Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sandman on October 27, 2002, 05:11:40 PM
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Emmitt Smith?
Hmmmph...
IMNSHO, he wouldn't have even been close to this record if Barry Sanders had not walked away from the game.
Any bets that Dallas cuts him next year?
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Earl Cambel
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Tie.. Jim Brown and Barry Sanders.
Can't stand Emitt. Nothing better than being a player that helped drive the need for the "helmet on while on the field" rule.
AKDejaVu
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sure you all could do better :rolleyes:
numbers don't lie and he's got them
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Gale Sayers!
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Gale Sayers!
Go look at Terrell Davis' stats.
He's better than Sayers by the look of 'em.
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Lomu is pretty good, but I'd have to say Christian Cullen is the undisputed best fullback of all time :) . Being the 4th highest try scorer in internationals theres few that challenge.
http://www.nzrugby.co.nz/playersteams/allblacks/2002/bios/cullen_christian.html
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Bo Jackson
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Udie is correct
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In no particular order:
Jim Brown
Earl Campbell
James Thorpe
And if he didn't get injured early in his career, possibly Bo Jackson.
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I think longevity should play a role in it. Bo had the potential to be great... but the hip pointer ended all hopes. I will say that watching him run over Brian Bosworth was perhaps one of my favorite football moments.
Terrell Davis would rank up there if longevity were not an issue.
Other running backs that I think were great:
Marcus Allen
Tony Dorsett
Hershel Walker (USFL was a mistake)
Christian Okoya (SP?)
Larry Csonka
Gale Sayers
Franco Harris
Therman Thomas
John Riggins
Earl Cambel
Most of the rest seem to come and go with their 15 minutes of fame. These guys were there for almost their whole career.
The question should be... of the current crop... who would look good for fitting into this list?
AKDejaVu
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GALE SAYERS:
+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Rushing | Receiving |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 1965 chi | 14 | 166 867 5.2 14 | 29 507 17.5 6 |
| 1966 chi | 14 | 229 1231 5.4 8 | 34 447 13.1 2 |
| 1967 chi | 13 | 186 880 4.7 7 | 16 126 7.9 1 |
| 1968 chi | 9 | 138 856 6.2 2 | 15 117 7.8 0 |
| 1969 chi | 14 | 236 1032 4.4 8 | 17 116 6.8 0 |
| 1970 chi | 2 | 23 52 2.3 0 | 1 -6 -6.0 0 |
| 1971 chi | 2 | 13 38 2.9 0 | 0 0 0.0 0 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| TOTAL | 68 | 991 4956 5.0 39 | 112 1307 11.7 9 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
TERRELL DAVIS
+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Rushing | Receiving |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 1995 den | 14 | 237 1117 4.7 7 | 49 367 7.5 1 |
| 1996 den | 16 | 345 1538 4.5 13 | 36 310 8.6 2 |
| 1997 den | 15 | 369 1750 4.7 15 | 42 287 6.8 0 |
| 1998 den | 16 | 392 2008 5.1 21 | 25 217 8.7 2 |
| 1999 den | 4 | 67 211 3.1 2 | 3 26 8.7 0 |
| 2000 den | 5 | 78 282 3.6 2 | 2 4 2.0 0 |
| 2001 den | 11 | 167 701 4.2 0 | 12 69 5.8 0 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| TOTAL | 81 | 1655 7607 4.6 60 | 169 1280 7.6 5 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
Not that I'm a big fan of Davis or anything... it's just interesting that Sayers is often mentioned as one of the greatest and Davis' numbers are comparable. If longevity is indeed an issue, not sure why it affects Davis but not Sayers.
Gale Sayers is not in the all-time top 50 in any major category.
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For me it's Marcus Allen. Maybe not numbers-wise.... but the intagible stuff...
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OMG... nobody's mentioned sweetness...Walter Payton.
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
The question should be... of the current crop... who would look good for fitting into this list?
Marshall Faulk
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Sandman the answer to your question lies in watching films of Sayers running. He had incredible speed and moves, similar to Barry Sanders but even more creative.
Davis was a good back but he ran in a system that provided him with huge holes due to an agressive passing scheme which put pressure on the defense, and a great offensive line. He was not a "spectacular" back in the sense of Sayers or Sanders. You could plug any good back into that system and they would have had huge numbers.
Sayers was an artist, who would have been spectacular even on the worst team.
