Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: funkedup on October 27, 2002, 08:34:55 PM
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Awww, they look so peaceful.
(http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20021027/mdf136464.jpg)
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The best part IMO is that since the CX/BN/BX gas likely incapacited a lot of the hostage takers, the Russians obviously went ahead and just executed them where ever they found them laying unconsious.
YAY!!!
GO Spetznaz go!!!
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Yep, IMHO US counter-terror forces could take a lesson.
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They didnt torture them that we know of, so they are showing progress (if they did not torture some of them).
is it true the gas killed many hostages?
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Any speculation what the agent was ? BZ maybe ?
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I just read that 115 hostages died from exposure to the agent. So it can't be BZ with a mortality rate that high . In fact it doesn't sound like they used an incapacitating agent at all. Could they possibly have deployed low dose GB ? Any former NBC guys here ?
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Originally posted by Samm
I just read that 115 hostages died from exposure to the agent. So it can't be BZ with a mortality rate that high . In fact it doesn't sound like they used an incapacitating agent at all. Could they possibly have deployed low dose GB ? Any former NBC guys here ?
Keep in mind that it was used in enclosed space, with weakened people inside (they hadn't ate much at all for the time they were hostages)
So even lesser agent could cause deaths when people aren't fit and when it's a building like theater.
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Yeah but 100% casualties from a drowsy gas ? I don't think so . I think they decided to use GB or something similar and make a speedy decon . Not saying it was a bad decision, in fact it seemed to work very well, lets just hope the rest of the hostages pull through .
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Funked, that bastards were not Moslims.
They call themself Moslims to get financial support from Saudi Arabia and worldwide terrorist organisations. Did you see the bottle of Armenian brandy in Barayev's hand?
Most of Caucasian Moslim nations hate them. They cultivate the Saudi version of Islam, called Vakhhabism, since early 90s, a religion that is alien to Caucasus.
I am glad they all were killed. Otherwise European "human-right activists" and "humanists" will not let us execute them.
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Nah, they'd be "shot while trying to escape."
Or they'd "slip on a bar of soap in the prison shower and accidentally land on three bullets which all managed to lodge in the back of their head."
;)
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Unfortunately, Salman Raduyev, the gang-leader who took hostages in a hospital in Kizlyar in 1996 got only 25 years of prison... So far he is the only high-ranked Chechen gang-leader who was caught alive.
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Boroda - you're not supposed to dispel any of the current anti-Islamic nonsense bandied about these boards. For god's sake, join in with the ignorance:
Kill the infidel...err... Muslims! Yeah, kill the infidel Muslims!
There's more to all this than religion. Even as a non-theistic person, I believe you can't judge an entire religion by the actions of a few nut-jobs with a particular axe to grind.
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I have deepest respect to Moslims
Again: they are not Moslims. They call themselves Moslim to get support from abroad.
Islam isn't different from many other religions, and you can find very interesting things in Koran...
30% of the population of Russian Federation are Moslim.
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Geez, where did all the conservatives go? Looks like your small minded, bigotted, little hate fest might have been directed at the wrong people! Gasp, I'm filled with shock. :rolleyes:
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Go Ice fish and play Hockey and let the rest of us live in the real world.....you are a complete moron....
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Boroda,
If they are Wahabi then they are Muslim. It is wishful thinking to say that 'real' Muslims hate Wahabis. I'd like to see any Muslim source that denounces Wahabism.
ra
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Originally posted by 28sweep
Go Ice fish and play Hockey and let the rest of us live in the real world.....you are a complete moron....
No you don't. You live in a fantasy world where ALL of Islam is seen as a threat. Even then you don't know who's Islamic and whose not. Sorry thickie, sorry but you might have to actually think a little, read little, be a bit more informed before forming opinion.
If not jumping to conclusions makes me a moron. Then so be it.
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Originally posted by ra
If they are Wahabi then they are Muslim. It is wishful thinking to say that 'real' Muslims hate Wahabis. I'd like to see any Muslim source that denounces Wahabism.
ra
http://www.islamfortoday.com/60minutes.htm
Vali Nasir: Wahabism tends to produce increasingly that kind of stark view of what is right and what is wrong.
Bradley: Vali Nasir, a Muslim and Professor of Political Science at the University of San Diego, is an expert on Islamic extremist movements.
Nasir: It's more likely to support the kinds of violence that the majority of Muslims don't believe their faith actually supports.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
If not jumping to conclusions makes me a moron. Then so be it.
no you stupid moron, you make you a moron. jeeeeeez
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Thrawn, a picture is worth a thousand words...
(http://bimmer.roadfly.org/libs/stfupromo2.jpg)
:D
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Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
Kill the infidel...err... Muslims! Yeah, kill the infidel Muslims!
Dowding...this is something that truely pisses me off about the radical Musilms and offers some insight into their faith.
We Christians USED to refer to Musilms as HEATHENS back in the middle ages...INFIDELS is what they call us TODAY. So...change your post to Kill the HEATHEN Musilms and you might spark a better reaction....infidels is their phrasiology.
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From Datter:
Islamic interpretations allow for killing of Prisoners.
On the Islamic internet site http://www.qoqaz.com which is hostile towards the Russians, and is probably run by Chechens, there are a number of unsigned articles which deal with Islam’s position towards prisoners. Drawing
upon Islamic religious sources; e.g., the Koran and its interpretations as well as other traditions about the Prophet’s conduct, the articles advocate a position which permits the killing of prisoners if their killing benefits
the Muslims. The following are the main elements in the articles:
“A Guide to the Perplexed about the Permissibility of Killing Prisoners”
In an article titled “A Guide to the Perplexed Regarding the Permissibility of Killing Prisoners,” which appeared in the column “Jihad News from the Land of the Caucasus(1)” the author suggests that the Islamic religious scholars present five different alternatives, drawn from the various interpretations of the Koran:
1) A polytheist prisoner must be killed. No amnesty may be granted to him, nor can he be ransomed.
2) All infidel polytheists and the People of the Book (i.e., Jews and Christians) are to be killed. They may not be
granted amnesty, nor can they be ransomed.
3) Amnesty and ransom are the only two ways to deal with prisoners.
4) Amnesty and ransom are possible only after the killing of a large number of prisoners.
5) The Imam, or someone acting on his behalf, can choose between killing, amnesty, ransom or enslaving the
prisoner.
Killing a Prisoner for the Sins of Others is Permissible The last position is the one preferred by the author who explained that the Prophet Muhammad had dealt with the prisoners in different ways to maximize the benefits to Muslims.
He gives examples regarding the methods that the Prophet Muhammad had chosen to kill, grant amnesty, or ransom prisoners.
The author finds it necessary to present the subject in reaction to an Islamic criticism “which had torn his heart” about the execution of nine [Russian] prisoners after the Russian Government had refused to surrender “one of Russia’s biggest criminals and crooks.”
According to the author, [the Chechens] have executed the prisoners not because of their heart’s desire, but because they have seen a benefit for the Muslims in such an act.
In reaction to the arguments made by some critics that no one should be punished for the sins of others, the author maintains that Allah permits the killing of a prisoner because he is a prisoner, and all the more so if his killing for the sins of others serves an important Islamic interest, as well as a deterrent (to the enemy). He brings examples from actions of the Prophet. A state of war justifies actions of the sort that could guarantee the security of the soldiers of Islam. Moreover, only with such action is it possible to protect the honor of Muslims.(2)
In an article titled “Are Hostages Prisoners?” the author explains the concept of “hostages” in its modern application to local kidnapped individuals and foreigners who are held as a means of pressure to achieve specific goals. According to him, he who was kidnapped in accordance with Islamic law should be considered a hostage,and hence a prisoner, who should be treated in the manner that would bring benefits to the Muslims.(3)
Endnotes:
(1) In an article titled “Prisoners in Islam” the author indicates that there are five methods that Islam proposes for dealing with prisoners: release without ransom, ransom, killing, enslavement or subjugation to the authority of the Islamic state. The method changes according to circumstances but it has to be one that brings the greatest benefits to Muslims. For example, if amongst the prisoners there is someone who is strong and is likely to tantalize the Muslims and his keeping alive may cause harm to them, his killing will be the preferred method.
If there is someone who is weak but wealthy, ransoming him is the best method. If there is someone who holds a favorable view of Muslims and could help them and their prisoners, amnesty is the best method. If there are those who could render a service, such as women and children, enslavement is the best method.
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Originally posted by Udie
no you stupid moron, you make you a moron. jeeeeeez
No moron! You moron, moron. Ooga ugh!
