Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: brady on October 27, 2002, 07:41:35 PM
-
Ya I know it has been debated to death, but imo the Larger maps are the only way we can go in the future for AH the smaller maps we have now are just to small for the prime time crowd, they do not apeal to me at all in fact I generaly log when i see the numbers playing on them now. The quake still battles do not apeal to me that they foster. The best part of the Pizza map is the fact that you can find whatever kind of battle you want on it. Furbals in one spot with large atacks going on , and great GV action, and small unit battles all over the place. On the smaller maps I generaly have no choice but to partake in a huge battle, on the larger map I do.
So having said that I want to thank those responsable for the map and all the hard work they have done to help make AH a better place, I think no matter how you feal about the Pizza map you must conced that it was indead done with betterment of the game in mind and that their effort to that end must be saluated.
-
I hate to be the one who has to remind you, but AH is a 24-hour a day game. At off-peak hours, when there's 80 players online, Pizza map is like a ghost town. Even with 150-250 online (which is most the time) the level of action is inadequate. In fact the Pizza map is ONLY good when there's 400+ online IMO.
As for "larger maps being the only option"....I disagree. They are ONE option. Other options include things such as having more than a single Main arena and using maps with more "front" area to reduce the density of the action (look at how much of the total map area Mindanao actually USES). Just because you'd prefer to see larger maps used more doesn't make them the only option available, and you'd be silly to think that large maps aren't without their problems (nothing is perfect).
Regardless, I will agree that something has to give....the current setup of the MA is reaching its practical limit. It'll be interestingto see what changes are in store. Perhaps the Mission arena will reduce the numbers crunch in the MA.
J_A_B
-
IMHO, I think an alternative criteria for map resets should also be considered.
-
I disagree Brady.
I can see your points, but as a participant in the CT arena on a regular basis your views as to what works, what is fun, are alot different than mine.
Where lots of people is fun in my view, few people ( or a large map ) is your view.
Ying and yang, with the yangs view being more prevelant..
It's one map in the rotation, one map of that size is "ok"...
As a steady diet, I might as well fly the CT :D
-
Well of course their are options, imo the larger size, no mater how it may be laied out is the best option, we nead more fields than the smaller ones can suport to disperse the numbers, the ever increasing numbers.
The numbers during non peak times are always an issue no mater what map is in use certainly 80 people in the main in the wee hours of the morning are to few for even the small maps, so this argument for keeping a smaller map is kinda week to imo.
The idea of having 2 main's imo would not work well, it dident work to well in FA and they had a much larger player base, one areana was always comparatively unused, players always went to the areana with more numbers in it because theire was more action in that areana, also imagine the milk runing in an unsed area during no peek time.
Larger maps have problems yes, but it is more I think to with them having to spend more time to find their way into battle than anything else, the smaller maps are easer to read on the clipboard, you nead not studdy the map to find the fight you want.
It is the old path of least resastance thing.Perhaps a revised interface for reading the clipboard for the larger maps.A larger clipboard map for instance.
I must say that I do not think the Mishion Areana will impact the MA in a substantial way, espichaly with AH's ever increasing player base.
Anything I say or any point I bring up is always just My opinion.Kinda like everybody else who post's on the BBS:)
-
poopster, the point being on the larger map thier is a choice for what kind of battle you want, on the smaller ones their is no choice, the best fights in the CT are when their are larger numbers in attandance, granted good fun and fights can be had with 10 to 20 people on but get 50 to 70 in their and it is a blast:)
Just because I am on the CT staff does not mean I do not appricate the situation in the MA nore does it mean I like less populated battles, I like both furballs and smaller actions, I simply tire of the constant furbals on the smaller maps in the MA at present.
-
No problem Brady :)
We're the opposite in our views in a very big way. Where you believe primetime numbers on the small maps it too much. I believe the numbers on the small maps during primetime brings out the best the Main has to offer..
Go figure..
-
Ya were totaly aposed their poopster, Hopefully HTC can find us both a happy medieum:)
-
(http://members.shaw.ca/gcornish/pics/gayness.jpg)
-
I agree with you brady. Despite the opinons to the contrary, the Pizza map is a great map even during non-peak hours. The people that favor this map increase with every rotation. After Pizza was reset today NDIsles rotated through, and the evidence that it is out of date hit Bishops like a ton of bricks.
Shutup GayMan (heh, it was just too easy).
