STFU. "Uh-oh, poor, poor Chechens! Bloody Russians used heavy artillery against thier cities!" - or should we send thousands of our boys to death in a bayonet attack against their fortified positions?!
"Uh-oh, poor, poor Chechen refugees! They are starving and freezing!" - while in fact they are parasites who prefer to be fed and dressed by Russians, and refuse to return to Chechnya, and even refuse to clean their own trash - Russians must do everything for them, cleaning isn't a job for proud Chechen heroes! I wish that any aid to them must be stopped, we need that money for homeless children.
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It's time the West (US and Europe) stand by Russia to support their right to defend and protect their people from terroism. This muslim fundamentalism has nothing to due with religion or the rights of an oppressed segment of the population.
We should stop worring about Saddam, and really see where the evil exsists in this world.
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Shit. They start to kill hostages...
http://forum.wbfree.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=109073#post109073
30 ìèíóò íàçàä ïðèøëà SMS-êà. "Vse na predele". È ýòî ïîêà âñå. Ãëîñîâîé ñâÿçè íåò. Äîìà ó íåãî æåíà ñ äèòåì ïî ïîòîëêó òðîïèíêó ïðîòîïòàëà. Ñ íåé ñèäèò îäèí èç íàøèõ êîìàíäèðîâ ãðóïï. Îíè åãî ñîñåäè ñíèçó....
Motherdiddlyers...
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Ehm... I have some problem with cyrillic, can you translate?
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Are the Chechnen rebels Islamic too? (You know, that religion that is so peaceful..)
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I really wish Russia would lead the way and create a Pan-Orthodox state throughout Europe and Asia. Once this is done- this new state will march on all of the Moslem's that "put us to the sword." Azerbaijan, Turkey, Bosnia ...etc......I am a proud American..an American first-but I was very sad to see us bomb the Serbs. The Bosnians, Chechens, Turks, Azer's, etc. are all murdering thugs that will get their pay-back soon enough. I think Russia needs to take leadership on this and expel all Moslems from the region. My fellow Americans-please remain silent on this issue-you are not complex enough to know what's at stake here. Just keep quite and let Russia do it's thing.
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It's a post from Elly Estel, who's friend is there... He sent an SMS, "everything is close to the limit"... His wife and kid are in hysteria, people from Elly's crew (Moscow Rescue Service) are sitting with them...
The killed hostage was a woman...
They are going to declare "state of emergency" in Moscow... I am happy I got my temporary ID document yesterday instead of my lost passport...
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I really wish Russia would lead the way and create a Pan-Orthodox state throughout Europe and Asia. Once this is done- this new state will march on all of the Moslem's that "put us to the sword." Azerbaijan, Turkey, Bosnia
Let's start a new crusade!!!
kill the infidels.
Our God it's the only God!!!
Nuke hem all!!!!
.....
Oh, little poor world... :(
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Are the Chechnen rebels Islamic too? (You know, that religion that is so peaceful..)
Check this site out Rip for Q&A...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2355419.stm
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Excellent link Rogwar, thks.
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The link shows typical Western view on the problem. Not a single word about Russian refugees from Chechnya in 1991-94, nothing about the criminal withdrawal of Soviet/Russian troops when all the stocks were left for Dudayev's gangs... Just "What every American must know about elephants".
BTW, look at this: http://www.kavkaztop.com/eng/
It's a terrorist propaganda site, must be interesting for you.
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Geez, Boroda. Does the USA have to take the blame for EVERYTHING the goatherd's do???
Listen, if you want US troops on Russian soil to help ya all out with your goatherd problem, let us know. Just set aside some of that good Russian vodka for us after the fighting is over.....
Cabby
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Our thoughts and prayers are with you and your countrymen Boroda.
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Cabby, when did I say that? Only for some things, not for everything ;)
BTW, when people like Toad started that whine about "unnessesary violence" and "civilian casualities" I have said many times: if you are so clever - go fight there yourself, and see what will you prefer, to send your soldiers to death or use heavy weapons etc. War is war, and it's not the place for sentimental roadkill. Enemy has to surrender or die. So - you see, we agree on some things.
As for vodka - it's no problem, we'll be honoured to drink with you, but next morning don't say we wanted to kill you ;)
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Quote:
"As for vodka - it's no problem, we'll be honoured to drink with you, but next morning don't say we wanted to kill you"
Heheh...............
I agree with your post above but be forewarned: Russia will take plenty of European heat for it.......
Hope you all get most of those poor people out of that theatre alive.........
C.
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In WW2 we bombed German cities killing innocent german civilians. It was necassary to win the war. Same with civilians today. Israel may kill innocent palistinians. Russia innocent Chechens (although i don't consider any chechen innocent).... It's a part of war you have to accept.
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Was there a chechen terrorist problem before the USSR invaded that country the first time ?