*starts throwing feces at Udie*
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Originally posted by Samm
Yeah but 100% casualties from a drowsy gas ? I don't think so . I think they decided to use GB or something similar and make a speedy decon . Not saying it was a bad decision, in fact it seemed to work very well, lets just hope the rest of the hostages pull through .
100%?
Something like 700 lived, with many in hospital..
isn't that more like 15-17% casualty rate?
Boroda,
Do you really believe in that yourself?
I bet those captured terrorists will dissapear somewhere and after short while nobody remembers to ask about them anymore.
Remember that Putin is ex-KGB agent.
(why else do you think TV companies in russia are suddenly again under goverments observation?)
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Midnight,
That guy doesn't speak too loudly against Wahabism. He sounds downright Clintonian in his choice of vague words. The fact that they had to go to San Diego to find a Muslim to make even a tepid denouncement of extremism shows how tolerant Muslims are of other Muslims' jihads against infidels. It's like the Muslim spokesmen who say that 'the killing of innocents is prohibited by the Koran', yet you can't pin them down to define who is 'innocent'.
Not that I think these Chechens were on a jihad, they were just bandits.
ra
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Originally posted by Fishu
(why else do you think TV companies in russia are suddenly again under goverments observation?)
Ahhh, because they see what a joke the USA's media is? How it turns into a freaking circus just for that almightly $$? Just a wild guess, mind you. ;)
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Thrawn,
Your from a country that's only international crises has been the figure skating scandal in the Olympics. You inbred-Canuks are not complex enough to understand the world and its complex issues. I think the cold weather freezes your peanut brains. Please just concentrate on things that you know: ice fishing, being jealous of Americans oh and my new favorite-exploiting aboriginal people of N. America (ya I heard about your government stealing Indian baby's in Vancouver and torturing them).
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Originally posted by Thrawn
No moron! You moron, moron. Ooga ugh!
*starts throwing feces at Udie*
*Udie ducks just as Dowding walks behind him* :D
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Originally posted by 28sweep
Thrawn,
Your from a country that's only international crises has been the figure skating scandal in the Olympics. You inbred-Canuks are not complex enough to understand the world and its complex issues.
Hey thickie, guess we are complex enough undstand the difference between an international incident and domestic one. You see, Chechnya it's a part of Russia. The chechnyians want to separtate from Russia. I imagine that is why the Russian authorites refer to the terrorist as "rebels".
Hmm, wonder if Canada has any experience with violent domestic terrorists that are fighting for seperation? Oh, wait, yes we do.
I think the cold weather freezes your peanut brains. Please just concentrate on things that you know: ice fishing, being jealous of Americans
"ASHINGTON (AP) -- Murder, rape and every other violent criminal act except aggravated assault rose last year, the FBI said Monday in reporting the first year-to-year increase in overall crime in a decade.
The number of murders increased for the second straight year, following several years of decline, according to the FBI, which compiles its annual survey from crimes reported by 17,000 law enforcement agencies nationwide. "
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/10/28/fbi.crime.report.ap/index.html
My jealousy overwhelms me. It's not really fair though as I'm sure this is Clinton's fault.
ya I heard about your government stealing Indian baby's in Vancouver and torturing them
First I've hear about, got a link for that?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Geez, where did all the conservatives go? Looks like your small minded, bigotted, little hate fest might have been directed at the wrong people! Gasp, I'm filled with shock. :rolleyes:
Of course when dozens of people on this board bash Catholicism and Christianity repeatedly, you say nothing. I suppose they are open minded, unprejudiced, and have no hate. :rolleyes:
But when I quote President Bush in an ironic way, here come the Thought Police...
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"
Can't speak for all liberals, but I don't support any religious right, wether they are Christian, Jew or Muslim.
There are plenty of followers of these religions that are tolerant people. They go about worshiping thier God without trying to impose their religious beliefs on others. And as long as that is the case then I don't see a problem. It's when they go around diddlying with other peoples lives that a problem occures. "
Quoting myself from the Farrakhan thread.
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So you are equally bigoted towards all religions?
:)
j/k I understand what you are saying.
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Thrawn,
The incident(s) I'm refering to apparently happened in the 1960's and 1970's where YOUR government forceably took Indian (feathers..not Dots) babys from thier mothers where they where to be "re-educated" and "civilized." Thousands where taken and many..many of them where abused while in the care of YOUR government. We're not talking about 1860's here...we're talking 1960's and 1970's!!!!! Apparently your government has officialy recoginzed it and are in discussions for reperations for the survivors. I heard this on NPR in the US...no link but I'll look for one...DON'T THROW STONES FROM A GLASS HOUSE BRO......
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Originally posted by 28sweep
no link but I'll look for one...DON'T THROW STONES FROM A GLASS HOUSE BRO......
No need, I aware of the incident you speak of. I thought you might be referring to something more recent. Yes my government has done some horrific things. No, there is no excuse or justification for these things.
I don't see what this has to do with the issue at hand though.
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The point is...is that many of you Canuks are snooty left wingers that often look down at my American bros. You think that we are all simple right wingers or something. Dude, I'm anything but simple. I've lived in Saudi Aribia, Iran, Egypt and many other Islamic country's. So when I say Islam is Evil and Should be Stamped Out-please don't dismiss me as a dumb American. You dumb Canuks often say on these boards that Canada is the least hated country on earth...hell your country is maybe the most divided on earth. Just ask your French Speaking "brothers" or your Indian friends that hate your guts. Didn't you guys a have a small war with some Indians in th 1970's. Stop exploiting Indian Babys and Free Quebec...........
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Thrawn, a picture is worth a thousand words...
(http://bimmer.roadfly.org/libs/stfupromo2.jpg)
:D
BAN HIM!
28, I wasn't arguing with people in this thread because they're were Yanks. Hell there are conservative Canadians I disagree with no this BSS and liberal Americans I agree with. For that matter, I've agreed with conservatives of both countries and disagred with liberals from both countries.
It was because I thought thier statements were unsupportable that I argued with them. I also thought their statements were very dangerous. I don't think that conservatives a innately stuipid, or even stupid as a group of people. To do so would be to guitly of the same poor thinking and hypocracy which is the subject of my posts.
PS: Just so I'm not to much of a hypocrit, I would like poing out that I have been and can be a hypocrit.
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of course if this happened in 1983 you'd all be singing the praises of the brave rebels fighting the mean old ussr....:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by mrfish
of course if this happened in 1983 you'd all be singing the praises of the brave rebels fighting the mean old ussr....:rolleyes:
maybe, but its not 1983
if it were 1944, we'd be bombing Berlin too...
mrfish - good to see you on the board again - hope all its well
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lol yeah eagler and if it were 1802 or whatever pocohontas could give me a back rub
you too btw :)
i guess my thing is this - i absolutely hate the chechans because they have been protrayed to me as evil awful moslem bad guys but i really don't know dick about their situation.
were they a part of russia that wanted to break off all of a sudden or were they some little country that was swallowed up by the soviet juggernaut in it's imperialist days that wants to get back to being it's own country? which is it really - i can't say i know for sure.
if it were 1983 i know i'd be routing for the brave chechan "freedom fighters" like grandpa reagan would surely tell me to, but now i am cheering their death-
so, there's only one truth for this situation so what is it? i admit i don't know and i wish the government would spend a little time educating me on the background and letting me come to my own conclusion rather than supplying me with some belief.
ps- i don't think the berlin thing works because their situation was different then - in this case i believe the chechans had a similar situation in '83 as they do now - if not how is it different?
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Apparently Russia and Chechnya have been fighting this civil war on and off for centuries.
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Grab your body Armor, your blessings from the Pope,call the Spaniards ,and let's part-y like it's 1199!!! To the holy city!!!
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Glasses I'll play the Pope, you can be the Spaniards, Mietla has a suit of armor, Let's Roll!
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Curval, I was being ironic - i.e. by lumping together all Muslims into one pigeon-hole, and declaring them enemies of all that is good and true, we risk becoming a westernized mirror image of the extremist Islamic fringe. That's why I used a term commonly coined by the Islamic fundamentalists, 'Infidel'.
Understand? :D
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Originally posted by funkedup
Glasses I'll play the Pope, you can be the Spaniards, Mietla has a suit of armor, Let's Roll!
Woohoo!!! :D
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The Russian-Chechen conflicts (http://conflict.gq.nu/premodern.htm)
There's two pages, Premodern and Modern. It's oversimplified, of course, but note the "oil connection". :)
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As an undergrad I did a paper comparing the 1996 war in Chechnya with the Dargo expidition of 1845. I used to have the paper posted on my webpage, but I haven't moved everything over to my new ISP, so I don't have it up. It's a bit stilted in the HTML format, but it makes reading the end notes a lot easier lol. Anyhow, I' zipped a copy and posted here if anyone is interested.
