Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Citabria on July 18, 2000, 02:44:00 AM
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seems to be portrayed in the aces high 190a5.
mostly the stories of the vertical performance of the 190 ring in my ears when i fly it in AH. we all know how inaccurate pilot accounts are of airplanes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) but darned if it dont seem to fly like they said it did.
dont need to trim it, rolls second to none etc etc etc.
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I gave the A-5 some airtime last night, for the first time actually. It does roll and zoom very well, but it feels very stall prone. As soon as you pull on the stick you hear the stall coming. In other words, it needs a steady hand and careful flying. Strictly for BnZ/E-fighting.
The cannons seem to need a lot more leading than the ones on my G-2. I couldn't hit a damn thing... Might be a convergence setting thing too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
But all in all, this little test I did confirms my feeling that the A-5 is the most dangerous plane in AH at the moment. I have to give it some more time, seems like the A-5 might become my #2 ride... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Camo
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Agreed, Fw 190A-5 is very fun plane to fly, and also very dangerous. It might not be best in all aspects, but is rather jack of all trades.
Its arena record matches its real life reputation. Without icons my guess is that it would be even more effective.
Now, considering pilots' opinions on the Dora, can you imagine how that little beauty would do here ?
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It does roll and zoom very well, but it feels very stall prone
Spot on. A very unstable aircraft in the lateral plane, the 190 was renowned for it's rate of roll and it's control harmonization. However, a very high wing-loading gave the aircraft some truly nasty stall characteristics and poor turn performance.
It's odd, but while 190 pilots in every flightsim I've ever played use the 190 as a BnZ aircraft, the actual Luftwaffe used it as a pure dogfighter. When it was first introduced in numbers in early 1942, 190 equipped Jagdflieger simply jumped on Spitfire V's and ate them up. It was Al Deere (I believe) who made the comment that he had never seen the Germans 'stay and fight it out' like a group of 190 pilots who jumped his squadron during a Circus mission.
The LW used BnZ tactics with the 109, and stuck to classic vertical ACM in the early-model 190. The aforementioned stalling characteristics did discourage the use of hard manuvers close to the ground.
(http://www.cgidesign.net/vadr190.jpg)
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Vadr
Kommandeur, III/JG 2 'Richthofen' (http://personal.inet.fi/cool/jan.nousiainen/JG2/)
S3 Parser (http://www.cgidesign.net/s3/)
Combat Flightsim Business Forum (http://www.egroups.com/group/flightsimsonline)
"Well? Ya gonna pull them pistols or whistle Dixie?"
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The FlugWerk test piot guy said that their 190a8's are brilliantly manouverable and very easily flown, except for the difficult stall.
WWII online may have a 190 that you can throw around the sky.
I personally believe that both WB/AH have sloppy 190 models. Both Franz Stigler and Gabby Gab. told me they were great manouverable aircraft. Their ownly problem was they had NO stall buffeting... they just stalled instantly at high speed.
So all this WB/AH 'fight the stall warning' business is incorrect. You should be able to work the 190 hard in ACM aspects and if you DONT stall then you are ok.
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I dissagree about the A5 being strictly for BnZ/E fighting. Everytime a feild is being vultched, i grab the a5 with 50% feul and 2 20mm cannon. At times i feel sorry for the vulchers at the rate that thing can kill em. This is all on the deck, knife-fighting. Its acelleration is what saves the day, and it turns pretty well too.
In fact when i go BnZ'n i grab my trusty pony (now thats a pure BnZ plane) i would hardly ever entertain the idea of taking a 190 A5 on a long haul BnZ journey.
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Overlord Spatula
if you adhere to all the rules you miss out on all the fun
(http://www.spatula.co.nz/aceshigh/spatula_sig1.jpg)
=357th Pony Express=
[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 07-18-2000).]
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Hey vadr, i have a book that stayed that "this time LW stayed and fought" and it ended with 7 kills for spits and no losses as far as i can remember (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Cuts both ways... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Now seriously - do you really believe it should turn with spit 5 ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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Brendo, Kurt Tank (who admittedly had a lot of 190 stick time) said that after some experience it was easy to anticipate an accelerated stall through changes in stick forces. Since the 190 had very light stick forces, it makes sense that it might take pilots a while to develop this sensitivity, just like in the P-39.
But I agree that the key to success of the 190 against early mark Spits was not riding the stall horn. The keys were vertical maneuverability and high speed maneuverability.
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Now seriously - do you really believe it should turn with spit 5
Of course not, I just think it can dogfight with one. Big difference, if you aren't a Spit Driver (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
We can recount stories from both sides ad nauseum. I can tell you of one instance late in the war where a bunch of P38J drivers whupped JG6's assets in 190s.