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Soviet one thing: Several years ago when some whacko was killing tourists in the U.S do you think the victim's relatives cursed "F****ing Americans" or "F****ing murderer" ?
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Al Qaeda and Chechen rebels are known to have trained together. Both are terrorist groups, Russia deserves support on that front. Telling them to lay off of the Chechen rebels is hipocritical.
I don't care who you are, or what you're fighting for. If you are bombing civilians, you're not a freedom fighter, you're not a "rebel", you're a terrorist. If these groups would stick to military targets, THEN they can claim to be freedom fighters or whatever they want to be called. Bombing civilians is cowardly, and counterproductive. Even allowing it to work is just asking for even more.
Now there are people who say things like, "What do you expect? There is no way these guys would have a chance standing up to country X's military!". The same was said about the british army being unbeatable some 225 years ago.
Oh an on a side note, F*** the people who think that these poor innocent persecuted terrorists should be dealt with peacefullly. Maybe we should give them all a time-out.
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In WW2 we bombed German cities killing innocent german civilians. It was necassary to win the war. Same with civilians today. Israel may kill innocent palistinians. Russia innocent Chechens (although i don't consider any chechen innocent).... It's a part of war you have to accept.
Once you've won the war, you have to help your enemies reform, or you will have to fight another war with them, and another, and another.
If, once you've won, you see it as a chance to enrich yourself at your beaten enemy's expense, you're going to have another war again soon.
It's something the Israelis don't understand. Here's hoping the Russians will, once they have done what's necessary.
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Islam is a religion of peace.
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Originally posted by funkedup
Islam is a religion of peace.
Some say it is, i'm not sure. All i know is extremists stain it's name.
Makes me think of becoming atheist (currently Roman Catholic). All religion seems to do is start wars and violence these days. Particularly islam. Don't get me wrong, Christianity has had it's fair share (crusades, inquisitions...) but Christianity has moved on. Islam is still back in the 13th century.
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Any real Russian government would have allready blown up the building, declared the hostages heroic martyrs of the motherland and sent the nukes flying...
And I thought Putin was tough guy... :(
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Well you see Christianity had a 600-year head start over the Muslims :)
Seriously, I hope those scumbags get what's comming to them.
J_A_B
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Islam is a religion of peace.
In 1972, the IRA set off three bombs in the village of Claudy in Northern Ireland.
The first car bomb was placed in the centre of the village, the other two at either end, timed to exploded as people fled th first bomb.
9 people died, mainly pensioners and children.
The bombing was carried out by an IRA gang lead by a serving Catholic priest.
2000 people were murdered by terrorist groups intent on establishing a Catholic state. Another 1000 were murdered by terrorist groups intent on maintaining a Protestant state.
Most priests allowed terrorists to be buried in their churchyards with full "military" honours, complete with other terrorists firing salutes over the coffins, and "politicians" justifying the actions of the thug being buried.
Is Christianity a religon of peace?
I'd still say yes, and Islam as well.
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Originally posted by Boroda
The link shows typical Western view on the problem. Not a single word about Russian refugees from Chechnya in 1991-94, nothing about the criminal withdrawal of Soviet/Russian troops when all the stocks were left for Dudayev's gangs... Just "What every American must know about elephants".
BTW, look at this: http://www.kavkaztop.com/eng/
It's a terrorist propaganda site, must be interesting for you.
Thanks for pointing out other views. As with all events it's best to review a variety of sources.
Our prayers go out to the captive Russian people and their families, as well as all the others held.
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Aren't these Russians the same folks that are dragging there feet (along with the French, of course) on Bush trying to get rid of saddam. I guess it depends on whos ox is getting gored.
Also I seem to remember that we gave these guys a hand in WW2. They expressed there gratitude with 40 years of cold (some times, not so cold) war. Personally, I think they need to sort out their own problems. We got troubles of our own.
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Aren't these Russians the same folks that are dragging there feet (along with the French, of course) on Bush trying to get rid of saddam. I guess it depends on whos ox is getting gored.
Well it's not that they don't want us to act unilaterally because they are as some think the peace loving peoples of the world and the U.S. is evil warmongers.
It's just that in politics and business nothing is for free when they see the U.S. eyeballing iraq like it's a big ol' pie ready for the taking they want to make sure they get their fair share too. Heck we do the same thing, it's the nature of the beast.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
In 1972, the IRA set off three bombs in the village of Claudy in Northern Ireland.
The first car bomb was placed in the centre of the village, the other two at either end, timed to exploded as people fled th first bomb.
9 people died, mainly pensioners and children.
The bombing was carried out by an IRA gang lead by a serving Catholic priest.
2000 people were murdered by terrorist groups intent on establishing a Catholic state. Another 1000 were murdered by terrorist groups intent on maintaining a Protestant state.
Most priests allowed terrorists to be buried in their churchyards with full "military" honours, complete with other terrorists firing salutes over the coffins, and "politicians" justifying the actions of the thug being buried.
