Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: jarbo on October 25, 2002, 01:50:13 AM
-
For one week only........
A special setup to utilize the late WWII
plane set (mostly). I hope you enjoy it.
THE FIGHT FOR JAPAN
The Soviet Union and the U.S are clashing over ownership of Japan. The Soviet Union
launched a surprize invasion into mainland Japan. The American and British are
attempting to retain a foothold on the south tip of the Island.
The left side of the Perdonia Map will represent Japan.
Bases to the right of the two rivers will be flight disabled for both sides and
represent the Pacific Ocean. Two Carriers CV10 & 14 represent two U.S. task
groups operating in the Sea of Japan. If captured they will become destoyers
for other side. CV35 & 44 will be flight disabled for both sides (destroyers only)
The ME262 will represent the Mig15 and be perked to represent limited production.
--------------------
North Japan - Soviet Union (Knight)
LA7
YAK9T
YAK9U
ME262 (5 Perks)
IL2
--------------------
South Japan - U.S./British (Bishop)
P51D
SpitXIV
Tempest
F4U4 (Carrier Only)
B26
A20
--------------------
Both Sides
C47
M16
M3
Flak
LVTs
PTs
Pnzr
Jarbo
CT Staff
-
Thanks but no thanks. :(
-
looks cool to me...
be interesting to see how all teh late war planes truly stack up against each other.
you may wanna add the fw190d9 to represent the spit22?
i recall seeing a plane that looked strongly like the d9 in the korean war, but can't recall off hand what it was.
-
Should be interesting...
I think the Hog-C saw a lot of action in the forgotten war. It should be a slow dog compared to the rest of the CT pack this week.
eskimo
-
should there not be jets for both sides?
-
As i understand it, the north koreans had the Mig15 in production and in theater en-masse well before the U.S. had the F86. I could be wrong, but i believe the twin mustang was a predominant dogfighter early on.
Jarbo
Shane, feed me more info on what plane the 190 is to represent (the tempest may be filling that role somewhat already)
-
looks good to me. What is your problem with it foxx? Just not interested in late war birds? I cant wait to crawl into that f4u4 and mix it up with the big guys.
-
Its the Mig-15. The Mig-19 was Vietnam era.
I would rather see a setup with no Jet at all, but the 5 perk point Jet for the N. Koreans doesnt bother me. In other words less Jets please not more, otherwise you have to enable them at both sides freely and it becomes a big Jet war, with all the prop a/c left in the hanger.
Btw the B-26 Invader in Korea was basically a hottened up A-20G. Its one of the few a/c in AH that actually flew in Korea. Would be good to see it in the setup. B-26 Marauder never saw action there, its the "other" 26 that flew in Korea. Its a common mistake.
Some info:
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/attack/a4/a4-8.htm
As for the Spitfire, it didnt see action in Korea:
"No Spitfires saw service in the Korean War, although No 2 Squadron of the South African Air Force trained on LF Mk IXs before taking its Mustangs to war. HMS Triumph was in Far East waters with No 800 Squadron and its Seafire F.47s on board however, and their first operation was a strike by 12 Seafires and 9 Fireflies on Haeju airfield on 3 July 1950. Because of their short range, the Seafires were frequently given the Combat Air Patrol task over the fleet. During the Inchon landings in September, Seafires flew armed reconnaissance missions and spotted for the bombarding cruisers. But, by the end of the month, No 800 Squadron had only three serviceable aircraft and no replacements were available in the Far East. The inevitable crop of landing accidents and cumulative airframe stress damage meant the end of the Seafire's operational life. Nevertheless, the squadron flew 245 offensive patrols and 115 ground attack sorties before HMS Triumph was replaced by HMS Theseus with its Sea Furies and Fireflies."
For info.
-
Originally posted by jarbo
Shane, feed me more info on what plane the 190 is to represent (the tempest may be filling that role somewhat already)
still looking, but some other intersting sites... seems the f6f-5 and tmb-3 were there as well.
http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/hist-ac/ac-korea.htm
apparently the hawker seafury... is this what the temp is representing?
and squire is correct... the "B-26" is the a26 invader which is pretty much a better A20g... which would be better used in the setup than the b26.
