Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: ~Caligula~ on September 30, 2001, 03:51:00 AM
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The nutered N1K.
BTW WTF is the perk system for if it`s not used?
Perk `em all ,and let the dweebs learn some ACM.
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You pre-1.08 N1K2, vs. Animal in a LA-7, dueling arena.
Best of 10.
I buy you 2 months AH if you win. You buy me 10, or shut up.
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There's some damn confidence eh? You offering 1-5 odds huh Creamo? And not even against you even, heh.
And if it's the Caligula I know, I'd still bet on him.
Boozer
*hic
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UFO vs. a lowly LA7?
Your right.
Alright, Ill modify to buy that whiner 2 months of AH, he buys me 15. And Ill let Animal choose the P38 (if he wants) on every other round.
[ 09-30-2001: Message edited by: Creamo ]
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BS.
A slightly less powerful N1K2-J is not nearly as important as many of the other changes to be introduced in 1.08. New strat model, new units.
A slight modification to a FM is hardly in the same league.
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creamo both la7 and n1k2 have same bug in fm in 1.07.
lol
dweeb vs dweeb
[ 09-30-2001: Message edited by: Fester' ]
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Shhhhh Karnak! No point in common sense here.
We need Caligula to teach some N1K2 UFO ACM for the masses.
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I don`t trust you creamo,you still owe me from the last fight you put money on.
So what`s the point?
Btw,why are you betting on other people ,are just too big of a popsicle to fight youself?
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I'm a popsicle, AND gay, yes. My "partner" Raymond says your a harsh person. Unthinking, and not kind.
Get him Animal!
Whooohooo, 15 months of free AH!
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I won`t do it for money.
1. because I know you wouldn`t pay.
2. even if I won and You were about to pay,the last thing I wanna do is give you my address ,or even my e-mail address.
I`ll do the duel,you can film it,take pictures,broadcast it on PPW ,all you want.
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why dont you two girls go to a room and beat each other to death with your handbags?
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my computer is FUBAR but I'll take the challenge at a friends house.
letme know when.
edit: BTW. this is Animal.
[ 09-30-2001: Message edited by: eaglemkIII ]
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I still don`t understand why isn`t creamo doing the fight,but I`ll do it except for the money part,only to make a point.
After all everyone but creamo knows that the n1k`s flightmodel is diddlyed,even HTC admits it by fixing it.
BTW I haven`t flown the n1k since the last duel I had with creamo and he`s buddy that he brought along.That was quiet a while ago.
After 9pm pst is good for me monday.
As a sidenote,it`s funny you say I`m a harsh person.I tought it was You baggin on someone for broken english just a little while ago..hmmmm...that`s gotto be some special nevada way of being kind?
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~:
After all everyone but creamo knows that the n1k`s flightmodel is diddlyed,even HTC admits it by fixing it.
I think everyone including Creamo knows that the N1K's flight model will be undergoing some revision with the next release.
However, there are those of us who believe that the N1K in its current state has a predictable if flawed flight model. This means that it's easily defeated if you know what it can or cannot do. Next tour, it's possible that it will be even easier to beat. So for me at least, the best part of 1.08 won't be making an easy kill even easier.
-- Todd/DMF
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Cuz I suck at AH. It wouldn't model the aircraft correctly.
Animal is the greatest C/O and AH flyer ever. Plus he looks like O.J. and can scuba dive.
Wait till I get Fester to spot me Boardwalk and Park Place in Monopoly.
That bastard is mine!
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Wow, well said.
Beers for DMF!
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Yeah,I wanna see your easy kill when the n1k shows up 2k over you.
If i`m lucky I can get away,but just the other day as I started to get some distance,the n1k just sprayed from D800,and took me out with 3 quick hits.
BTW the n1k is the only fighter I`ve seen that kept flying after a 30mm hit.It was 30mm `cause I only fired the cannon,before anyone tells me it was an MG hit.
nuff said
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More Beers for DMF!
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~:
Yeah,I wanna see your easy kill when the n1k shows up 2k over you.
Any plane with an alt advantage can be difficult to fight. The N1K is no different, though in some ways its strengths are also its weaknesses when it has alt. The N1K retains energy exceptionally well, which makes it a powerful BnZer. However, the N1K also turns very poorly at high speed; I've easily turned P-47s, P-38s, and Typhoons inside N1Ks that were going over 300mph.
So a N1K with alt can BnZ you all day, but how is that different than a 109, La7, P-51 or any other plane? If you can force it to get fast in order to get a shot on you, it can be easily avoided or even killed. If it manages to get slow enough to outturn you, you screwed up and played to its strengths; you deserve to die.
If i`m lucky I can get away,but just the other day as I started to get some distance,the n1k just sprayed from D800,and took me out with 3 quick hits.
With lag, it's possible he sprayed from under 600 yards out. If you presented a nice, straight, and level target for him, it was only a matter of finding the proper guns angle and then wacking you. How is this different than any other plane? I've been wacked at this range from just about every plane modelled.
BTW the n1k is the only fighter I`ve seen that kept flying after a 30mm hit.It was 30mm `cause I only fired the cannon,before anyone tells me it was an MG hit.
Dropped packets can mean that a hit you see at your end doesn't register as a hit on the other end. I've had people tell me they "lit me up" before, but I never felt a single ping. C'est la Internet.
In my experience, the N1K dies just as easily as any other plane. Sometimes they take more ammo, sometimes less depending on my aim and luck. Interesting how you can take one single experience and generalize it. In all the times I've ever hit N1Ks with 30mm cannons, they've disintegrated. <shrug>
-- Todd/DMF
[ 09-30-2001: Message edited by: Dead Man Flying ]
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Originally posted by Creamo:
Cuz I suck at AH. It wouldn't model the aircraft correctly.
Animal is the greatest C/O and AH flyer ever. Plus he looks like O.J. and can scuba dive.