Is Christianity a religon of peace?
I'd still say yes, and Islam as well.
How many Irish did the Brits murder, rob, rape and humiliate over the centuries?
Kick a dog long enough you will get bit. Dont blame the dog.
The Irish never wanted to take over England or the world. They just want you brits to get the hell out their land.
Islam has much greater plans and is a far more of a danger to the world in general the the IRA ever was.
Why do you hate the British, because the British makes us hate them.
Protestants use terror themselves to hold on.
The IRA is no where in the same same leagues as the Chechens or any of the Islamic terrorist organization.
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Im really beginning to dislike muslim militant fanatics.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Im really beginning to dislike muslim militant fanatics.
I pretty much dislike all militant fanatics. :)
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How many Irish did the Brits murder, rob, rape and humiliate over the centuries?
Kick a dog long enough you will get bit. Dont blame the dog.
That's ok then! So why should 12 year old kids, blown to smithereens by a bomb in Warrington less than 10 years ago be responsible for acts perpetrated 300 years ago. Why should men, women and children blown into lots of little pieces by the Omagh bomb (killed 38) be held responsible for acts committed before they were even conceived?
By your logic, the WTC victims deserved to die because of what Western civilisation did a 1000 years ago in the crusades.
Your argument doesn't hold water in the slightest and excusing the actions of a pack of animals (on both sides of the paramilitary equation) is disgusting. :mad:
The Irish never wanted to take over England or the world. They just want you brits to get the hell out their land...
Typical, the ignorant yank pretending to be a great authority on a subject he knows very little about. Get this - NI is hugely complex problem, and the issues contained therein cannot be summed up in some glib one line comment. For a start, a huge proportion of the NI population wants to stay part of the UK - it's not some Braveheart "Get orf my land you evil English" scenario. I'm sure you want to believe that - hell, so many of your compatriots gave so generously in the past based on that concept alone, and I'm sure they'd be ready with their check-books as soon as the IRA takes up arms again.
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Even us ignorant colonist have heard of Cromwell. And his nasty habit of executing Irishmen by the thousands. Then there was that business of locking up that stadium. And machine gunning the spectators. Not so long ago really.
What ever else we Americans did in Vietnam. At least we had the grace to get off the other fellows land, when the time came.
Give Ireland back to the Irish.
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How many Irish did the Brits murder, rob, rape and humiliate over the centuries?
How many Brits did the Irish murder, rob, enslave etc over the centuries?
Hint, St Patrick wasn't born in Ireland, he was captured by a slave raiding party.
How many Chechens did the Russians kill in the last few centuries?
How many Palestinians did the Israelis kill in the last few decades?
The Irish never wanted to take over England or the world. They just want you brits to get the hell out their land.
The Chechens just want the Russians off their land. The Palestinians just want the Israelis off their land.
Give Ireland back to the Irish.
It was given back, in 1922. A large segment of the population didn't want to leave Britain, so the land was split up, with those wanting to leave getting the lions share, those wanting to stay getting a smaller area.
Both sides got what they wanted, unfourtunately, a small group can't bear the thought of compromise, and want everything for themselves.
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What Nashwan said.
So that's Wotan and Easymo down as being terrorist sympathisers, right?
Because that's what giving NI 'back to the Irish' (whatever the hell that means, given the actual demographics of the place) means in real terms.
You'd be going against the wishes of a historically significant proportion of the population, based on the terrorist actions of a tiny minority.
Devolved, de-centralised power is the only way forward, something which the British government instigated 4 years ago and has only recently been scuppered because Sinn Fein had an IRA spy in Stormont, passing secrets to the organisation.
As for previous actions of the British government - they were shameful, but I fail to see how killing innocent women and children who weren't even born when the atrocities occured is justified or indeed defensible.
You might as well be saying the WTC victims deserved it because most of them were US citizens.
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Wotan old pal, you absolutely sure of what you're talking about?
Ever been to Northern Ireland? Ever actually asked one of the residents what *he* wants?
Try it, ya might be surprised at the results.
Know what would happen if the Brits pulled out completely? Anarchy, that's what. Catholic and Protestant battles over a 300 year old grudge and modern intollerance of another religion......which, IMO, is absolute bollocks anyway. Why on earth should 2 people hate each other cos they're part of different religions. Go figure.
Anyway, thats the point. In Northern Ireland you'll find a huge majority that want to be part of Great Britain. It's always really pissed me off when I see Yanks saying "Brits get out of Ireland", doesnt matter what the Northern Irish actually want then?
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/626629.jpg)
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Originally posted by Swoop
Why on earth should 2 people hate each other cos they're part of different religions. Go figure.
That's really what all religions are based on. "Do what we say, and you'll come out ahead of everyone else".
It looks like the chechens let the children go.
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Nashwan compared the IRA to Islam as a whole. He he also made a comparison between Christianity and the Islam. Terrorism that comes from Islam is directed at the entire world. What comes out of Ireland is directed at you Brits for being Bastards going back a long time.