-
Originally posted by Shane
still looking, but some other intersting sites... seems the f6f-5 and tmb-3 were there as well.
http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/hist-ac/ac-korea.htm
apparently the hawker seafury... is this what the temp is representing?
-
I've just done a bit of research...
The Hog used in Korea was the F4U-5.
It had 2800 HP instead of 2000, like the F4U-4.
It also had 4 Hispanos, like the F4U-1C.
Obviously we don't have a Corsair like the Hog-5, but I think players should have a choice of getting the Korean War hog power plant (F4U-4), or the Korean War hog gun package (F4U-1C). Either one will be less of a plane than the F4U-5, and the C will be greatly outclassed performance-wise by the North Korean plane selection.
Thanks,
eskimo
-
It sounds as if hogs should be available at a few land bases as well:
http://www.flightjournal.com/articles/corsair/corsair2.asp
"Locked and loaded for Communist targets, an F4U carries 5-inch rockets, napalm and a full load of 20mm ammunition for the upcoming mission. At left is Capt. J.J. Geuss, and at right is Capt. George Kubal; both were pilots in the "Checkerboard" squadron that operated from Kangnung (K-18) at the time this was taken in 1951 (courtesy of J.J. Geuss via author)."
"An elaborately painted F4U Corsair from VMF-323 is in front of the old terminal building at Kimpo AB in late spring 1951. During its 35-month stint in Korea, the squadron operated from at least four land bases; its aggressive support for the UN ground troops is legendary (courtesy of W.C. Rockwell via author)."
"The Marine Corps operated four day-fighter Corsair squadrons during most of the war. One specialized squadron, however, flew at night, and its exploits during pitch-black nights over North Korea's mountains and valleys were well known throughout FEAF. The F4U-5N Corsair shown here was one of those night stalkers from VMF (N)-513. Note the radar pod on the tip of the right wing. This was taken in 1951 at Pohang AB South Korea (courtesy of John Corrigan via author)."
More hog stuff:
http://www.kotfsc.com/aircraft/corsair2.htm
"The first F4U-4 was delivered to the US Navy on 31 October 1944. The F4U-4 was powered by C-series Double Wasp engine. The installed model was the R-2800-18W, later replaced by the R-2800-42W. It had a war emergency power of 2,760 hp (2058 kW). A four-bladed propeller replaced the three-bladed one of the F4U-1. A chin scoop was added to the underside of the engine cowling. The F4U-4 could reach a speed of 450 mph (726 km/h). During the F4U-4 production, the cockpit was redesigned again. It now incorporated a flat, bullet-proof windscreen, a revised canopy, an armoured seat, and an improved instrument panel."
"The first post-war model, the F4U-5, was basically similar to the F4U-4. The air scoop under the engine cowling was removed, and replaced by two small scoops incorporated in the lower side of the cowling. Also, the outer wing panels were now fully covered with metal. The armament consisted of four 20 mm cannon, as in the F4U-4B. The engine was the 2,675 hp (1995 kW) R-2800-32W, with a variable-speed two-stage supercharger. The engine installation introduced a lowering of the thrustline by 2.75 degrees, which improved stability and forward view. The first XF4U-5 flew on 4 April 1946."
eskimo
-
For that matter a hypothetical Allies vs Russia fighting over Japan in 1945 would work too. USN, USMC, USAAF, RN and Commmonwealth AFs vs the Soviets. Korea is kind of a stretch.
-
The USAF DID have F-80's (Shooting Star) and F-84's (Thunderjet) operating in Korea earlier than they had the Sabres.
Also the Soviet side lacks any sort of useful bomber as currently set up.
J_A_B
-
Shane, yes, the Tempest is instead of the Sea Fury, basicly very similair planes but teh Sea Fury could roll from Carriers (I think).
Nice copy of a 190 wouldn't you say? They ALL envy Kurt Tank! :)
Btw everybody, I've heard from very trust worthy sources that the Ta152 saw action in Korea ;)
-
Excellent points squire. This setup does better match a U.S. vs Russia fight over Japan. I will re-label the Title. I was going primarily for a late war match-up Russian vs U.S./Brit and trying to add a plausible storyline. Yours is much more plausable for the given setup.