The instance I refer to above occured on June 2nd 1942. 403 Canadian Squadron, commanded by BoB veteran Alan Deere, was bounced by I and II JG26 under command of Muncheberg and Seifert. Of the original 12 Spitfires, 8 were lost (including one that crash landed at Manston). Deere's exact statement after the battle was:
Never had I seen the Huns stay and fight it out as these Focke-Wulf pilots were doing.
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Vadr
Kommandeur, III/JG 2 'Richthofen' (http://personal.inet.fi/cool/jan.nousiainen/JG2/)
S3 Parser (http://www.cgidesign.net/s3/)
Combat Flightsim Business Forum (http://www.egroups.com/group/flightsimsonline)
"Well? Ya gonna pull them pistols or whistle Dixie?"
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Originally posted by vadr:
Of course not, I just think it can dogfight with one. Big difference, if you aren't a Spit Driver .
This is SOOOOOOO true. I would never contemplate turnfighting a zeke or an n1k or a spit for that matter. But I dogfight with them 1v1 2v1 3v1 as often as I can in my 190a5 or 190a8. They are both unstable planes, hence both very good MANUVERING planes. Why does a manuver have to be a horizontal turn? Why can't I nose down to keep my speed up and stay at corner velocity? I bet a 190 at corner speed will turn faster than a spit fire going over or under his corner speed.
Of course then there is also the vertical and the roll (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Udie
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Originally posted by Citabria:
dont need to trim it, rolls second to none etc etc etc.
Well, not exactly (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Fw190A8 and A5 both need very few rudder trim, even more if you compare them with a 109G , a Yak9 or (of course (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)) a typhoon.
But needs some left aileron trim in the dives (as the plane tends to roll to the right as it accelerates) and quite a lot of elevator down trim,too (because the nose wants to go up).
Of course that only happens in fast speed changes (I.E. power dives) and it is easy to overcome (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I have noted a better handling in A8,too...Fw190 now its a dream to fly (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Pyro...I love you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(but I'll love you MORE if you bring a D9)
(of course that can convince you on NOT to bring D9)
(Pyro, I dont love you any longer (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
in the roll matter...beware, F4U rolls very fast too (VERY fast), and at high speeds, P38 can roll with a 190...
But apart of that, yes, it rolls VERY fast (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-18-2000).]
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Originally posted by brendo:
I personally believe that both WB/AH have sloppy 190 models. Both Franz Stigler and Gabby Gab. told me they were great manouverable aircraft. Their ownly problem was they had NO stall buffeting... they just stalled instantly at high speed.
I simply think that until 2 versions ago we had the Sturm 190A8 here, and then it was changed to a more standard (and lighter) A8.
It is ONLY an impression I have, I have flown A8 since I joined JG2 and I remember its handling quite worse that it is right now.
Of course it also can be that I was a pathetic dweeb then and only a dweeb now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
But its a feeling I have, that in 1.02 190A8 was more nimble than before.
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well in an 'on the deck' luffberry circle with an A5, my pony could not gain on him, and whn i nu i was losing i extended away, but got ran down by the A5...so the A5 is better in the turn and speed than the pony???
i nu it was an A5, cuz as i was out at d1.1, i cood here his 7.7s hitting me, and the sound of the 7.7s is different than the 13mms
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A-5 is not faster than the P-51, not by a longshot. From my own tests and the HTC charts, the Runstang is 30 to 40 mph faster at all altitudes.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 07-18-2000).]
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Originally posted by [Sg]ShotGun:
so the A5 is better in the turn and speed than the pony???
No, nothing of both them, but remember that if you flat turn and he yoyoes he will win angles on you, and remember also that he might be near his corner speed while you aren't near yours...so it may seem a A5 outturns a P51, but that is not true.
About the speed...P51 topspeed on the deck is 40mph faster than A5's...but A5's acceleration is very good. Until the P51 doesnt reach 340mph it wont start to win the race. Before that Fw's better acceleration can give the pony a serious disgust (as did with you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) )
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Uhh the 190-A5 does require trimming, especially for best turn performance. And despite what some people think it is a very good knife fighter.
Ask anybody, if I get in trouble first thing I do is take the fight to the deck and slug it out nice and close. Of course I usually get caught by the oppotunists nearby :-( . But 1 on 1 a 190 can deal to a co-alt Spit IX, N1K quite easily. Spit 5's just require a bit of vertical fighting.
