Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Midnight on October 28, 2002, 08:51:14 AM
-
This “capture the field” Main arena play has absolutely drained away its novelty. All it becomes is a constant gangbanging “capture the field” movement full of roving hordes of JaBo attacks. It’s near impossible to find any good fights at peak hours, because the bases change hands so fast.
Last night, after the Pizza map was reset by the bish (who had nearly 200 players on) it was ndisles. Half of the bish that won the reset didn’t bother coming back in, knowing that they were going to take a gangbang from Rooks and knights. They were right too. In less than 1 hour, the bish were reduced to 6 fields. There were more field capture messages than ‘joeblow landed x kills’ messages.
The main arena, and the whole AH strat model has become too dumbed down. It is far too easy to capture fields now, and bombing strat targets is all but forgotten except for those that want to pad their bomber scores.
Something needs to be done to make this feel more like a war, rather than a moving pork and vulch fest for the country with the most numbers. Personally, I think its time for some sort of limited supply system (which has been suggested in many way by many people) that can slow down the movement and reset of these maps. There should be no way that an entire map can be reset in less than two hours, but as we have seen many times, it happens on a regular basis.
-
Maps rotate so fast these days that all I am ever seeing is the infamous pizza map, and only because it takes the most time to reset due to its size.
Fully agree with Midnight here.
-Amboss
-
MA=Quake
SEA="More like real war"
-
Originally posted by Amboss
Maps rotate so fast these days that all I am ever seeing is the infamous pizza map, and only because it takes the most time to reset due to its size.
Fully agree with Midnight here.
-Amboss
This proves that in theory, the Pizza map IS what AH needs. Maybe not THAT particular map in your opinion, but that size.
-
You know what would be really cool, if they could dynamically change mapsets, from small to medium to large maps, depending on the number of people in the arena....
Mapsize:
<100 people = small
<250 people = medium
>250 people = large
Seems a good way to make sure it won't get boring, either way.
-Amboss
-
that map resets as fast as any of umm. But gameplay in terms of a2a is much funner on the smaller maps because you can actually find a fight.
Field capture as a reset trigger is tired and old. It works with 200 folks. But when you have waves of 50 suicide gangerbangs rollin up on field field after another its no fun.
Shift the reset conditions to the strat model and anyway from airfield grabbing and the small maps will be fun again.
The pizza sux all round. I had been one to argue for larger fronts (especially if you look at midinao). The pizza map swung to the extreme with with many large fronts.
a 512x 512 is the way to go. But you dont have to fill that whole 512 x 512 area with land. You can reduce the land ares so that we can have large fronts and strat zones but not so large as they are in the pizza map. Look at mindinao. The land area is relatively small in comparison with the maps overall square miles.
But simple adjusting the map size wont change what the main has become.
Theres nothing really wrong with any of the maps, its with how gameplay works that creates the problems.
Capture the flag is tired and worn out.
-
Well, here lies the problem. "War" as defined simply...IS Capture the flag. All you can do is add more variables.
-
I would realy like to see the MA go the way of a full Strat model with missions and side commanders a bit like the WW2OL idea. I think there should really be two arenas the MA and a dogfighting arena. A bit like Fightertown in AW. If you wana furball then go to Fightertown but if you wana have fun and fly then go to the MA where we have two or three sides with an indeapth strat model, automated supply lines, TrainStations, Factories, Citys, Lots of vilages all based in a more historical format. So instead of the Pizza Map we will have the Northern Europe Map or the Pacific Map, Africa Map Etc. Even if we don't use historical terrains I think we should have a much larger map with fields as a station for launching aircraft but City's being the Main Targets. All with fully working strat systems and a more intresting method of capturing fields. I really think that airfield capture is outdated and we should move more towards the idea of City Capture.
Think About it...
If there where citys, Really Big Citys that acted like Zone Areas where all the supplies where kept, factories and production lines that affected the progression of the war. Citys that where able to be captured by a formation of C47's who would drop troops and the troops could fight there way into the citys and capture it and subsiquently capture the surrounding airfields. If you want to stop people from upping from a field the bomb the $h1t out of it! Then cut the supply lines so that it can't be resuplied!
It's the way forward guys
-
My main problem with the Pizza Map is that there is just to many fields to close together. Less Fields and more Strat Targets on the Pizza Map with some sort of supply system would rock!
