Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: bj229r on October 25, 2002, 07:07:51 AM

Title: #@$#@%#@ paper bombers
Post by: bj229r on October 25, 2002, 07:07:51 AM
Like it isnt alREADY hard enough to hit stuff of importance with bombers.....as I can tell..takes about 3 rounds from a P51 to blow one up..much less merely damage it. I've had more occasions than I can count where a fighter crawled up low 6 (which should usually make a gunner drool) ....lit him up at 700-800...minimal damage...fighter walks in...blasts away..all 3 buffs just pieces falling to ground. The extra guns from the drones dont help very much..as lethality is so far less..rarely can all 3 planes be brought to bear on a bogey anyhow. I think a lot of fiters prolly have more toughness than 17...sigh
Title: #@$#@%#@ paper bombers
Post by: Wilbus on October 25, 2002, 07:28:36 AM
AH suffers from a very old Dammage modell by now IMO, been the same idea ever since it got out.
Title: #@$#@%#@ paper bombers
Post by: john9001 on October 25, 2002, 02:40:49 PM
how many times do we have to listen to " I LIT HIM UP  , BUT HE DIDN'T DIE" and "HE KILLED ME WITH ONE SHOT" ?

you have zee film , of course. zo zend it to zee peoples at HTC.
zay half vays to deal with zis.
Title: #@$#@%#@ paper bombers
Post by: Karnak on October 25, 2002, 02:47:02 PM
As part of our tests of the Mosquito's damage mode, J_A_B and I also tested the B-17G and Lancaster.

Hispano hits on the tail required to remove it:

Bf110G-2: 2
Mosquito Mk VI: 3
Lancaster Mk III: 14
B-17G: 17
Title: #@$#@%#@ paper bombers
Post by: Wilbus on October 25, 2002, 02:48:57 PM
14 and 17 hits DAMN much if all in tail, no paper bombers there that's for sure.

Did you test the P38, La7 and F6F????
Title: #@$#@%#@ paper bombers
Post by: CHENAULT on October 26, 2002, 10:04:54 AM
Hey Bj29r.....
I saw that you are from Roanoke. Im living in Denver Colorado now, but I grew up in the Star City. I miss it terrably. I lived in Salem, Cave Spring, and North county areas. I know this is silly, but I get a charge out of seeing people from home. Just yesterday, I scared a guy here in CO. He had a Charlottesville sticker on his back window and a UVA licence plate border. At the traffic light, I got out of my car, went up to him ,and introduced myself as a fellow Virginian. Nice fellow too...lol. I normally would not do such a thing in a major metropolitan area like Denver, for fear of getting blown away, but I felt safe in this case. Just wanted to say "too cool" and to a fellow VA:D :D :D :D
Title: #@$#@%#@ paper bombers
Post by: bj229r on October 26, 2002, 06:06:02 PM
Heh Chenault..actually I live in Bent Mountain...but it's not like anyone knows where THAT is. (like 15 miles south and UP)..and...no..I havent scientifically TESTED all sorts fighters..suffice to say..buffs (I fly 17's vast majority of time) blow WAAAAYYY too fluff'n easy. I assume HT figgered extra guns would offset and keep things somewhat neutral....not case.--its like shootin goons
Title: #@$#@%#@ paper bombers
Post by: devious on October 27, 2002, 01:43:28 AM
Blew the tail off a B-17 yesterday, with four hits from a Mk 108. Came in at 400mph from his right side. But that's 3cm grenades.
Title: #@$#@%#@ paper bombers
Post by: Innominate on October 27, 2002, 10:05:35 AM
Bombers in AH are most definitly not weak.  The problem most commonly seen is the damage carryover from one solid pass on one buff bringing down a whole formation.  This happens especially when the buff pilot has a bad connection, but also can when the attacking pilot does.  (I believe it's a lag issue, with damage being inflicted to a dead bomber being put onto whatever the pilot is in now)

Nothing comes close to the lanc/b26/b17 for durability.

Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
As part of our tests of the Mosquito's damage mode, J_A_B and I also tested the B-17G and Lancaster.


I'm curious(and too lazy to search for the thread) as to wether the results of your damage test matched mine.

