Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on October 25, 2002, 07:33:43 AM
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Muhammad had helped provide security for Nation of Islam Minister Louis Farrakhan's "Million Man March" in Washington, D.C., according to Leo Dudley, a former Marine who lived a block from Muhammad. National of Islam officials in Chicago had no immediate comment.
Why has the NOI refused all phone calls and refused to make a press release about one of their own?
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why hasn't any Islamic leader spoke out against this guy? WHy did so few speak out about 9/11?
why, because the majority of them agree with the "kill the infidel" doctrine the stone age, arse backwards, hate white america "religion" preaches
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"The Monster! The Monster! Kill the Monster!!!" shout the villagers, waving torches and pitchforks.
Man, its so damn hard sorting through all of the stone age, arse backward haters these days.
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are you saying that the "snipers" were not monsters?
lazs
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On Hezbollah) They call them terrorists, I call them freedom fighters. No one asks why they would do such a thing. Why would they do such a thing? What has driven them to this point? That's what the UN, the U.S. and Europe doesn't want to deal with because the Zionists have control in England, in Europe, in the United States and around the world. -- Louis Farrakhan at District Council 33 Union Hall, Philadelphia, April 22, 1996
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The President wants to talk about a terrorist named bin Laden. I don't want to talk about bin Laden. I want to talk about a terrorist called Christopher Columbus. I want to talk about a terrorist called George Washington. I want to talk about a terrorist called Rudy Giuliani. The real terrorists have always been the United Snakes of America. -- reparations rally, 2002
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"White people are potential humans - they haven't evolved yet."
Philadelphia Inquirer, March 2000
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"They [the Jews] are the greatest controllers of black minds, black intelligence. They write the scripts - the foolish scripts on television that our people portray. They are the movie moguls that feature us in these silly, degrading, degenerate roles.
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"The Jews have been so bad at politics they lost half their population in the Holocaust. They thought they could trust in Hitler, and they helped him get the Third Reich on the
road."
Saviours' Day speech, Chicago, February 1998
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Islam has akways been a force that dispels tyrants and tyranny, opression and exploitaion. Islam has always been a force that militates for justice.
--Louis Farrakhan, 1985
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"One rap song is worth more than a thousand of my speeches."
--Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan on the power of rap
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The Jews don't like Farrakhan, so they call me Hitler. Well,that's a good name. Hitler was a very great man. He rose Germany up from the ashes -- Louis Farrakhan, 1984
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No, Lazs. I see lots of monsters and lots of arse-backwards haters these days. That includes the sniper and it includes those that want to judge all practioners of a religion based on the actions of that religion's extremists.
The nation of islam is not islam, Rip. If you can make that distinction, and I suspect that you can and do, then my comments are not directed towards you.
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Originally posted by Lance
The nation of islam is not islam, Rip. If you can make that distinction, and I suspect that you can and do, then my comments are not directed towards you.
no but the leaders of Islam are suppose to represent their faith. Why do they have zipped lips if they do not condon the extremists of their faith? Besides scared about becoming a target themselves from one of their "faithful" followers, there is something very odd about the entire faith ..... most faiths have evolved, adjusted, grown with time. Not this backwards group - the faith nor its ppl.
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moslems have responded non-stop in the bay area- giving seminars about their beliefs that are open to the public and trying to distance themselves by making a lot of statements condemning the snipers.
look at the local level for a real response, clowns like farrakhan are like the moslem equivalnt of jerry falwell or benny hinn.
personally speaking i'll never take any religion seriously that makes you dress and eat a certain way or holds that you are superior because you follow it or one that has so many angry alumni, but that's just me- an i could be talking about any religion there really :)
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If you haven't seen/read of Islamic leaders condeming terrorism you just haven't bothered to look.
Muslim American Groups Denounce Terrorist Attacks (http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/islam/a091201.htm)
and: Mohammed Sayyed Tantawi, the grand imam of al-Alzhar University of Cairo, the
most prestigious of the Muslim world, told
the Italian newspaper Avvenire that the "killing of men, women and children is a
horrible and brutal action, which cannot be
approved by the monotheist religions nor by sane men."
and:
Sheikh Nasr Farid Wassel, Egypt's mufti, was more incisive: "We condemn and
deplore what has happened in the United
States against innocent civilians, as Islam condemns all forms of terrorism,
regardless of where it happens, and it prohibits
aggression against noncombatant civilians of all societies, because Islam is a
religions that offers peace and security to every
human being, regardless of his society, race, religion, language or color."
"At all times and in all places, Islam and peace are two sides of the same
coin," the Egyptian mufti concluded.
one more:
Muslim leaders denounce terrorism (http://www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/living/religion/3624962.htm)
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There goes MT clouding the issue with those damn facts. :mad:
Remeber MT, if you get in the way of a good hate fest...then the terrorists have aready won.
Keep on fighting ignorance and intolerance...terrorist lover.
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"At all times and in all places, Islam and peace are two sides of the same
coin," the Egyptian mufti concluded.
Heads, peace... Tails, Islam?
No that can't be correct:confused:
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Originally posted by Thrawn
There goes MT clouding the issue with those damn facts. :mad:
Remeber MT, if you get in the way of a good hate fest...then the terrorists have aready won.
Keep on fighting ignorance and intolerance...terrorist lover.
Facts? Didn't see Louis in any of those quotes...
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Originally posted by Oedipus
"Why has the NOI refused all phone calls and refused to make a press release about one of their own?"
They're trying to find something "white" about him first.
Oed
Or Jewish...
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I guess the white jewish media just isn't covering ALL the Islamic protest of the violence :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Facts? Didn't see Louis in any of those quotes...
I was responding to Eaglers post. I thought it had already been made clear that Farakhan was the head of the Nation of Islam, not a part of the mainstream religion.
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I think you'll find I'm equally in favor of Catholic Bashing (http://espn.go.com/ncf/columns/donnan/1447236.html).
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Eagler, were you referring to the sniper guy or Farrakhan when you said "spoken out against this guy?"
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Originally posted by Nifty
Eagler, were you referring to the sniper guy or Farrakhan when you said "spoken out against this guy?"
both
hate is hate
cracks me up when abortion clinic bombers (who usually blow up empty buildings) are put in the same class as the nutbags of Islamic "faith"
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Those islamic leaders should be wondering why their religion breeds hate and why most of the adherents of it live in poverty in represive states run by rich dictators. Rather then spewing the blather that thier religion is not about terror. Their relgion is changeing then. They better keep an eye on it.
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Originally posted by Eagler
both
hate is hate
cracks me up when abortion clinic bombers (who usually blow up empty buildings) are put in the same class as the nutbags of Islamic "faith"
They are in the same class.
Of course you remember that "sniper" that shot those doctors, don't you.
Lets see what the common words are in your sentence above.....
Bombers= Both Islam and Christian Nutbags
Blow Up Buildings= Both Islam and Christian Nutbags
Nutbags= Both Nutbags
"faith"= Both Islam and Christian Nutbags
You're right, how ever do they get lumped together.
Cobra
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Islam is a religion of peace.
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Farrakan... Falwell... whatever.
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what cobra said
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Farrakan... Falwell... whatever.
Farrakan:
Speaks out in support of blacks rising up and fighting the whites, Jews.
Falwell: Speaks out in support of whites rising up and fighting blacks...oh wait. Never mind.
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Eagler, thanks. MT was answering your question on 9/11 then. He didn't answer the question on why no other Islamic/Muslim leader speaks out against Farrakhan.