Thats the point of my last post.
Sympathize with terrorists? ok what ever but lots of folks "sympathize" with the Irish. After all, they have been a great part of America.
Dowding, don't go stretching the truth as if I said the victims of the IRA asked for it. It was your government and its policy toward the Irish over the centuries that lead to their Hatred.
Your government created the conditions in which this type of hatred festered. Don't cry foul when the dog bites you.
As for you Brits who keep trying to equate the IRA with Islamic terrorists that is nothing but roadkill and you know it.
By your logic, the WTC victims deserved to die because of what Western civilization did a 1000 years ago in the crusades.
Hardly, but its your twisted logic that lumps what happened at the WTC (and other acts of violence by Islam) and claim its is equal to whatever the IRA has done. You also never mention loyalist violence.
The IRA don't threaten me or the world.
How many Brits did the Irish murder, rob, enslave etc over the centuries?
The Irish never invaded your island, in stilled themselves as lords and masters and killed you when you resisted.
How many Palestinians did the Israelis kill in the last few decades?
I would support an independent Palestine. The Isrealis have killed far more of them then the other way around.
How many Chechens did the Russians kill in the last few centuries?
A fundamentalist Chechnia would be a huge threat to the region. We would end up with a bunch of Afghanistans from which the real terrorists would strike out at the world.
I hope the Russians crush them.
None of your comparisons hold water.
Swoop are you replying to my post or to what Dowding or Nashwan said??
Because there is very little in your post that relates to anything in my previous reply.
My post was in reference to Nashwan who tried to equate IRA violence with the violence of radical Islam. The threat of fundamentalist Islam is far greater and effects way more people. The IRA are a regional threat.
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What comes out of Ireland is directed at you Brits for being Bastards going back a long time.
Oh of course! It's all my fault! Me personally! I was born in 1978 and am supposed to be held responsible for every atrocity from Bloody Sunday to the Battle of the Boyne!?
Thanks Wotan, for pointing that out, mate. If I ever am ever unfortunate enough to be maimed by a paramilitary bomb, as I lie there bleeding to death trying to work out where my legs have gone, I'll just have to remember that I'm British and therefore guilty of every atrocity ever committed by my ancestors. Thanks!
Your government created the conditions in which this type of hatred festered. Don't cry foul when the dog bites you.
There you go again. So by your twisted logic we have to put up with the crap the IRA and their ever so heroic pals did over the last 30 years? In your eyes, we should just sit back and suck it up.
Hardly, but its your twisted logic that lumps what happened at the WTC (and other acts of violence by Islam) and claim its is equal to whatever the IRA has done.
They are exactly the same in nature. Crimes of hate born out of perceived injustice.
BTW Islam didn't commit the WTC attacks etc, in the same way Christianity didn't plant the Omagh bomb. Their followers did. Moreover, people of the organisation that planted the Omagh bomb were given free passage in the US for over 2 years.
You also never mention loyalist violence.
You started this by displaying your ignorance of the whole situation, in an attack on British policy in Northern Ireland and stating it gave rise to Britain-hating mentalists. You want to discuss Loyalism, where do you want to start? I would have thought they might have told a few things at that British Nationalist Party 'lecture' you attended.
The IRA don't threaten me or the world.
The IRA are a regional threat.
I beg to differ and your own government disagrees with you:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1505020.stm
The Irish never invaded your island, in stilled themselves as lords and masters and killed you when you resisted.
Yet again, you really ought to check your facts. Irish mercenaries served with just about every Scottish army that invaded England.
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Islam is not a religion of peace..its a cult of violence. Just ask the Armenians, Greeks, Serbs, Indians and the many millions of poor souls that have been butchered since Mohammed left Arabia and spread his cult. People that say Islam is peaceful are ignorant. Go to the library and do some reading-stop repeating CNN Sound-Bites.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
I pretty much dislike all militant fanatics. :)
Yea !! down with Wellstone.... oh wait I thought you said minnesota fanatics ;-0
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Wotan,
merely trying to let you know what the modern situation in Ireland actually is.
Forget the past, what's happening right now is that the British are keeping the Catholics and Protestants from murdering each other, putting up with IRA attacks and, worse still, people who are ignorant of the situation telling us that we should get out of Ireland. If we do, it'll be a warzone. It's really that simple. Read some of the reports of the stoning of children that happend last year. And I dont really know another way of saying this again asside from in block capitals so please forgive me:
THE MAJORITY OF NORTHERN IRISH *WANT* TO BE A PART OF GREAT BRITAIN.
So quit tellin us to get out of Ireland, it'd be like us telling you to get out of Hawaii cos you're a foreign invader and shouldnt damn well be there. The Irish want us there, well most of them anyway, cos they know what'll happen to them if we left.