-
Originally posted by Betown
My main problem with the Pizza Map is that there is just to many fields to close together. Less Fields and more Strat Targets on the Pizza Map with some sort of supply system would rock!
Actually, I think some of the fields are too far apart. The only plane I'll fly in the MA is the Mustang (or a 190 with tanks) because everything else takes forrrreeeevvvverrrr to get into attack range. I'd like to see more strat targets in between the airfields to liven up the trip. More ports would also be nice.
-
Hopefully much of this will be solved with the mission based arena but until then the pizza map causes many to stay away.
-
I really think the Mission Arena is going to be one big fat bummer.... I think that nobody is going to go into it because all there main fighting and relaxation is going to be in the Main Arena. Also Adding more arenas is only going to spread out the player base. Which is all in all a bad thing.
If they are going to do anything they should create a Dogfighting Arena and use the MA as the Mission arena with crap loads of strat! Send the bloody furballers to there own arena!
:D
-
There is nothing wrong with furballers. They bring a lot of action into an area.
The problem as I see it is how fast everything moves from one field to the next. The bigger problem is HOW it is done.
For whatever reason, the majority of players have decided it is somehow 'fun' to get in a mission with 20+ other players in fully loaded Typhoons, fly to an enemy field, dive in and then shoot all ords off just before crashing headlong into the dirt.
It just becomes a giant pork fest followed by a short lived vulch fest just before the entire field is magically captured by 10 guys running into a little under-ground room 3 miles away.
Then, no sooner than the field is captured, the enemy is able to launch full scale pork runs to the next field.
Strat and gameplay needs to be changed... badly.
TODs are fun, but certainly not for everyone, and even they are limited to how they can be played due to the strat and gameplay model.
Until the supply system is changed from unlimited supplies to something where there is a fixed quantity that must be replenished, the endless pork and vulch fest will continue forever.
The way it is now
As long as there is just 1 ammo bunker, every plane can take a full load of any type of ordnance they could carry (unlimited)
As long as there is just 1 fighter hanger, an unlimited number of fighters of every type can takeoff.
As long as there is just 1 fuel bunker, every plane that takes off can take 25% of their maximum fuel load, regardless of how many gallons of fuel that represents.
-----
How about...
Once ammo bunkers start to be destroyed, the types of ords available get decreased.
25% bunkers dead = no ords over 500lbs available (no 1k, 2k or 4k bombs)
50% bunkers dead = no ords over 250lbs available
75% bunkers dead = no bombs, rockets only
100% = no ords available at all.
For fuel ==
change it so that the fuel available is based on gallons, rather than percentage. In most cases, bombers don't take more than 50% fuel anyway. Make it so that every supply convoy brings in 5000 gallons of fuel. The base can store 5000 gallons in each fuel bunker. Every time a vehicle or plane leaves the field, whatever it took for gas is deducted from the total stored. If the total stored fuel is used up, nothing can leave from the field until a new supply convoy brings in more fuel. If a fuel bunker is destroyed, then the total fuel storage is decucted by 5000 gallons until the bunker is rebuilt.
----
Change it so that if the supply convoy doesn't make it to the field, it doesn't get rebuilt at all, no just effect times of rebuilds. This would encourage people to actually search for convoys and destroy them. As it is now, who even bothers with those stupid little trucks anyway? And the trains? Huh! it's easier to re-bomb the town or factory than it is to attack a train.
to me, the whole supply system is pointless becuase the field will be rebuilt regardless of convoys, and even if the convoys are stopped, the field retains unlimited supplies anyway.
----
Field capture needs to be changed as well. Let the town become a checkpoint for the supply convoys. If the town is captured, the field gets no more supplies, yet it remains in operation until its existing supplies are used up. That means the attackers have to maintain control of the town long enough to clear out the defenders, but the defenders have the chance of retaking the town if the field has the resources to support a counter attack.
I am sure there are many many more ideas out there, and I am hoping that HTC is examining how to make changes to gameplay. Air-Quake is getting boring.
-
Originally posted by Midnight
For whatever reason, the majority of players have decided it is somehow 'fun' to get in a mission with 20+ other players in fully loaded Typhoons, fly to an enemy field, dive in and then shoot all ords off just before crashing headlong into the dirt.
Newbies. Funny, things I've witnessed lately is vets trying to get in position to get the proximity kill on Suicide dweebs! LOL!
