Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Soviet on October 25, 2002, 10:02:02 PM
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&ncid=716&e=1&u=/ap/20021026/ap_on_re_eu/russia_theater_raid
I'm literally crying here.
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:(
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:(
I sure hope the russians just listen i mean its useless to fight a war between 2 nations and have ppl killed that were innocent
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Oh man it looks like it is going down. God save them!!!
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CNN saying now that the terrorist leader is dead, hostages pouring out, about 20 bodies dragged out.
Next step, revenge!
LONG LIVE MOTHER RUSSIA
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I can't get CNN on my crap basic cable, please keep me posted!
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From a well connected source in Russia.
They have taken half the terrorists alive, the rest are dead.
TORTURING TIME!!!
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Screw the tangos, how many hostages are dead?
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supposedly 20 bodies have come out, not sure what they are. Ambulances are POURING in. Not many hostages dead. but many wounded.
The chechen scum fired on the hostages as they ran out.
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Considering the preparation by the terrorists, if all the bad guys are 'netralized' (captured or KIA) and the building is still standing - with 20 hostages dead the assault guys did a hell of a job.
Mike/wulfie
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Yeah, i knew Russia's alfa could pull it off they're not as bad as most think.
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GOTTA LOVE HOW CNN keeps calling them "hostage-takers", "rebels", "guerillas". GOD THEY'RE F*CKING TERRORISTS. Liberal CNN..
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Originally posted by Soviet
GOTTA LOVE HOW CNN keeps calling them "hostage-takers", "rebels", "guerillas". GOD THEY'RE F*CKING TERRORISTS. Liberal CNN..
All of the names they call them are technically correct and even more specific thant "terrorist".
WTG Russian Commandos! I hope the raid went textbook.
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I guess, but knowing how CNN has a lot of reporters who are Palestinian (terrorist) supporters...
Put it this way, if the same happend in America i bet that they'd be called terrorist.
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36 terrorists killed, unknown casualties according to CNN
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If this went as well at is appears initially, it will go down as one of the greatest anti-terrorist actions in history. I hope the civilian casualties were minimal.
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BTW most of the US commentators are just using the language used by the Russian officials, who are calling them "rebels".
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Мэр Москвы Юрий Лужков сообщил, что в театральном центре "Норд-Ост" погибли "до 30 заложников". "К сожалению, есть жертвы. Я их оцениваю примерно в 30 человек", - заявил Лужков в субботу журналистам у оперативного штаба по освобождению заложников. Мэр не уточнил, погибли ли эти люди в результате штурма или были убиты террористами.
The mayor of Moscow Urii Luzhkov has informed, that in the theater died " up to 30 hostages ". Unfortunately, there are victims. "I estimate them approximately in 30 people ", - have declared Luzhkov on Saturday to journalists at an operation control for saving hostages. The mayor did not specified, whether these people were lost as a result of storm or were killed by terrorists.
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I'm glad they ended it with so few casualties.
So, is Putin going to declare the Chechyan War over... again?
Strange how a war that is supposedly over is killing 30,000 a year. Certainly looks like Russia's second Vietnam in as many decades is just going to run and run.
Very sad. :(
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How many hostages died?
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
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Glad it's over of course. Taking of hostages is always a losing situation.
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Although the operation was not just as textbook as first seen. I don't know how many but *some* hostages died because of the gas the theater was flooded with - they choked to death on their vomit. And many of them still suffer from toxic effect - the composition of the gas being kept secret so treatement is very difficult.
I am no expert here but it seems the military used a knock-out gas that aimed at rendering the enemy ineffective in the shortest possible time by using nauseous and narcotic effect at the same time. Taking the risk of victim death.
OTH, hospitals called for the need of blood - indicating there are wounded - so situation is not clear yet.
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As for preparation and planning on the terrorist side what the officials like to repeat. Local newspapers speak of a terrible failure by the russian internal security. Since the bomb attacks in moscow security was extremely tightend and whoever looked slightly like coming from the caucasus region was being controled. In such an enviroment an attack on that scale couldn't have been done without the extensive use of corruption. I mean 4 dozen armed terrorists drive by with several cars directly under the nose of the russian security force...
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Next step, revenge!
I pray to god that won't happen - why does mankind not learn from history??
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Swoop - last I heard was 67 hostages dead.
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All things considered the counter terror teams did the best job they could. There could have been many more killed for certain.
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German TV reported that more than 90 hostages were killed.
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The russians had to act because the terrorists started to kill the hostages. WTG for the Gas-idea - so they couldnt set up the bombs.
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The Russians HAD to act, simple as that. I'm no tactics expert by any stretch of the imagination, but it certainly sounds like it was a toejamty situation.
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Yep better 90 dead than 700 dead. It's still a tragedy, but it could have been a lot worse if not for the heroes of the Russian military.
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Information around Internet is that Russians used some type of nerve gas. Those 90 casualties were result of that gas.
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to the Russian troops that put an end to this.
Condolances to those that lost friends and family.
Maybe something good will come of this.
AKDejaVu
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The gas they used may have been some type of nerve agent, but don't equate that to 'the Russians hit the building with VX then treated all the hostages with antidotes'. It's not the same thing at all.
What they used was probably the equivalent in lethality of your average CS type gas (i.e. military 'tear gas'), but instead of attacking the eyes, nose, throat, etc. it probably attacked the nervous system. Think 'powerful and rapid acting sleeping gas'.
In other words, it wasn't a 'hard core' lethal agent. VX is over 99% lethal in a very short period of time. For example, a description of the gas used might (I say might, because I don't know what they used specifically) be described as '4% lethal within 1 hour but no before 20 minutes'.