-Sik
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Originally posted by Sikboy
As an undergrad I did a paper comparing the 1996 war in Chechnya with the Dargo expidition of 1845. I used to have the paper posted on my webpage, but I haven't moved everything over to my new ISP, so I don't have it up. It's a bit stilted in the HTML format, but it makes reading the end notes a lot easier lol. Anyhow, I' zipped a copy and posted here if anyone is interested.
-Sik
Interesting piece. I saw a lot of similarities with the operations in Afghanistan against the mujahadeen. Seems its a pretty regular thing for the Russian military to get its butt kicked in guerilla wars.
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Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
Curval, I was being ironic - i.e. by lumping together all Muslims into one pigeon-hole, and declaring them enemies of all that is good and true, we risk becoming a westernized mirror image of the extremist Islamic fringe. That's why I used a term commonly coined by the Islamic fundamentalists, 'Infidel'.
Understand? :D
Understood...and point taken. You still should have used "heathen" though, to achieve the "proper" effect.;)
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Why does it always seem to be some "other" kind of muslim that is the perpetrator in these things...
Only an American could think that Thrawn speaks for all Canadians.
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I don't see Western Muslims condeming radical Islamics. Screw it, kill all the heathens and let God sort them out.
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Originally posted by Toad
The Russian-Chechen conflicts (http://conflict.gq.nu/premodern.htm)
There's two pages, Premodern and Modern. It's oversimplified, of course, but note the "oil connection". :)
Toad, you are a champion in finding different so-called "sources" on the internet.
This one is not "oversimplified", I can't even call it "propaganda" of some sort. It's just stupid roadkill. The one who wrote it probably saw 2-3 TV shows and never even read anything on the problem.
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Originally posted by ra
Boroda,
If they are Wahabi then they are Muslim. It is wishful thinking to say that 'real' Muslims hate Wahabis. I'd like to see any Muslim source that denounces Wahabism.
ra
Probable misunderstanding. They started to practice Wahabism because it meant huge financial and political support from Saudi Arabia.
I bet 99% of them can't read Koran, and more then 50% never saw even a translation.
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thanks toad - that piece clarifies things a bit -
i can't help thinking of the book 1984 where they were broadcasting a message to the people: "we are at war with Eurasia they are our bitter enemy, we hate them" then later "Eurasia is the best friend we have, they are our dearest ally- remeber?" and the crowd is like"oh yeah, they are our pal....i remember now i guess.."
in 1979 the song was "look what that brutal regime iran is doing to their neighbor, peace-loving iraq" now we recall the evil dictator sadam who was a threat to poor iran
and who could forget james bond hanging with those brave moslem freedom fighters in afganistan - ooops better remember that quietly or i'll be dragged off as a 'person of interest'
this whole shuffle is making me dizzy. i'm just having trouble losing my cold war mentality i guess - gotta get used to the new reality.
can you imagine the rhetoric though if russia had gassed people trying to get independence back in the cold war days??? - man we'd have had a field day with it...we'd have painted them with fangs now we're making excuses for them.
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Lets not forget Rambo the super patriot fighting among the honorable afghan rebels to liberate Afghanistan from the evil Russians...
wait. Russians are our pals now and we must destroy scummy afghans. gotta keep with the squedule! enemies change so quickly, this world is full of traitors!
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Originally posted by mrfish
and who could forget james bond hanging with those brave moslem freedom fighters in afganistan - ooops better remember that quietly or i'll be dragged off as a 'person of interest'
Are you being sarcastic or just delusional? Maybe you don't have freedom of speech in California like we do in Texas?
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oh we've got freedom of speech here too....i'm just not dumb enough to actually try it.
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OMG like Germany was like our enemy in WW2 and then BLAMMO they were our friend against the communists and like now they don't like us! I'm so confused. We must be living in one of those utopian sci-fi novels.
:rolleyes:
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which germany?
the one occupied by the ussr that was against us or the one occupied by us that was against the ussr?
make a relevant analogy and i'll consider your criticism.
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THERES 2 GERMANIES??????????? OMG *SLAPS FOREHEAD*
*EATS FRISBEE SEPPUKU STYLE*
*DIES*
(http://www.msu.edu/%7Ecouilla3/ninja/frisbee2.JPG)
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we were allied with russia in wwii because of a mutual enemy. the germans on each side after the war were occupied and only did what the man with the gun in his hand that defeated them in battle told them to do.
the chechan's case in 1983 was the same as it is today, yet we have taken two moral positions on them without them doing anything to us. either we were wrong about them then and they are bad people or we are wrong about them now. saying we judged their cause for political convenience isn't a satisfactory answer for me.
doesn't that even cause a tingle of curiosity? or are you happy with it solely because they are moslem and it's all the rage to put anti-moslem slogans just below the 'no-fear' sticker on your ford-tough truck? put down your pitch-fork and torch for a second and think about it.
ps - it's interesting that you find 1984 'utopian', not sure i've heard it called that before.
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Maybe dystopian is a better term. Whatever.
I don't have a truck, and have never seen an anti-muslim sticker on a truck or any other vehicle.
"we were allied with russia in wwii because of a mutual enemy."
Just like we and the Chechens had a mutual enemy c. 1983.
"saying we judged their cause for political convenience isn't a satisfactory answer for me. "
Happy hunting.
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In the history of most of these conflicts, Ireland, Palestine, Chechnya, Kashmir just to mention a very few, there is a common starting point.
Back at the beginning, somebody forcibly "took" some other bodies' land and/or sovereignity.
That's usually when the fight starts to "get it back".
When does the fight to "get it back" stop?
Boroda, please explain for me Russia's right to rule Chechnya. Keep it simple, I'm just a stupid Yank.
I have a feeling that the argument is merely "force of arms" and the "time of conquest" is roughly 1791, when Sheikh Mansur was captured.
The Chechens never really accepted their "defeat" nor their "conquest" did they?
Russia and the Chechens had at it again in the 1830's when Russia wanted to solidify their Turkish border. Took about 20 years for that one to play out about 1859?
Then the War with the Ottoman Empire in the 1870s provided the Chechens with a taste of freedom; they were briefly out from under Russian domination.
During the Revolution, the Chechens sided with the Whites and the Red Army reconquered them in the 1920's.
During late WW2, Stalin deported 200,000+ Chechens from their homeland into Central Asia because he feared they would support the Germans. There's evidence that a very large number of Chechens perished in this relocation which I'm sure you'll deny.
Kruschev allowed the Chechens to return to their homeland in '56, but they've never really been satisfied with Russian domination have they? The '90's showed that for certain.
So, explain again Russia's right to rule them.
Simply force of arms, correct? And when should the vanquished officially be required to give up the struggle?
Because if you know how to implement that, we'll make you the world's ambassador to Palestine.
*******
None of the above should be construed as any type of support for the Chechens. The Moscow situation was terrorism at it's worst.
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Originally posted by Curval
We Christians USED to refer to Musilms as HEATHENS back in the middle ages...INFIDELS is what they call us TODAY. So...change your post to Kill the HEATHEN Musilms and you might spark a better reaction....infidels is their phrasiology.
From Chambers English Dictionary -
infidel adj. unbelieving: sceptical: disbelieving Christianity or whatever be the religion of the user of the word. n. one who rejects Christianity, etc.: (loosely) one who disbelieves in any theory, etc. [O. Fr. infidele - L. infidelis - in-, not, fidelis faithful - fides, faith.]
Infidel is from the Latin (the language the church used for all official stuff - masses, bibles, papal bulls) - like semper fidelis for example.
Heathen on the other hand is from Old English haethen or the Dutch heiden . At the time, Latin and French were the lingua franca, not English or Dutch.
Here's a small bit on the pope's call for the First crusade:
"Pope Urban II was a powerful speaker; all our sources indicate that the speech he delivered that day was moving and memorable. We have several accounts that differ in detail, but the following delivers the general sense of his message that day.
The noble race of Franks must come to the aid their fellow Christians in the East. The infidel Turks are advancing into the heart of Eastern Christendom; Christians are being oppressed and attacked; churches and holy places are being defiled. Jerusalem is groaning under the Saracen yoke. The Holy Sepulchre is in Moslem hands and has been turned into a mosque. Pilgrims are harassed and even prevented from access to the Holy Land.
The West must march to the defense of the East. All should go, rich and poor alike. The Franks must stop their internal wars and squabbles. Let them go instead against the infidel and fight a righteous war.