Last night at A56, suicide P51D dweebs was on the menu, I was completely out of ammo, chasing a P51D away from the field (I couldn't land quite yet, as field was under attack ) I finally caught up to him within about D1.0, he ejects himself out of the cockpit rather than giving me the kill. I get the kill anyway, and thank him on private channel for the kill, also telling him I was out of ammo! :D
-
These are excellent (and funny) comments; I expect HTC is reading this carefully.
******
Wotan wrote:
"A 512 x 512 map is the way to go. But you don't have to fill that whole 512 x 512 area with land."
Exactly right.
One problem with the Pizza map is that there's no room for fleets to manuver or hide. Another problem is that the Pizza map has no focus.
******
I think it would be outstanding to actually have supplies delivered and used at fields. It would seem fairly simple to just keep track how much each plane used, and how many gallons were delivered by each convoy or C-47 and available at each field. Instead of a C-47 taking "field supplies" the pilot could choose fuel, or bombs. Of course, trains and convoys can bring in much more than planes. Think how inadequate the Luftwaffe supply effort at Stalingrad was.
******
How about this: Could supplies like barrels of fuel actually pile up around the field as the supply increases? And disappear as they're used? And go up in flames if bombed?
******
MRPLUTO VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~ MAG-33
-
I hope so Pluto..
It's not that we are dissin the game or anything. We all love it and I will continue playing for as long as it takes! But we have played "Air Quake" for a little too long (infact most people since either Warbirds or EVEN Airwarrior) We just really like the strat idea its much better.
I really like the idea of big cities though!
BT
-
Lets face it, online games evolve...bigger community and all. Time for strat to evolve with it.
-
I don't know what all this facination with field capture is lately but it is ruining the fun... everyone is much more timid and will only venture out in hordes... I suspect that a lot of the new guys got tired of getting killed and decided that it was worth not having any fun to play it safe.
Pizza map exagerates the problem... new guys all flying late war fast planes exagerates the problem.... whoever told these guys that capturing a field made em respected is the cause of the problem.
lazs
-
Originally posted by gofaster
Actually, I think some of the fields are too far apart. The only plane I'll fly in the MA is the Mustang (or a 190 with tanks) because everything else takes forrrreeeevvvverrrr to get into attack range. I'd like to see more strat targets in between the airfields to liven up the trip. More ports would also be nice.
That's the sucking fuel modifier. I would really love to fight with an enemy for half an hour, it's just impossible because the fights usually end earlier because of fuel issues.
-
What Midnight said.
My ol' buddy lazs nailed it the other night. "The trick to killin' rooks & bish is figure out which one isn't goin' to lawn dart".
Note: Not an exact quote, to protect the squeamish.
-
Originally posted by Apache
What Midnight said.
My ol' buddy lazs nailed it the other night. "The trick to killin' rooks & bish is figure out which one isn't goin' to lawn dart".
Note: Not an exact quote, to protect the squeamish.
LOL So true these days! :D
-
Originally posted by lazs2
I don't know what all this facination with field capture is lately but it is ruining the fun... everyone is much more timid and will only venture out in hordes... I suspect that a lot of the new guys got tired of getting killed and decided that it was worth not having any fun to play it safe.
This is predicated on the assumption everyone has the same definition of "fun" as you. I suspect there might be a few who find your almighty furball to be a total waste of time.
Personally, I like furballs. I also like capping fields, and I particularly like killing the last fighter hanger on fields that have turned into meatgrinders for three hours and spoiling your "fun". That's the best :D :cool:
-
And i like doing my best to insure that you are unable to ruin the fun of dozens of players in such a simple no talent manner.
I guess if I was afraid to fight I would not want anyone else to have fun fighting either puck. to me tho... ur just a loophole that needs closing.
lazs
-
MA=Quake
SEA="More like real war"
[...]
Well, here lies the problem. "War" as defined simply...IS Capture the flag. All you can do is add more variables.
Something contradicting here; my opinion is the closer the new MT becomes to SEA scenarios, the better the gameplay, which doesn't eliminate lazsian furballs, but probably Quake tactics a minimum.
-
Personally, I think it comes down to the "hardness" of the ground targets. If it took 4-6 eggs to kill something instead of 2 and 30 troops instead of 10 it would be ALOT different. I also think the ndisles? map is about the right size. If it WAS harder, as described above, to kill a base, that map would last ALOT longer. If ammo, fuel, etc... is knocked out at a field before capturing it, it should take longer to replace it. That would give more cause not to kill them and fighter hangers, etc... and would add to making things last longer.