-
One of the biggest problems AH has right now is that the numbers online fluctuate so much. During off-peak hours, even the 256 maps are too big, during prime time, the 512 maps are a requirement.
Overall, the larger maps are the best solution right now. They eliminate some of the furballing, but there is always a good furball for those who choose to do so. Unlike the small maps, akdesert gives EVERYONE an opportunity to do what they want to, not just those who want to furball. So while it does hurt the furballs a bit, it helps everything else vastly. On the other hand, the small maps, especially during peak hours, are completly worthless for anyone who doesn't want to dive into a 50 player furball.
Another big problem is tactics. Often without missions, the players are clueless as to where to go(Sheep, all of ya) The small maps there is almost always a clear direction that is best to move in, on akdesert, there are so many possible places to attack, that a coordinated attack can be difficult. The 512 maps are maps that the players have to learn to play, it's far more complicated than the 256 maps.
The best map size right now is probably something between 256 and 512. Future maps will need to be designed for 500 players, as much as for 100 players, a difficult but possible problem.
-
I won't argue that the Pizza "size" map is not without worth. I just don't like the AK map. Nothing against them or the makers hard work. I just think the map can be boring at best. Thats actually an improvement from before ... maybe I'll grow to .. naaa :p
Pirate //BK\\
-
Voss- lol Bish win 3 maps in a row, the 3rd being akdesert & the knits/rooks decide to take turns giving each other kneepad service in a co/op Vs bish. What THAT has to do with numbers in relation to map size I have NO idea.
At any rate I feel the akdesert map is great during peak hours & very boring the other 5 days a week. I would like to say to anyone who cares to knock the akdesert map "show me the 1 you made that is better" Wich leads us to another point- if the AKs can design a map why cant yer squad, or mine. HTC was nice enuff to make available a mapmaker program, quit squeakin about what exists & come up with a solution!
Anton
-
knook co/op doesnt make Ndisle outdated either-:rolleyes:
-
NDIsles was reset in under 3hours (closer to 2) during a peak weekend period. Under those conditions it is too small and therefore outdated.
-
Voss -
Your either to ignorant or too arrogant to admit that the ONLY reason Ndisle was reset that fast is because knits & rooks were not fighting each other. The knit rook front was COMPLETELY inactive the first hour of that map, wich by that time many bish lost interest & logged. If knits & rooks did that everyday it would be bish that had low numbers instead of rooks. I am sure however that if you refuse to realize this fact at this point, my post will not change anything. So please resume the spewing of non-logic.
Anton
-
Originally posted by Voss
NDIsles was reset in under 3hours (closer to 2) during a peak weekend period. Under those conditions it is too small and therefore outdated.
Bah you're wrong here.
It works like clockwork.
Whenever the bishops get a win or two in a row, or a particularly embarrassing win, the rooks and knights band together, and reset us in a couple hours, untill we get our crap together and do it all over again.
Like clockwork.
-
I don't think that the pizza map gives choice to everyone. I think it severly limits early war plane use and.... it destroys large fights between fields.
In the pizza map you are much better off joining a gangbang/milkrun than trying to find a large fight between fields where early planes do well. defense is ok with early war planes but I have found that I either have to go to the bad guys field or try to defend from a mob of high, late war, B&Zers. If I go to them... it is best to have a fast plane to get home in.
If you fly late war fast planes then the pizza map is your speed. the fights are spread out (if you avoid the gangbangs and milkrunners). I don't like the late war planes that much and I don't like small fights and I don't like long periods of inactivity. so for me... the pizz map is the worst.
lazs
-
Don't know about the size, but it sure is hard to look at.
-
Originally posted by lazs2
the pizz map is the worst.
lazs
Finally something I can agree with Lazs on
-
Sorry, Anton. I don't believe that it should be possible for any map to be reset in a few hours, whether two teams cooperate or not.
You can take that ignorance/arrogance ramark and shove it up your MAW! :D
-
Lazs I will reply to your paragraph above with this line:
"Funny, I find that situation on any and every map."
When you find a map that isn't largely dominated by late war monsters, I would really like to know... as it is, that's all anyone flies on any map.