Shane good point on the B26, the site I visited that listed in in action was likely referring to the A26. I'll throw in the A-20 as a supplement, but will leave the B26.
I also left off the panzer by accident and will add it.
Eskimo, im not gonna add the Chog as the allies have a good variety to employ agains the russians. I would rather expand the russian planeset.
As for adding the F4Us to the land bases, they have a distinct advantage as only CV based plane in arena IMHO.
Jarbo
-
maybe the D9 can represent a later model yak or la or captured german stuff? or something? to keep the luftweenies happy. we all know they're quite used to flying something with their eyes closed and pretending it's something else anyway.
:D
it'll be interesting to see how the la7 stacks up against the perkies... altho' i'm sure most will opt for the 262 - blehhhhh.
oh and JAB was right, the russkies lack a truly usable bomber... by this time they were already underway in copying the b29...
perhaps some lend lease a20's or b26's? ju88's?
and for this timeframe of war, you'd definitely need f6f's and tbms... altho' the f8f would have been in service. :D
personally i find the korean setup more believable, due to russia and china basically giving the NK some second hand stuff and only allowing, at first, very limited amounts of mig's in NK hands, driven by russian and chinese pilots. but it's only semantics.
-
Originally posted by Shane
still looking, but some other intersting sites... seems the f6f-5 and tmb-3 were there as welL
Shane, I'm almost certain all the F6F's in Korea were F6F3K drones, filled with explosives. Kind of an early smart bomb guided to target by a A4D Sky Raider. However I could be wrong it's not a rare occurance.
Hey Jarbo this one will be very interesting.
-
we all know they're quite used to flying something with their eyes closed and pretending it's something else anyway
Uhmm, is this an insult to LW or has Shane started to understand what some LW whine about? ;)
-
Originally posted by Löwe
Shane, I'm almost certain all the F6F's in Korea were F6F3K drones, filled with explosives. Kind of an early smart bomb guided to target by a A4D Sky Raider. However I could be wrong it's not a rare occurance.
Hey Jarbo this one will be very interesting.
yep, by that time the f8f and improved corsairs were on the job, with the f6f's being regelated to reserve.
but maybe with the f6f's in the planeset as kami-drones, we can pull in some of the bish from MA.
:p
-
Originally posted by jarbo
Eskimo, im not gonna add the Chog as the allies have a good variety to employ agains the russians. I would rather expand the russian planeset.
Jarbo
Its still a hog though, just a variant. Since the actual Corsairs used in Korea had a combination of the best features of the 1C and the U-4, I think its a fair option. The F4U-5 had both the 20mms and 2800 HP. Players should be able to choose,
Do you want the Hispanos, or do you want the extra 800 HP. Either choice leaves you with less of a plane than the actual Korean War participant.
From the N. korean perspective, they are still fighting Corsairs, one is fast with decent guns, one is slower with nastier guns.
eskimo
-
I thought I had read that the F8F Bearcat never saw combat as a U.S. fighter? Anyone knowfor sure either way?
p.s. i wouldnt mind the C-Hog:D
-
Kudos to the CT staff for thinking out of the box, so to speak.
However, LA-7s, Yak-9s and 262s are pretty domineering against anything offered up by the allies. Of course alt is the tie breaker but in my short time online tonight I managed one sortie to 18k but was bounced by 262s which drove me down low only to be pounced by PNZR.
Will try again tomorrow night, most likely as N. Korean but will likely pass after that until Mig15s and F86s make their entrance.
:)
Nice work and I suspect many will find comfort in this Plane Set.
Until then,
-
The F8F Bearcat was on the way out by Korea, only serving in some reserve units. The F4U CORSAIR was the main prop bird with the Jet F9F Panthers in service as front line fighters.
The A-20 should have been given to the Communist side as a good represenitive of the Soviet made bombers in N. Korean service.
Don't recall ever reading about the N. Koreans fielding any LA-7's, all they had were the YAK-9's & MIG-15's for fighters.