BNMaster
Brewster Buffalos
-
What does it matter how long a base lasts?! It's useless as soon as enemy fighters are over it, shooting everything that tries to take off.
The fight needs to be moved away from the airfields.
-
It just doesn't get any better does it?
-
Originally posted by lazs2
And i like doing my best to insure that you are unable to ruin the fun of dozens of players in such a simple no talent manner.
I guess if I was afraid to fight I would not want anyone else to have fun fighting either puck. to me tho... ur just a loophole that needs closing.
lazs
Ah, but that's the beauty. You can't stop us from "ruining" your fun. Fields will be captured whether it suits you or not. Hangers will be destroyed, goons will be dropped, furballs will be born, grow old and stale, then die.
Haven't I mentioned those things requiring the least talent are the things I'm most talented at?
One of these days when you're bored you can help me improve my 1v1 skill set. Until then I have to muddle through doing what a can.
-
I remember the discussions of MA strat some time ago. Karnak and Wotan stated "attrition has to be left out as a factor".
Maybe its time to reconsider attrition factors.
How about a concept of "stores"?
A field will be given x amount of fuels, ordnances and fighters, bombers and vehicles. It would just be set to infinite when no field strats/hangars are damaged.
However, once a fuel tank(for example) is destroyed, and it shows 75%, this would initiate the attrition factor on the field, with the x amount equivalent to the 75%. Each time fighters or bombers, vehicles up from the field the fuel amount would be used up. When additional fuel tanks are destroyed and gets down to 50%, if there was fuel stores over 50% prior to destruction, the stores will be reduced to 50%(which would be 2/3rd of the x amount).
Same with the hangars. Once a single hangar type is down, the infinite stores for that plane type will be changed to limited stores of x amount.
This would make a lot of people think twice before just wasting away their planes in a suicidal jabo onslaught - both for the defenders and the attackers.
The problem with current "percentage-based strats" is that it has virtually no effect unless its down to 25%, which limits most of the planes. Take down 25% of fuels on an enemy field and still infinite planes can up with 75% fuel and go pork another base.
...
Having more people on the side really SHOULD mean heavier burdens in logistics and resupplies, maintenance. In typical MA situations where the Rooks are the underdogs, if a massive air power decides to attack a Rook base, having limited fuel and sorts will naturally effect the side which has more numbers more seriously, than a side which is lower in numbers.
This would also help revitalize the necessity of resupplying bases in literal terms, than current resupplies which is really nothing but speeding up the rebuild process.
There is still much to think about, but I think sooner or later, the factor of attrition and logistics must kick in.
* More numbers SHOULD mean heavier burdens in logistics and resupplies.
* More numbers also SHOULD mean more people have to actively take part in resupplying bases.
-
"There should be no way that an entire map can be reset in less than two hours, but as we have seen many times, it happens on a regular basis."
Perk the troop carriers,50 perks outta slow the land grab down
-
puck said..."Ah, but that's the beauty. You can't stop us from "ruining" your fun. Fields will be captured whether it suits you or not. Hangers will be destroyed, goons will be dropped, furballs will be born, grow old and stale, then die.
Haven't I mentioned those things requiring the least talent are the things I'm most talented at?
One of these days when you're bored you can help me improve my 1v1 skill set. Until then I have to muddle through doing what a can."
no.. and I wouldn't want to. The fact that you are trying to take fields (and dieing a lot) is what feeds the furball. I want you to attempt to take the base but... I don't want you to be able to make it useless so eaisly.
As for me teaching you anything... I am not a good teacher. better that you actually engage in some fitghts and then you will learn about it. With your average of less than 4 kills per hour it will take you a long time to get past your 1/1 k/d ratio in fighters. you simply need to get more experiance.
lazs
-
Right now basically the the MA is about numbers. While numbers are not everything usually the fact that you can die and up again right afterwards turns the arena to a war of attrition or war of wills. There is no real penalty for dying or incentive (out of stats) for not dying. Leading to suicide tiffie missions among others.
Maybe if something as simple as putting a time penalty in place would correct some of the problems associated with unlimited deaths and unlimited reups.