Come on guys, give MT some credit, he did show examples of what Eagler partially asked for.
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Originally posted by Cobra
They are in the same class.
Of course you remember that "sniper" that shot those doctors, don't you.
Lets see what the common words are in your sentence above.....
Bombers= Both Islam and Christian Nutbags
Blow Up Buildings= Both Islam and Christian Nutbags
Nutbags= Both Nutbags
"faith"= Both Islam and Christian Nutbags
You're right, how ever do they get lumped together.
Cobra
apples and oranges
both on the same isle in the grocery store but are totally different
can't remember the last Christian suicide bomber, hijacker, american hating, flag burner on the tele.
I guess the Islamics just have a "Higher" goal both spiritually and numerically <- as in dead non believers
:rolleyes:
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You ask and I deliver O conservative one! It may not be a flag, but will this do?
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How about all people practicing or claiming to belong or follow any religion are bad or were bad at one point in time.
That covers it I think.
instead of lumping them in two seperate groups with bad individuals in them.
It's alot easier to take those generalities and just make one big one.
The problem is, there are still the leftovers with no religion who do bad things as well..like rioters...but they are probably a mix of the religious and the non religous but they are a group so we can include them as well as bad.
how about employees, some of those have religion but now we're leaving out all the umemployed...so we'll lump them in as well, cause right now they probably have a whole lot of religion.
Now what?
Maybe now we should rate them in order of badness, with the 'them/us' factor. For all groups that we belong to are less bad by default cause we belong to them and they therefore aren't bad or as bad.
I would like to continue but my tool has fallen off.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
You ask and I deliver O conservative one! It may not be a flag, but will this do?
k - knew you'd throw the KKK in there :)
Now pls show me a Christian suicide bomber & plane hijacker pls O' lefty
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I am at the Patton point of thought. Kill all the radical ragheads and let God sort them out.
"Islam has akways been a force that dispels tyrants and tyranny, opression and exploitaion. Islam has always been a force that militates for justice.
--Louis Farrakhan, 1985 " As evidenced by all the Arab democracies.
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No, the christians are a little smarter (they've got that whole suicide clause in their bible - silly muslims took the 60 virgin option duh). They just herd the muslim men and boys into a warehouse and hiff grenades in. (yes I've been watching some stuff on the Bosnian massacres).
Pongo, religion doesn't really breed hate. Usually religion is a path chosen by someone full of hate - trying to deal with their anger, while that person is 'turning' to their chosen religion that hate tends to subside for a bit, then eventually the hate starts to boil back up again when their new religion doesn't answer all their 'questions'.
Religion is a primitive form of mystical government, its can't cope with the pace, the hate, and the weapons of the modern world.
Originally posted by Eagler
k - knew you'd throw the KKK in there :)
Now pls show me a Christian suicide bomber & plane hijacker pls O' lefty
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Know Muslims, No Peace
No Muslims, Know Peace
Lonz
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Originally posted by Eagler
k - knew you'd throw the KKK in there :)
Now pls show me a Christian suicide bomber & plane hijacker pls O' lefty
A challenge!
Well, how about Christian Terrorists... assuming the method of terror makes no difference.
Oklahoma City! - Blown up on the anniversary of the Waco siege. The Waco siege was all about Christian fringe groups fighting for their rights. So by definition OK City can be classified as a Christian Terrorist act in the same way that many Muslim terrorist acts are classified simply by the perpetrators or the movement (hating the US for basing arms in SA).
Then there is the IRA - Decidedly Christian (Catholic) and named a terrorist organization by the US Government.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
A challenge!
Well, how about Christian Terrorists... assuming the method of terror makes no difference.
Oklahoma City! - Blown up on the anniversary of the Waco siege. The Waco siege was all about Christian fringe groups fighting for their rights. So by definition OK City can be classified as a Christian Terrorist act in the same way that many Muslim terrorist acts are classified simply by the perpetrators or the movement (hating the US for basing arms in SA).
Then there is the IRA - Decidedly Christian (Catholic) and named a terrorist organization by the US Government.
IRA - they were happy killing each other in Ireland
OK city & Waco --- ur stretching it there
still no comparison - but the left would make a square peg fit in a round hole if they had to, they do it with j bout everything
TODAY - Islamic extremists are deadlier than Christian extremists by 10,000x to anyone but another muslim
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"TODAY - Islamic extremists are deadlier than Christian extremists by 10,000x to anyone but another muslim"
till they run out of non-muslims and then they'll go after those with the shortest beards or the ugliest wives.
You know, like the Inquisition? ;)
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Oklahoma City! - Blown up on the anniversary of the Waco siege. The Waco siege was all about Christian fringe groups fighting for their rights. So by definition OK City can be classified as a Christian Terrorist act in the same way that many Muslim terrorist acts are classified simply by the perpetrators or the movement (hating the US for basing arms in SA).
Sorry example. Just sayin.
Then there is the IRA - Decidedly Christian (Catholic) and named a terrorist organization by the US Government.
FAR more political than religious (now). You'll need to round off the corners of that square peg some more.
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Has the US army made any statement about one of their own?
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Well, just went to the US Army's and the Nation of Islam's official websites. And guess what neither has made an official press release about the "sniper".
I wonder why that is? I imagine it's because neither organisation feel responsible for his diddlying actions.
Rip, Eagler, funked...I'm so sick of you left-wing rutabagas. It's always someone elses fault. Blame the parent, blame the school, blame the religion. But oh no! Don't blame the criminal. Its never THIER fault.
That's the problem with society these days, NO PERSONAL RESPONSIBLITY, and bleeding heart liberals like you guys are the reason. Always willing to blame someone else!
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Isn't it ironic that those who seem to be the most staunch defenders of Islam in this thread (liberals) would be the first to be killed/repressed if Islam were to become the national religion here as in so many middle eastern nations? Or is it just me?
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Originally posted by AKIron
Isn't it ironic that those who seem to be the most staunch defenders of Islam in this thread (liberals) would be the first to be killed/repressed if Islam were to become the national religion here as in so many middle eastern nations? Or is it just me?
You have know way of knowing who would be first or last to be killed or repressed IF Islam became the state religion in western countries.
Besides it isn't so the point is moot.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
A challenge!
Well, how about Christian Terrorists... assuming the method of terror makes no difference.
Oklahoma City! - Blown up on the anniversary of the Waco siege. The Waco siege was all about Christian fringe groups fighting for their rights. So by definition OK City can be classified as a Christian Terrorist act in the same way that many Muslim terrorist acts are classified simply by the perpetrators or the movement (hating the US for basing arms in SA).
Then there is the IRA - Decidedly Christian (Catholic) and named a terrorist organization by the US Government.
Have to say this is a stretch, when was the last time a bishop or cardinal buttoned his pants long enough to issue a death warrant on an author of a novel, (Remember Salman Rushdie?) or proclaim Holy War? I mean since the 1500's.
Kind of interesting that the followers of Islam were the more noble ones during the dark ages, (saving ancient writings, advancing the sciences, etc) while the Christian world was oppressed by its own religious zealotry, and waging empty headed holy war against Muslims to control the holy land... now it seems the tables have turned.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
You have know way of knowing who would be first or last to be killed or repressed IF Islam became the state religion in western countries.
Besides it isn't so the point is moot.
I do know from observation of said middle eastern nations that tolerance of those unwilling to embrace religion (particularly theirs) is somewhat lacking. I also know that those who spout their ideals the loudest (liberals imo) draw attention more quickly. I also know that Islam is growing rapidly in western cultures. I'm not saying the sky is falling, just noting the irony.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Isn't it ironic that those who seem to be the most staunch defenders of Islam in this thread (liberals) would be the first to be killed/repressed if Islam were to become the national religion here as in so many middle eastern nations?