God himself would lead them, for they would be doing His work. There will be absolution and remission of sins for all who die in the service of Christ. Here they are poor and miserable sinners; there they will be rich and happy. Let none hesitate; they must march next summer. God wills it!
Deus lo volt! (God wills it) became the battle cry of the Crusaders."
http://crusades.boisestate.edu/1st/02.htm (http://crusades.boisestate.edu/1st/02.htm)
See how often the word heathen (after the background bit) turns up in this translation of the Romanus Pontifex Papal Bull
http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/indig-romanus-pontifex.html (http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/indig-romanus-pontifex.html)
Infidel is the Christian nomenclature - hardly surprising given that the word is from the Latin.
Apparently, the arabic for infidel is Kafir - this means also [somewhat ironically] a native of Kafiristan (Literally "land of the infidels") - which is the old name of nuristan - a region of Afghanistan.
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Originally posted by Animal
Lets not forget Rambo the super patriot fighting among the honorable afghan rebels to liberate Afghanistan from the evil Russians...
wait. Russians are our pals now and we must destroy scummy afghans. gotta keep with the squedule! enemies change so quickly, this world is full of traitors!
I don't watch anything with that draft dodger in it. I know he makes good flicks, I just refuse to support his cowardice.
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PS Fish:
You seem to be confusing Afghanistan and Chechenya.
Afghanistan was a sovereign nation invaded by the Evil Empire. To have done nothing in the face of Soviet agression like this would have been wrong. And you'd have to be a complete idiot (or communist stooge) to take the USSR's side of the argument in that one. Certainly what the US did was nothing in comparison to Soviet and Red Chinese aid given to North Vietnam in their war of agression against South Vietnam.
I have no idea what the US did in Chechenya during the 1980's. Considering that it was an ASSR, I'd wager that the US had very little success in doing anything over there. However if they had risen up against their Russian masters, I'm sure the USA would have supported their movement, although only in ways that would be hard to trace and unlikely to be taken by the USSR as acts of war.
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Toad, this question is 100% out of discussion. We are not going to let anyone discuss the borders of USSR and Russia stated in Helsinki in 1975, and we are strong enough to stop any attempt to revise them, like you did to Yugoslavia in 1999.
Toad, can you explain for me the US right to rule Texas or California?
It is OUR land. Most of the land that is called "Chechnya" now is the land of the Terek Warriorship. It was given to Chechens by Nikita with the amnesty for nazi-supporters.
We are trying to restore law and order in Chechnya and secure nearby Orthodox and Moslim population from the medieval gangster regime that was built in Chechnya since 1991. They had their independance in 1996-99, and what we got was the invasion to Dagestan, not speaking of slavery and kidnapping (including Western citizens), robbery and armed attacks on nearby settlements.
Call me whatever you want, but I vote for Stalin's solution: deportation in one night, but this time Novaya Zemlya instead of Kazakhstan. One terrorist found in a village - the whole village goes to sunny beaches of Arctic Ocean. One rifle found in a village - the same thing.
Or we can give them independance officially and declare war on them 2 hours later, and not bother about "human rights" that our European "friends" talk so much.
Or maybe we should send all the Chechens to Denmark, that showed great respect to terrorists and hosted "international Chechen congress"? The bloody beasts will be happy to live in Denmark. BTW, what's with the "political shelter" status for Akhmed Zakayev in the US? What's with http://www.kavkaz.org registered in Florida? Isn't it time for your government to stop speaking and start to act?
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Doing anything in Chechnya in 1980s? Well your propaganda office was busy enough with Baltic republics that time :mad:
What is that Western propaganda radio that started broadcasting in Chechen language this summer? Was it "Liberty" or "Voice of America"?
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i see your point funked but shouldn't we have seen how evil they were (ie did we ask them what type of government they would establish if thy could?) and said no way, let them fall - hell we'd have backed satan himself if he were anti-commie.
my point is that you are making light and being really flippant "look how peaceful..." about the death of a lot of people whose main demand was "stop the war on chechnya".
the ussr rolled into a lot of countries during their expansionist period and i have to say it doesn't seem that unreasonable for them to fight back - i sure won't support them funked, but i'm not going to jump on the band-wagon and bemuse their death until i do know more about the truth of the matter-
in the cold war we jumped into bed with anyone who was against russia - what are we gonna do now, turn away from all of russia's enemies solely because we want their UN support? i like a US that takes the right stand regardless - i'm just going for that
cheers dude-
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Originally posted by mrfish
the ussr rolled into a lot of countries during their expansionist period and i have to say it doesn't seem that unreasonable for them to fight back - i sure won't support them funked, but i'm not going to jump on the band-wagon and bemuse their death until i do know more about the truth of the matter-
I don't care how good their cause is. Taking civilians hostage and murdering them is not acceptable.
I don't really have a problem with Islamic people in general. I have worked with quite a few Muslims and never had any issues with them. One was my supervisor and two others were my "right hand man" at various times. The ones I have known were hard working and respectful, and had a good sense of humor.
I just think the President's quote (the thread title) is more and more ironic as more and more blood is spilled by losers who claim they are working for Allah.
And I will continue to happily wish painful death and destruction upon people like those in the picture I posted.
Enjoy :)
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Originally posted by Boroda
Toad, this question is 100% out of discussion.
No, it bears directly on the discussion. The Chechens have never accepted Russian domination. As a result there have been continual periods of open conflict since the 1790's.
From their point of view, I'm sure they see it as a continual struggle against oppression to regain their independence. (Although, as I said, they were simply terrorists in Moscow. Resorting to these tactics dooms them to failure, as it should.)
From the Russian point of view, I'm sure it's merely a rebellion against the "true" lawful government, right?
The heart of it is, however, that like Palestine, this is likely to never have an ending.
Yet here you are proposing solutions that would make even the Israelis blush and be ashamed to mention, I think.
I find it ironic, Boroda, that you seem to have become what you so often decry on these boards.
Boroda: Toad, can you explain for me the US right to rule Texas or California?[/b]
Sure, the populations of both California and Texas voted to accept admission to the United States and were accepted.
If you are referring to our taking that land from the "original" inhabitants, it's basically force of arms. Although in the case of both Texas and California it was primarily the Spaniards that did the early subjugation of the native populations. :)
Another difference is that California and Texas are not in open rebellion against the government. THEIR populations WANT to be in the United States. Pretty big difference, eh?
It is OUR land.
[/b]
Really? Like Northern Ireland really belongs to Great Britain? Or the Sinai or the Golan Heights really belongs to Israel? Or like Kuwait should have belonged to Iraq?
When does it end, Boroda? That's the question.
Call me whatever you want,
[/b]
Don't need to call you anything. You're doing a fine job of defining yourself without my help. :) As I said, it's particularly amusing given your history here on this BBS. You have become what you used to decry.
Hey, what about the OIL! What do you think about the OIL aspect? Is Russia interested in the OIL at all, do you think?
You have to admit, it's just tooooooooo funny.
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so if it were 1983 and we were at 'war' with the evil empire you'd still say good riddance to the rebels - i mean they still would have been hostage takers so your same moral position should apply right? you'd have jumped up and praised russi for executing them on the spot while they slept?
even though the evening news would have been singing their praises you'd have stood alone in dissention. yeah right.
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Another difference is that California and Texas are not in open rebellion against the government. THEIR populations WANT to be in the United States. Pretty big difference, eh?
So far... just don't push it. :)
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Originally posted by mrfish
i like a US that takes the right stand regardless - i'm just going for that
cheers dude-
Just a side note here....
That's the US I would like as well.
Now, can you tell me how to get the US to make the "right" decision everytime without error?
How do you get world events to stay static long enough to decide?
How do you get a decision that everyone agrees upon as "right"?
In short, how do we achieve such perfection?
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In 1983, we wouldn't have seen it so clearly if they were taking hostages at a theatre in Moscow. It wouldn't have leaked out of the USSR, not in detail. Maybe US intelligence would have picked it up, but they would have spun it as freedom fighters or rebels without revealing the sleazy tactics. I think I would have supported the notion of an SSR fighting for independence, but I don't think anybody could support them if they knew the details of tactics like the theater hostage-taking. If the hypothetical 1983 Chechens had limited their actions to military targets I wouldn't have a problem with it. But hell they can't even do that right. Their atrocities against Russian troops are well-documented. I had the misfortune of seeing some of them on video. :(
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Originally posted by Toad
Just a side note here....
That's the US I would like as well.
Now, can you tell me how to get the US to make the "right" decision everytime without error?
How do you get world events to stay static long enough to decide?
How do you get a decision that everyone agrees upon as "right"?
In short, how do we achieve such perfection?