Simply say if you lose your place you can not respawn for a 1 minute or 2 minutes. Basically a time period that will make people try to land there planes instead of losing them but not too long that people would log off do to annoyance that they can not fly.
Just a crazy thought I had off the top of my head.
-
Time penalty would not really be too much of an incentive to live and fly home unless it was a long penalty. If it takes 10 minutes to fly back, and only 1 minute of penalty... well... the auger types will just auger.
Give everyone 4 lives per hour. If they use them up carelessly, then they have to wait for the next hour before they can get a new vehicle. Allow them to be a gunner or drive all the goons they want, just not insta-spawning every 20 seconds.
People love to whine and say how this is a game and that there is nothing wrong with 'gaming'. For them, I say look at it this way...
Even in Quake, you don't start out with the BFG super power gun and mega-armor. You start with a pistol. You have to earn power ups and special items.
So, here is Aces High... You can insta-spawn as much as you want in C47s and M3s or gunner positions, but you only get to choose a new 'power-up' ride 4 times per hour. Think of everything that is not listed previously as a 'power up' item.
The gamers are used to that kind of thing in every other game out there (the concept of having to earn the 'power ups' by staying alive and getting by with the standard issue gun/car/sword/whatever until they find them) so why not the same concept in Aces High?
-
Originally posted by Midnight
... The gamers are used to that kind of thing in every other game out there (the concept of having to earn the 'power ups' by staying alive and getting by with the standard issue gun/car/sword/whatever until they find them) so why not the same concept in Aces High?
Because we are not gamers, you gamer ;) . We are not that low. We are simmers, and appreciate historical engagements in historical rides... Btw, are you calling me a gamer???? :D
Cheers,
-
Of course therein lies the problem. AH has to cater to both the gamers AND the simmers. The gamers will have a fit if they can't up from anywhere in anything and suicide run to their hearts content. The simmers want to limit any play that doesn't fit their ideal of a simulation. The needs are contradictory, and the solution is unlikely to make both camps happy.
Other than baiting Lazs I don't have an answer that's likely to improve the current situation. Personally I'm more of a simmer than a gamer so I'd like to see "more realistic" play.
-
Click down below
SKurj
-
Originally posted by Midnight
Give everyone 4 lives per hour. If they use them up carelessly, then they have to wait for the next hour before they can get a new vehicle. Allow them to be a gunner or drive all the goons they want, just not insta-spawning every 20 seconds.
I've been putting some thought into a possibility even more diabolical...
It's similar to the idea of having the available number of planes limited, but instead of applying it per team, it's applied per-player.
Each plane would gain two new values, in addition to ENY and cost. "Maximum Available" and "Build time".
Each player would start off with the maximum available of each plane. Everytime they died in one, that player would lose one count for that plane(It's per-player, what other players do has no effect on your personal hangar)
If the player didnt have the maximum number of planes available, they would gradually rebuild, with the build time representing how long it takes to replace a single plane with a countries strat at 100%. As a country's strat got bombed, the rebuild rate would drop(perhaps to as much as 25% of normal) Your hangar would rebuild while you're offline, not just in-game. This would give strat a usefull roll, and make it somewhat more important since it would effect you even when you weren't online.
EVERY plane would gain a cost, not just the perk planes, based on the plane. (My thoughts are 1-10 perks for everything up to but excluding the 40 ENY planes) If you ran out of a specific plane, it would cost you the cost * the percentage of the build time left before another plane would be available. So if you had lost all of your spit9's, and it's cost was set at 10(just for simplicity) build time at 1 hour, and you had 30 minutes before the next one would be available, it would cost you 5 perks(Half the build time left, half the perks). And the timer for the plane currently being "built" would be reset. Also, when you "bought" a plane, the perks would be immediatly removed from your count, and the available counter increased. (In effect instantly finishing the "construction")
This system does have one large advantage in that, it makes planes like the 262 available even to newbies, without letting them takeover the arena.
So, perk planes would have a maximum available of only one(excepting perhaps the f4u1c, and ta152, which might be higher, and the 234 which would be 3 to allow for a formation) and a long build time(weeks to a month)
As for the "free" planes, the build times for most of the currently free planes would be set up so that there were ~5 planes available, and a rebuild time of ~4 hours. The reasoning is fairly simple. It's designed so as to have no penealty for those who don't have the time to play more than an hour or so a day. (Hard to lose 5 of any plane that quickly, short of letting yourself get vulched!) Those who DO play longer will have the perks available to fly the planes they want to, but suicide type attacks would be dramaticly lowered.