It's not THAT ironic that Islamic extremists have more in common with hard line conservatives than they do with liberals- in fact if hard line Islamic terrorists were to start posting here you'd be amazed at all the viewpoints you have in common- pro death penalty, womens rights, drug abuse- for all we know some of you guys ARE Moslem radicals. :D
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Imagine that...
I'm just as tolerant of islamic fundamentalists as I am of the conservative right. :D
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Farrakhan is a waste of space - taking up air a Possum could be breathing. :rolleyes: Ignore him for the bellybutton he is.
Lets move on to a subject worth discussing - say square vs. round man hole covers. :D
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Premise: You have a super-set of Muslims. This set contains all Muslims from Muhammed Ali to Osama bin-Laden.
Premise: You have a sub-set of that super-set called Muslim extremists.
Statement: Muslim extremists are a threat to the US.
Conclusion: Because Muslim extremists are a threat to the US, all Muslims are a threat to the US.
The above is a false agruement based on poor reasoning. Specifically, inductive reasoning.
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Is it true most muslims in the Africa, the middle east and greater Asia support the use of force (terror) against the western world?
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Geez, I would like to see some polls on that question. Off to google, but I'm not expecting much luck.
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Here are some numbers.
Looks pretty split. These are by nation, not by population.
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Here are some numbers.
Looks pretty split. These are by nation, not by population.
http://www.arabbankers.org/my/download/123800_c_sU127360_s_i151442/10NationsSummary.pdf
Only the Saudis don't actually like the American people.
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And here are some stats on Americans feelings on the Muslim world.
http://srd.yahoo.com/S=2766679:WS1/R=4/K=Polls+poll+%22Muslim+nations%22/T=1035658648/F=0cefaaa18c41bd0a20f3390266bc2140/*http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/03/04/u.s.muslim.poll
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Is this all you have an online poll? Is this how you form opinions? We seen it once how you love to quote and hyper-link yer arse off as if it's the gospel truth. Only to eat the big poop sandwich when someone who actually had an informed opinion contended that you didn't have a clue what you were talking about.
Would be nice to hear your thoughts for once instead of taking someone elses as your own.
Just an FYI, higher education does not icome from a Google search.
just in
XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX SAT OCT 26, 2002 13:09:48 ET XXXXX
Farrakhan addresses sniper arrest
Who: Louis Farrakhan
What: Press Conference to address Washington, D.C. sniper case
When: Saturday, Oct. 26, 2002 at 3 p.m. (C.S.T.) (4 p.m. Eastern)
Where: Mosque Maryam, 7351 Stony Island Ave., Chicago, Ill.
CHICAGO (FinalCall.com)--The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan will hold a press conference today to address the Washington, D.C., sniper case and the arrest of suspect John Allen Williams, a.k.a. John Allen Muhammad. The press conference will be held at 3 p.m. (C.S.T.) at Mosque Maryam, 7351 Stony Island Ave., Chicago, Ill.
Tape delayed audio/video webcast will follow press conference. For more information, log on to FinalCall.com.
Developing...
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Hmmm... looks like Thrawn was collecting information on opinions other than his own, MrOrange.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Well, just went to the US Army's and the Nation of Islam's official websites. And guess what neither has made an official press release about the "sniper".
I wonder why that is? I imagine it's because neither organisation feel responsible for his diddlying actions.
Rip, Eagler, funked...I'm so sick of you left-wing rutabagas. It's always someone elses fault. Blame the parent, blame the school, blame the religion. But oh no! Don't blame the criminal. Its never THIER fault.
That's the problem with society these days, NO PERSONAL RESPONSIBLITY, and bleeding heart liberals like you guys are the reason. Always willing to blame someone else!
ROFL!!!
It's always the liberal's fault...always. ;)
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Originally posted by AKIron
Isn't it ironic that those who seem to be the most staunch defenders of Islam in this thread (liberals) would be the first to be killed/repressed if Islam were to become the national religion here as in so many middle eastern nations? Or is it just me?
It's just you.
You really don't know personally many muslems, do you?
If you dd you'd realize that they are just as horrified as you are about the terrorist killings. Islam is a religion of peace. No where in the koran does it preach killing innocent people. It says to forgive and let God do the judgement. There is a section in the Koran that does say that when at war, one must struggle against his enemies, but the moment the enemy repents and asks for forgiveness, it is a muslim's duty to forgive.
Too many anti-muslims have taken that 'War' passage out of context and have posted only a partial passage (leaving out the 'when at war part').
There is a passage the muslim terrorist take out of context also. It is wrong to commit suicide. It is ok to die in battle and if one sacrifices oneself in battle he/she will be martyr'd.
Sorry, but to fly a plane carrying innocent civillians to kill innocent civilians is not to die in battle but to commit suicide. They will not be spending time in their heaven.
As a US citizen, I fear more my fellow citizens than an overseas Muslim terrorist.
I'll give some examples:
Oklahoma Federal Building.
101 California street.
San Ysidro.
Dallas Cafe.
Texas Tower.
Zodiak Killer.
Night stalker.
Ted Bundy.
Son of Sam.
Charles Manson.
Arsonists.
Lynchings.
Etc.
I think it would be safe that none of those killers were muslim extremists.
Do not get me wrong as I am not saying there is not a fringe extremist minority of 'muslims' (they are not true muslims) that want to harm innocent US civillians as there are. Painting most muslims as hate mongering, blood thirsty, anti-American terrorists for what a fanatical small fraction do is just plain wrong and being prejudiced. Just saying that the average american has to fear dying from his/her fellow citizen rather than from someone overseas. Heck let's not even get started by those idiots that can't even drive safely or properly.
I'd like you anti-muslim people just add up all the 'muslim' terrorists you know of and devide that number from the muslim population. That terrorist (include all the suicide bombers, hijackers, hostage takers, etc.) group turns out to be quite a small percentage of the whole muslim population. Hope you see that. BTW, that 'muslim' you see in the US wearing a turban usually will be Sikh or Hindu, not muslim.
Please stop with the prejudice as it is plain stupid and very un-christian.
Regards,
SaburoS
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I tell you guys: you better watch out for all the terrorists who murder in the name of non theism.
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Amen, Brother Santa!
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Originally posted by SaburoS
It's just you.
You really don't know personally many muslems, do you?
I know and have personally known a few. Other than their contempt for women (yes observed first hand) I'd agree that they were regular peace loving folks. However, most of those were US citizens and I think not typical of the majority of muslims found in other parts of the world, could be wrong about this but I don't think so.
However, I stand by my claim that they are not tolerant of infidels, that'd be many of you liberals and I think you might found yourself between a rock and a hard place in a strictly muslim nation, say like Afghanistan a couple of years ago. Especially those that insisted on freedom of speech. Care to argue this point?
Please feel free to prove me wrong perhaps by going to Pakistan and starting an equal rights for women campaign there. I'll take odds on your life expectancy. You succeed and I'll gladly admit to being prejudiced. Otherwise STFU.
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Originally posted by AKIron
I know and have personally known a few. Other than their contempt for women (yes observed first hand) I'd agree that they were regular peace loving folks. However, most of those were US citizens and I think not typical of the majority of muslims found in other parts of the world, could be wrong about this but I don't think so.