I found that the mosquito is the only fighter to have a tail more durable than any other fighter.  Also that it would take a LOT more damage than any other fighter, except it would tend to burn at the point where another fighter would be dead.
Title: #@$#@%#@ paper bombers
Post by: bj229r on October 27, 2002, 12:57:03 PM
Heck..im not talkin about tail gettin shot off or somethin so mundane as that... 3 ENTIRE B17's explode in span of 3-5 seconds from attack via dead 6 from 1 plane. They heap weker now, as opposed to before the new-bomber patch, prohibitively so
Title: #@$#@%#@ paper bombers
Post by: hazed- on October 27, 2002, 07:50:58 PM
er i shot down 2 b26s with a single pass yesterday and i only hit one of them.

i shot maybe 80 odd ounds from a 190a5 which due to my piss poor shooting hit the middle of the left wing of the lead bomber about 3 times (3 hit sprites) and off came the wing.

looking back to see if i could loop over to hit the 2nd bomber i saw that too had lost the exact same wing at the exact same spot.

got the kill for both when i only hit 1.

thats a bug not the damage model and i suspect this is what is causing so much grief.


I still think we should have reduced lethality in buff guns but huge increases in durability in bombers.

This way we would see long battles with bombers and fighters and basically have longer fun.
The two ends of the scale are :

as a fighter you get a few hits to your machine and seem to lose a vital part and all that climbing to alt is wasted giving the pilot the hump! :)

as a bomber you get hit a few times on say , your lead bomber and all 3 of your bombers seem to go down in quick succession to what seem like short bursts.

As both players get totally pissed off why not adapt it slightly?

if your a bomber pilot and dont want to die so quick then you have to accept its the same for the poor guy who climbs to alt to defend against you when he'd rather be fighting figthers.
If youre a fighter pilot and want to be able to attack bombers without working for a position you have to accept the bomber pilot/gunner shouldnt have to put up with insta-death of all his planes.

theres a sound basis for having highly durable bombers and many accounts of how tough it was to shoot down attacking fighters as gunners.We have nothing like as difficult a time as a real gunner would due to perfectly clear veiws, no weight whilst moving guns, no freezing temps or slow traverse etc so I think it could be an acceptable compromise in the name of a more enjoyable fight.
It doesnt have to be stupidly unrealistic, just a little different to how we have it.
VOTE LONGER FIGHTS :)
Title: #@$#@%#@ paper bombers
Post by: bj229r on October 27, 2002, 09:00:14 PM
Thats the thing Hazed..they've alREADY reduced gun lethality a LOT in buffs (again..usually 17 in my case) ..AND reduced buff-tuff....buff-pilot has to give on both accounts already..if i had nickel for every la7 I pinged the crap of that still flew on to kill me--..
Title: #@$#@%#@ paper bombers
Post by: Innominate on October 27, 2002, 10:00:06 PM
Quote
Originally posted by bj229r
Thats the thing Hazed..they've alREADY reduced gun lethality a LOT in buffs (again..usually 17 in my case) ..AND reduced buff-tuff....buff-pilot has to give on both accounts already..if i had nickel for every la7 I pinged the crap of that still flew on to kill me--..


You're right and wrong.

An individual buff durabilty hasnt changed, nore has the damage or accuracy of the guns.

There are problems though, big ones, which make it seem this way.
[list=1]
  • The drones guns are 100% worthless unless you have a gunner.  The convergance is so close that if they're hitting, you're about to die anyways.
  • The damage carryover bugs, which have been detailed before.  Put enough rounds into the lead buff to kill all three, and all three will die.  Since 90% of the time, a buff is killed because of a good solid guns pass, there is often damage to spare, to kill the other buffs.
  • Three buffs present a MUCH bigger and MUCH less maneuverable target, without having any added firepower.(See above)
  • The most subtle, is the bias code in 1.10.  This is what causes planes to make small warps in the 1.5-1k yard range, as the bias code kicks in the enemy plane's position is instantly fixed to be more accurate.  With fighters this can be annoying, but with bombers, where that is the prime range to open fire, it is devastating.  (I _assume_ it's the bias code, it could be something else entirely, but the effect is the same)
Title: #@$#@%#@ paper bombers
Post by: Soviet on October 27, 2002, 10:42:50 PM
When they fix gun dispersion in the bombers then fine, tuffen them up.