-SW
-
"If you fly late war fast planes then the pizza map is your speed"
Take a look at what I fly Lazs--I don't like AKDESERT at all :)
J_A_B
-
I believe that people don't fly the late war monsters where there is a good fur between fields or off the CV's. If they do... they are pretty much ignored until things thin out. The pizza map is so barren of good fights that it makes the late war monmsters more effective and the early war planes less so. I don't really think that can be disputed.
lazs
-
It's a bandwidth issue. If there are N planes closely confined, then N*(N-1) position updates have to be transmitted over the net EVERY SINGLE CLOCK TICK.
Obviously, if HTC doesn't want their network saturated with position updates, they have to limit the number of planes that can see each other. When I say "see each other," I don't mean see icons, I mean see a dot.
If you get the airplane density high enough, they'll have to crank the viewing radius down to some ridiculously small number (400 yards?).
Doesn't that sound like fun? :) -- You don't see someone until he's 400 yards away from you.
I think a large fraction of the AH population would furball continuously given the opportunity. A large fraction of 200 players is probably manageable. A large fraction of 500 players creates problems and I suspect (don't know for sure) that we have them to thank for HTC network saturation.
I think HTC should give each of the furballing crowd a bar of soap and a dark room and let them entertain each other. :D
I'm not saying furballing isn't valid entertainment, it's just that I don't see how current network technology can support the current numbers (and more OTW) in Aces High without encountering problems -- especially if we continue with small maps.
It will be fun to watch HTC solve this problem. It's a social engineering problem really (given current network technology) and it will be interesting to wach the solution unfold.
HTC, if you're reading this, don't forget the bar of soap and water for Lazs. :D
curly
-
Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
When you find a map that isn't largely dominated by late war monsters..
Wulfe the map may be dominated by late war monsters, but the trick is to find pockets where there are none.
CV/base battles on the smaller maps are for the most part devoid of the monsters. Lots of blue.
Interesting in the fact that the majority of combatents from the base are blue also. A pocket of midwar planes. The 51's are there, but there out of their element, and are pretty much fodder. Or suiciding the base :D
Those pockets of midwar fights are nonexistant in the desert map.
-
The elevations of the many of the fields in the pizza map make early war planes less viable than they are on other maps.
-
Yup 512x512 is the WTG...but that damned pizza map is an abomination. I dislike it rather intently.
Too bad the world of AH 512x512 maps had to ride in on that dog.
-
Originally posted by Gman
(http://members.shaw.ca/gcornish/pics/gayness.jpg)
I always wondered what the "G" in "Gman" stood for. Now I know.
-
Well the pizza map terrain may be boring and ugly but at least there seems to be more lag.
-
The Pizza is not much fun. And it only works what - 10% of the playing time - during peak weekend hours?
The rest of the time its milkrun hell. And I do participate to simply speed up the resetting of this map.
You can logon to pizza, and spend several hours capturing bases, sometimes unopposed, sometimes during peak hours even.
Things that don't work for me:
- 12k bases are complete BS
- map starts of with 6 fronts for each country
- CVs have no room to move, easily torpedoed because they're stuck 'in a moat', you can't sneak a CV round for a sneak attack
- spawn points system setup in a way which only the AKs understand (once you start figuring it out then you can start rolling a country easily)
- You can spend a lot of time doing nothing but grabbing bases with GVs (the M3 runs on V bases are ridiculously easy)
- HQs are easily reached and flattened once you take a corner of someones slice
- CVs are ineffective, as they are easily spotted, and there are very little low level bases for them to attack
Pizza is a combination of a bad attempt to force strategy, to many fronts when numbers are below 300, bases at ridiculous altitudes, and they cripple one of AHs great features: naval wars.
-
curly... no map puts 200 planes, much less 500, within view of each other. Thje pizza map is mostly 2-6. two to six is pretty boring all the time. the smaller maps, even when a cv is close and a field is hotly contested never have more than about 30 or so planes in sight... far from 200-500.
Take the pizza map and carve off the bottom third and use that bottom for early war only planes. Put a 50k mountain range in between the early and late war areas... In the early war area, double the field density.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
Take the pizza map and carve off the bottom third and use that bottom for early war only planes. Put a 50k mountain range in between the early and late war areas... In the early war area, double the field density.
lazs
Hey lazs
Lazs, that was one of my early suggestions when we were thinking about AKDesert - Take the big island (like in Ndisles) and put a 20k mountrain range around it. It took HTC about a nanosecond to shoot that idea down. :D
Ndisles size maps, given the current numbers, promote large, bandwidth numbing furballs.