Lastly my gripe is with the ack settings in here. I got a wing taken off at over 10K as I passed over a field. Seems the N. Korean's managed to get ahold of a few SA-2 GUIDELINES for their fields from the Ruskies. :rolleyes:
Major Jester, XO
325th FG, "THE CHECKERTAILS"
-
Originally posted by Yeager
Kudos to the CT staff for thinking out of the box, so to speak.
However, LA-7s, Yak-9s and 262s are pretty domineering against anything offered up by the allies.
i gotta disagree... at the time you were on it was more a #'s issue, imho, axis had 2:1 over allies... that's difficult in any setup.
however, i've flown both sides on and off today, and umm well managed to whack anything that wasn't green... except for the 262's which i could pretty much ignore. i think the la7 and yaks match up nice vs the "perkies"... however the perkies *should* also pretty much come out on the better end of an egagement...
YMMV...
it's a tnb wetdream, really, fats planes, fairly evenly matched, no one can run, and you can pretty much ignore 262's unless they're everywhere. honestly, the 262 is pretty useless as it's flown, it really can tnb to an extent in this setup.
it has been interesting to see how the la7 is stacking up vs the perkies.
-
The F8F was intended as a short range "dash" interceptor to counter Kamikazes that would come as the Allies closed around the home islands of Japan. It was phased out after the war (no need for it).
It never fired its guns in combat in WW2 or Korea. The F4U could carry a bigger load and with a longer range, as did the A-1 Skyraider.
F6F was not used either, not as a fighter.
Btw the first "Jet vs Jet" kill in history was a USAF P-80 downing a MiG-15 in 1950.
Regards.
-
Back in a week when this setup's over.
-
I'm with Chanter. Thanks, but no thanks on this one. I really think Target:Korea will satisfy all my Korean War curiosities when it comes out (and I can wait).
I have a hard time with substitutions that are a stretch, and the Me262 as Mig-15 is waaaayyy yonder past what I can handle.
Doesn't mean I don't love you CT CMs, but I would much rather
see WWII air combat with the planes we actually have. This one is just not for me.
.
-
Like Oboe said.
Interesting setup and thanks for the effort CM's but would rather keep it in WW2. There are plenty of set-ups available on that subject with the planes we have.
Miska's idea on another post would have been much better.
for the effort.
Major Jester00, XO
325th FG, "THE CHECKERTAILS"
-
Whats happened to the CT?
taken over by a bunch of people who obviously dont care about historical realism.
KOREA?? what a bunch of crap.
I used to like the CT but its got steadily worse with more and more gamey set ups.
At one time it was picking up with numbers but its back to the poor attendance and I think its because of dumb setups like this.
me262s are nothing like mig15s and thats reason enough to not do korea.
-
Originally posted by hazed-
Whats happened to the CT?
me262s are nothing like mig15s and thats reason enough to not do korea.
actually it's not korea, theychanged it to a kind of "what if" where russia and brits/yanks are fighting over control for japan.
the setup itself it what's interesting... for me anyway...
i mean, jeez it's nicely balanced in matchups and an opportunity to see how the late war speedsters stack up vs the "uber-la7". :)
i can't really see the whines about "non-ww2 planes" cuz they are *still* WW2 planes, lol. just consider the 262 a russkie ripoff, like they ripped off the b29.
temps, spit14's ponys did go after 262's yanno? it's still a "matchup" setting as is any other CT week's... i mean gee, there are "substitutions" made in CT setups all the time. so playing the "historical" card in the pure sense, makes no sense.
having said that... i like it... it's been interesting. as i said la7 and yak's *can* hold their own vs the "perkies" but a lot boils down to pilot skill.
i can tear up russian stuff in the perkies.... and conversely, i can kill the perkies in the russian stuff.
if this setup is showing me anything, it's simpy that the spit14 is overpriced in the MA. it struggles the most vs an la7. especially when a lot of the fghts are happening down in la7 alts. temps can *out turn* both yaks and la7's. so can a f4u-4.
-
Originally posted by hazed-
Whats happened to the CT?
taken over by a bunch of people who obviously dont care about historical realism.
KOREA?? what a bunch of crap.
I used to like the CT but its got steadily worse with more and more gamey set ups.