Wait till I get Fester to spot me Boardwalk and Park Place in Monopoly.
That bastard is mine!
creamo I can kick your bellybutton any day of the week at monopoly even when I only own Baltic and Mediterranean Avenue
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And mortgage me the purple properties?
St. Charles, and it's a bet.
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BTW, I had 5 stars at 72 votes. You amazinhunks that think Fester can kick my bellybutton in monoploy made it 2 stars at 75.
YOU WILL have your IP's logged. I have sent them to Animal, our C/O, who will contact Pyro, and you'll be out of this BBS, thank you.
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Oh yeah,just what I expected,blame it all on netlag....lol
I`ve never seen a true n1k BnZer.They allways force a turnfight,but I`ve seen them just pull up after me when I zoomed by at 450mph or so,and catch me with ease.
But it`s all ok now,the n1k dweebride`s days are numbered... :)
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~:
Oh yeah,just what I expected,blame it all on netlag....lol
As opposed to blaming it on some ludicrous perception you have that the N1K's flight model is substantially different now than it will be after 1.08? Any day.
But you're right in that I didn't consider all of the possible factors. There's also the skill factor, and it's abundantly clear at this point that your inability to properly gauge relative E states with N1Ks is your undoing.
I`ve never seen a true n1k BnZer.
They allways force a turnfight,but I`ve seen them just pull up after me when I zoomed by at 450mph or so,and catch me with ease.
I have. And why wouldn't they force a turnfight if you're in a poorer turning aircraft? That's playing to their strengths and to your weaknesses. If you're zooming by a N1K at 450mph and getting shot, you're either allowing the N1K to lead turn you and get a shot off as you pass on by, the N1K was going substantially faster than 450mph when he turned into you, or you're exaggerating the encounter. Given that you have no film of this miraculous N1K flight modelling anomaly, I'd have to guess that you were simply outflown by someone who used speed and angles to get a shot off at you as you blew on by. Anything else is exaggeration without proof.
But it`s all ok now,the n1k dweebride`s days are numbered... :)
Which will make an easy kill even easier.
-- Todd/DMF
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bbs bug
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Ok DMF you`re right and all the people that noticed weird things about the n1k are just bunch of cracksmokers,including HTC for giving any toughts to fixing something that`s not broke.
I can explain how the n1k caught me.
I zoomed by at 450mph,he was extending away from the furball at about 250-300mph,i pulled up ,so did he,but because the n1k retains E way too well,I slowed down lot faster than the n1k.Even though I was at least 150mph faster initially,he shot me from D750 and took out my engine with only one hit.
If You see no problem with this scenario,than I dunno what else to tell You.
[ 10-01-2001: Message edited by: ~Caligula~ ]
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~:
Ok DMF you`re right and all the people that noticed weird things about the n1k are just bunch of cracksmokers,including HTC for giving any toughts to fixing something that`s not broke.
I didn't say that the N1K wasn't broken. Wasn't that the entire point of my first post to you? Whatever was goofy with the N1K, I expect HTC will fix it in the next version.
What I did state, if you were paying attention, was that even in its broken state the N1K exhibits predictable flight characteristics. Because of this, and because some of these flight characteristics may be used against the N1K, it is a plane that can be defeated by mere mortals. In my opinion, it's a plane that can be beaten easily when you know its weaknesses.
When it is "neutered" in 1.08, it will become even easier to kill.
In the future, endeavor to respond to points I've actually made, not points you wish I'd made so you can throw out some snappy one-liners in response.
-- Todd/DMF
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~:
I can explain how the n1k caught me.
I zoomed by at 450mph,he was extending away from the furball at about 250-300mph,i pulled up ,so did he,but because the n1k retains E way too well,I slowed down lot faster than the n1k.Even though I was at least 150mph faster initially,he shot me from D750 and took out my engine with only one hit.
If You see no problem with this scenario,than I dunno what else to tell You.
The N1K's E retention capabilities should be fixed in the next version, so a scenario like this one (though since it's not on film, I'm guessing the N1K was faster than you're assuming) should be rare after 1.08.
However, if a N1K has the capacity to pull straight up at 300mph and retain E well enough to shoot you when you zoom at 450mph... then I absolutely guarantee you that it will be able to do so every single time you pull this manuever against it, ceteris parebis. Funky or not, it's at least predictable. That means that in the future, don't pull such a move against a N1K unless he's slower or you're faster. If you keep pulling this move against it, and it keeps getting you killed... why do you continue to be astonished?
BTW, what plane were you flying?
-- Todd/DMF
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Why is there an assumption by some that the N1K2-J will suck after 1.08 is released?
US Navy Hellcat pilots described it doing "impossible manuvers" in reality. The veteran Japanese pilots going from the A6M5 to the N1K1-J (yes, N1K1-J) went from viewing the Hellcat as a very formidable opponent to an easy kill. The N1K2-J Shiden-Kai is a better aircraft than the N1K1-J Shiden in all ways. The N1K2 is not going to suck.
The N1K2-J was the best fighter fielded by the IJN in WWII. It didn't suck if you remove the reliability issues, as Aces High does. After 1.08 it will still do manuvers that seem to defy reality, but the fact is that it could. If you continue to pull stupid manuvers around it, it will continue to kill you. HTC is simply removing your excuse in 1.08.
If you are flying a fast aircraft you have no excuses for being killed by it. It is an easy plane to survive an encounter with and not too much more difficult than that to kill.
Karnak, 9 to 3 against the N1K2-J in Tour 20.
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Firstly I agree totally with Calig, I'm sure you N1K whiner whiners are familiar with my position regarding the N1K2-J X-Wing.
I have some interesting recordings, one of me diving at 500mph in a Wepping typhoon from a higher alt without turning, and having a N1K split esse twice and catch me on the deck.
I also have a film of me diving the N1K at 620mph, there never was a japanese aircraft robust enough to exceed 600mph, thats almost supersonic. BTW, nothing fell off, rudders, butterfly flaps nada.