Yep that's the major problem. If you make decisions with imperfect information, you are bound to make some bad ones. Which is why I think we should stop the global meddling. If somebody attacks us or our allies, send troops. Otherwise, bring them all home. I'm tired of paying for it. We have enough toejam to pay for already.
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i've seen those tapes too - particularly a guy getting his throat slashed and another getting his head lopped off with a hatchet - the ones i saw were sometimes attributed to the russians and other times attributed to the chechans - i have also seen a tape labeled "weatherman commits suicide on tape" that was really describing the bud dwyer suicide so i don't pay much credence to those things.
at any rate it takes a lot more than some realistic war scenes as opposed to that hollywood hero slop to sway my opinion - the other side is free of analogous actions i take it? yeah right... if we had tapes of them would that change your opinion? it's bad to let images and rhetoric to make up your mind for you. it's no substitute for fact.
toad- no idea. i think we have to back a 'dog' sometimes because the alternative is a communist puppet state, but maybe when the threat is gone we should be more conscientious about what becomes of their country. it's the burden of the winner i say.
i don't like this whole thing where russia and the US are like two old guys sitting around "say bob you got terrorist probs too eh", " yeah bill it sucks... do you know a good spray for that?"
we have this tendancy to minimize other countries until we need them for something. i don't like that.
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Originally posted by mrfish
we have this tendancy to minimize other countries until we need them for something. i don't like that.
That's not a "we" thing.. that's an "everyone" thing.
I could probably find an example of folks that ignore the US until they need us for something.
It's life, Mr. Fish. Or perhaps Maslow's Hierarchy would be more apt.
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Originally posted by Fishu
100%?
Something like 700 lived, with many in hospital..
isn't that more like 15-17% casualty rate?
Casualty does not mean dead . Of 800ish hostages there are 115 dead, and over 600 in the hospital . That means about 100% casualties. Thats not a chemical incapacitant, that's a chemical weapon . An incapacitating agent would not have been as fast acting or as indetectable . They used a rapid onset nonpersistant agent .
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While I believe that the only good terrorist is a dead terrorist . I think Russia created their own Northern Ireland when they tried to annex their neighbor Chechnya ala USSR . Before the invasion in 94 the government of chechnya was much more stable, now that government has been completely destablized and un able to police it's self, as a result it has become a haven for radical muslim cockroaches . Now a situation much like Isreal or Northern Ireland has been let out of the bag and will never go away, at least not in our lifetimes .
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Germany doctors stated that they identified the gas and its Fentanyl. From what i understood this was taken from hospitalized German citizen hostage.
Fentanyl is opiate, so overdose can be an issue. Opiates have common effect which is almost paralysis like drowsiness and feeling of complete well-being. Even than your local DEA agent may tell otherwise, opiate overdose is actually hard to achieve since it requires multiplied dosages. It may actually be very good on this kind of operations. Opiates are tolerated well so it has also low allergic reaction possibility.
Inhaled stuff gets in the blood circulation immidiately, so the effect is just like somebody wouldve shot a cyringe of heroin to these terrorists.
Opiates and long hospital aftercare makes sense to me. We can now stop the funny speculations of diluted mustard gas will you..:rolleyes:
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Fentanyl is poison, it is an anesthetic and a sedative, causes vomiting and inhalation of said vomit. OD if it is not too bad can be reversed with the antagonist narcan . Maybe GB would've been safer . There is a reason why anestesiologist call themselves poison controll .
Both the serbs and the soviets have used chemical weapons in the near past, so I don't believe it's that funny of speculation .
Oh I almost forgot :rolleyes:
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yo thrawn...you quote that our viloence has risen..and make a smart bellybutton remark that we blame Clinton..WELL YOU NONE KNOWING MOTHER FUKER.... We can blame Him and thre Democrats for this roadkill
We have gotten more and more restrictive gun control laws....THIS ONLY HELPS CRIMINALS...Because a law abiding citezenis following law..CRIMINALS DONT
....some of you people miss common sense way too much....
example..The dfemocratic party uses SCARE tactics very often..:BAN ASSUALT WEPAONS..BAN SATURDAY NIGHT SPECIALS"
Well u diddlying morons..."assault Weapons" FULL AUTOMATIC MACHINE guns....those have been outlawed since the 1930's....
They are now showing guns that "look" scary...
SATURday Night Special"...no such diddlying thing.....Oh you mean ban pistols that are "cheap!!?? Oh ok..so idf you dont make enuuf to spend $300-1000. on a pistol u cant protect ur family and property....ya....diddly Canada....Burn in Hell
Love BiGB
xoxoxo
And PS...thx for your open borders up there..u diddlying degenerates
and as far as Islam and peace....Fuk that too..THEY have called up a holy war....well we got one for them...they gonna be all buried in a deep hole...
Yes hundreds of thousands of "western Bodies---with Millions of Islamic radiclas rigth next to them"....God Bless America and our Allies...Canada..u are close to being put with France...
And I know...You cant carpet bomb everyone together..trust me ..I would kik some of these "americans" out too...
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Ya opiate derived..great the dum bellybutton terrosits or what ever they were got to feel good all the way to death....
Best thing they could of done tho..cant beleive they didnt have enuff time to blow the place up..Dam that gas worked dam fast
Love BiGB
xoxo
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BGB, was going to post a large rebuttal, then I realised that you would be to stupid to understand it. Suffice it to say, that the most glaring example that all might not be well in the US, is the fact that your government, lets a clinically moronic diddlywad like you fly a plane commercially...or at all for that matter.
In closing, blow me, dipshit.
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BGMAW tell us how you really feel man? :rolleyes:
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Samm, its poison just like tear gas is. Nothing illegal there.
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Tear gas isn't poison, if you're talking about CS gas it has a mortality rate of 0%, and CN gas is even less persistant and weaker . And why did you bring up legality ?
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Sure, the populations of both California and Texas voted to accept admission to the United States and were accepted.
Another difference is that California and Texas are not in open rebellion against the government. THEIR populations WANT to be in the United States. Pretty big difference, eh?
Really? Like Northern Ireland really belongs to Great Britain? Or the Sinai or the Golan Heights really belongs to Israel? Or like Kuwait should have belonged to Iraq?
The population of NI voted to become part of the UK, and gets a vote at least every 5 years. Every time they have voted to remain part of the UK.
Northern Ireland is not in open rebellion against the government. Around 10% of the population supported Sinn Fein/IRA, the other 90% were opposed to terrorism. A majority of the population, way over 60%, want to remain part of the UK.
NI was settled by Scots and English hundreds of years ago, long before Texas and California were settled by Europeans. The Sinai was conquered by Israel 50 years ago, the Golan just over 30 years, Kuwait ten years.
None of these are comparable to NI.
Ireland shouldn't have been invaded 800 years ago. However, what happened 800 years ago was the norm for Europe at the time. Now, NI is a part of the UK, with full democracy, inhabited by people, most of whom want to remain part of the UK. There is a small terrorist problem, perpetrated by groups who are opposed to the democratic process, and want to impose their will on the majority.
NI has more right to be part of the UK than Texas and California do to be part of the US.
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Im absolutely sure that tear gas will kill a man if conditions are right. High concentration and weakened body will be very risky. It generates lots of all kinds of nasty side-effects (to all organs it touches) and i dont have any doubt that it can be lethal.
Its all in the concentrations. Try to spray some tear gas they use in battlefield to your opponent and i wouldnt be suprised if he'd suffocate. Same goes to Fentanyl, it can be lethal or it can be diluted for lesser side effects. Lesser side-effects of course lessen the WANTED side effects, like paralysis. We wouldnt want that to happen wouldnt we?
I bet they wanted to use stronger mix than would be minimum, just to make sure no wires are connected. DIdnt they mention they estimated a 150 casualties? Why wouldnt this estimate be in direct connection with the gas?
And dont tell me that those 600 alive patients count as casualty, no way. If they wouldve received tear gas, all would be sent in the hospital just in case. Theyre just waiting for the opium high to vanish and prolly they give "soft landing" with some opium derivate, like ketamine. All that time they will be lying in hospital bed.
Last time i checked there were 48 critical patients, which could be dying, but the rest will not.
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Originally posted by -dead-
From Chambers English Dictionary -
Infidel is the Christian nomenclature - hardly surprising given that the word is from the Latin.
Personally I use the Oxford Dictionary...but I don't doubt that it says the same thing.
-dead-, you appear to be attempting to give me an intellectual spanking, which I somewhat deserve for not investigating the origin of the word "infidel", but my point still remains relevant.
Do we, as Christians still refer to non-Christians as infidels or even heathens? No! These terms are the language of intolerance and were only used in ordinary conversation back in the medieval period.