The vast majority of the hostages who were killed or injured were killed or injured by gunfire, explosion, fragmentation, etc. Some died due to complications from the gas used. But remember - if they had used CS gas an old person with asthma could die from exposure to CS gas.
The official word from the Russian doctors who have examined hostages who have died from exposure to the gas was that the death of those hostages was due to 'pre-existing conditions' (see my comment about CS and older people with asthma above).
The gun battle lasted almost an hour, which means there were for certain some hostages who didn't have a crack at real medical treatment for at least 80 minutes after being exposed to the gas.
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Well, most of the above data is incorrect. At least one Dr. in Russia is probably in some trouble - because that data was from a Dr. who had been treating hostages.
Also:
They announced what agent they used - BZ, which is a heck of alot nastier than what I was guessing they used.
Before anyone goes crazy on the Russians - the way the building was wired with explosives (to cause massive casualties as well as structural failure) if they had conducted their assault without some type of similar 'preparation' the % of hostages killed and wounded would have been a great deal higher.
Mike/wulfie
(edit: due to lack of sleep was typing 'CX' instead of 'VX'...d'oh!)
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The leadership of the Russian Federal Security Service (FSB) thanked representatives of foreign special services for cooperation and assistance provided in the process of resolution of the critical situation with seizure of hostages in Moscow.
Shortly before the start of the hostage-release operation, Colonel General Viktor Komogorov, Deputy Head of RF Federal Security Service (FSB), in charge of the FSB analytical, forecasting and strategic planning department, held a meeting with representatives of special services and security agencies from a number of foreign countries. The meeting focused on the hostage crisis in Moscow. A spokesperson for the FSB Public Relations Centre (FSB PRC) told RIA Novosti that General Komogorov had briefed those present on the counter-terrorist efforts undertaken by the Russian special services.
"The participants in the meeting reached complete mutual understanding on the issues pertaining to foreign special services' collaboration with the RF Federal Security Service in regard of resistance to terror," the FSB PRC spokesman stressed.
"Our partners offered the FSB their expertise and potential to effectively cope with the hostage crisis in Moscow," the spokesperson added.
The meeting was attended by representatives of special services and security agencies from Argentina, Belgium, Hungary, Great Britain, Vietnam, Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, Italy, China, South Korea, Poland, Romania, Slovenia, the USA, Turkey, France, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Switzerland, SAR, Japan, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Ukraine and Turkmenistan.
http://www.infocentre.ru/eng_user/index.cfm?page=0&date=2002-10-27&startrow=1&msg_id=50865
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Heres russians president speech:
Путин: Мы не смогли спасти всех. Простите нас
В субботу в 21:00 по московскому времени с обращением в гражданам страны выступил президент России Владимир Путин. Lenta.Ru публикует текст обращения президента.
Дорогие соотечественники!
В эти дни мы вместе пережили страшное испытание. Все наши мысли были о людях, оказавшихся в руках вооруженных подонков. Мы надеялись на освобождение попавших в беду, но каждый из нас понимал, что надо быть готовыми к самому худшему.
Сегодня утром проведена операция по освобождению заложников. Удалось сделать почти невозможное - спасти жизни сотен, сотен людей. Мы доказали, что Россию нельзя поставить на колени. Но сейчас я прежде всего хочу обратиться к родным и близким тех, кто погиб.
Мы не смогли спасти всех.
Простите нас.
Память о погибших должна нас объединить.
Благодарю всех граждан России за выдержку и единство. Особая благодарность всем, кто участвовал в освобождении людей. Прежде всего сотрудникам спецподразделений, которые без колебания, рискуя собственной жизнью, боролись за спасение людей.
Мы признательны и нашим друзьям во всем мире за моральную и практическую поддержку в борьбе с общим врагом. Этот враг силен и опасен, бесчеловечен и жесток. Это - международный терроризм. Пока он не побежден, нигде в мире люди не могут чувствовать себя в безопасности. Но он должен быть побежден. И будет побежден.
Сегодня в больнице я разговаривал с одним из пострадавших. Он сказал: "Страшно не было - была уверенность, что будущего у террористов все равно нет. И это - правда. У них нет будущего. А у нас - есть
http://www.lenta.ru/terror/2002/10/26/putin/
Heres good russian translator for those that have trouble reading Russian :)
http://www.translate.ru/eng/erre.asp
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Death toll of hostages at 118 now, Russian Doctor says all but one died from the gas that was used.
They say that 650 are still in hospital due to gas, over 200 in criticle condition.
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Oh man it doesn't look so good now. :(
It's still better than all of them being dead though.
Islam is a religion of peace.
:(
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Ill bet yah 3/4 of those hostages died from the gas
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Here's 15mb video
http://www.moon1000.com/stuffz/hostages_divx.avi
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Originally posted by Hawklore
Ill bet yah 3/4 of those hostages died from the gas
Better than many more dying from the gunfire, or the theater being blown up IMO.
After a quick search:
Psychotropic agents (e.g. BZ) are incapacitating agents, capable of temporarily preventing personnel from performing their duties (without permanent injury). For a variety of reasons, they have not generally been used in overt warfare. Anticholinergics (e.g. BZ or 3-Quinuclidinyl benzilate, ) produces delirium following an absorbed dose of less than 1 mg. This lasts for 2 to 3 days. Reversal of the effects of BZ by physostigmine and other anticholinesterase agents has been clearly demonstrated to be both effective and safe when properly used in otherwise healthy individuals. Incapacitation produced by less likely candidates such as LSD and other indole derivatives, psychedelic phenethylamines, and potent opioids is theoretically possible, but it is unlikely that any of these compounds would be employed in the warfare context. Treatment is always symptomatic.
So that the hostages were hospitalized seems to be expected, considering the length of the effects.