The N1K was a poor climber, I have references to verify this, the N1K had extreme torque problems, I also have references for this information. The N1K had such poor brakes, it was almost impossible to land and many pilots preferred to land on the grass next to the airstrip because it was safer, the N1K was tail heavy.
In AH the N1K has one of the best climbrates, it has virtually no torque problems. You can land it on a dime, and it does'nt exhibit any kind of problem in regards to its heavy tail.
btw A Korean era mig has predictable flight attributes and were shot down by piston engined fighters in Korea, why don't we add these then. Because that would unbalance the Arena. Just like the N1K is doing now.
I'm sick of having to climb to enormous alts because I like to fly the Typhoon and know that a high N1K is probably gonna kill me or make me run for cover. I pay my AH fee too and should be able to fly what I want and at reasonable alt and have a fair chance against other AC in the MA.
You fly what you like, I'll fly a N1K and kill your bellybutton unless your at 25k or running back to base or your a Spit, La7 or Yak.
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Oh and btw, anyone who claims the N1K is easily defeated is a liar. An N1K flown by an equally skilled pilot coalt and same speed is not easily defeated. You will most probably be killed or at least will have a difficult time getting the kill. A high N1K is very difficult to beat.
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Zygote,
If the N1K2 is co-alt and co-speed you already screwed up.
Yes, if I tie both hands behind my back I do have trouble fighting. :rolleyes: Duh.
The advantage that something like an Fw190D-9 brings to the table is speed and alt. If the N1K2 is co-alt with me I can still run.
Asking for the fight to start co-alt and co-speed is like asking the N1K2 to start the fight with 2 guns emptied and to not pull more than 3 Gs. It is a crippling requirement.
I'm willing to be that if a real Fw190D-9 and N1K2-J were to start co-alt and co-speed the Dora would be in a world of trouble.
N1K2s are easy to survive against. No lie.
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Yes, N1Ks are easy to survive against because there are many poor-sticks flying the thing. In capable hands, that's a completely different story. Last night, flying an F6F, I encountered a N1K that flew head-and-shoulders above the typical N1K that I run into. Had I not had the help of friendlies around, this N1K flown by Urchin would've handed me my tailplane all wrapped up in a pretty bow with a letter of condolence.
The N1K flown by a good stick is very deadly, in my opinion. More so than any other aircraft I personally encounter.
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Originally posted by Zygote:
btw A Korean era mig has predictable flight attributes and were shot down by piston engined fighters in Korea, why don't we add these then. Because that would unbalance the Arena. Just like the N1K is doing now.
Is ignoring the points I've made an attribute of those who revile the N1K2? I haven't even addressed whether or not the N1K belongs in the arena, nor have I denied that it is "broken." My point is that, broken or not, the "impossible moves" that it pulls are predictably impossible and therefore easily countered. As such, it is an easy kill. To respond to your specific point, I don't think the N1K as currently modelled is unbalancing in any way other than being overused.
You fly what you like, I'll fly a N1K and kill your bellybutton unless your at 25k or running back to base or your a Spit, La7 or Yak.
Woah, wait a minute. Now you're qualifying your statement? What's so special about Spits, La7s, and Yaks that they miraculously cancel the effectiveness of N1Ks? Hm.
-- Todd/DMF
[ 10-01-2001: Message edited by: Dead Man Flying ]
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Originally posted by Zygote:
Oh and btw, anyone who claims the N1K is easily defeated is a liar. An N1K flown by an equally skilled pilot coalt and same speed is not easily defeated. You will most probably be killed or at least will have a difficult time getting the kill. A high N1K is very difficult to beat.
Any plane flown by an equally skilled pilot against you should be a difficult kill. The N1K is no different. Any plane with altitude is more difficult to beat than a co-alt or lower plane. I fear a high 51 or 109G-10 more than I do a high N1K, as I know both have the qualities that can truly allow them to dominate a fight with an alt advantage.
I stand by my statement. The N1K is an easy kill. I'm 107 and 23 against them this tour.
-- Todd/DMF
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"niki whiner whiners"
lol. you are stupid.
so you admit you are a shameless whiner?
whine boy, whine loud! htc dont care about whiners anyways.
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n1k = easy plane to fly and get kills in.
n1k = plane that can be flown as Energy fighter or as Turn plane.
n1k = plane that if anyone has an inkling of know-how of ACM has a high chance of survival.
n1k = plane that can be VERY hard to defend agaist/fight against co-E/Alt with pilot of equal skilset.
n1k = overall simple, low learning curve, easy to use fighter.
n1k = less pilot intervention to put terms on your side compared to fighting with most all other planes in AH.
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Creamo, I'll take those beers now. I need 'em! :D
-- Todd/DMF
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Zygote, if you have the data to prove all these claims, why haven't you shared them with us and Pyro over in the Aircraft & Vehicles section?
I'll be the first to say the N1K2 needs work right now, especially in its E retention, but I haven't seen anything near what your claiming.
Yes the N1K2 can be deadly, but like DMF has said, its predictable and beat able.
The pilot who can engage and disengage at will, controls the fight.
If your getting killed by N1K2's your either making bad choices in the fight, or your SA is failing. Oh, or maybe your just a Spit pilot ;)
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I'll be sure to file this under the "Drugged up" folder in the X-Files next time I'm near the Pentagon.
Lay off the crack, it does bad things to your teeth.
-SW
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Originally posted by Zygote:
I'm sick of having to climb to enormous alts because I like to fly the Typhoon and know that a high N1K is probably gonna kill me or make me run for cover. I pay my AH fee too and should be able to fly what I want and at reasonable alt and have a fair chance against other AC in the MA.