Now as for comparing the IRA with Islamic fundamentalists.....well you cant really, but you *can* compare terrorists and terrorists.
When the bomb goes off you dont give a crap who planted it or what they want, you just want to get the blood off you.
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/626629.jpg)
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Nashwan compared the IRA to Islam as a whole.
No, I didn't.
I was responding to the ironic comment "Islam is a religon of peace"
I was merely pointing out that a lot of atrocities have been carried out, recently, in the name of Christianity, both catholic and protestant varieties, and pointing out that doesn't stop Christianity being a religion of peace.
He he also made a comparison between Christianity and the Islam. Terrorism that comes from Islam is directed at the entire world. What comes out of Ireland is directed at you Brits for being Bastards going back a long time.
No, most Islamic terrorism is directed against people they think are oppressing Muslims, be it the West for supporting Israel, the Russians for not giving in to the Chechens, etc.
Just like NI, religon is one of the focus points, not the underlying cause.
Your government created the conditions in which this type of hatred festered. Don't cry foul when the dog bites you.
So Israelis can't cry foul when a bomb goes off? Americans can't cry foul for the WTC, because it's America that enables Israel to oppress the Palestinians.
At least the Muslims have a current grievance, rather than the Irish who base their terrorism on events that finished 80 years ago.
Hardly, but its your twisted logic that lumps what happened at the WTC (and other acts of violence by Islam) and claim its is equal to whatever the IRA has done. You also never mention loyalist violence.
I mentioned Loyalist violence.
The WTC and what the IRA have done ARE equal. Not in scale, not in methods, but in the effect they have on peoples lives.
It doesn't really matter to the relatives wether their loved ones were killed when a plane was flown into a building, or when a car bomb exploded outside a shop.
In levels of ruthlesness, and contempt for human life, the IRA are every bit a match for Islamic terrorists.
The IRA don't threaten me or the world.
Ah, that's the difference.
Muslim terrorists are evil because they threaten America, Irish terrorists aren't because they threaten Britain.
The Irish never invaded your island, in stilled themselves as lords and masters and killed you when you resisted.
Yes they did.
The Irish used to raid western Britain even during the Roman times. After the Romans left, they invaded many times, often in concert with the Picts and Saxons. They set up Kingdoms in Wales and Cornwall and Scotland.
All of Europe has a history of wars with their neighbours. What's remarkable about the Irish isn't what happened to them, most populations of conquered kingdoms were treated much worse, it's that they still bear grudges for events that happened hundreds of years ago.
My post was in reference to Nashwan who tried to equate IRA violence with the violence of radical Islam.
No, I tried to equate terrorism with terrorism, and to point out that Islam is no more, and no less, a religon of terrorism than Catholicism is.
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Originally posted by 28sweep
Islam is not a religion of peace..its a cult of violence. Just ask the Armenians, Greeks, Serbs, Indians and the many millions of poor souls that have been butchered since Mohammed left Arabia and spread his cult. People that say Islam is peaceful are ignorant. Go to the library and do some reading-stop repeating CNN Sound-Bites.
LOL ...
Every cult - like christians, jewish, islamic or whatever has been abused i history for crimes.
Just look how many people were killed in the name of Jesus Christ.
If you are consequent you have to blame every religion as a stupid cult.
But religions are useful.
Most people cant live with the thought that their existence will end one day with their death. So they hope for something after death. Like a paradise or whatelse.
And by believing these things they manage to live on - so I think religions - without any exception - are doing a good job.
They give hope and also an ethical moral codex.
The problem is that every religion was abused by fanatics in history.
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Your a moron babek...when Mohamed emerged from arabia how do you think he converted so many people so fast? You got a choice-your head or convert. Simple as that. I never saw Jesus leading an Army intent on conquering the world. Ya-a lot of people have died in the name of Jesus. I say a lot more would have died if IT WASN"T FOR CHRISTIANTY IN THE WEST. I have traveled extensivly in the Moslem world so believe me when I say that there is a fundamental lack of respect for all living things in the moslem world. Islam is a violent cult with over 1 billion strong. The world would have been a much better place if Mohammed and his army would have been extinguished before they ever left arabia.....
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Originally posted by 28sweep
Islam is not a religion of peace..its a cult of violence. Just ask the Armenians, Greeks, Serbs, Indians and the many millions of poor souls that have been butchered since Mohammed left Arabia and spread his cult. People that say Islam is peaceful are ignorant. Go to the library and do some reading-stop repeating CNN Sound-Bites.
Sad, another near-illiterate that insists on proving that he knows as much about Islam as he does about the interior of a library...
Which of course is virtually nothing. It's a shame that after 9/11 the few deranged xenophobists that saw the Islam (and every other non-western religion/culture/movement for that matter) as a threat have been joined by many more simpletons who've never even laid eyes on a koran, let alone studied it enough to judge the contents.
How many muslims do you know? How often have you discussed the nature of true Islam with them or other people with proper knowledge?