At one time it was picking up with numbers but its back to the poor attendance and I think its because of dumb setups like this.
me262s are nothing like mig15s and thats reason enough to not do korea.
That's a bit harsh, Hazed. I'm pretty sure they were going for a change of pace that would allow people to fly perk planes against each other without worrying about the cost. The CMs still care about the CT, and its only a week anyway.
I see it's been changed from the Korean War to reflect instead a 1945? invasion of Japan by the Soviets, and defended by US/RAF forces. So its a what-if scenario. One problem I see is that the Mig-15 didn't actually enter service until 1949.
-
Damn Hazed thats an awful and inaccurate thing to say. This setup was my idea and I am glad the CM picked up on it. Frankly many of us long timer AH guys, you included IIRC are complaining of AH getting boring and repetitive so this was my idea to have another scenario and have a new gameplay setup that was close to historical as possible but in a new refreshing way. All of the planes, or their later developments, were there in Korea except the Me262 and B26.
There were Yak9/Yak3
There were La9/La11
There were F4U4/F4U5
There was Il10
There was the Sea Fury
There were F51D
And possibly even late Griffon Seafires
The Me262 was added as the only jet as the Mig15 was vastly superior to any UN Jet available early and was a huge shock to the UN forces. I bet the speed and climb difference between Me262 and the allied prop perkies is probably even less than Mig15 advanatage over F80/F84.
So I find it curious that those who complain of AH getting boring are so hateful of this new concept. At least some of us are thinking about trying new things to make it interesting and not just complaing of being bored like old widows then hissing at any attempt by somebody to try something new.
Or do we want just another 109 vs spitfire fun fest, again, and again and again. Or how about the ever entertaing F4U vs Zero carrier vulch marathons?
Damn old women..... :D
-
For all its worth, I dont think its that bad. Pretty even match up. Good fights. I think its okay. Sure its not the south pacific, but you cant have cake every day.
-
, Jarbo, for trying something different. I've flown both sides of this one and enjoyed it all. I love my historical set-ups as much as the next guy/gal, but trying something different for a week is refreshing. This one is pretty balanced, IMO. What I've discovered is that I enjoy the combat in the CT more than the MA no matter what A/C I've got to chose from, thanks to the great folks who fly in there with me. Thanks, CT goers, for a fun weekend.
Sabre
-
I'm enjoying it and will enjoy others like it in the future. I have no idea how long it takes the CT Staff to set up one of these shindigs but, however long it is, I appreciate the time and effort.
-
Originally posted by Sabre
, Jarbo, for trying something different. I've flown both sides of this one and enjoyed it all. I love my historical set-ups as much as the next guy/gal, but trying something different for a week is refreshing. This one is pretty balanced, IMO. What I've discovered is that I enjoy the combat in the CT more than the MA no matter what A/C I've got to chose from, thanks to the great folks who fly in there with me. Thanks, CT goers, for a fun weekend.
Sabre
Agreed, on all points.
- oldman
-
Originally posted by Sabre
, Jarbo, for trying something different. I've flown both sides of this one and enjoyed it all. I love my historical set-ups as much as the next guy/gal, but trying something different for a week is refreshing. This one is pretty balanced, IMO. What I've discovered is that I enjoy the combat in the CT more than the MA no matter what A/C I've got to chose from, thanks to the great folks who fly in there with me. Thanks, CT goers, for a fun weekend.
Sabre
Jarbo,
on a highly interesting and (now) fun setup.
Quite honestly, I didn't enjoy my first day in this setup due to the presence of the Me 262. I didn't fully investigate the setup and mistakenly took up a P-51 last weekend. Needless to say, had a terrible time in the 51 against the LA-7s and 262s.
Since then, I've discovered the Tempest. What a beauty. Now I can hold my own against the Yaks, La-7s and to a lesser degree the 262. I'm now starting to get more kills than deaths/bails.
Only criticism is that the 262 should be perked at a higher level, perhaps 20 to 25 points; maybe even 50 points.
IMO, the 262 does not belong in this setup mainly because the allied side has no really effective aircraft to send up against it. Besides, this is supposed to be 1945, not 1951!:rolleyes:
Gonzo