Check. So, from now on HTC should first ask this question before they even think about modeling a plane: "If we choose to model this plane, will it possibly cause Zygote (flying his plane of choice) to choose to climb to 'enormous alts' and possibly run away when spotting this plane at a higher alt?". And, if the answer to either point is yes, they simply won't model the plane. I guess they can just move on to modelling more features now then. :rolleyes:
SOB
BTW...If this game was fair, it'd suck.
[ 10-01-2001: Message edited by: SOB ]
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I find the Spitfire, La7 and Yak more dangerous while flying the Typhoon then the N1K, usually because these planes are flown by virtual pilots with better SA and ACM / E management skills. N1K seem to be a lot less skilled and / or overconfident. However you put a skilled pilot in an N1K and the situation changes dramatically.
example:
Mindanao Map
I take off from field in a heavy Typhoon full fuel and droptanks. Just after takeoff I spot a Bish D11 attacking a IL2 on the deck. I hit Wep and attack the Jug, we go vertical and then eventually after a series of passes where I score some hits, we go flat turn until I kill him.
I kill the same pilot half hour later again in Typhoon v D11.
The next day I'm killed prolly 10 times by the this pilot, I don't kill him once. He's in a 10 vs 2 and gets 9 kills. What variable has changed?
He's flying an N1K.
And the reason I don't post the data I have on the N1K is simply because its a waste of time, the whiner whiners will just find some way of invalidating it or disregard it altogether. There is no proof that will satisfy someone who argues for the sake of arguing.
If you want it, make up a temp email and i'll send it to you.
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Zygote,
Its e-retention being reduced should lower its ability to kill in a zoom climb.
However, it is a late 1944 aircraft and your Typhoon was considered a disappointment in air-to-air combat. The N1K2 will still be leathal in the hands of a veteran AH pilot after the 1.08 changes have gone live.
What I do with the Typhoon vs. N1K2 is come in with a strong altitude advantage. I never pull more than 3 Gs during the fight and I make sure to leave if he is starting to equalize the energy situation. Doing that I usually win against N1K2s. I mostly flew the Typhoon and Fw190D-9 in Tour 20 and came out with a 9 to 3 record against N1K2s, and two of those deaths were while I was flying Spitfire MkVs and Ki-61s.
An Ace in an N1K2 is definately something to respect, and I don't think that's going to change.
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Originally posted by Zygote:
I take off from field in a heavy Typhoon full fuel and droptanks. Just after takeoff I spot a Bish D11 attacking a IL2 on the deck. I hit Wep and attack the Jug, we go vertical and then eventually after a series of passes where I score some hits, we go flat turn until I kill him.
I kill the same pilot half hour later again in Typhoon v D11.
The next day I'm killed prolly 10 times by the this pilot, I don't kill him once. He's in a 10 vs 2 and gets 9 kills. What variable has changed?
He's flying an N1K.
And here's my guess as to what happened here. Judging from the description you gave of how you fought this pilot in the P-47, you used the Typhoon's superior flatturning capabilities (yes, it actually can flatturn reasonably well with speed) to defeat him. His mistake was attempting to turn and use the vertical against, apparently, an aircraft that was better at it than his was.
Later, when he grabbed a N1K, you probably attempted to fight him exactly the same way, now playing to the strengths of his aircraft and not yours. Naturally you died for it... again and again and again. Why should this come as surprise to you? At slow and medium speeds, the N1K usually outturns the Typhoon. It'll also outroll it and probably outdive it from from slow speed up to medium speed, though in my experience the Typhoon easily outaccelerates the N1K at medium to high speeds. The N1K certainly retains E better at all speeds and likely suffers from less parasitic drag.
So how should you have fought the N1K? Because the Typhoon bleeds E much faster than the N1K, and also because it accelerates better at medium to high speeds, the best strategy is to get the fight as fast as possible, then turn inside the N1K for a snapshot or two. When you get down to medium speed doing so, you should still be able to accelerate away in a dive.
If you stuck around and died after getting slow, he deserved to beat you.
-- Todd/DMF
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I did'nt die vs that pilot in Typhoon, very rarely die to N1K in Typhoon, as DeadMan said earlier, the N1K is predictable, usually a HO merge and then a rediculously high zoom, followed by rediculously fast accelerated dive etc etc.
In Tour 20 I killed 17 N1K's in tiffie and was killed 3 times by N1K in tiffie. 5.6 to 1
This tour, I've been killed once and killed 5 N1K's. 5 to 1
But just because I can kill them quite easily in the Tiffie does'nt mean they should be allowed to swamp the arena like they do. Its unbalancing, they have serious problems, they have the same eny rating as the CHOG which is perked, yet they remain unperked.
As I mentioned earlier they can apparantly accelerate faster from a lower alttitude while performing 180 degree manuevers then a diving Typhoon flying a straight path. They have no torque etc etc. This is all BS and should be fixed.
IMO they make the game very quakelike and I find this unenjoyable and I know a lot of other people do too.
BTW Dead Man, what is your online nick?
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The D11 is far superior in a flat turn as well as vertical vs Tiffie IMO.
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Originally posted by Zygote:
I did'nt die vs that pilot in Typhoon, very rarely die to N1K in Typhoon, as DeadMan said earlier, the N1K is predictable, usually a HO merge and then a rediculously high zoom, followed by rediculously fast accelerated dive etc etc.
The N1K accelerates well from low speed to medium speed. If you put yourself in a position where you have to outaccelerate a N1K from below 200mph in a Typhoon, you're in trouble. The N1K appears to do the 180 thing so well because it can whip around, get slow, and then get fast again in a hurry. Don't play that game.
In Tour 20 I killed 17 N1K's in tiffie and was killed 3 times by N1K in tiffie. 5.6 to 1
This tour, I've been killed once and killed 5 N1K's. 5 to 1
Then you understand that they're easy to kill, and that Caligula's assertion that HTC "fixing" the flight model is the best thing in 1.08 is simply wrong. This was my original point, and you've just supported it.