However, I stand by my claim that they are not tolerant of infidels, that'd be many of you liberals and I think you might found yourself between a rock and a hard place in a strictly muslim nation, say like Afghanistan a couple of years ago. Especially those that insisted on freedom of speech. Care to argue this point?
Please feel free to prove me wrong perhaps by going to Pakistan and starting an equal rights for women campaign there. I'll take odds on your life expectancy. You succeed and I'll gladly admit to being prejudiced. Otherwise STFU.
Wow such an intelligent retort. Are normally this ignorant and prejudice or are you just making an exception in this case. Your blanket portrayal of peoples you can only guess at in your warped thinking is really quite astounding. It is people like you espousing hate and prejudice based on ignorance that are mostly responsible for the terror going on. You chew on that awhile.
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Originally posted by OIO
"TODAY - Islamic extremists are deadlier than Christian extremists by 10,000x to anyone but another muslim"
till they run out of non-muslims and then they'll go after those with the shortest beards or the ugliest wives.
You know, like the Inquisition? ;)
I wasn't expecting the spanish inquisition! :D
Daniel
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Daniel - No-one was expecting the Spanish Inquisition!
I saw this wall in France a few weeks ago.
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I think it's very dangerious to make a sweeping statement like "All Moslims are dangerious to the US" I don't think this could ever be further from the truth. The Nation of Islam is a peace loving nation. Real moslims are jolly nice people IMO. The problem is the extreamists. They are the foaks like Osama and all the rest. People who read the religious books and texts and interpret them in a way that is less desirable. I am currently sitting next to a moslem guy and he is a really nice guy.
My main problem is that some Moslims see the extremists as representing "Real Islam" Unfortunatly where I am the impresionable young folk who are of the age of about 16-20 see and so some level imbrace people like Osama and the things he does.
The thing I happen to notice about extreamists is that 98% of them only have about 2% of the facts so are effectivly blindly following something that they don't really understand. The dangerious thing is that they will follow this so blindly that they will sacrifice anything to service this cause.
What Thrawn was saying about no personal responsability I agree with to some level. Although you also have to agree that if a person is going round blowing up buildings in the name of islam and ultimatly for a group of people. The blame does not totaly lie at the feet of the bomber.
Personaly My view on September the 11th was a total tradgidy and a horrific act. The same goes for the Bali Bombing. But it was also a total tradgidy for the Islamic and Hindu Cultures. Now anybody who follows these Faith or even originates from that part of the world is suspected and to some extent now is being persicuted in one way or another because some factions in the west are again, uninformed and take action based on fantisy not fact. This is wrong.
Personaly I think we have to do whatever it takes to remove the threat of extreamists and terrorists from our fair world. Not because of there beliefs but because of there potential actions.
Being British and living near an area where we have a large Moslim population I see what people like Osama and the other extreamists cause. On September 12th 2001 Young Moslims in cars drove up and down my College car park holding newspapers up to the windows shouting and chearing. Nothing was done.
This is just my opinion and I don't want to offend anybody. Other people will have differing views and opinions. I will except yours and I ask you to respect mine. I am not trying to tell anybody what to think or do. It's just my observation.
God Save us all
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Wow such an intelligent retort. Are normally this ignorant and prejudice or are you just making an exception in this case. Your blanket portrayal of peoples you can only guess at in your warped thinking is really quite astounding. It is people like you espousing hate and prejudice based on ignorance that are mostly responsible for the terror going on. You chew on that awhile.
Like so many, when you can't refute an argument you resort to name calling. Where do you see hate or ignorance in my posts? I treat women with respect and have never bombed anyone. Crawl back into your hole.
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I won't leave it alone. My original post pointed out the irony of the liberal left in the US being staunch defenders of Islam. They seem to assume they are the only ones that care about the rights of minorities. I pointed out that their tolerance of diversity would likely be squelched one way or another should the US become a Muslim nation.
Of course this is speculation but is based on observation of Muslim nations around the world. Tell me that most Muslim nations allow complete freedom of religion including evangelical Christianity and I'll ask you to name them. Freedom of religion was in fact the reason this country was founded. Muslim nations could not be more different.
Where's the ignorance? You're the one Saburo that is so filled with venom, are you Muslim?
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Originally posted by AKIron
Tell me that most Muslim nations allow complete freedom of religion including evangelical Christianity and I'll ask you to name them.
Malaysia
http://www.geographia.com/malaysia/kualalumpur.html
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Betown, your quote of my post were I say that, "All Muslims are a threat to the US.", is taken out of context.
I state in the following sentence that the statement that, "All Muslims are a threat to the US." is FALSE, as it is based on inductive reasoning.
I stand by my post about personal responsibility. Although I admit I did take some liberties with the style. As, I wished to use satire to point out the hypocracy of some of the people on this board.
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Thanx for your time to reply thrawn,
Although the part of my text was to point out my feelings on your post 90% of it was actualy based on my observation of other folk around me. A lot of people dislike or are paranoied about the Islamics now because of the Sept 11 and Bali etc. Islamics have been given the name of war going faniatical people and that as I am sure you know not the case.
Thanx Again
BT
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Islam could use a good PR company.
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I honestly do not believe most in this thread think all of Islam is "evil" as Thrawn likes to paint with a wide brush... Its my belief that Farrakans bunch does to the Islamic community what the Jerry Fahwells, the Jim Bakers do to Christianity.
Incidently, Farrakan plans to make a public announcement, haven't heard if he has yet or not...
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Its my belief that Farrakans bunch does to the Islamic community what the Jerry Fahwells, the Jim Bakers do to Christianity.
What, dilute it?
Sorry Rip, but that is just too tempting :D
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
I honestly do not believe most in this thread think all of Islam is "evil" as Thrawn likes to paint with a wide brush...
Oh, I'm not the one that like painting with a wide brush. My brush is painting just the people that think Islam in and of itself is the problem.
Its my belief that Farrakans bunch does to the Islamic community what the Jerry Fahwells, the Jim Bakers do to Christianity.
I'm not that familiar with Farrakan.
Incidently, Farrakan plans to make a public announcement, haven't heard if he has yet or not...
That should be interesting.
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Originally posted by AKIron
My original post pointed out the irony of the liberal left in the US being staunch defenders of Islam.
Staunch defenders of Islam, or staunch defenders of religious freedom? What's ironic is that some of you dismiss the first amendment as not pertaining to those who pratice "non Christian" religions, yet nowhere in the First Amendment does it say anything about Christian religions only.
I guess the conservatives have their pet amendments- the second, for instance- and the liberals have their favorite amendments like the first. The ones we like we quote and the ones we don't like we dismiss as being outdated, but I think the framers of the Constitution weren't as concerned whether we were liberal or conservative as much as they were concerned with having ALL our rights protected by the Bill of Rights.
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Originally posted by Airhead
Staunch defenders of Islam, or staunch defenders of religious freedom?
Staunch defenders of Islam. Lefties seem to have little tolerance for the religious right if they happen to be Christian.
My point (seems to have been missed by you) was that you defend those where when in the large majority or where they are in control of a nation, Saudia Arabia, Pakistan, Iran for example, would not afford you the same freedom you enjoy when they are not the controlling authority. May be you have no sense of irony?
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Originally posted by AKIron
Staunch defenders of Islam. Lefties seem to have little tolerance for the religious right if they happen to be Christian
Can't speak for all liberals, but I don't support any religious right, wether they are Christian, Jew or Muslim.