Ignorant people like you, who are always quick to judge and are driven by their prejudices rather than knowledge of facts, are the cause of 95% of problems in this world, and that's a very conservative estimation...
EDIT: BTW Don't you think your sig should have stated: 'Too Lazy to Read, Too stupid to Learn'??
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Your a moron babek...when Mohamed emerged from arabia how do you think he converted so many people so fast? You got a choice-your head or convert. Simple as that. I never saw Jesus leading an Army intent on conquering the world. Ya-a lot of people have died in the name of Jesus. I say a lot more would have died if IT WASN"T FOR CHRISTIANTY IN THE WEST. I have traveled extensivly in the Moslem world so believe me when I say that there is a fundamental lack of respect for all living things in the moslem world.Go to Egypt and watch as they whip and beat donkeys until they are worked to death in the streets. Go to a poor Christan country and you will not find find this. Islam is a violent cult with over 1 billion strong. The world would have been a much better place if Mohammed and his army would have been extinguished before he ever left arabia.....
Thats total and utter roadkill.
So what would you do?
Convert them? To what?
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Thud...u too are a left-wing babling moron. I have lived in Egypt, Iran, and Saudi Arabia. I know dozens of moslems and have studied this subject on the university level. Most importantly, some of immediate family members where victims of Islamic purges in the Caucasus.
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Originally posted by 28sweep
Most importantly, some of immediate family members where victims of Islamic purges in the Caucsses.
Well, that changes everything, now I'm convinced that you aren't biased at all. That's a very strong base for an objective view.. LOL
And you being some sort of christian extremist (deducted from your pathetic raging about how christianity is so much better etc.) definately makes you someone who's statements we should take seriously.
Thud...u too are a left-wing babling moron.
Hmm, so now anyone who does not share the ridiculous opinions you have on Islam is left-wing, you are truly a confused and simple person... sad
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@28sweet:
So the best thing would be that you and those who want to eliminate evil cults build camps where all the evil cultists could be put in and exterminated.
In the name of better future these cultists of evil should be killed as fast as possible.
Maybe its also cool to put in these camps all these lefties and all other perverts - like homosexual.
And dont forget all the other people you condemn collectivly because of their religion or whatelse.
Finally you can put over the gates signs with "ARBEIT MACHT FREI" and put on your great looking black uniform with the silver skulls.
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Thud and Babek ...I'll tell you what. If you don't think Islam is backwards and violent-I'll invite you to Saudi Arabia. All three of us will meet Riyadh. I still got some contacts there. We'll set up an experiment. You guys will try shoplifting in the Suke (market). Sounds good-right. When you get caught you will be rushed through an Islamic "trial" where you will be found guilty. On Friday both of you will be forced to put your hands on a chopping block where a man with a sword will chop your hand off. Your screams will not be heard over the cheering crowd. Oh ya-medical attention-there will be none. Don't believe me?? I've been there and have seen it. Still don't believe it-go to Amnesty International web site and look under Saudi Arabia. Oh-one final comment. You won't actually get your hand chopped of because you are both from European country's. They only chop the hands, feet, or even heads of TCN's. TCN stands for third country national. Indians, Philippiano's etc. get the chop treatment. Because you are white you will probably just get deported. Then you can go back to your left-wing life style's….you know sipping coffee and complaining about Americans………..
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Well you must be used to it in your little miserable life but once again you've completely missed all of the points made:
There are more muslims who'll say that the judicial system as used in S-A and Pakistan a.o. is a misinterpretation and disgrace of true Islam than there are supporters of it. Therefore yoúr little anecdote does not add any value to this discussion. Neither does your conclusion that S-A squanders its principles of equal justice to appease its foreign (business) relations, I'd bet my life that there is no country who doesn't to a certain extent.
Finally I must congratulate you on achieving a level of predictability almost surpassing your stupidity: your beliefs were questioned by others and immediately you use your painfully memorized standard answer: they are 'lefties' and anti-American. Tell me, what was said that was in any way anti-american?
This whole thing perfectly illustrates why you're a severely limited narrow-minded moron and I'm not as much a moron as yourself:
Your little world is divided in black-or-white, good or bad etc. Very convenient for someone with such limited intellectual capabilities as yourself but nonetheless hardly realistic. Normal people are not anti or pro-american per sé, they form an opinion on certain issues and let that reflect on their general feeling about something. I generally am very supportive of the actions, politics, opinions and feelings of the US and sometimes I disagree with some. That does not make me anti-american, it merely means that I don't agree for a full 100% with some official policies or opinions ventilated by americans, and that is not a bit different with any other country in the world, only that the amount of subjects I agree on with it may vary.....
So you see, a little bit of cautious refletion and open-mindedness before speaking out on something doesn't hurt you at all.