But just because I can kill them quite easily in the Tiffie does'nt mean they should be allowed to swamp the arena like they do. Its unbalancing, they have serious problems, they have the same eny rating as the CHOG which is perked, yet they remain unperked.
This has absolutely nothing to do with any of the points you made early. You argued that the N1K's flight model was screwy earlier, but now you're arguing that they should be perked because of their numbers? I believe I actually stated earlier that the only thing unbalancing about the N1Ks was their overabundance; the perception that they're vastly superior planes drives their overuse, but it doesn't necessarily make them vastly superior planes either.
As I mentioned earlier they can apparantly accelerate faster from a lower alttitude while performing 180 degree manuevers then a diving Typhoon flying a straight path. They have no torque etc etc. This is all BS and should be fixed.
More unsubstantiated claims about the N1K's incredible capabilities. I think N1K opponents will be pretty disappointed at how well the plane still performs even after the flight model revisions.
IMO they make the game very quakelike and I find this unenjoyable and I know a lot of other people do too.
So if it turns out that the "neutered" N1K is still an incredibly powerful plane, will you still find the game unenjoyable? This despite the fact that it would be as accurately modelled as possible by HTC? Beyond perking it, I wonder what you'd do then.
BTW Dead Man, what is your online nick?
Varied depending on when I played. :)
-- Todd/DMF
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Originally posted by Zygote:
The D11 is far superior in a flat turn as well as vertical vs Tiffie IMO.
Probably in a sustained turn, but I've found few planes that turn as well instanteously as the Typhoon.
And this from someone who flew the Typhoon for three or four tours as Calamari. I know my Tiffies. :)
-- Todd/DMF
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Zygote,
What would you rather the arena was swamped with?
Spitfire MkIXs? (Only 300 of these were built, BTW. 100 less than the number of N1K2-Js built.)
P-51Ds?
La-7s?
I think that the N1K2 is far, far preferable to either of those. Most planes can run from an N1K2 and then return with the advantage.
Against hordes of La-7s and P-51Ds most well liked aircraft are simply so much scrap.
When you claim that it is imbalancing, consider how imbalancing the alternatives would be.
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Last day I flew before moving out from city I flew a Fw190A8 ,baltic map, S of A24 I think.
There was a massive furball there between knits and bishops. I had already 7 kills when I saw apar low tangling with a N1K2. I made a pass and missed the shot. Did a loop and came in again and found that Apar was already dead. I fired at the lower/slower nik, wich was doing a close-to-right turn, using the 190's instantaneous turnrate to win a deflection shot, but I missed. I levelled pointing towards home because low fuel. The N1K2 completed his 360deg turn, levelled behind me. All this at some 3K of alt.
3 minutes later I was dead. The %!"$ing UFO caught me even when I dived on him, fired, and made him turn 360 degrees while I was already egressing.
If the N1K2 is properly fixed, this kind of BS will never happen again. And that IMO makes it 1,08 worth enough, even without any more additions.
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Originally posted by R4M:
3 minutes later I was dead. The %!"$ing UFO caught me even when I dived on him, fired, and made him turn 360 degrees while I was already egressing.
3 minutes later? That is a completely differently part of the fight then. 3 minutes is plenty of time to get co-e with a higher faster bandit, especially if he is over confident with his own E state... Maybe you did something in those 3 minutes that got you killed?
The n1k is better than it should be but it is NOT a UFO... I'm not a very good stick but I still had a k/d against the n1k higher than 1 last tour. I'm looking forward to the FM revision but I think all this Niki whining is exactly that: whining.
From the Merriam Dictionary:
Main Entry: whine
Pronunciation: 'hwIn, 'wIn
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): whined; whin·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English hwInan to whiz; akin to Old Norse hvIna to whiz
Date: 13th century
intransitive senses
1 a : to utter a high-pitched plaintive or distressed cry b : to make a sound similar to such a cry
2 : to complain with or as if with a whine
There it is. All these guys are doing is whizzing. :)
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I'm not whining, just stating a plain logical fact.
The N1K is incorrectly / insufficiently modeled.
The Chog spins around and kills you when you land if not handled properly while the N1K2-J lands like a dream. Pity all the N1K2-J pilots are dead, they would whiz emselfs if they saw that.
The Typhoon has lots of torque, while the N1K2-J with a much lighter body and same HP engine does not?
The P38 has a similiar climb rate to the N1K2-J although the N1K2-J was reported to be "unsuccessful as a bomber interceptor due to its poor climb rate".
I could go on, but i'm becoming bored of this topic so I won't.
I don't complain about La7's, Spits, any other planes, I don't whine when I die I <S>, even when I'm ganged by many cons.
My aim is not to annoy or complain for the sake of complaining. I sincerely enjoy AH and believe it to be the greatest flight sim / game ever produced.
However I find it somewhat offensive when a person feels they need to fly an AC in a game which gives them a significant advantage over another player(s), but most of all I find it offensive that they then try to deny this fact here on the BBS.
Somewhat akin to cheating at Chess.
BTW Karnak, I would prefer an arena full of La7's and Spit 9's as long as thier FMs were correctly modeled, I would have nothing to complain about.
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Blue mako, f%$% off with your stupid "whiner" thing. I bounced a Niki wich did a 360degree turn and followed me. I egressed towards home in a nominally faster plane at the optimum altitude.
HE CAUGHT ME IN LESS THAN 2 MINUTES, smartass. The last minute was me trying to shake him off (quite difficult thing to do in a 190A8), the two previous minutes was me running with HIM CLOSING THE F#"%$ing GAP. I didnt turn, I didnt change heading. Nothing, nada. Nil. I bounced a N1K2 wich was just finished a low and slow fight and HE DAMNED caught me.
If you still that is something near acceptable, then go play Xwing.
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P.S. take a look at my last scores on K/D with nikis. I have no problem killing them, but I darned have a problem when I see toejam like that.
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R4M how fast were you going in the dive away from the n1k??