There are plenty of followers of these religions that are tolerant people. They go about worshiping thier God without trying to impose their religious beliefs on others. And as long as that is the case then I don't see a problem. It's when they go around diddlying with other peoples lives that a problem occures.
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Midnight and Thrawn..........
What is your viewpoint as to the cause of 9/11 and similar acts against American interests working back to 93?
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Originally posted by Rude
Midnight and Thrawn..........
What is your viewpoint as to the cause of 9/11 and similar acts against American interests working back to 93?
who cares?
I'd rather ask my 2year grand daughter her opinion on it ...
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Originally posted by Rude
Midnight and Thrawn..........
What is your viewpoint as to the cause of 9/11 and similar acts against American interests working back to 93?
Causes? There's a crapload.
Who is responsible? They guys who carried out the acts and those with foreknowledge aided and abetted them.
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I'm only curious....all I ever see them do is counter punch.
It's easy to level criticism....I wondered if they held a stance or were just throwin stones cause it's free.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Staunch defenders of Islam. Lefties seem to have little tolerance for the religious right if they happen to be Christian.
My point (seems to have been missed by you) was that you defend those where when in the large majority or where they are in control of a nation, Saudia Arabia, Pakistan, Iran for example, would not afford you the same freedom you enjoy when they are not the controlling authority. May be you have no sense of irony?
I defend their RIGHTS, yes- among those rights I defend is their right to freedom of religion. The irony is that it requires constitutional guarantees to freely express ones spiritual beliefs.
I'm just convinced most followers of Islam are here for a better life for themselves, not to destroy us, and I'm proud we live in a society that has a built in seperation of Church and State. Who would want to change that?
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Originally posted by Airhead
I'm proud we live in a society that has a built in seperation of Church and State. Who would want to change that?
Do you mean besides those so called extreme Muslims? Like the ones that took over Afghanistan and occupy so much of the Middle East?
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Originally posted by AKIron
Like so many, when you can't refute an argument you resort to name calling. Where do you see hate or ignorance in my posts? I treat women with respect and have never bombed anyone. Crawl back into your hole.
You're proving my points of your being ignorant and hateful. Your very posts prove my points. Just for you I will point them out for you (I doubt you'll get them because you're just too ignorant (or shall we say stupid now?). Awe did I hurt your wittle feewings? Here's a tissue.
OK are you ready now? Please read carefully and TRY to comprehend what I'm saying.
It is people like you that wish to label WHOLE GROUPS OF PEOPLE because it seems you can't deal with more than one concept or ideal within any one group. It is based on your ignorance (or stupidity) to classify a whole groups for specific examples:
Lefties
Muslims
I see you no different than the extremists that supported the WTC attacks and YOUR views of muslims. One fact is clear, you don't know the avg muslim. The ignorant extremists who flew those planes killing innocent civillians (American, British, etc) viewed all americans as evil. Their supporters also see the same thing. Ignorance, won't you agree? I see you making the same blanket statements here about muslims. You seem to think that most muslims happen to be terrorists.
I won't leave it alone. My original post pointed out the irony of the LIBERAL LEFT in the US being staunch defenders of Islam. They seem to assume they are the only ones that care about the rights of minorities. I pointed out that their TOLERANCE of diversity would likely be squelched one way or another should the US become a Muslim nation.
There you go with labeling again. You seem to be either uncomfortable with dealing with individuals, accuracy, and/or the truth. You seem to have a need to group things so it makes it easier for you. LOL and you preach about tolerance. You ARE funny.
Staunch defenders of Islam. Lefties seem to have little tolerance for the religious right if they happen to be Christian.
LOL, there's that 'lefty' label again. Are you inferring that your Christian? LOL. I don't see many good christian traits in your posts in this thread. We can go over them if you wish but I don't want to cloud the present issue for you. You seem to have trouble with it.
Isn't it ironic that those who seem to be the most staunch defenders of Islam in this thread (liberals) would be the first to be killed/repressed if Islam were to become the national religion here as in so many middle eastern nations? Or is it just me?
There you go again. You seem to have a 'hard on' for liberals. The same label. Ironic how you complain of 'name calling' yet can't see your own posts.
I do know from observation of said middle eastern nations that tolerance of those unwilling to embrace religion (particularly theirs) is somewhat lacking. I also know that those who spout their ideals the loudest (liberals imo) draw attention more quickly. I also know that Islam is growing rapidly in western cultures. I'm not saying the sky is falling, just noting the irony.
What observation? LOL. There you go with the 'liberal' label again. And of course it's your opinion. I'd hate for it to be everyone's opinion.
See how this works? Notice I am not blaming everyone here. I am not classifying a group. I am calling you based on your posts.
I know and have personally known a few. Other than their contempt for women (yes observed first hand) I'd agree that they were regular peace loving folks. However, most of those were US citizens and I think not typical of the majority of muslims found in other parts of the world, could be wrong about this but I don't think so.
Your last sentence above prove my point of your ignorance and prejudice. You THINK you know but you really don't.
There is more to being a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc than labeling oneself as such.
Now you go figure it out if you can.
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Liberal is a self imposed label Saburo as is leftist, one that many take pride in. It is not intended nor perceived as derogatory.
Even though I never said it out right, I will say now that based on my observations most middle eastern Muslims repress women and religions other than Islam in their countries. They have also overthrown governments and instated Islamic governments where tolerance was no longer in their dicitionaries. I'll spell two of them out for you, Iran and Afghanistan. I noticed you never refuted this but simply resorted to name calling.
If you have nothing further to offer then I'll simply ignore your assinine posts. Why don't you strap some bombs to your body and fly home to Allah.
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Originally posted by AKIron
They have also overthrown governments and instated Islamic governments where tolerance was no longer in their dicitionaries. I'll spell two of them out for you, Iran and Afghanistan. I noticed you never refuted this but simply resorted to name calling.
Didn't the Taliban receive support from the U.S. in the belief that an oppressive government was better than the anarchy that prevailed?
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Could be, I don't know. I do know that it was primarily Pakistan that supported the Taliban in gaining control of Afghanistan. And yes, there was anarchy. Did the Taliban make things better when they had the chance? All I saw was heavy religious oppression and training grounds for anti-american/western activity so I say no.
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Originally posted by Rude
I'm only curious....all I ever see them do is counter punch.
It's easy to level criticism....I wondered if they held a stance or were just throwin stones cause it's free.
WHAT!?
I'm sorry Rude, but I have taken more than my share of stances on this BBS, and I have never been one to snipe at the subject from afar. If I were there wouldn't be so many in here thinking that I am some sort of commie simp just this side of Stalin.
My stance on this subject is pretty darn clear. People who say all of Islam is bad are just stupid. I plan on pointing that out as often as necessary.
As to my opinion on the causes, does it matter? I mean, the terrorists think they have a valid reason for doing this dreadful act. This doesn't make the reason valid to sane preople, just valid to the terrorists.
I personally feel that the perpetrators were probably fooled by rhetoric and promises from Bin Laden and his cronies into doing these dreadful deads. People like Bin Laden are nothing more than power hungry wannabees. There are psychos on both sides of every issue. The sane people in the middle tend to pay the price.
And Eagler, maybe you should ask your 2 year old... you might learn something.
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Could be wrong about this, but didn't most western countries support the Taliban, when they first came to power.
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and Iron,
There is nothing ironic about supporting the freedoms of people who would take those freedoms away.
The ACLU fought for the right of the American Nazi Party to march in Skokie Illinois. Do you think the Nazi's would support the ACLU if they were to come into power?
Free speech, freedom of Religion etc. are not predicated on what your speech or religion may be. Freedoms are freedoms... period.