A test was done with a B-17 ON THE GROUND.  At 600 yards the tail gun had a dispersion of about 16 feet (in AH it's 2 feet).  The waist guns were even worse.
Title: #@$#@%#@ paper bombers
Post by: Amboss on October 28, 2002, 03:10:08 AM
I was in a singular Ju88 and shot down a Spit that was spraying me from 500yrds. He took out my flaps, the radiator on one engine and the landing gear. I brought her home and landed the kill just fine.

Yesterday, again in a singular Ju88, I had a little turnfite with a p51 going on. He pinged me 10+ times before disengaging and caused no damage at all.

The Ju88 definetly isn't built from paper.

On another note, I've had this happen before that when you manage to cause massive damage on the lead plane of a buff formation, all three planes die.

-Amboss
Title: #@$#@%#@ paper bombers
Post by: bj229r on October 28, 2002, 06:48:27 PM
tell ye what....ill do a few runs in 17's tonite withOUT the drones...i used to typically get 2-4 kills before the big patch...was rare i couldnt at LEAST take out the first guy (unless its Voss..mutter mutter)...but noone can tell me lethality from buff guns hasnt been dropped..i SEE the flashes that used to disable a fighter..that now seems to have little or no effect
Title: #@$#@%#@ paper bombers
Post by: Kweassa on October 28, 2002, 07:30:51 PM
IMO the biggest problem is the freaky damage modelling.
 
 Somehow, the "bias" in updates gives out very strange results. For instance, when the AI driven drones are lagging behind, somtimes these drones show amazing capability to withstand concentrated fire. It feels almost as if the hits on the drones aren't registered at all.

 Other times, hits on the lead bomber which the player is controlling result in consecutive damages to the drones when it is shot down. I've tested this on the B-26 and found out it was true. I aimed only at the lead bomber, dumped about 50% of all ammunition on that single plane, and after it blew up, the second and third plane blew up consecutively as the pilot of the bomber was relocated.

 ...

 Coupled with the lacking DM, this probably adds the most decisive problems on the high bomber fatality rate.

ps) However, the individual bombers are tougher than any of the fighters. Bombers are only planes that withstands more than a single round of 30mms, other than the rare case of P-38s. And hitting the intended target with the bombers is not hard. It requires a long, steady bomb run, and that is all.

 
Title: #@$#@%#@ paper bombers
Post by: Urchin on October 28, 2002, 09:51:53 PM
Quite a few planes I've hit once with 30mm and had em live.  P47s, F6Fs, F4Fs, La7s, A6M5 (it caught on fire though).  Probably more but those are all I can think of off the top of my head.  The P38 is the only fighter than can take more than 1 30mm with any amount of regularity though, I'd say the La-7 is second in that regard.   I've hit more than a few of em 1 or 2 times and they haven't gone down.  Never seen any fighter take more than 3 rounds of 30mm though, seen bombers take 5-6 in one area and not die.
Title: #@$#@%#@ paper bombers
Post by: cajun on October 29, 2002, 09:16:26 AM
:rolleyes: this must be the 50billionth post about "he killed me in a few pings" :D

1st you have to remember, in the MA everyones flying Late late late war planes with 2-6 cannons and 50 cals.
 AH damadge model is old and needs work, but still if in RL the germans allways flew such heavily armed planes, ammo & guns maxed out I'm sure we'd have allot more bomber lost.

2nd, I find you do not nessicarily hear 1 ping for every round that hits you, you could have 3 or so MG rounds hit and only hear 1-2 pings, at least thats what i find.

2 nights ago in the CT (Korean war setup) I flew a formation of b26's with keyapaha gunning (and me as well since we were flyin 3 bomber formation) we shot down 1-2 LA7's damadged a 262 badly, another 262 made a few 6 passes and then a HO pass on us and we managed to land with what prolly would have been 3 bombers if I hadnt run into 2 hills b4 landing :D )
Title: #@$#@%#@ paper bombers
Post by: bj229r on October 29, 2002, 08:45:38 PM
Cajun..this isnt about the ol' "he kilt me ina few pings dogfight" thing--its nice that ya had a nice run in CT against whomever...but are ya extrapolating from that experience that all is same....or that is ISNT same..but it IS more realistic? Ive been flyin B17's as a majority of my runs for the nearly 2 years ive been flyin AH...and id like to hear some factual info about whatever computations go on in the server to determine that my 17 is gonna blow up into little pieces, or that the 5th  time i pinged the wooden La7, is it gonna blow up? And ARE those computations the same as they were b4 the new buff/norden model?