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I will describe the setup from the start.
I was at 5K, around 2K over the N1K2 and pointing at him, coming down from my previous loop. He just killed Apar at that time. He had seen me and started a very closed flat break turn towards the right. While diving I pulled into him to cut the angle and get a deflection shot. I fired but missed; as soon as I was pointing towards home, I immediatly levelled the plane and straighted it for RTB (I had 7 kills at that time,and had less than 12% fuel). He completed the 360 deg. turn and followed me.
I got as far as some 2.5K, but he IMMEDIATLY started gaining on me. when he got at 700 yards he started shooting and soon he had kicked my rudder out of the plane. I tried to shake him off but was next to impossible. In a few seconds I was dead.
Wich was my speed when I levelled and started to run away?. not sure. Maybe 250mph, maybe a bit more (this happened 2 weeks ago).
All I know is that he had JUST finished a CLOSE FIGHT against Apar,and that when I came in from my previous loop, he was LOWER and WAY SLOWER than me. When I levelled, I had done a turn of less than 120 degrees trying to get the deflection shot. He turned a whooping 360 and he got me.
I call that BS. I know there were a couple of knit witnesses around there (as I said that happened near a big furball), I dont recall who were they -I think that Rocket was around the zone at that time, not sure if he saw that.
Still I took it quite well, even though that niki cut off a 25+ streak in Fw190A8 without getting shot down. But it was full of BS, and I keep what I said: even if 1.08 brings only a fixed FM to the Niki it will be well worth the wait.
[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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I find it amusing that those who seem to be complaining about N1Ks also qualify their complaints by demonstrating how much success they have while flying against them.
I guess they agree with me then that "fixing" the N1K, no matter what that entails, will make an easy kill even easier after all.
For all the complaining about miraculous manuevers, 360 degree insta-turns for HO shots, UFO flight properties, and more... if we all seem to kill them more than they kill us, I fail to see what all the fuss is about. The N1K flight model will be corrected, and if that increases its accuracy I'm for it 100% -- regardless of whether that improves or degrades its relative performance.
-- Todd/DMF
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying:
The N1K flight model will be corrected, and if that increases its accuracy I'm for it 100% -- regardless of whether that improves or degrades its relative performance.
Agreed.
The only thing I've found wrong (actually tested) was it's ability to retain control (even over the ailerons) at 0MPH in a 90degree vertical zoom. Tested this offline, and it acted as if enough air was moving over the ailerons at 0MPH that it could still roll rather decently. I could hold it at that attitude until it could no longer produce enough power to hold itself upright. Then when it exited flight, it went into a spin and promptly corrected itself with no input from me.
That's the only thing I've found to be incorrect.
-SW
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying:
I find it amusing that those who seem to be complaining about N1Ks also qualify their complaints by demonstrating how much success they have while flying against them.
I guess they agree with me then that "fixing" the N1K, no matter what that entails, will make an easy kill even easier after all.
Todd, I never said a N1K2 is a difficult target. I dont think is exactly an easy target, either, even when I never had serious trouble dealing with them. It just happens that sometimes when you KNOW you have done the CORRECT move at the PROPER TIME, you get SERIOUSLY pissed off because the other plane has gotten you in a very weird way, when he shouldn't have done it.
Just as an example, look what I said before, a 7 kill sortie, 25+ kill streak sent to hell because the N1K2 E retaining is unbeliable. That sort of things tend to seriously piss me off.
I dont want, and I couldnt care the less about having easier or harder targets. I just want to survive and RTB if I fly my plane properly, not being surprised by some BS move that a porked plane can do.
I dont care if the N1K2 is an easy kill or not, all I know is that the plane can do some things it shouldnt, and that given the great use the N1K2 sees I can't wait to see it fixed.
Hope that now you get my point :)
[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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Originally posted by R4M:
Todd, I never said a N1K2 is a difficult target. I dont think is exactly an easy target, either, even when I never had serious trouble dealing with them. It just happens that sometimes when you KNOW you have done the CORRECT move at the PROPER TIME, you get SERIOUSLY pissed off because the other plane has gotten you in a very weird way, when he shouldn't have done it.
I know where you're coming from. :) But another point I made earlier is that, in my experience at least, the N1K has never pulled an unbelievable manuever against me. Don't get me wrong, it can pull some fantastic stuff... but I'm never surprised when it does it. I'm at the point where I know the limits of its capabilities regardless of how great those capabilities might be. Any time I die to one, I know it was my fault. I can't remember the last time the N1K pulled a move on me that left me exasperated or bewildered.
-- Todd/DMF
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hmm 250mph... I was hoping that if you had been in a diving turn you would have been upwards of 300+ then settled out at around 320 or so on your egress.
Meanwhile, if the n1k was Turning hard for you as you zoomed passed and he had already been slow say (150-250mph) then no he should have not caught up to you.
Due to the n1ks Ability to accelerate however he could have easily sped up to around 300 (energy FM faluts eh?)
The whole problem with this is How much of his speed did he KEEP as he turned throughout his 360. (FM faults with energy retention)
It sounds like you were going slow however if you have only gotten up to 250mph on the deck. The n1k would most likely at this point just accellerated up to you.
Summary: ya seemed to be going slow for a Dive, and although the distant gap of 2.5 was there, it may have been closed due to the energy retention faults of the n1k, and the overall better n1k ability to accelearte over an A8.
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Todd: Ok with me :) but I've seen (and suffered) quite many times the problem with the N1K E-retaining (mostly in zooms)
Highflier: 250-280, cant recall exactly. Anyway that Niki was definitely way slower than me when I levelled, and he was pointing the other way with 180 degrees still to turn before facing me. He got out from a 360degree turn and then caught with a faster plane.
The run wasnt on the deck. It was around at 2-3K, where the 190A8 tops its speed at lower altitudes. At those alts the A8 is FASTER than the N1K2. Even with a rocket in his prettythang he shouldn't have caught with me.