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Look, in what countries will you find the death penalty for converting to Christianity. How about Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt and Sudan.
Is it Islam or just the middle east?
While other middle eastern countries may allow Christians to coexist it isn't without persecution. Why aren't you liberals speaking out against this if you stand so tall for religous freedom?
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Originally posted by AKIron
Look, in what countries will you find the death penalty for converting to Christianity. How about Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt and Sudan.
Is it Islam or just the middle east?
While other middle eastern countries may allow Christians to coexist it isn't without persecution. Why aren't you liberals speaking out against this if you stand so tall for religous freedom?
OK,
I'm against the death penalty for converting your religion. So?
If this were an Islamic law, then the Malaysia would have the same law wouldn't it? hmmmmm? So would Pakistan... right?
just askin.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
and Iron,
There is nothing ironic about supporting the freedoms of people who would take those freedoms away.
The ACLU fought for the right of the American Nazi Party to march in Skokie Illinois. Do you think the Nazi's would support the ACLU if they were to come into power?
Free speech, freedom of Religion etc. are not predicated on what your speech or religion may be. Freedoms are freedoms... period.
I can appreciate that Target, however, they didn't fight for the Nazi's during WWII did they?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
OK,
I'm against the death penalty for converting your religion. So?
If this were an Islamic law, then the Malaysia would have the same law wouldn't it? hmmmmm? So would Pakistan... right?
just askin.
Like I said, while some don't have persecution to the point of death on their books it is happening, even in Pakistan. Want some specifics? I'll look 'em up.
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No, but they should have fought for the rights of the Japanese Americans, or for the rights of German Americans. Just as they should fight now for the rights of the Muslim Americans.
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If Muslims are willing and able to coexist with "infidels" then I agree. The evidence indicates otherwise to me but the jury is still out.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
and Iron,
There is nothing ironic about supporting the freedoms of people who would take those freedoms away.
The ACLU fought for the right of the American Nazi Party to march in Skokie Illinois. Do you think the Nazi's would support the ACLU if they were to come into power?
Free speech, freedom of Religion etc. are not predicated on what your speech or religion may be. Freedoms are freedoms... period.
One more comment about this: The internment of Japanese Americans does seem heavy handed and cruel in retrospect. However, let's suppose that the ACLU had done their job as you said they should have. What if many were killed by grieving and angry Americans. Or even worse, a few had spied or managed sabotage that affected the outcome of the war in that the Axis won. Would you have still protected their rights even at that cost?
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You can't possibly be stating that internment was safer for Japanese Americans and therefore justified.
Gawd, I hope not...
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
You can't possibly be stating that internment was safer for Japanese Americans and therefore justified.
Gawd, I hope not...
I asked a hypothetical question. What is your answer?
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What if many were killed by grieving and angry Americans.
Those grieving and angry Americans deserve what's coming to them according to the law.
A U.S. citizen is a U.S. citizen, period.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
and Iron,
There is nothing ironic about supporting the freedoms of people who would take those freedoms away.
I find this comment extremely ironic
The ACLU fought for the right of the American Nazi Party to march in Skokie Illinois. Do you think the Nazi's would support the ACLU if they were to come into power?
they'd be in the oven line, right behind the jews
Free speech, freedom of Religion etc. are not predicated on what your speech or religion may be. Freedoms are freedoms... period.
there are limits to every freedom
try yelling fire in a movie theatre - just freedom of speech right?
or "I have a bomb" at an airport
or a religion which sacrifices small children
list goes on and on.... another square peg in a round hole ... even my 2 year old grand baby knows better than that.
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I even support your freedom of speech Eagler, no matter how far you will stretch to make a silly point.
The movie house analogy was good, did you make that up?
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Betown, just to correct you.
Several Indonesian muslims are suspected of involvement with the Bali bombing. Including the head Cleric, who is known to be the head of the JI movement. He openly preaches anti-semitism and anti-american hatred in his school in Jakarta. He has only been recently arrested due to international pressure.
Indonesia had been constantly warned about his activities but refused to do anything. Many believe its because the goverment there are scared of the extremists.
Singapore warned them he had purchased a large amount of C4 just two weeks before and they refused to investigate it.
Lets just say that tolerance for muslims, in general, is fast running out. People here realise its extremists taking these actions. But they also believe that the muslim community in general is not taking an active role in preventing this stuff from happening, ie turning a blind eye then proclaiming "Islam is peace" after the event.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Liberal is a self imposed label Saburo as is leftist, one that many take pride in. It is not intended nor perceived as derogatory.
Even though I never said it out right, I will say now that based on my observations most middle eastern Muslims repress women and religions other than Islam in their countries. They have also overthrown governments and instated Islamic governments where tolerance was no longer in their dicitionaries. I'll spell two of them out for you, Iran and Afghanistan. I noticed you never refuted this but simply resorted to name calling.
If you have nothing further to offer then I'll simply ignore your assinine posts. Why don't you strap some bombs to your body and fly home to Allah.
LMAO! You really are funny...in a tragic sence. I don't know which to do more...laugh at you or pity you. You really have no clue how hypocritical you are. You're definitely not Christian acting despite what label you might give yourself.
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Midnight.........
Could you direct me to the post which you refer to.....I do not remember seeing anyone say that all muslims or all who follow the Islamic faith were bad.
Rather, I read these posts as saying that the motivating force behind these attacks were based in part by a particular faith....have I misunderstood this premise?
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Saburo, if Islam is to be practiced in the US as in the middle east then I don't want it here. Of course it's not now as Muslims are a small minority, about 2 million in the US. However, if/when they grow to be a majority will they be as tolerant of womens rights, infidels and other religions as the US currently is of them? Their track record says no. What else is there to go by?
Many have reported seeing Islamic glee both on television and first hand when 3,000 Americans were murdered on 9/11. My father lives near a small community of Muslims and found a large number of them at the local Walmart soon after the attack (within a day or two). They appeared to be quite festive making a lot of noise and laughing it up. That made a lot of people there very angry. Perhaps they aren't representative of the majority of Muslims, then again maybe they are.
I think there is no place in the US for any group of people that will not embrace our ideals particularly the freedom to worship or not worship as you see fit. I've no idea where you live but if it is in the US and you don't agree then don't let the door hit you on the way out.
You seem to be a little dense so I figured I'd better spell this out for you. There is no room for any religion in this country that would deny citizens basic rights as guaranteed by the constitution. A religion that would exert force upon it's adult members or nonmembers (including women) to comply with it's tenets does not belong here.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Saburo, if Islam is to be practiced in the US as in the middle east then I don't want it here. Of course it's not now as Muslims are a small minority, about 2 million in the US. However, if/when they grow to be a majority will they be as tolerant of womens rights, infidels and other religions as the US currently is of them? Their track record says no. What else is there to go by?
Many have reported seeing Islamic glee both on television and first hand when 3,000 Americans were murdered on 9/11. My father lives near a small community of Muslims and found a large number of them at the local Walmart soon after the attack (within a day or two). They appeared to be quite festive making a lot of noise and laughing it up. That made a lot of people there very angry. Perhaps they aren't representative of the majority of Muslims, then again maybe they are.
I think there is no place in the US for any group of people that will not embrace our ideals particularly the freedom to worship or not worship as you see fit. I've no idea where you live but if it is in the US and you don't agree then don't let the door hit you on the way out.