The great thing in 190 knife fights is that this is the least expected tactic, and people often leave themselves open because the believe the 190 is gonna try to BnZ.
achtung babey
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I find that the BnZ fighters can actually turn extremely well, but only for 1 or 2 turns. Their corner speed is much higher than a spit or zero. Instead of being a disadvantage I find this an advantage. If you don't kill the enemy within a turn or so you will have the speed to run away or go to yo-yos and Immelmans.
IMO the 190A5 is one of the finest fighters in AH, certainly capable of engaging any other fighter in the game with a good chance of success. I fly the p51 mostly and IMO the a5 is the plane I fear the most. When comparing the p51 to the 190a5 I'd say the a5 has an advantage in roll, hitting power, acceleration, durability, climb, and at times turn. The p51 has the advantage in gun balistics, duration of ammo load, visiblity, range, ceiling (not really a factor here), and top speed. I find that the a5 is extremly agile due to its tremendous rate of roll, and can perform vertical manuvers at a lower airspeed than the p51. Not only that but because of its superior acceleration it can stay in the fight with a spit longer than the p51. IMO its only serious drawback is the ballistics of its cannon. They drop extremely quickly compared to the 50s, making snapshots much more difficult. Mainly for this reason I still prefer the p51. (I personally prefer the .50s to cannon in a BnZ fight.)
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Originally posted by bloom25:
IMO its only serious drawback is the ballistics of its cannon.
[rant mode on]
And its hitting power...sometimes seems that those 20mm are worth nothing
[rant mode off]
Apart of that I say that Fw190A5 isn't a fast plane so its ability to break contact sometimes is zero. It is a price to pay for its nimbleness, but I miss A8's speed on the deck
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I kinda like A5's.
Hi; low.. T&B and B&Z...
...I juz luv killin 'em. I especially like that little dance they do, once yah get 'em pinned down. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
I can't wait fer the Dora. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Hang
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(http://207.201.172.230/DL's/1stahsig.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 07-18-2000).]
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<---watches Hangtime put giant spoon back in his coat. He heeee (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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compared to the p51 and 109s it needs almost no trim in the general flying sense.
sure it helps in dogfighting but the extra light controls are modelled in ah
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The damn thing is an awesome Spit killer. As if it has "kill the bloody Dweebfire" code programmed in.
It can beat contemporary Spit IX and Spit V from co-E. Even at disadvantage it can pull tricks if Dweebfire pilot isn't careful (and they usually aren't).
Keep speed up and you can frustrate the stick puller long time. In case things go wrong, point your nose down and get away.
Sadly, A-5 is stacked against P 51D and P 47D, which happen to be newer designs. No wonder it doesn't shine against them, they are not from same era. If those silver things are flown correctly, they can stay untouchable to the A-5. Model the Dora and see how it does against the opportunists.
It would also be nice to see how Dora does vs Spit XIV.
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Originally posted by Hristo:
It would also be nice to see how Dora does vs Spit XIV.
<............................. ...........>
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Realise that a spitdweeb is still a spitdweeb, regardless of the fact that their Spitfire might actually be a superior aircraft... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Keep speed up and you can frustrate the stick puller long time. In case things go wrong, point your nose down and get away.
That will still apply for D-9 vs XIV.
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I dunno how 'well' the LW stuff is really modeled.. I do know that any mistake made in front of a sharp pilot flying anything in this sim, regardless of it's 'era' or origin; means a nylon letdown.
Lets not loose sight of the pilots skill as the factor most pronunced in sucess when he's flying an aircraft he knows intimately. In AH it seems ever more apparent that the specialists in their fav planes have a significant edge over any adversary that does not have the same intimiate knowledge in their own A/C, regardless of type.
Here, In AH, skill steps easily across the fabled 'type-hype' of technology. There are no 'era' barriers. All the planes here are lethal as hell.. in the right hands. And if those hands fly that fly that airplane constantly, they'll have the biggest edge of all.
IMHO. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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(http://www.geocities.com/tas13th/sqsig/hangtime.gif) (http://207.201.172.230/DL's/1stahsig.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 07-19-2000).]
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In AH it seems ever more apparent that the specialists in their fav planes have a significant edge over any adversary that does not have the same intimiate knowledge in their own A/C, regardless of type.
Could not agree more. Well said.
(http://www.cgidesign.net/vadr190.jpg)
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Vadr
Kommandeur, III/JG 2 'Richthofen' (http://personal.inet.fi/cool/jan.nousiainen/JG2/)
S3 Parser (http://www.cgidesign.net/s3/)
Combat Flightsim Business Forum (http://www.egroups.com/group/flightsimsonline)
"Well? Ya gonna pull them pistols or whistle Dixie?"