I hear the non-US guys say "well, when we're logged in, there's only 50 guys." Tell me guys, when you're building a dam, how high do you build it? Do you build it so that it overflows everyday?
The majority of the customer base is in the arena from 5:00 pm to midnight (CST +/- a hour.) It makes good business sense to me to make sure this segment of the player base is happy. It makes good business sense not to piss on any segment of your population, including those who fly at less popular times.
I'll bet HTC figures something out that will maximize player satisfaction and minimize player complaints. It will be fun to watch it happen.
curly
-
curly.. when I talked to HT about it he didn't seem so adverse to the idea once I explained how it could work. Anyhow... there are variables... things change all the time and one thing effects another... what might not have worked 6 months ago... would work now. Older ideas are worth rehashing.
lazs
-
lazs, a question for you. Do you consider the N1K2 a late war monster too? It's almost always present in the furball.
-
Actually Curly when I log on its usually 160-300. And still with these numbers the same crap applies.
And it still doesn't address the non-player-number issues I've posted above.
Originally posted by AKcurly
I hear the non-US guys say "well, when we're logged in, there's only 50 guys." Tell me guys, when you're building a dam, how high do you build it? Do you build it so that it overflows everyday?
-
Small maps are way too little, unless you are a bishop. There were over 120 bishops alone at 5:00 EST your choices were get murdered or log off. It's getting easier to say log off.
-
Originally posted by Vulcan
Things that don't work for me:
- 12k bases are complete BS
- map starts of with 6 fronts for each country
- CVs have no room to move, easily torpedoed because they're stuck 'in a moat', you can't sneak a CV round for a sneak attack
- spawn points system setup in a way which only the AKs understand (once you start figuring it out then you can start rolling a country easily)
- You can spend a lot of time doing nothing but grabbing bases with GVs (the M3 runs on V bases are ridiculously easy)
- HQs are easily reached and flattened once you take a corner of someones slice
- CVs are ineffective, as they are easily spotted, and there are very little low level bases for them to attack
Good points...
The only thing I can add to this is that the overall color scheme needs to be addressed. There are far too many people complaining that the map colors 'hurt' their eyes. IMO, toning down the contrasting colors would be a quick way to 'fix' the map for these people...me included.
-
Yes the collor issue is very important to me, I sugest HTC do an indepth study, higher a specialist to help design a collor pallet that can effect our mood, personaly I would like to become more aroused while flying, perhaps in this way I can spend more time in game as apposed to surfing porn on long flight's.:::)
-
Originally posted by brady
Yes the collor issue is very important to me,
Maybe if the color scheme gave you headaches too you'd be a bit more sympathetic to those that have this problem.
It's real, more than just a few players have this problem with AKDesert.
The color scheme is too busy and the color combinations are too contrasty. Now, if you have 19 year old eyes it MAY not be a problem with you, but if you're like me and getting close to 60, your eyes tend to tire more easily...that fatigue is often accompanied by headaches...
That explain it a bit better for ya?
-
Originally posted by AKcurly
I'll bet HTC figures something out that will maximize player satisfaction and minimize player complaints. It will be fun to watch it happen.
curly
Yep that comes with the HTC road trip we are on , it's been a mostly great ride so far , looking forward all I can see is more of the same .
-
How about this? Green for down, blue for up, and 5k starts and cannon for everyone!
Blutik
-
AKDesert was design by the Versace Camou Department.
Do you know how much lovin AKSw and AKNimitz had to put out to get it done for free!?!?!
Next time you're flying over the the pizza, and the colours start giving you headaches, just think "This is nothing compared to the discomfort from the 4 inch buttplug AKSw AKNimitz now have to wear".
Originally posted by brady
Yes the collor issue is very important to me, I sugest HTC do an indepth study, higher a specialist to help design a collor pallet that can effect our mood, personaly I would like to become more aroused while flying, perhaps in this way I can spend more time in game as apposed to surfing porn on long flight's.:::)
-
Originally posted by Vulcan
Next time you're flying over the the pizza, and the colours start giving you headaches, just think "This is nothing compared to the discomfort from the 4 inch buttplug AKSw AKNimitz now have to wear".
ROFLMAO
Now, make that image in my head go away :D
-
Originally posted by Vulcan
Next time you're flying over the the pizza, and the colours start giving you headaches, just think "This is nothing compared to the discomfort from the 4 inch buttplug AKSw AKNimitz now have to wear".