Do the Musilm fundementalists refer to us as infidels? Yes...in fact it rolls offs the tongues of these people as easily as any other term.
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Curval - compare like for like. You compared your ordinary Christians to Islamic Fundamentalists. A better comparison would be Christian Fundamentalists and Islamic Fundamentalists.
I think you'll find that Christian fundamentalists are very fond of the language of intolerance - including 'heathen' and 'abomination'.
They maybe of a different religion, but their goals, language and approach to those not agreeing with their moral viewpoint are very similar.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Ireland shouldn't have been invaded 800 years ago. However, what happened 800 years ago was the norm for Europe at the time. Now, NI is a part of the UK, with full democracy, inhabited by people, most of whom want to remain part of the UK. There is a small terrorist problem, perpetrated by groups who are opposed to the democratic process, and want to impose their will on the majority.
Yeah, maybe in 800 years or so Palestine will calm down to the same point. And maybe even Chechnya as well.
Didn't take California and Texas anywhere near that long, did it? :)
Time heals all wounds, I guess. Seems like nothing else does the trick.
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Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
I think you'll find that Christian fundamentalists are very fond of the language of intolerance - including 'heathen' and 'abomination'.
They maybe of a different religion, but their goals, language and approach to those not agreeing with their moral viewpoint are very similar.
Ummmm...when is the last time you saw a Christian fundementalist blow him/herself up, along with a busload of innocents...or take over a theatre with 700 people inside and threaten to kill them all?
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Originally posted by Curval
Ummmm...when is the last time you saw a Christian fundementalist blow him/herself up, along with a busload of innocents...or take over a theatre with 700 people inside and threaten to kill them all?
Ok, so I'm bleeding over from another post about Islam but I have to add and ask. Can you name a country that is predominantly Christian and officially executes those that convert to some other religion? I can name four Islamic countries that do and several others where it's not offical policy but happens nonetheless.
Does asking this question make me a bigot?
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Originally posted by Curval
Ummmm...when is the last time you saw a Christian fundementalist blow him/herself up, along with a busload of innocents...or take over a theatre with 700 people inside and threaten to kill them all?
Abortion clinic bombings, I'm sure you can find many other instances of Christian/Catholic nutjobs blowing things up, or something just as bad, if you really wanted to find it.
Of course, I can do this for just about any religion.. Buddhism is probably the only one that doesn't have nutjobs that take things to the extreme...
-SW
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Abortion clinic bombings, I'm sure you can find many other instances of Christian/Catholic nutjobs blowing things up, or something just as bad, if you really wanted to find it.
Of course, I can do this for just about any religion.. Buddhism is probably the only one that doesn't have nutjobs that take things to the extreme...
-SW
Abortion clinic bombings? Yes, in the last 10 or 15 years I have heard of one or two such events. I open the paper EVERY DAY and see incidents of wacko Musilms killing people in the name of Allah.
A better example MIGHT have been IRA bombings. But at least the Irish seem to be getting over their troubles...although it has taken about 700 years.
I agree with you regarding Buddism. It really is the only faith that has virtually no blood on its hands.
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Originally posted by Curval
Abortion clinic bombings? Yes, in the last 10 or 15 years I have heard of one or two such events. I open the paper EVERY DAY and see incidents of wacko Musilms killing people in the name of Allah.
Yeah, but what you read in the paper boils down to the Hot Topic of the Day.. There was also one guy a year ago who went into an abortion clinic and gunned people down... a couple instances of that in the DC metro area just last year...
I'm not saying any religion is to blame for killings... it's the nutjobs who take it to the next level, I myself have nothing wrong with the faith.. but each religion will have it's extremists who, while not representative of the religion, will commit acts of mass killings and will thereby be labelled as the representatives of that religion.
You always hear about the evils of a religious people, while you'll rarely hear about the good.
All I'm saying is that there will always be extremists, don't be so gullible as to allow popular opinion to convince you that the extremists are the representatives of that religion or people.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Abortion clinic bombings, I'm sure you can find many other instances of Christian/Catholic nutjobs blowing things up, or something just as bad, if you really wanted to find it.-SW
day and night
both commited by nutbag followers - yes - but:
an abortion bomber is blowing up an EMPTY building to save innocent lives of those who can't save themselves
while ...
a Pal bus bomber is destroying a PACKED bus to take lives of innocent ppl
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Originally posted by Eagler
an abortion bomber is blowing up an EMPTY building to save innocent lives of those who can't save themselves
Nice justification... except there were people in there, and they died...
-SW
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Nice justification... except there were people in there, and they died...
-SW
ok
historically ...
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Originally posted by Curval
Do we, as Christians still refer to non-Christians as infidels or even heathens?
We?!? Count me out of the Xian camp there. ;)
No! These terms are the language of intolerance and were only used in ordinary conversation back in the medieval period.
That Romanus Pontifex Papal Bull I gave you a link to apparently still hasn't been repealed yet, so technically the intolerance is still in force, even if the language isn't. The Big G himself is depicted as a very intolerant deity in the Bible - and more than slightly partial to a bit of the old mass murder and genocide, mostly of people who don't worship him. As far as I can see, Monotheistic religions are pretty much intolerant by definition - they are basically like the movie Highlander* - "there can can only be one" true religion.
*Except the plot is less believable and the music is even worse. :D
Do the Musilm fundementalists refer to us as infidels? Yes...in fact it rolls offs the tongues of these people as easily as any other term.
Good point - Now, do you extend this outraged righteous idignation to include those radicals who call everyone not in their religious sect "gentiles" or "goyim"? To paraphrase your original post: is that something that truely[sic] pisses you off about the Jews and offers some insight into their faith as well?
But the thing I don't understand is: what's your problem in being called an infidel by a muslim? It means you're a non-believer - or a non-muslim - and you don't believe in Islam, do you? In your post, you claim to be Xian - so why not just forgive them when they call you a kafir or a zimmi? :D
As to the your use of the Oxford dictionary - if only you would! Hehe Sorry. A cheap shot, I know, but I couldn't resist it. :D
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Historically what?
I'm not trying to turn any religion into the root of all evil... I'm just trying to explain that they all have their good and their bad... you can't say that any one religion is worse than the other... it's how some people interpret it that can make it bad..
-SW
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Originally posted by Toad
No, it bears directly on the discussion. The Chechens have never accepted Russian domination. As a result there have been continual periods of open conflict since the 1790's.
[/B]
Really? Interesting point of view. Ever heard about Imam Shamil? The one who lived in Kaluga and made a haj on Russian money?
Originally posted by Toad
Yet here you are proposing solutions that would make even the Israelis blush and be ashamed to mention, I think.
[/B]
I don't diddlying care. I just want that beasts to be isolated. And I am sick of all that "human rights" crap.
Stalin was a wise man. He found the most suitable solution.
Russians were not so "practical" as the US government in XIX century to simply kill every highlander in Caucasus and occupy their land. We always have to pay for being too sentimental.
Originally posted by Toad
Don't need to call you anything. You're doing a fine job of defining yourself without my help. :) As I said, it's particularly amusing given your history here on this BBS. You have become what you used to decry.
Hey, what about the OIL! What do you think about the OIL aspect? Is Russia interested in the OIL at all, do you think?
You have to admit, it's just tooooooooo funny. [/B]
Oil?! What oil? You mean Chechen oil fields? They were exausted about 30 years ago. Now your beloved "freedom fighters" make a good business puncturing the pipeline that goes through Chechnya and stealing petrol. We have a precedent with Chineese-Eastern railway, when Russian supply line was going through hostile territory, but I think the solution isn't suitable for current situation in Chechnya.
Toad, you are a brilliant example of cold war brainwashing. Even disasters like 09-11 didn't teach you anything. You are speaking about Russian "occupation" of Chechnya, and become trigger-happy about poor Iraq, denying a right for self-defence for souverign nation. Maybe you still think that US pirate agression against Yugoslavia, an obvious help to international terrorism was OK, and happened only to protect "human rights"? I advise you to turn off your TV and radio for a month, you will see - it helps to vent your brain from the crap they feed us.
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Originally posted by -dead-
Good point - Now, do you extend this outraged righteous idignation to include those radicals who call everyone not in their religious sect "gentiles" or "goyim"? To paraphrase your original post: is that something that truely[sic] pisses you off about the Jews and offers some insight into their faith as well?