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ALL of the above ran with the football .....
only one RB in history did the same, very well when his fro wasn't wound so tight, AND got away with double murder
go OJ! :rolleyes:
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OJ Simpson :) (do not think he is the best, but certainly in the same group as most others mentioned)
Nim
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Barry Sanders
Gale Sayers
If Barry had played 1 or 2 more years, yesterday would have been just another loss for the Cowboys.
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Ah yes... OJ... how could I forget. Er... wait. I remember now.
Walter Payton is a given. Much like Emmitt Smith is a given (like him or not).
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Jim Brown.
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Walter may have not been the greatest running back, but perhaps greatest football player would be more appropriate. There are those who were quicker, stronger, faster -- but not by much. And Walter could switch his style the instant he needed too. Can't go over, go around. Can't go around, then hammer the tackler so he hesitates a bit the next time around. Whatever it takes to win.
Much, if not most, of his career was played without a great offensive line or multi-threat QB. If you want to point out the 85 Bears then be sure to point out the 70s Bears. Walter tended to grind his yards out a handful at a time -- 13 seasons setting rushing records in 4-yard and 10-yard increments, with the occasional spectacular feat. Remember, the defense knew Walter would get the ball at least two downs (sometimes 3) each possession. The Bears had no other offense, so there wasn’t much choice. But Walter didn’t seem to mind. I can remember calling out the plays in front of the TV before the snap - Walter left, Walter right, Walter up the middle -- and being accurate at least 90 percent of the time. I'm sure the defense knew it much better than I. But he still get the 100+ yard games and 1000+ yard seasons. He achieved these feats through force of will, and you got the feeling he would have played for free if he had too, because the game was the most important part of his being a football player. You really had to have seen him play, not just in a highlight film, but in a season full of long, boring over matched games -- to understand what I am talking about.
A few quotes:
"I thought Walter Payton was the greatest football player who ever lived," TV commentator John Madden said. "He did it better than anyone. And he had more fun -- and that combination is a treasure.
"As far as I'm concerned, I thought he was the greatest," Franco Harris said, minutes after former Colts running back Lydell Mitchell phoned Monday with news of Payton's death. "With the teams he played on, and what he did, missing only one or two games his whole career ... and he was a great guy. "We had different styles, but I always enjoyed watching him, the way he ran and the way he played the game," Harris said. "There's no doubt about it, he did it all, running, pass receiving and catching. He was the type of guy who made things happen."
Was he as powerful as Jim Brown?
Probably not.
Was he as fast as O.J. Simpson?
Probably not.
Was he as quick as Tony Dorsett?
Probably not.
But he outdid them all.
Payton was talented, and he was tough. He never went out of bounds on his own. If you were going to hit him, you were going to take a licking. This became his forte.
He took great pride in his conditioning. In his 13 years, he missed only one game due to injury. That's particularly impressive for a running back.
No player ever trained as hard as Payton did. He had his own special hill in the suburbs where he trained, a steep incline where he worked out in secret. When camp opened, he was always the best-conditioned player. There was no feat he couldn't perform. [edit: Other Bear players he took to the “Hill” usually ended up vomiting before they left…]
He was always focused on the job, on winning. When he broke Simpson's individual-game rushing record with 275 yards, they stopped the game and Payton acknowledged his accomplishment. But he insisted they resume play immediately because the Bears were locked in a tough game with Minnesota.
"Let's get on with the game," he said. The Bears won 10-7."
I wonder if this era of the game is gone forever now. A bunch of spoiled millionaires doing their happy dances because they caught a ball 3 yards short of a first down on third down. I don’t recall ever seeing Walter perform a solo “celebration.” He didn’t need to, or want to.
Charon
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Emmitt Smith 150 TD's
Walter Payton 110 TD's
Marcus Allen 127 TD's (could be wrong)
These guys were humble and great on and off the field, they had longevity, toughness, and skill. All of them play injured trying to get the team to win.
Emmit has been on the same team since he was first drafted into the league, through good times and bad for 12 years.
People just don't remember him breaking tackles, spin moves, stutter step. They always think it was just the O-Line (Pah-Lease), look at some old footage of his running, breaking tackles cutting, etc.
Barry had a good yds per carry, but didn't touch the amount of TD's emmitt has. Barry and Emmitt had 2 different rushing styles, hard to compare the two.