About the dive itself dont be surprised. When I saw him start the close flat turn I cutted throttle for a couple of seconds to reduce my speed a bit and reach the 190 corner speed a bit before, and thus helping me to win a deflection shoot before. Still, I insist, I was NOTABLY FASTER than the N1K2.
We can always ask Apar about their speed when the nik killed him. As I said, immediatly after he was killed, I bounced the N1K2.
[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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Im no air craft buff, but was the N1K carrying that much ammo in its time?
I got some film my self of a N1k doing some unbelievable things!
had one on deck TNB with another AC, i zoomed in (p47-11) from 5-7k above, took some shots and kept going. the nerd followed me i dove more and got to 500+ mph and leveled. after he got closer i pulled up hard into a black out manuever, stayed blacked out for a good time, when i came to he was aimlessly heading away from me, i sixed him and blew him to toejam.. :D
Unbelievable eh????
Ohh wait wasnt supposed to end like that.
He should have used his tractor beem to latch on to me in my black out manuever. :eek:
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Yea, Ram, my guess is that the N1K2 just plain outaccelerated you. A dive of 2k really isn't all that much of a dive, coupled with the fact that you chopped throttle and turned to go for the snapshot (no matter how fast you were going before, you just chopped 100mph off your speed with that move), and once you missed you said you continued to turn until you were pointing home (don't know how large a turn this was)- and levelled out to run. A N1K can be going 200 when you are going 300 and more than likely he will hit 350 before you do. The 190A8 will get its bellybutton handed to it in a fight with a N1K if it has to run. The N1K will outdive the 190 and it will retain its speed better than the 190 will. I honestly think that once you missed the shot you lost the fight.
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Ya know what I really hate though ;)
Those guys that are in your dead 12.. Getting waxed by your 50cals.. and all of a sudden they turn into floating space craft!
All of a sudden, they are Floating away as if they had hit some zero G world ,... THEN suddenly ZOOOOOOOOOoooOOOOoooOOMMM around to your Rear and start shooting!
NOW that is some UFO! CRAP! :mad: :D
hehe Iknow i know its called LAG.. but I think that things like that should be adressed.
how about, if the guy warps away like this, Your FE keeps him at his current position until you finish blasting him ! :D
Anyway.. R4M. I understand.. I too think that the n1k has problems.. but thats Why Hitech is looking inot changing all that right? :)
Fear not, for the UFO-Like-Anti-G-Ride may no longer perform the way that it does in some aspects.
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Originally posted by Urchin:
Yea, Ram, my guess is that the N1K2 just plain outaccelerated you. A dive of 2k really isn't all that much of a dive, coupled with the fact that you chopped throttle and turned to go for the snapshot (no matter how fast you were going before, you just chopped 100mph off your speed with that move), and once you missed you said you continued to turn until you were pointing home (don't know how large a turn this was)- and levelled out to run.
So, let me get this straight...A N1K2, just out from a CLOSE STALLFIGHT (likely starting speed being lower than 150mph), should catch a 190A8 wich bounced it, and is egressing more than 100mph faster, with a desviaton of 180 degrees (the N1K2 was moving away when I levelled the plane)...because what?...you must be kidding.
I didnt say I was turning until I pointed home. I said I kept the deflection shoot UNTIL I was heading home, and AT THAT SAME MOMENT I levelled and headed home, speed around 250-280mph IAS.
"A N1K can be going 200 when you are going 300 and more than likely he will hit 350 before you do."
Really? even when it is pointing the other way and has 180 degrees to turn while the other plane is moving away?
dont think so
The 190A8 will get its bellybutton handed to it in a fight with a N1K if it has to run.
Completely false. check HTC's charts if you dont believe me. The Fw190A8 is faster than the N1K2 at the alt we were.
The N1K will outdive the 190 and it will retain its speed better than the 190 will.
Now ,lets see. A plane wich fully loaded weights something like 8000-9000lbs (have no idea on the real weight of the N1K2 so I might be in a mistake here) outdiving a heavyweight like the 190A8 that weights that UNLOADED??.You must be kidding.
But anyway this is not of interest here, because I didnt dive at any moment after the trackin gshot and levelling the plane. I egressed at 2-3K of alt and kept that alt until I got my rudder kicked away.
I honestly think that once you missed the shot you lost the fight.
True. That was the reason I went towards home and didnt stand to fight. But he shouldnt have catched me, and that is MY point.
BTW and just FYI: Dont underestimate the Fw190A8's acceleration under 5K. A plane wich climbs 3500fpm at full load at that altitude is not that bad, and can give you some nasty surprises.
[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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The single most important feature of 1.08..
Will be a new Map with Beer and Pizza somewhere on it again ;)
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Am0n,
Some Japanese guys posted a whole bunch of info that convinced HTC that the ammo on the N1K2 needed to be ajusted upwards. Thus we have an aircraft with gobs of ammo.
The amount of 20mm ammo carried by the N1K2 (900 rounds) and F4U-1C (924 rounds) is incredible. However, I have never found any info to contradict it.
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R4M,
Take a chill pill man.
I didn't get personal with you so why do you feel the need to get personal with me? Take it easy before you blow an o-ring or something.
My post was trying to point out that you didn't give us the complete story. Don't expect everybody to take your word as gospel when you don't give us all the facts. Explain yourself, no need to get worked up though. Re-read what I said, I stated that I think the n1k FM is in need of work but my opinion is that it is not a UFO.
And the whiner comment was directed at the board in general...
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"There was a massive furball there between knits and bishops. I had already 7 kills when I saw apar low tangling with a N1K2. I made a pass and missed the shot. Did a loop and came in again and found that Apar was already dead. I fired at the lower/slower nik, wich was doing a close-to-right turn, using the 190's instantaneous turnrate to win a deflection shot, but I missed. I levelled pointing towards home because low fuel. The N1K2 completed his 360deg turn, levelled behind me. All this at some 3K of alt.