I personally believe that a system like this would not only do a better job of getting more of a variety of planes into the air, but offer some very strong reasons to fly the very high eny planes, that aren't normally flown, especially for things like base defense. (Giving the fighter-only planes an attack option would probably do a lot also) It adds a cost to dying constantly, but a cost which pretty much anyone can afford, even though they can afford it, it will get people to put a bit more thought into dying.
So there is a good reason to avoid dying, perks are more usefull, and there is little practical restriction to planes, short of constant, short lived, suicides.(i.e. letting yourself get vulched)
Wow, if you've gotten this far, please comment and tell me how wrong I am. No cheating and posting before reading the whole design!
-
Innominate
Sounds like a good idea. I would go for something along these lines if HTC were to implement it.
You can still fly what you like, you just have to be a little more careful with it.
This would still allow constant respawning during base attacks, but would prevent said spawning from being LA7s every time.
-
Midnight has it right. Improve the strat and everything else takes care of itself.
SKurj has alot of good ideas but I suspect it would take 10 man years to implement them all.
Innominate is going the wrong way. If I can't fly the plane I want them i'm going to log off and play a game I like. If you want to limit plane types then do it to the guys that are landing double digit kills in 262's. Those guys are reducing the "fun" factor for the masses much more than the lawn dart guys. It's not fun flying 15 mins and then dying within 10 seconds of seeing a red icon.
-
Originally posted by Mooja
Midnight has it right. Improve the strat and everything else takes care of itself.
SKurj has alot of good ideas but I suspect it would take 10 man years to implement them all.
Innominate is going the wrong way. If I can't fly the plane I want them i'm going to log off and play a game I like. If you want to limit plane types then do it to the guys that are landing double digit kills in 262's. Those guys are reducing the "fun" factor for the masses much more than the lawn dart guys. It's not fun flying 15 mins and then dying within 10 seconds of seeing a red icon.
I disagree with your interpretation. One you can do something about, the other is out of our hands.
If one is getting killed by 262's, they need to practice. Just get out of his way and he'll blow right past you.
What can one do about the subject matter?
There are hordes of "lawn dart guys". Multiple kill 262 sorties are rare.
-
Originally posted by Apache
I disagree with your interpretation. One you can do something about, the other is out of our hands.
If you want to press the point then you can do someting about both. i.e. Lawn darters may have a higher tendency to fly home if they didn't feel their death was already inevitable. Break off the attack and most likely they won't lawn dart. You can see though that this would be about as fun a dodging a 262 vulcher all night long.
If one is getting killed by 262's, they need to practice. Just get out of his way and he'll blow right past you.
...and past you... and past you... and past you.... It might be easier just to lawn dart and up somewhere else so he can aim his insessant vulchfest on some other slug. Or maybe just log off and go do something fun.
There are hordes of "lawn dart guys". Multiple kill 262 sorties are rare.
Lawn dart guys affect one person behind them. 262 vulchers affect potentially dozens per sortie all night long. I think it would be a stretch to call them rare as well. I see them quite frequently.
-
There is a simpler solution. You can't perk more planes or a lot of guys will squeal... you can't make people wait and do nothing as a penalty..
What yu can do is perk bombs.
Make every bomb over a single 250 lb bomb a perk. In order to earn a perk bomber point you have to survive the mission and hit something besides the bare ground or ocean.
That will reduce the suicide bomber problem somewhat and... it is adjustable by perk point value.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Mooja
Lawn dart guys affect one person behind them. 262 vulchers affect potentially dozens per sortie all night long. I think it would be a stretch to call them rare as well. I see them quite frequently.
Statistically, your argument has no merit. Using this tour, the 262 has 2889 kills. Why, that monster of all monsters, the Yak9U has almost double the kills at 5926.
Yes, rare indeed.
-
Originally posted by Apache
Statistically, your argument has no merit. Using this tour, the 262 has 2889 kills. Why, that monster of all monsters, the Yak9U has almost double the kills at 5926.
Yes, rare indeed.
I see nothing in those stats that speak to multi-kill sorties. If you've been following then you'd know that is a main point.