Hurts you guys to know a Cowboy broke the record, Payton respected Emmitt and vice-versa.
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Stephen Davis for modern RBs... just doesn't have one of the better teams to boost his stats (hint: Emmit Smith)
-SW
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Stats Schmats
Gale sayers was freakin poetry. He was grace. He was like a swift running stream flowing easily around the boulders. I would rather see Gale in his prime, than anyone else... Period.
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Stephen Davis for modern RBs... just doesn't have one of the better teams to boost his stats (hint: Emmit Smith)
-SW
Davis is good. Too bad he's playing for perhaps the worst coach in the league.
AKDejaVu
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WHAT??? The worst coach in the league???
He'll fun 'n gun every team to... oh yeah, our endzone.
The worst is listening to sport's announcers... every other word is "fun 'n gun"... *sigh* There ain't no fun in losing...
-SW
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Forrest Gump, although he never played pro.
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I've watched every Redskins game this year except for last night (was out). Steven Davis would run for 8 yards on 1st down, then the skins would go to a no-back offense for the next two plays... then punt.
Its to the point that if Davis is behind the qb, he's getting the ball. If he's not, he's not. Kinda makes it easy for the defense to focus on him.
AKDejaVu
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Oh yeah... no doubt... at this point I think all defenses are just saying, "rush if Davis is behind the QB, zone-cover if not"
It's really sad... really... how predictible the Skins offense has become.
-SW
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Originally posted by narsus
Emmitt Smith 150 TD's
Walter Payton 110 TD's
Marcus Allen 127 TD's (could be wrong)
Emmitt has 161 touchdowns ..... just saying :)
He also has 4 rushing titles as compared to Walter with 1 and Barry with 4.
Barry Sanders may have been the best open field runner, but Emmitts the guy to have if you wanted a touchdown.
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deliberately left out his receiving touchdowns out Krusher was just going on rushing, but hey your right.
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Nother couple years Emmett will be able to pass Walter in total yards from scrimage. Emmett will never pass Walter in blocking. ;)
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Hurts you guys to know a Cowboy broke the record, Payton respected Emmitt and vice-versa.
Doesn't hurt at all, though thinking back on Walter's career, and his untimely death still has the full mixture of respect and hurt to this day for me.
Smith is very much in the Walter Payton mold as a player and person both on and off the field. He is a great running back and a great football player. But if you really want to look at statistics, then Jim Brown is clearly the best -- lineman-sized with running back speed to roll over the defenders. Too bad Hollywood was more important to him than football or both Payton and Smith would have had a couple of extra seasons to even be talking about a record. Sanders might have been a contender too, if he had really wanted it that badly. As MT and Funked pointed out, Sayers was perhaps the most gifted natural, agile runner to play the game. He could run 40 yards to get 10. Too bad, like another Bear of the period Dick Butkus, injuries cut short his greatness.
My pick of Payton is in the overall Football Player category. A running back who enjoyed the chance to hit somebody with a block every bit as much as he enjoyed running into the end zone.
Then there was the time Payton ran, caught and threw for a touchdown in a 30-27 loss to Minnesota on Oct. 21, 1979, a feat not matched until 2001.
I'll say it again, as a long-suffering Bear's fan who doesn't have much interest in today's professional sports scene -- you had to be there to see what Walter accomplished with the supporting cast he had on hand in the first half of his career.
As a Bears fan, I would have killed to see a team that was as good as the worst 1990s Dallas team duing the entire first half of Walter's career. Offensive line? Average at best. Backfield? Roland Harper and eventually Matt Suhey provided yeoman’s service, but posed no real threat of their own. Quarterback? WTF is one of those? Receivers? See the QB entry.
I have a vivid memory of those seasons that sums it up. Bears' quarterback "Slo Mo" Bob Avellini (his official sports radio nickname BTW - he was always about a second behind the flow of the game, with an anemic arm) as usual found himself befuddled in the pocket. From the rear camera angle you could see a free path into the end zone, 20 yards away. Dammit Bob! Run! But he doesn't see it until Bears' guard Noah "Budda" Jackson, having completed his assignment, starts waving his hand rapidly (I'm sure he was also saying Dammit Bob!, Run!). Avellini sees the open field finally and runs in to get the TD. The Bears could be painful to watch, but then there was Walter and moments like these for humor :)
In the mid to late 1970s, Walter Payton was the Chicago Bears. Take his single game rushing effort in 1977.