But the thing I don't understand is: what's your problem in being called an infidel by a muslim? It means you're a non-believer - or a non-muslim - and you don't believe in Islam, do you? In your post, you claim to be Xian - so why not just forgive them when they call you a kafir or a zimmi? :D
As to the your use of the Oxford dictionary - if only you would! Hehe Sorry. A cheap shot, I know, but I couldn't resist it. :D
Did I say "Please Sir, may I have another?" somewhere in my post;)
Point of fact...I have NEVER, EVER heard an Israeli (or any Jew)publically sprouting off about goyims...I have only ever heard that particular word used in a derogatory fashion...just as I have only heard the word infidel used in a derogatory fashion - normally on the evening news.
That is the problem I have with it.
Touche on the Oxford dictionary thing.
:)
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Originally posted by Boroda
Toad, you are a brilliant example of cold war brainwashing.
This is the best yet!
:D
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Originally posted by Boroda
Russians were not so "practical" as the US government in XIX century to simply kill every highlander in Caucasus and occupy their land. We always have to pay for being too sentimental.
But maybe I spoke too soon. This is awfully good.. probably the best in that last.
Russian Sentimentality.. brings to mind the Ukraine in 1932-33.
Or perhaps the '36-'38 Purge?
Is there a sentimental song about 0RDER N0. 001223, executed in Estonia in '41?
I suppose it was sentimentality at Katyn Forest as well.
Boroda: I don't diddlying care. I just want that beasts to be isolated. And I am sick of all that "human rights" crap.
[/b]
Ah. I see. "that human rights crap". :D
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Originally posted by Tuomio
Im absolutely sure that tear gas will kill a man if conditions are right.
So will H2o, but it only takes a tiny amount of fentanyl to cause respiratory arrest .
High concentration and weakened body will be very risky.
[/b] No it isn't .
It generates lots of all kinds of nasty side-effects (to all organs it touches) and i dont have any doubt that it can be lethal.
[/b] To all organ it touches ? are you sure ?
Its all in the concentrations. Try to spray some tear gas they use in battlefield to your opponent and i wouldnt be suprised if he'd suffocate.
[/b] I would be very surprised, having been exposed to burning CS in a small enclosed room just like a million or so americans are every year .
Same goes to Fentanyl, it can be lethal or it can be diluted for lesser side effects. Lesser side-effects of course lessen the WANTED side effects, like paralysis. We wouldnt want that to happen wouldnt we?
[/b] Paralysis isn't a side effect of a paralytic agonist .
DIdnt they mention they estimated a 150 casualties? Why wouldnt this estimate be in direct connection with the gas?
[/b] No they didn't .
And dont tell me that those 600 alive patients count as casualty, no way.
[/b] I'm curious to know what you think the word casualty means . If they wouldve received tear gas, all would be sent in the hospital just in case.
[/b] In all the history of riot gas deployment I know of no cases of that happening . Theyre just waiting for the opium high to vanish and prolly they give "soft landing" with some opium derivate, like ketamine.
[/b] This has been one long bellybutton "opium high", do you know how long the average recovery time is for general anasthesia ? Likely many of them are being treated with a regimen of broad spectrum IV antibiotics for aspiration pnuemonia. Using ketamin to aid in narcosis recovery ! Wow I learned something new today .
Move along folks, nothing to see here, just policing missinformation .
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Heh keep posting Boroda. I rather like seeing how 'the other side' sees things :D.
And that point another chap made about unbelieveable screenplay and bad music in the bible - a gem! :D
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Russian Sentimentality.. brings to mind the Ukraine in 1932-33.
Evil communsts "organized" that mass starvation? That's not even funny. The last big hunger happened in 1947. Before the revolution such things happened maybe once every five years. One of dr. Goebbels's inventions.
Or perhaps the '36-'38 Purge?
Dr. Goebbels's invention #2. We have more people in prison now in 2002 then in the worst year of "purges", 1940. Almost 2 times more, and it's only Russian Federation, not the whole USSR.
Is there a sentimental song about 0RDER N0. 001223, executed in Estonia in '41?
Please, educate me on this subject, but, i kindly ask you - provide facts, not your usual ministry of propaganda materials.
I suppose it was sentimentality at Katyn Forest as well.
I have told you many times that I don't have an opinion about that accident, but the last reliable document on it was the Burdenko's comission report, provided to the Nuremburg court, signed, among others, by US representatives. So, speaking to you, and going down to your level of argument - I'd call it dr. Goebbels's invention #3. Isn't it too much for one post? Or your purpose is popularisation of nazi propaganda?
Originally posted by Toad
Ah. I see. "that human rights crap". :D [/B]
"Human rights watch" aready demands "investigation" for "murder of helpless people" in Nord-Ost theatre, calling it an "execution without trial".
The commission should investigate the circumstances of all deaths in relation to this incident and determine whether any were extrajudicial executions. Media reports and television footage suggest that some of the estimated fifty hostage-takers who died in the operation were unconscious when special forces shot them.
http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/10/russia1030.htm
That bastards are my personal enemies and terrorist supporters. I hope their activities in Russia will be stopped immediately.
Toad, "human rights" subject was raised after Helsinki conference only to have another tool to press onto USSR, and US officials already admitted that they didn't give a flying f#$k about the "opressed Jews" and dissidents - they needed a political propaganda instrument.
Toad, now it's time to decide for yourself what side you are on. Time of double-standards is over.
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Boroda, I find your denials of history fascinating. Particularly when you tell me that I'm the one who is "a brilliant example of cold war brainwashing". :D
Here you go... of course, it won't agree with your "official" version. ;)
The Artificial Famine/Genocide in Ukraine 1932-33 (http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine/)
"In 1932, the Soviets increased the grain procurement quota for Ukraine by 44%. They were aware that this extraordinarly high quota would result in a grain shortage, therefore resulting in the inability of the Ukrainian peasant to feed themselves.
Soviet law was quite clear in that no grain could be given to feed the peasants until the quota was met. Communist party officials with the aid of military trrops and NKVD secret police units were used to move against peasants who may be hiding grain from the Soviet government. Even worse, an internal passport system was implemented to restrict movements of Ukrainian peasants so that they could not travel in search of food.
Ukrainian grain was collected and stored in grain elevators that were guarded by military units & NKVD secret police units while Ukrainians were starving in the immediate area. The actions of this Moscow instigated action was a deliberate act of genocide against the Ukrainian peasant."
********
Purges? May I suggest The Great Terror: A Reassessment by Robert Conquest?
Case Study: Stalin's Purges (http://www.gendercide.org/case_stalin.html)
By 1938, Conquest estimates that about 7 million Purge victims were in the labour/death camps, on top of the hundreds of thousands who had been slaughtered outright. In the worst camps, such as those of the Kolyma gold-mining region in the Arctic, the survival rate was just 2 or 3 percent (see the incarceration/death penalty case study). Alexander Solzhenitsyn calls the prison colonies in the Solovetsky Islands "the Arctic Auschwitz," and cites the edict of their commander, Naftaly Frenkel, which "became the supreme law of the Archipelago: 'We have to squeeze everything out of a prisoner in the first three months -- after that we don't need him anymore.'" (Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago, vol. 2, p. 49.)
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"Please, educate me on this subject, but, i kindly ask you - provide facts"
How about the actual order? It's on file in London.
ORDER No 001223 (http://www.latvians.com/Exile/TheseNamesAccuse/Appendix-1.htm)
I think you'll also find this entire history interesting, although it deals primarily with just Latvia; Estonia and Lithuania suffered the same fate. Pay particular attention to the actual documents provided in the appendix.
]These Names Accuse (http://www.latvians.com/Exile/TheseNamesAccuse/Historical-Introduction-pt1.htm)
The purpose of this publication is to provide historical and documentary evidence of the facts that the genocide carried out in Soviet Russia and in the countries annexed by her is an essential part of the administrative and economic system founded by the Bolshevik party. The fate of Latvia and the other Baltic States during World War II was not an accident in foreign policy, but a carefully prepared and planned action of the Kremlin towards world domination, towards a pax sovietica.
..and...
The registration of losses of human life was continued afterwards and by January 1, 1943, the total of Latvian victims, deported or murdered by the bolsheviks, exceeded 34,000.
********
Katyn Forest? The "last reliable document"?
The Katyn Massacre (http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/01/spotlight/)
It wasn't until 1990 that Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev admitted Soviet involvement in the Katyn forest massacre. Two years later, the Russian government handed over to Polish President Lech Walesa previously secret documents showing that Soviet leader Joseph Stalin had directly ordered the killing of the Polish army officers.
If you can't face the truth, that's YOUR problem. Who was "brainwashed" again?
I'm against what the Chechens did at the Moscow Theater. It was terrorism plain and simple. There's no excuse for that act.