-
Originally posted by Mooja
I see nothing in those stats that speak to multi-kill sorties. If you've been following then you'd know that is a main point.
You mis-understand this debate. The argument is, what affects game play the most? You stated that 262 vultchers had more affect than "lawn dart guys". The fact that said 262 kills were multi-kill sorties or not has no bearing.
-
Originally posted by Apache
You mis-understand this debate. The argument is, what affects game play the most? You stated that 262 vultchers had more affect than "lawn dart guys". The fact that said 262 kills were multi-kill sorties or not has no bearing.
I believe it does have a bearing which is why I started the debate you say i'm misunderstanding. Perhaps you'd be more likely to lawn dart with a Yak behind you rather than a 262 but in general I don't believe that is the case. I also don't believe it's the case that the same 262 vulch pilot can up a Yak and land multi-kill vulch sorties with the same ease.
-
Very well. We are arguing a point neither of us can prove nor disprove. You see what you see, I see what I see.
Agreeing to disagree, I think, is the prudent thing here.
BTW, you're spot on on the KS thing.
-
innominate is wrong about this as well...
Restricting and limiting what, where and when folks can fly is the quickest way to cause folks to log. We dont need any of this or a variation of such.
-
Well Wotan, in that case we prolly just gonna have people log out because they get tired of this senseless Airquake that the MA currently is.
Perks are in a way already limiting what people can fly, and in my personal opinion, people are not going to log just because they can't fly the Tempest or 262 they would really like to fly right now.
All that currently matters are numbers and fields. Just throw a neverending stream of people vs. an airfield and sooner or later they will overwhelm the field and take it. And what really is sad that it takes no skill whatsoever if you have the numbers. The whole issue is reinforced by the infinite supplies currently available and the fact that the win conditions are having the most fields and reducing one country to one field.
I tell you what, sooner or later even those that continually win resets will tire of this pointless system. At some point, taking fields will become so mechanical and boring that only braindead people will find enjoyment in it.
I think it's just a fact here that we are dealing with two different playertypes, the furballing-gamey types and the strategical realism minded ones and we somehow have to come up with a MA concept that satisfies both player types because we don't want to loose either of the two since they make for a rich experience.
-Amboss
-
I have made numerous detailed suggestions on how to shift gameplay from the airfields to strat.
I am not gonna keep retyping it.
But the main is not a war, we dont need half-assed scenario rules in place. You think the rooks have it bad now have umm get their "death quota" filled or their "spawn limit" filled and lotsa of umm will just switch sides or quit ah.
Theres nothing wrong wanting a2a combat. Thats the only reason I enter the main. I dont care about field capture, "winning the war" or any of that crap.
It used to be that 15 or 20 guys we come into a field drop their bombs and mix it up with the defenders. Good fights will develop and as the tide shifted back and forth between the closest bases we ended up with a real fun furball.
The only thing that upset that balance was a fluffer coming into to kill the fhs for no reason but to feel important.
Now we get 50 suicidal dweebs killing themselves over and over to get the field objects down. They dont even fight then run right to the fields pass the defenders and ride their bombs in. There is always more of these attackers then defenders and "death quotas" and "spawn limits" or "aircraft attrition" do nothing but make it easier for this type of gangbang to succeed.
Shifting reset conditions to something other then the airfields like the suggestions I and others have made will encourage those who want to "win the war" to adjust their efforts away from base rape.
It doesnt eliminate field capture, it doesnt stop folks from flying what when or how they want. It simply shifts the focus else where.
Putting the reset conditions on the strat model also will give the bombers a little more impact on the "war" then they have now.
But it doesnt stop people who dont give a crap about "capture the flag" from having fun as well.
Clearly from my dealings with the suicide hordes they claim they are just trying to help win the war. In their quest to achieve this they rationalize all types of behavior. Its their money and time and they can do what they want. But we can adjust the reset conditions in such a way as limit their impact on the rest of us.
We dont need less a2a combat in the main. Look at the pizza map. Lotsa folks dont even bother logging in when this map in rotation. Theres simply to much "war winning" and "milkrunning" and not enough a2a combat for it to be fun.
The best thing to do is not worry about how or what or where other folks fly but to tweak the reset conditions in such a way that encourages the "war winners" to adjust their direction.
They can still suicide airfields and kill themselves all they want. But when they realize it wont "win the war" they will go to where they are "helping" to "win the war".