The 1977 season also contained his most impressive individual game effort. On November 20, two days after Payton was bed-ridden with the flu, he ran for 77 first quarter yards against the Minnesota Vikings. By halftime, the total was up to 144. After three quarters, he had 192. In the forth quarter he broke off a 58-yard run to finish the game with 275 yards, two more than OJ Simpson’s already existing record of 273. He finished the game with an incredible 40 carries. (Avellini threw 7 passes)
All of that for a 10-7 game in a typical 500 season. 40 carries was incredible, but then he averaged probably 25 per game anyway. The Bears relied on him so much that he led the league in carries 1976-1979.
Few players seem to want to be the best they can be today. There are always distractions, and theres always the ME factor. Emmitt Smith is a great players and class act for sure, and that was the source of the mutual respect between Smith and Payton. Smith is also a great running back, and for both statistical and non-statistical reasons. But in the eras I have watched, Payton is still at the top of the list IMO where the sheer desire to play football and be the best that one can be while doing it are concerned. His numbers aren't too shabby either.
Charon
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Walter Payton is most likely the best RB of all time. As for the "if" issue with Barry Sanders; if my aunt would have had balls she would have been my uncle.
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Originally posted by Reschke
Walter Payton is most likely the best RB of all time. As for the "if" issue with Barry Sanders; if my aunt would have had balls she would have been my uncle.
Yeah, and IF Earl Cambel weren't the best ever you guys might have an argument... :D
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Originally posted by narsus
deliberately left his receiving touchdowns
well I never even thought of that ... good point
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You know Udie I had forgotten about Earl Campbell. He was an outstanding running back and a true force to deal with in the backfield. So I would have to call it a tie for 1st in my opinion between "Sweetness" and Campbell.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Lomu is pretty good, but I'd have to say Christian Cullen is the undisputed best fullback of all time :) . Being the 4th highest try scorer in internationals theres few that challenge.
http://www.nzrugby.co.nz/playersteams/allblacks/2002/bios/cullen_christian.html
J.P.R. Williams, the Flying Doctor
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Earl was pretty damn good. He is one of my all time favorites. I love it when he appears on ESPN's NFL Films shows.
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Originally posted by funkedup
Earl was pretty damn good. He is one of my all time favorites. I love it when he appears on ESPN's NFL Films shows.
Especially that one vid where Jack Tatum pastes him. :)
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Originally posted by funkedup
Earl was pretty damn good. He is one of my all time favorites. I love it when he appears on ESPN's NFL Films shows.
When I was 8 or 9 my mom's boyfriend had 3 season tickets every year in the same seats. We were at the game that was a monday night football game oilers vs. rams. The game where they always use that hilight of him getting his jersey ripped off as he's running it all the way in for the TD. That was back in the big love ya blue craze :D I still remember seeing that :D
[edit]
The Oilers were the only team to go to the playoffs 13 years in a row!!!! And never made it to the big game :( I'll never forget that fateful sunday. My roommate and I were driving back from deer hunting. We listened to the first 1/2 of the game on the radio and I was just stoked that my Oilers were finaly going to go to the super bowl. Well when we got hom I turned on the tv to check the score and watch in horor at the fact that the had given up what 37 points in 1 quarter? That ended football for me...
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one has to factor in quality of offensive line when gauging RB quality. Emmit's rings, and almost everyone's superbowl rings are due to excellent offensive line. John Riggins was a fantastic RB (definitly best RB with a mowhawk ever) in '83 w/ the 'skin - nearly unstopable - much less so w/ the Jets, but Earl Cambel would have made the yards in an 8 wideout offense, were it legal. he went out of his way to plow through linebackers they way most RBs go out of their way to avoid the LB. thats why he is the best. i've heard similar stories about Jim Brown, but i never saw him play
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Originally posted by Krusher
Barry Sanders may have been the best open field runner, but Emmitts the guy to have if you wanted a touchdown.
Actually, Jim Brown was the guy to have if you wanted a Touchdown. He averaged 1 TD per game. Emmit averages .83 TDs a game, and poor Barry had trouble with the end zone, averageing a mere .71 TD per game.
-Sik
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http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/dr_z/news/2002/10/25/drz_insider/
SI's Dr. Z weights in, and for ONCE I agreee with him :)
-Sik