3 minutes later I was dead. The %!"$ing UFO caught me even when I dived on him, fired, and made him turn 360 degrees while I was already egressing."
I seen the very first problem right off >
apar + massive furball + low tangling with a N1K2
You better get used to it (dieing trying to save his ass), or teach him better .
I said enough , have a nice day
:eek:
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Originally posted by R4M:
So, let me get this straight...A N1K2, just out from a CLOSE STALLFIGHT (likely starting speed being lower than 150mph), should catch a 190A8 wich bounced it, and is egressing more than 100mph faster, with a desviaton of 180 degrees (the N1K2 was moving away when I levelled the plane)...because what?...you must be kidding.
I didnt say I was turning until I pointed home. I said I kept the deflection shoot UNTIL I was heading home, and AT THAT SAME MOMENT I levelled and headed home, speed around 250-280mph IAS.
"A N1K can be going 200 when you are going 300 and more than likely he will hit 350 before you do."
Really? even when it is pointing the other way and has 180 degrees to turn while the other plane is moving away?
dont think so
I do. The 190A8 doesn't have earthshaking acceleration. How far away was he when he was pointing "180 degrees" from you? I'm guess under d1.0, furthermore, he was still turning, so he probably only had about 90 degrees left to go on his end.
"The 190A8 will get its bellybutton handed to it in a fight with a N1K if it has to run."
Completely false. check HTC's charts if you dont believe me. The Fw190A8 is faster than the N1K2 at the alt we were.
Completely true. The 190A8 is faster by 5-10 mph at 3k. The N1K2 WILL accelerate to its top speed faster than the 190A8. Furthermore, just about the only way you are going to get away from a N1K2 in a 190A8 is to run until his WEP runs out, because you won't be gaining very much ground (you'll be losing ground if you start slow).
" The N1K will outdive the 190 and it will retain its speed better than the 190 will."
Now ,lets see. A plane wich fully loaded weights something like 8000-9000lbs (have no idea on the real weight of the N1K2 so I might be in a mistake here) outdiving a heavyweight like the 190A8 that weights that UNLOADED??.You must be kidding.
No, I'm not kidding. The N1K2 will outdive the 190A8, and it WILL hold its speed better once both planes level out. I know it is lighter, perhaps that is part of the 'bug' in the Flight Model.
But anyway this is not of interest here, because I didnt dive at any moment after the trackin gshot and levelling the plane. I egressed at 2-3K of alt and kept that alt until I got my rudder kicked away.
You are damned if you do and damned if you don't in that situation. IF you dive to build up speed faster, you give the N1K2 room to do the same thing, which it does better than you do. If you stay level and try to outrace it, again you lose, because it accelerates better than you do, and the top speed is not that much below yours. You ever run down a pony in a 109G10? I'm sure you have, I know I have. This is despite the fact that the pony has a faster top speed on the deck by a few mph on HTC's charts. The way I normally do it is to do a shallow dive to speed up, followed by a very very shallow climb to get my altitude back, followed by a dive, until you are close enough to fire and make him break, sort of like how you spent your last minute in your words.
" I honestly think that once you missed the shot you lost the fight."
True. That was the reason I went towards home and didnt stand to fight. But he shouldnt have catched me, and that is MY point.
You aren't flying a Dora here Ram. The N1K2 is 5 miles an hour slower than the 190A8, maybe 10 TOPS. Given his better acceleration, I am not surprised he caught you.
BTW and just FYI: Dont underestimate the Fw190A8's acceleration under 5K. A plane wich climbs 3500fpm at full load at that altitude is not that bad, and can give you some nasty surprises.
Whats the N1K2's climb rate under 5k? It is a damn sight better than 3500 feet I'd wager. In practice, I've not gotten anywhere CLOSE to 3500 FPM in a 190a8, unless I'm at 50% gas right off the runway.
[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: R4M
[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
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Your all utter utter, UTTER Bastards!!!!! :D
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Originally posted by R4M:
(have no idea on the real weight of the N1K2 so I might be in a mistake here[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
Does anyone else notice how the luftwhiner N1K2 witch hunt is missing facts?
[ 10-04-2001: Message edited by: Montezuma ]
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originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I find it amusing that those who seem to be complaining about N1Ks also qualify their complaints by demonstrating how much success they have while flying against them.
DMF you misunderstand my reasons for posting my kill stats vs N1K. I got the impression that both you and Karnak thought I was unaware of how to engage the N1K in a Typhoon.
So I posted my stats, I make no claim to be anything but at a average player in the MA, have only been playing AH for a couple of months.
When I meet people like SirLoin, Lev, GTR, Fester, Ripsnort etc I get my bellybutton kicked severely, as I should. What irkes me is getting my bellybutton kicked by a plane, not a person.
<S>
BTW This my last N1K post till 1.08 <G>
:D :mad: :D :mad: :p
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Originally posted by Zygote:
When I meet people like SirLoin, Lev, GTR, Fester, Ripsnort etc I get my bellybutton kicked severely, as I should. What irkes me is getting my bellybutton kicked by a plane, not a person.
If you'd met any of them with you in a N1K, do you think the outcome would be any different? :)
And I hope you post again... say... tomorrow? <crosses fingers>
A man can dream!
-- Todd/DMF
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Neg, I will not post again, I'm a fertilized ovum of my word!!!!
BTW in an N1K I'd have a good chance imo
:D
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<quote>In Tour 20 I killed 17 N1K's in tiffie and was killed 3 times by N1K in tiffie. 5.6 to 1<quote>
Zygote If you can kill a UFO consistantly with that Tiffy sounds like we need to perk the tiffy.
Die with dignity.Shut the hell up and replane. :D :eek:
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Shuddup Dea you smooogle!!!! :D
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Go rape a roo ya fargin Icehole you.<muttering Incoherently>