-
The solution is two part and simple..
One... an early war area within the arena where only early planes are allowed.. that will kill the lopsided thing without more sensless and unfair perks that cause problems..
Two.... perk every bomb over 250 lbs for fighters. you don't earn fighter/bomber perk points unless you survive a jabo sortie. The attention starved and lazy suicide bomber numbers will drop dramaticly.. you can adjust the "bomb perk" value as needed.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Wotan
...
Now we get 50 suicidal dweebs killing themselves over and over to get the field objects down. They dont even fight then run right to the fields pass the defenders and ride their bombs in. There is always more of these attackers then defenders and "death quotas" and "spawn limits" or "aircraft attrition" do nothing but make it easier for this type of gangbang to succeed.
Shifting reset conditions to something other then the airfields like the suggestions I and others have made will encourage those who want to "win the war" to adjust their efforts away from base rape.
It doesnt eliminate field capture, it doesnt stop folks from flying what when or how they want. It simply shifts the focus else where.
Putting the reset conditions on the strat model also will give the bombers a little more impact on the "war" then they have now.
But it doesnt stop people who dont give a crap about "capture the flag" from having fun as well.
If you move the reset conditions to the factories, the 50 strong JaBo raids will just move there too. It will still be endless waves of suicide dweebs and nothing will have been accomplished.
Why do people have the notion that limiting A/C availability based on your survivability rate will make players leave? If they go to play doom again, they are getting the same thing. If you die, you restart with a pistol and a knife. You have to survive long enough to go and find the BFG2000 (you earn it). If you die, you're back to the ole' trusty pistol again.
I know AH is not Doom or Quake, but in just about every single pure gamer's video game, your character starts out with the basic issue junk and you have to survive and use 'skill' to gain the better weapons and other neat toys. I don't see how making AH emulate that just slightly will be a detracting factor.
If players have no reason to try and keep from being killed, they won't try.
-
suicide dweebs dont bother me a bit as long as they arent porking airfields. who cares if they kill themsdelves. Besides like I said I posted in detail my suggestions on how to address the reset conditions.
I suggested many more and much larger strat facilities wrapped in multiple zones. I suggested increasing the structure hardness etc...... I not gonna typing it all out again.
If you move the reset conditions to the factories, the 50 strong JaBo raids will just move there too. It will still be endless waves of suicide dweebs and nothing will have been accomplished.
Accomplished? Theres nothing to accomplish but to limit the impact those who choose to suicide on the rest of us. If they want to spend there time in ah flying into the ground at a fuel factory I could careless. Its there money. Just like I could careless about cv suiciders. It doesnt effect me. I dont want to change how folks fly. I just want to be able to pop in an hour or so a day, take off and have a few good fights. The rest of its all bs to me.
Why do people have the notion that limiting A/C availability based on your survivability rate will make players leave?
Because I would. I am not gonna spend my time chasing after timid 30k runners who are so afraid to fight because they may burn up their quotas. You also realize your plane of choice is the most shot down in ah. Whether you are arguing about straight "attrition" or "attrition" at the individual airfield level the probrability of you getting to fly your plane will be pretty low. You will then argue that you "deserve" to fly the p51 because everyone else are dweebs and dont fly it right and you get stuck flying other planes.
If you die, you restart with a pistol and a knife. You have to survive long enough to go and find the BFG2000 (you earn it). If you die, you're back to the ole' trusty pistol again.
So are you going to fly a p40b until you earn a p51d? :rolleyes:
If players have no reason to try and keep from being killed, they won't try.
Again who cares if folks dont mind dieing or being killed. I like killing folks. I like folks who fight. I hate running after dweebs who will come in at 30k in the fastest planes and who will run to keep from being killed rather then get aggressive. We dont need a more timid main. We dont need less a2a combat. All we need is to be ablesto take off and find a fight without it taking up all the limited time folks may have to fly.
Events run 4 times a week in ah. Theres all the plane/life attrition one could want. In the main I just wanna fight. But those who care or have fun "winning the war" should have the ability to find there fun however they can. If thats suiciding and killing the tricky sneaky ground structures then I have np with it. All I wanna do is limit their impact on me.
We can adjust structure hardness and downtimes. Increase the amount of ack. We can add more strat objects and make them larger. We can create a level of strat that takes some coordination and effort to destroy or reset. It can more then just roll up and suicide one right after another.