You seem to be a little dense so I figured I'd better spell this out for you. There is no room for any religion in this country that would deny citizens basic rights as guaranteed by the constitution. A religion that would exert force upon it's adult members or nonmembers (including women) to comply with it's tenets does not belong here.
LOL. You are so blinded by your prejudice and hate that you have no clue how hypocritical you sound. You sure that group of 'muslims' your father saw? How did he identify tham as muslim?
You sure they couldn't be Sikh? LOL, festive...err, just maybe they could have been celebrating a wedding? Perhaps some of their party was visiting the US for the first time? Funny how you keep preaching about the 'intolerance' of muslims, but you fail to see yours. BTW, what does a muslim look like?
Shortly after 9-11, a Sikh store owner was shot and killed by an american thinking he was muslim.
Do me a favor. Reread my posts above and try to key on the content instead (reading comprehension). Bring a dictionary with you to really understand the words you're having trouble with.
I'll give you a starting point.
Tolerance
Ignorance
Muslim
Sikh
Christian
Stupidity
Prejudice
Also while you're at it, look up the entire muslim population. (Shiite, Sunni, Druze, etc.) and tell me the #'s and differences.
Give me a number of those celebrating the 9-11 terror attack and the #'s of those that didn't. Not guesses but facts. If you've been honest, you should be embarrassed with how you've carried on here. Hmmm, maybe not LOL ;)
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Saburo, You're still dodging the issues as I see them.
Let me ask you one more question, plain as I can.
Is true Islam being practiced in Saudi Arabia? Not a hard question, yes or no will do but feel free to elaborate.
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Originally posted by Rude
Midnight.........
Could you direct me to the post which you refer to.....I do not remember seeing anyone say that all muslims or all who follow the Islamic faith were bad.
Rather, I read these posts as saying that the motivating force behind these attacks were based in part by a particular faith....have I misunderstood this premise?
Yes you have. Just as saying the KLAN is motivated by the Christian faith to do the evil they have perpetrated, the broad brush comments by some in this thread need to be held up to the light so everyone can see the idiocy in denegrating a great religion based on the actions of a few scumwads.
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Originally posted by Eagler
why hasn't any Islamic leader spoke out against this guy? WHy did so few speak out about 9/11?
why, because the majority of them agree with the "kill the infidel" doctrine the stone age, arse backwards, hate white america "religion" preaches
Here's one Rude.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Here's one Rude.
I never said all ... just most :)
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Midnight.....
So you do not agree with what he said....do you believe it to be possible?
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"why hasn't any Islamic leader spoke out against this guy? WHy did so few speak out about 9/11? "
MT already proved this statement wrong.
"why, because the majority of them agree with the "kill the infidel" doctrine the stone age, arse backwards, hate white america "religion" preaches "
What the hell does possible have to do with anything?? Eagler made the above statement and the purdone of proff is on him to prove it
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Originally posted by Rude
Midnight.....
So you do not agree with what he said....do you believe it to be possible?
no
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Yes you have. Just as saying the KLAN is motivated by the Christian faith to do the evil they have perpetrated, the broad brush comments by some in this thread need to be held up to the light so everyone can see the idiocy in denegrating a great religion based on the actions of a few scumwads.
A great religion that kills people simply because they have no faith or not their faith? A great religion that makes women subservient? Does that mean that all middle easterners are not practicing this "great religion" you speak of?
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Whats that song?
"Hello Wall"
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A great religion that condemns homosexuals? Oh wait, that's Christianity...oh wait again, that's just the way some people practice Christianity.
Hey maybe, not all people practice Islam the same way either.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
A great religion that condemns homosexuals? Oh wait, that's Christianity...oh wait again, that's just the way some people practice Christianity.
Hey maybe, not all people practice Islam the same way either.
Certainly I know that. Do you deny that Islam as practiced in the middle east is oppresive to non-Muslims and women? Where is mecca anyways? :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by AKIron
Certainly I know that. Do you deny that Islam as practiced in the middle east is oppresive to non-Muslims and women? Where is mecca anyways? :rolleyes:
I think I understand where you are coming from now. I would agree that generally, yes, Islam as it is practiced in the middle-east is opressive to non-muslims and women.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
A great religion that condemns homosexuals? Oh wait, that's Christianity...oh wait again, that's just the way some people practice Christianity.
Hey maybe, not all people practice Islam the same way either.
Well, now that I'm home and have time to respond properly let's see how Islam relates to homosexuality. I found this:
"Al-Fatiha estimates that 4,000 homosexuals have been executed in Iran since their revolution in 1979. 10 public executions of homosexuals have been performed in Afghanistan by the Taliban army."
If you're measuring the greatness or lack thereof of a religion by the way they accept homosexuality then I guess Islam is either far ahead or behind Christianity depending upon your slant.
I bet when you said condemn you really didn't mean to death?
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Whoa there.
To paraphrase:
You: Islam is intolerant.
Me: Christianity can be intolerant also.
You: Islam is intolerant.
"If you're measuring the greatness or lack thereof of a religion by the way they accept homosexuality then I guess Islam is either far ahead or behind Christianity depending upon your slant. "
But I'm not. You indicated that Islam is bad because it oppresses women and non-religious people. I indicated that chistianity was bad because it oppresses homosexuals. Then you indicated that Islam also oppressed homosexuals.
Does that fact that Islam oppresses homosexuals in any way negate the fact oppression of homosexuals by Christianity, no it does not.
What's more I do not believe that ALL Christians or Muslims oppress people.
Nor do I believe that ALL or even MOST Muslims want the death and destruction of the west.
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There's a difference Thrawn between rejecting homosexuality which many Christians do and killing those that practice it which many Muslims do. To disapprove of the practice is not oppresive, to kill someone is. See the difference?
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Originally posted by AKIron
There's a difference Thrawn between rejecting homosexuality which many Christians do and killing those that practice it which many Muslims do. To disapprove of the practice is not oppresive, to kill someone is. See the difference?
Christians have killed homosexuals beacuse they were gay, black people because they were black. They have killed abortion doctors as well.
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A church didn't do this, nor did a Christian government. I never denied there aren't lunatics that commit crimes in the name of Christianity. What's happening in the middle east though is not by a few but rather by organized religion and religous government.
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Don't get me wrong here, I don't intend to defend Christianity. I am defending my right to religous freedom. Freedom that I wouldn't have in the middle east where Muslims are a majority.
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Well, speaking as a relatively neutral viewpoint between the Christian vs Muslim argument, heres my view:
- Christians seem to commit more 'abuse' crimes, such as molestation, theft, scams etc
- the only recent major Christian driven conflict I can recall is the Bosnian/Serb stuff
- I am unaware of any Christian terrorists. IE, the Oklahoma bombing was done by Christians but for political grounds not their religion
- Muslims definitely abuse their women
- Islamic terrorists seem to be split 50/50 on terrorism for political purposes (Chechnens), and terrorism for religion (Bali)
- Islamic terrorists are hitting hard and consistantly
- the Islamic community does seem to close ranks on whats going on behind the scenes
- the Islamic community actively and unshamedly promotes hatred of Jews and Americans in their schools around the world
- the general Christian community outnumbers the Islamic community
These are things that cross my mind when I think of these two religions.
I have very little time for the bulk of the Christian community, there certainly are some good people in there, but theres a lot of scammers and people with closed minds.
And in the past I've kind of agreed the the "Islam is peace" line, but I think the Islamic community needs to clean up its back yard or start facing reprocussions. I don't believe for a second that there aren't members of the general muslim community around the globe who knew some of whats going on. The "Islam is peace" line is wearing thin, they need to start helping instead of lying low.