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Typical Liberal...please get off your snooty soapbox thud. Your from a country who's claim to fame is legal hookers, herion and hash...............Long live Che Guevara
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Well, your knowledge of the world seems to be as limited as your spelling.
And thanks for using the word 'liberal', I just won a bet over here, remember what I said earlier: 'predictable'.
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@28sweet
Its nice that you think that you are an expert in Islam just because you saw an execution in Saudi Arabia.
When I was in Egypt, Bahrein, Oman or Iran I didnt felt threatened - instead I met as nice people as I met when I was in other countries like Canada, the USA, France, UK or Germany.
I dont care what religion anyone or what race or skin colour he has.
And I am not able (like you) to condemn people because of their religion. Maybe the education in Germany worked - so today we stopped to hate people just because they are jews or of another religion...
I also dont believe in the sense of condemning whole collectives because of religious or racial definitions.
Every nation and every religion has its fanatics, criminals and crimes. There is no exception.
But also every religion has done great things which were a benefit for humanity and its evolution and development.
Also without any exception.
If you continue to condemn a whole religion in general you become a fanatic.
Are you really unable to see that you have become exactly the same fanatic who demands the killing of an ethnical or religious group like the fanatics you are hating so much ?
I am really sorry for you and I hope that you will find a way out of this religious fanatism.
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Hey Thud...bro-take off your wooden shoes-get off your bicycle...there is a nasty world out there .......
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Are Christian militants from Europe or America infiltrating Saudi Arabia, Yeman, Egypt..etc etc Killing sinning muslim women and children by crashing planes into buildings or using carbombs in crowded markets or blowing themselves up on packed buses in the name of God?
Are Muslim militants from Islam infiltrating Isreal, Europe, America..etc etc Killing sinning Christian women and children by crashing planes into buildings or using carbombs in crowded markets or blowing themselves up on packed buses in the name of God?
Is Islam as violent today as it was 2000 years ago?
Is Christianity as violent today as it was 2000 years ago?
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This century was marked by several large conflicts in which nations considered predominantly christian slaughtered eachother on an unprecedented scale.
Has christianity become less violent than 2000 years ago?....
And sweep, thanks for proving all my points and all my most negative assumptions about you, thank you so very much!
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Thud...God-your a typical left-wing moron. Your educated no-doubt. You think you know it all-but you don't. Christians have slaughtered each-other on an unprecedented scale? Unprecedented scale??? Unprecedented scale by your Left-wing Euro-centered education. You must be referring to WWI maybe? or WWII ?? Hitler was not the first to perpetrate genocide my friend. He was just the most efficient. The Turks murdered millions of Greeks and Armenians in the late 19th early 20th century. God-they still are finding skulls in Turkey today...millions and millions. Did this count in your Unprecedented scale. Or how about the million or so Hindu's killed by Moslem's in the 1950's..did you forget them? How about the conflict in Sudan ragging today? Did you forget them? Why do you think Europe is mostly Christian my liberal friend? I'll tell you why..because Moslem forces were defeated on the battlefield. These weren't missionaries-they were thugs that your fore-fathers rightly defended themselves against....now look at yourselves.....pathetic…and BTW. Saudi Arabia is not just a Moslem country. IT IS THE MOSLEM COUNTRY. IT IS THE COUNTRY THAT ALL MOSLEMS MUST VISIT IN THEIR LIFE-TIME. IT IS THE CENTER OF ISLAM. IT IS MECCA, and MEDENA…IT IS THE LEADER OF ISLAM…..IT IS A VILOENT BACKWARD COUNTRY THAT IS A THE FORE-FRONT OF A VIOLENT BACK-WARD RELIGION.
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Most people cant live with the thought that their existence will end one day with their death. So they hope for something after death. Like a paradise or whatelse.
That's because most people are handsomehunkes.
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Such acts has no excuse. That is no doubt. I hope some solutions are found, and no innocent blood are spilled.
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Lets see here, we have dead Muslims and dead Russians, what's the problem again?
Definitely a win-win situation.
Lonz
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Originally posted by DmdBT
Lets see here, we have dead Muslims and dead Russians, what's the problem again?
Definitely a win-win situation.
Lonz
I guess I'll be the first.
diddly YOU, amazinhunk.
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Well, from your previous postings I already understood that you aren't exactly the brightest of lights. more of a broken bulb to be honest and therefore I'll try to explain...again.
I wrote 'unprecedented' and that single word sparked of another incoherent ranting speech from you. Let's say you put aside your emotional ties to certain events that came up in this discussion and about which you obviously feel very strongly and look at the facts. For example, regarding scale the most 'significant': the Turkish genocide, the more reliable estimates vary between just below one till about 1,5 million casualties including those slain before the seizure of power in 1908 and in the 90's of the 19th century. Hardly comparable to the approx. 55 million of WWII, eh?
And if you should decide to do something entirely new, live an experience you've never had, you could go to the local library and apply for membership. Then you could borrow an English dictionary and look up the meaning of 'unprecedented scale', then you would notice that, combining what I wrote up here and what I cited below, you were not reading properly, let alone making any sense in the reply.