As I said though, your proposed "solutions" for the Chechen problem would make the most hawkish Israeli blush with shame if they were proposed for the Palestinian problem.
Your concerns for civilian casualties in Iraq during the war are ludicrous in light of what Russia did in Grozny.
Your concerns for civilian casualties during the operation to remove the Taliban from Afghanistan are ludicrous in light of what you now propose for Chechnya after Russia suffered a terrorist attack far less damaging than what happened on 9/11.
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Toad, again you take typical Goebbels propaganda adopted by your brainwashing machine in late-40s.
7 millions in labour camps?! What did that guy smoke?
That "order" is probably a fake, as 99% of what your propaganda poured on Baltic republics (the brightest example is the "secret protocol" to 1939 Soviet-German treaty). Anyway, I see nothing surprising in that order. Any country does such things. Now tell me how many people were deported from Latvia in 1940, and compare it to the fact that in 1944, when Soviet Army came back there were only 18 (eighteen) Jews left in Latvia. Latvia was and is now a fascist country, and what happens there now is never shown in Western media.
Katyn - well, Gorbachev always had problems with common sence. That traitor isn't an authority for me. I say - I don't know what happened in Katyn, but there is enough evidence, confirmed by US and other foreign representatives that the execution were performed by nazis in 1941-42.
Stop putting your words into my mouth. I said I am afraid of heavy civilian casualities in Afghanistan on the first day of the attack, when the only thing we were told is that "Kabul is bombed". Knowing US military habbits in Korea, Vietnam, Lybia, Serbia etc. I thought you started your favourite "bomb them to stone age" game.
As for Iraq - you killed ~150000 civilians who were far enough from front line with only purpose: to terrorise the population. And I am damn sure you will do it again if your whitehouse looney will start a new war for "democracy" that noone needs.
Russia has enough power to make Chechnya a moon surface, but we still are too sentimental and send our boys to find obvious terrorists, and trying to save so-called "civilians". And it's not your f#$king business - it's internal affair of Russian Federation. We don't make political statements regarding police actions during LA riots, so, please, be so kind to shut the f#$k up about what we do in our home.
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OK, there was no Purge. :D
There was no deliberate government generated famine in the Ukraine. :D
The Soviet Union didn't deport thousands upon thousands of Estonians, Lithuanians and Latvians, killing many thousand in the process. :D
Gorbachev lied about Katyn Forest and the documentary proof he provided to Poland was all fake. :D
I won't bother to go search for the casualty totals you were tooting about in Afghanistan, but once again they disagreed with every other source in the known world. :D
And I won't bother to yet again refute your totally bogus "150,000 Iraqi civilian casualties in Desert Storm" that also disagrees with every other source in the known world. :D
Because, after all, you are so far out of touch with reality that you can't recognize it. :D
The truth will set you free....... if you let it.
Originally posted by Boroda
Russia has enough power to make Chechnya a moon surface, but we still are too sentimental and send our boys to find obvious terrorists, and trying to save so-called "civilians".
You could, of course, try bouncing the rubble in Grozny with artillery for another few months like you guys did in '99. After all, EVERY SINGLE PERSON in Grozny is a terrorist, eh? Call it a Sentimental Journey!
Boroda:And it's not your f#$king business - it's internal affair of Russian Federation. We don't make political statements regarding police actions during LA riots, so, please, be so kind to shut the f#$k up about what we do in our home.
You make disparaging comments about everything the US does. But I'm not suprised you don't like anyone discussing what Russia does or has done. Bet you hate it when the Poles discuss Katyn, for example.
Don't know if you can get to this site, but here's a nice "after action" analysis of how Russia stepped on it's crank while wearing golf shoes in Chechnya.
Why the Russian Military Failed in Chechnya (http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/fmsopubs/issues/yrusfail/yrusfail.htm)
Oh... wait... you guys had a "great success" in Chechnya, right? No more problems with THOSE guys.
And in 50 years you can simply deny it even happened! :D
Oh, and by the way...... if there's anyone on this board that would be making Goebbels envious... I think YOU must be the one!
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Boroda from you statement, "Stalin was a wise man. He found the most suitable solution"
I can deduce that either you see nothing wrong with genocidal fascists, or you still believe what you were taught in your soviet history class . Tell me, was there a picture of Stalin hangin on the wall in the classroom ?
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...Yes Borada......
Please list some of your "resources " on the Iraq- And afgahn civilian causalties...
Cause when you didnt..it just makes the rest of your mouth seem isless air passing thru....
Dam ..u really dug yourself a whole with those statemnets
We stopped boming in side Bagdad becuase we kileld a coupl ehundred cicvlians....
You know why??..The diddlying Irag gov..put a transmiisin antenna on top of a fortified Bomb shelter...we bomed this shelter..it was transmitting comm to armed forces...The Command center for this plce was a few hundred yards away...
So after that,,we stopped hitting buildings close to Bagdad....
Yes I dont have the "offical" documnets of this..but neither do you about your "150,000 casultly listings....whisch i smore beleivable??
Love BiGB
xoxoxo
A OK USA!!!!
AMerica #!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
lolol
:)
and by the way..i may not like all the countries in the world..bu ti do love there women.........most of them....
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All nations have done similar things.
Yes, Russia treated people like slaughter animals.
Yes, United States treated people like slaughter animals.
Yes, yada yada yada...
Soviet/Russian/USSR did all the above listed.
USA did things just as bad to their own native populations
So did Spain way back in colonial times
So did the Brits way back in their colonial times
So did the French (who continue to do so with their cousine)
So did the Chinese
So did .
Its sick the 2 of you are slinging this at each other, almost accussing or bragging or DENYING the events.
Plain and simple, its a problem from another era and its still being dealt in the same way, but NOW people are judging events from the past with MODERN morals/mindsets.
Imo, Russia now has been VERY moderate in its response... in contrast with what Cold War/WW2/WW1/Czarist russia wouldve been.
The BAD thing is that NOW we have NATION-STATES with MODERN morals/mindsets (or having to act according to those to avoid the repercussions from the international community) facing ORGANIZATIONS and INDIVIDUALS who'se mindset and morals are still back in primitive->medieval->ww2 times who have access to MODERN technology.
Or those who have nothing to lose and are led/dominated by those with such mindsets/morals.
Its clearly visible.
Israeli->Palestine conflict...years have gone by, thousands of dead MF'ers and they still cant resolve it. One side an organization led by or composed of nutbags that PLAYS on the international community's "modern mindset" while commiting atrocity after atrocity... and BENEFITING from it (because of the "modern mindset"), the other side a modern nation-state of incredibly power but RESTRAINED from using it..because of that "modern mindset"
Iraq->UN/US. Same as above.
Russia->Chechenya. Same as above. I wont deny that historically Russia has had a bit less restraint than other nations in these "modern" times.
Quite an improvement from WW2/Pre-WW2 times dont you think?
Frankly, I think its all this political correctness and international hush-hush that focuses on clawless verbal fights rather than effective ACTION that feeds fuel to these flames.
Arafat certainly plays poker with them.. Saddam has mastered the game.
On a closing thought... what do you think would happen if the US left the United Nations? Left NATO?
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You seem to ignore the fact that there's one guy here that thinks all that stuff just didn't happen.
:D
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:p
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Toad, I have told you many times that when I see two views on our history, one of them from Soviet side, and another one from the enemy - I will choose Soviet side. I am not going to discuss the reliability of yours or mine sources, but I don't want to agree with the enemy.
I wrote the answer on 2 screens, but I have to delete it.
(http://fool.exler.ru/sm/kuli.gif)
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Well, heck yes!
Why bother educating yourself with multiple, diverse history sources when you can just follow the "party line"?
:D
Jeez, don't ever stop posting, please! You're the absolute best ever!
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Boroda is our enemy?
Well, what are we waiting for? Let's go to WAR!
Or maybe we should wait a year or so, so the Russians will have some time to get the big part of their troops combat-ready again.
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NO!
Leave him alone!
He's the enterainment, not the enemy!
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Toad you're pitting reason against faith . It's like the evolution vs the god magic debate. There was only room for one religion in the USSR . Cambodians still think pol pot was great, now they pray to him .
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Ah, the spirit of Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili lives on through people like Boroda. It honestly saddens me that he believes academic debate over historical facts boils down to an "us" versus "them" sort of dichotomy.
The fact is that there are a number of highly critical assessments of the Soviet Union from within itself. How about Colonel Volkogonov's Stalin: Triumph and Tragedy which criticizes Stalin and his long term influence on the USSR's fate? I'm guessing Boroda would declare him a traitor and an enemy of the State.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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....And promptly have him shot in the head in a shallow grave. :D :p
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bump