These terrorists do not get around, live, eat, piss, toejam, and buy C4 without help.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Don't get me wrong here, I don't intend to defend Christianity. I am defending my right to religous freedom. Freedom that I wouldn't have in the middle east where Muslims are a majority.
I understand, I just want you to get away from making generalised statements that just aren't true.
"Freedom that I wouldn't have in the middle east where Muslims are a majority. "
Is that a fact? You wouldn't have freedom of religion ANYWHERE in the middle-east? Well, we know Isreal has freedon't of religion. So your statement is true. Let's see what other coutries in the middle-east have freedom of religion.
Edit: You know, I wouldn't be arguing at all if you made the statement, "Islamic extremists are bad.".
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You could take what I said another way Thrawn. Sure, I know that Muslims aren't a majority in Israel. But in the middle eastern countries in which Muslims are a majority there is no freedom of religion, at least not what we consider to be freedom of religion in the US.
I've beat this horse long enough. I never said or implied that all or even most Muslims are terrorists. Most are decent people I'm sure. However, it's either Islam or middle eastern culture that is very oppresive by my standards and I think yours as well. I tend to think it's both based on my observations. But what does it matter what I think anyhow?
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Originally posted by AKIron
Saburo, You're still dodging the issues as I see them.
Let me ask you one more question, plain as I can.
Is true Islam being practiced in Saudi Arabia? Not a hard question, yes or no will do but feel free to elaborate.
First you define true Islam. Are you talking about the ruling monarchy? Are you talking about the population in general?
Are you actually talking about the culture or the religion of the Saudi govt and/or people? Are we talking about the majority Sunnis? The minority Shiites? How about the minority Christians?
Are you talking about Saudi Laws and customs verses what is written in the Koran?
Please try to stay away from prejudiced generalities. If you haven't figured it out by now, that has been my biggest problem with you (as well as a few others) in this thread.
You seemed to have ignored some of my questions. How about answering them instead of dodging the issue. I'll include a few more for you.
1)You sure that was a group of 'muslims' your father saw?
1a)How did he identify them as muslim?
1b)You sure they weren't Sikh or Hindu?
1c)LOL, festive...err, just maybe they could have been celebrating a wedding?
1d)Perhaps some of their party was visiting the US for the first time?
2)Look up the entire muslim population. (Shiite, Sunni, Druze, etc.) and tell me the #'s (and differences for extra credit).
2a)Give me a number of those celebrating the 9-11 terror attack and the #'s of those that didn't. Not guesses but facts.
3) What is the number of all the muslim terrorists (include all hijackers, suicide bombers, etc you know of)?
3a) What is the percentage of muslim terrorists to total muslim population (use #2 above)?
4) Are you or are you not for the freedom in this country for muslims, christians, etc to practice and worship in peace (something of the 1st ammendment)?
5) Do you truly believe that if there were an influx of muslim immigrants that we'd all be forced to convert to Islam?
5a) How in the world would that happen? (There's a reason I practice my second ammendment rights, to give my govt the perception of its armed citizen's resistance against unlawful AND tyrannical actions.)
5b) That the United States would somehow lose its Separation of Church and State?
6b) Are you willing to admit that perhaps it is some cultures and its people, not necessarily the religion that dictates the treatment of others?
7) Is your definition of 'leftist' as Socialist and/or Communist?
7a) If not, define 'leftist.'
Just curious why you would choose that label and why you seem to have a need to generalize things with a label.
BTW, not nice to be labeled(accurate or not) is it?
I'll be amazed and surprised if you answer all my questions. Don't think you will though.
Regards.
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Thrawn,
There have been Christians who committed murder, rape, pillage and waged war. But then, they weren't REALLY Christians, now were they?
Oh...and by the way...having spent some time in Egypt studying their religion and culture I can say that they do tolerate other religions. But they have laws restricting their rights. Christian churches and Jewis synagogues cannot be larger than the largest Muslim temples. A Christian or a Jew can convert to Islam, but a Muslim cannot legally convert to Christianity or Judaism. Coptic Christians are constantly being harassed about their beliefs, and their churches are subject to vandalism, as are any Christian icons.
Women who do not dress in an acceptable fashion are harassed on the streets. Or have acid thrown in their faces.
And this happens in what is widely viewed as a "moderate" Muslim country.
Regards, Shuckins
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Originally posted by SaburoS
5) Do you truly believe that if there were an influx of muslim immigrants that we'd all be forced to convert to Islam?
5a) How in the world would that happen? (There's a reason I practice my second ammendment rights, to give my govt the perception of its armed citizen's resistance against unlawful AND tyrannical actions.)
5b) That the United States would somehow lose its Separation of Church and State?
6b) Are you willing to admit that perhaps it is some cultures and its people, not necessarily the religion that dictates the treatment of others?
Even though you refuse to answer my questions I will nonetheless answer a few of yours, maybe with a question though.
5. If Islam as it is practiced in the middle east and likely elsewhere (I'll admit ignorance here) were to become dominant in the US then yes, I think religous freedom would disappear.
5a. Kinda like it did in Iran perhaps?
6b. I think I already acknowledged this possibilty.
I never claimed to be an expert on Islam, nor do I have any desire to learn much more than what I've already observed. Seeing other religions persecuted to the point of death and women treated as property is really all I need to know about Islam.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Even though you refuse to answer my questions I will nonetheless answer a few of yours, maybe with a question though.
5. If Islam as it is practiced in the middle east and likely elsewhere (I'll admit ignorance here) were to become dominant in the US then yes, I think religous freedom would disappear.
5a. Kinda like it did in Iran perhaps?
6b. I think I already acknowledged this possibilty.
I never claimed to be an expert on Islam, nor do I have any desire to learn much more than what I've already observed. Seeing other religions persecuted to the point of death and women treated as property is really all I need to know about Islam.
LOL you really are funny. Is it really that hard for you to take things on a case by case basis? Perhaps if you answered all my questions, you'd get all the answers you were looking for (whether you'd like what you saw might be another matter though).
Sorry, but if the United States had a larger Muslim population, we'd still enjoy our freedoms as our CULTURE is just too diverse and our HISTORY being what it is would not allow our losing religious freedoms.
Why didn't you answer most of my questions? Esp the ones regarding your question?
Afraid perhaps that your honest answers will expose how prejudice you might be to my specific questions? I'm really curious here. Take your time please. I'm looking for some thoughtful answers. You can do it.
BTW, are you saying that because it happened in Iran, it will or might happen in the US? What, will our 200,000(guessing at number) or so Christian, Catholic, etc allow a muslim 'takeover'?
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Saburo, when have you answered any of my questions? You didn't. This is my last post to you and in this thread. Enjoy your 70 virgins. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by H. Godwineson
Thrawn,
There have been Christians who committed murder, rape, pillage and waged war. But then, they weren't REALLY Christians, now were they?
This is how I view it. Just like, in my opinon, Muslim extremists don't really follow the tenents of Islam.
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Originally posted by H. Godwineson
Thrawn,
There have been Christians who committed murder, rape, pillage and waged war. But then, they weren't REALLY Christians, now were they?
I don't see why not. All christians are sinners.
Or maybe it is a scale sort of thing... you can be a christian if you don't violate any laws more serious than speeding.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Saburo, when have you answered any of my questions? You didn't. This is my last post to you and in this thread. Enjoy your 70 virgins. :rolleyes:
LOL, ...promises...promises. Even in leaving you just can't go without showing your prejudice and true self. You have a wonderful day! :)