You stated:" Unprecedented scale by your Left-wing Euro-centered education. You must be referring to WWI maybe? or WWII ?? Hitler was not the first to perpetrate genocide my friend. He was just the most efficient. The Turks murdered millions of Greeks and Armenians in the late 19th early 20th century. God-they still are finding skulls in Turkey today...millions and millions. Did this count in your Unprecedented scale."
Taking the numerical difference between 55 and 1,5 mil into account, the former was indeed a genocide on an unprecedented scale because regarding the scale it was unprecedented, i.e. never preceded by an equivalent. Now you understand what unprecedented scale means?
As for your moving plea for my forefathers who defended Europe against the Muslims, in those times Europe was a retarded, barbaric society compared to the Eastern and Arabian worlds. Both in the scienctific and social sense. And those 'thugs' who invaded us were the same who defended their homes from other thugs who held crusades to take their land, or were the pillaging and murdering crusaders any better than the Turks doing the same? Even someone as biased and narrow-minded as yourself should recognize that there are always two sides to a story and the truth is inevitably in or near the middle.
BTW, 'Left-wing' in your first sentence, you sure keep the money coming. LOL, Simpleton
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Lonz,
That may be one of the stupidest posts I have ever seen in here. Easily one of the most tasteless. How sad for you.
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evil dmbt.. just evil ;)
To throw my .2 perks in...
I believe that islam is a religion that works like the well-known pyramid scams. It keeps certain few up top controlling the vast majority of the population, both economically, militarily and most powerful of all, their beliefs.
And its not a new idea either. Christianity had the same system going on. Worked damn well all throught the Middle Ages, with the church on top.
However, somewhere along the way the church lost its power over the masses. What did it? M.Luther? Byzantine Rome? Henry the 8th? Industrial Revolution? The Age of Reason? Its populace spreading across the globe so fast it became impossible to keep a tight grip? Or maybe the church's own hipocrisy and double standards fell on their heads?
Who knows! But the fact remains, once the church was swept off the podium of power, the civilizations once under their power made a U-Turn from barbarism/feudalism into the highway of progress and enlightment and became what they are today.
However, Islam is still stuck way back in the middle ages. It keeps its own population oppressed through BELIEF , reinforced by social structures (mostly dictated again, by belief) and rewards those the brute use of force to protect such a system (yada yada you know, die in battle for allah and go to heaven with 70 virgins or something like that). And its still like that.
A people who once lead the enlightened world (inventors of the zero and algebra!) are now nothing more than throwbacks in all areas except having the priviledge of sitting on oil.
Sad.
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Malaysia,
Look at the economy, culture and accomplishments of this Muslim country and then tell me again how Islam is in the middle ages.
Dam! You guys just insist on generalizing a billion people into your little pigeonhole. Wake up and smell a book for krise sakes.
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Thud,
I thought that you Dutch where more progressive than that…I mean I hear so much about your educational system over-there-but obviously you didn’t learn a damn thing. You have a case against you teachers…you should sue them for not doing their job. I’ll be your star witness in court. I have a couple points to make:
1) With regard to the crimes of the Ottoman Empire. First of all, your at least right about the numbers: 1.5 million is a about right for the Armenian Genocide. What about the Greek numbers? What about the Serbs, Bulgarians, Hungarians, hell all of East Europe. Give me the dead, wounded, displaced…enslaved etc… Please dig up those numbers. Oh ya, and if the Ottomans wouldn’t have been stopped at Vienna in 1529…you my friend would be praying 5 times a day to Allah. You’re a complete moron if you think the Ottomans were defending themselves. That was a barbaric-ultra-aggressive empire. 55 million dead in WWII was not unprecedented my friend.
2) Please comment on the activities of Mohammed when he and his Armies emerged from Arabia in 600 AD. Here is the fundamental deference between Islam and Christianity: Islam was spread almost entirely through warfare. In fact, Mohammed actively led armies into battle-Jesus did not. Mohammed was, in fact, wounded in battle. I’m no expert in the Bible but I don’t recall Jesus leading Army’s into battle. It is impossible to count the millions upon millions of lives that were destroyed as a result of this. WWII was unprecedented…I doubt it.
3) Please comment on Islam’s failure to co-exist with other religions peacefully where Islam is the dominant religion. Saudi Arabia (the only country on Earth where there is no official Church and where 2 Filipino men were recently be-headed for setting-up a Christmas-Mass), Egypt, Nigeria, Ethiopia, Sudan, Turkey, etc…etc..etc.. the list goes on and on. In all of these countries-persecution of Christians is nothing short of sport. Thousands and Thousands are killed yearly in violence against Christians. Please comment on this.
Islam is a religion of peace-hardly. Even you revisionist-liberal nut’s can’t hide from that.