It's nothing with a lil' KY...(http://smilies.networkessence.net/cwm/cwm/eek3.gif) or so Nimitz tells me....
-SW
-
Originally posted by Vulcan
Things that don't work for me:
- 12k bases are complete BS
This changes the way fighting happens, instead of the "on the deck under 5k" fights that dominate the other map, it brings higher altitude fighters into more importance.[/b]
- map starts of with 6 fronts for each country
And does a wonderfull job of making gangbanging more difficult, especially at the beginning of the map.[/b]
- CVs have no room to move, easily torpedoed because they're stuck 'in a moat', you can't sneak a CV round for a sneak attack
True enough, it'd be nice to see a 512 map based around island hopping and naval combat, rather than somer water just thrown in.[/b]
- spawn points system setup in a way which only the AKs understand (once you start figuring it out then you can start rolling a country easily)
It's not that complicated, actually it's pretty simple, besides a few bugs which let GV's spawn too close[/b]
- You can spend a lot of time doing nothing but grabbing bases with GVs (the M3 runs on V bases are ridiculously easy)
So? GV raids are usually pretty easy to stop, and a lone M3 headed to a VH is even easier.[/b]
- HQs are easily reached and flattened once you take a corner of someones slice
So dont give up the slice. HQ's are only easily reached because nobody cares untill the lights go out. That's not the maps problem.
[/b]
- CVs are ineffective, as they are easily spotted, and there are very little low level bases for them to attack
True they're easy to spot, but they're very effective, and most coastal bases are at sea level. But again, the map is obviously not built for CV's.[/b]
-
nifty... for now I only want an area that is for early war planes only.. the nik is not an early war plane.
lazs
-
Size is great, but…
There are two main problems:
1) The number of front lines.
2) The number of GV spawns.
-
I like the pizza map, but IMO it has one major short coming. This short coming is that I can not get a overall feel of what is going on. Getting a tactical and strategic feel for the war is something that I enjoy.
Perhaps this is one intention of the pizza map?
However; as a feedback item for HTC I think that it would be more enjoyable if they could add a full screen size map displayl. My thoughts would be to include another button on the clipboard that would toggle the map to full screen and vice versa back to the normal clipboard.
-
then we should keep the maps incredibly crouded.
AH is based on a late war plane set. Late war air battles ussually involved large numbers of planes.
The 1 on 1s that often occure on the pizza map were very rate in real life.
How about some Historical MA Maps? Like a map of North Africa or, or ... Europe! who would have thought of that?
-
The problem with making a Historical map is you have a 3 sided war. theres no way to use a Historically accurate slice of land and equally divide it up in 3 parts WITHOUT 1 or more sides complaining how they got the "lovely" end of the stick.
Oh, and nix the "random" sides getting a different slice after the reset, you'll still get the whines.
NUTTZ
Originally posted by AtmkRstr
then we should keep the maps incredibly crouded.
AH is based on a late war plane set. Late war air battles ussually involved large numbers of planes.
The 1 on 1s that often occure on the pizza map were very rate in real life.
How about some Historical MA Maps? Like a map of North Africa or, or ... Europe! who would have thought of that?
-
Their is absoluty Nothing Historical about the MA other than the planes in it, even the way the planes interact with them selfs the enviourment, GV's PT's and ships is unhistorical, and in some cases compleatly unrealistic and gameafied, not syaing this all bad, just stating the obvious.
-
The larger maps are not the problem with the pizza.. AKdesert is a little mapX10, so u get too many places to be, and not enough reasons to be there.
It does take 400+ to make larger maps fun do date.. but thats cause the one we have is all boundries and no borders. Lose a zone.. so what.. there's 20 more to choose from.
I'm reluctant to post anything negitave because it sounds like im slamming akdesert,(which i dont like, but it is ground-breaking)
(toot toot)
I'm working on a large map (pangia) that tries to address the vast congestion of akdesert. I placed several island chains that must be captured to effectively invade other zones. this will centralize the night fight over the islands where distances are short and fields are few, while the day fight (400+) will quickly overrun them and move the battle to the mainlands where frontlines can be held or broken depending on team tactics.
My primary goal was to build a map that could not be 'stolen' but must be won, while allowing low head count times to enjoy some close quarters combat, and even space for the occasional 1 on 1 in the middle of nowhere.
If you'd like a sneak peek, check the map editing section @
most-wanted.org (http://most-wanted.org)