Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: MANDOBLE on October 28, 2002, 01:29:05 PM
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So we have a reason to double perk the La7.
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whe first time la7 apared in aH it vas realy lame plane, but then , some new patch made some plane,s ignore E stats, and the LA7 dweb was born:D
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Agreed, Dora and LA7 should be perked, about the same IMO.
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I'm all for a small perk value being put on the Dora, P51, La7, ect, ect...
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Please, Perk The Dora
Then what are you and I going to fly?!??!?!?! :D :p
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Originally posted by JB73
Then what are you and I going to fly?!??!?!?! :D :p
LOL, it is obvious: a perked DORA ;)
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A perked late war low altitude D model would fix this problem.
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The only FW that killed me this tour is the Dora....needs to be perked IMO ;)
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Originally posted by Heinkel
I'm all for a small perk value being put on the Dora, P51, La7, ect, ect...
Why perk some of the easiest planes to kill? Instead of perking them, why not take the time to learn some tactics? That way you won't look like a llama whining about the planes that shoot you down the most.
The only plane that needs to be perked is the Me262, because in large numbers, that is the only plane that will effect gameplay and balance.
Ack-Ack
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Whiners
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Agree: whiners.
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Dora dominates the LA7
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mmmm MANDOBLE and DORA.....I think that it would be more just perking MANDOBLE. It is there where really that combo excels.
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fly the la7 mandoble
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No
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Hey, thinking about the joke above..I have just thought something that surely it could have been be already post, but It would be a lot of fun to perk pliots based upon his performance in his last tour :)
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Perk La-7, 109 G-10, P-51D, 190 D-9.
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G-10??...Why?
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why not be consequent and perk all Planes, minus the Early War Planes?
Early War Planes are perk free.
Planes that arrived later in the War are perked according to their
"uberness factor", compared with others.
One concession may have to be made...
the largest player base is probably from the US so:
perk free Planes start with Amerikas entry into the War,
yet if you choose to fly earlier European Planes you are
rewarded more perks.
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I don't know about perking ALL planes except early war ones, but
I could definitely see lightly perking later war variants of plane and leaving the earlier variants free.
There are alot of planes to fly in AH, but most people chose the best free plane they can get (a rational decision), hence the hordes of LA-7s, N1Ks, Spit IXs, and P-51Ds.
It would be interesting to see what happens to planeset variety if HTC expands the number of perked planes but keeps their cost low.
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I thought Perk System was introduced to balance plane usage, and it was totally unrelated to performance aspects of each plane.
I don't really care about Perks at the time being. I fly La-7 occasionally and deal with them when they are near.
Should Perk System be revisited, IMHO, the less-used half of current planeset would be unperked. The other half of the planeset should be exponentially perked based on Arena usage. That way we should end with roughly 50% of the planeset free, 35% of the planeset lightly perked, 10% medium to highly perked, and 5% very highly perked.
Oh well...
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Originally posted by Pepe
I thought Perk System was introduced to balance plane usage, and it was totally unrelated to performance aspects of each plane.
I think perks are given to planes that would disrupt the game balance in the arena. The La7, N1K2 and the other so-called 'uber' planes don't disrupt the game balance of the arena and shouldn't be perked. Who cares if 6 out of 10 guys fly the La7 or some other 'uber' plane? Most of the guys that fly these planes suck anyways and are easy to kill. Because when you get down to it, it's the pilot and not the plane but some seem not to realize that.
Ack-Ack
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I agree with Pepe.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
... Who cares if 6 out of 10 guys fly the La7 or some other 'uber' plane? ...
Ack-Ack
I don't care, kill-wise, but it's booooring to see always the same 3 planes.
I rather like some diversity on my menu :D
Cheers,
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Everybody was crying for the P-40
now look at these stats from Tour 33
[list=1]
The P-40B has 208 kills and has been killed 677 times.
The P-40E has 747 kills and has been killed 1092 times.
The La-7 has 25721 kills and has been killed 21063 times.
[/list]
"The La7, N1K2 and the other so-called 'uber' planes don't disrupt the game balance of the arena"
Really?
"Most of the guys that fly these planes suck anyways and are easy to kill.
Because when you get down to it, it's the pilot and not the plane but some seem not to realize that."
Really? 25721 minus 21063 equals 4658. That's 4658 kills plus for the La-7.
I'm with Pepe and Oboe on this one.
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No, don't perk any more planes. The ones already perked are more than enough, especially since these were relatively limited in number or war impact.
Keep trying to perk planes that become dominant and eventually we'll all be flying only the early war planes, and the war was not won with those.
The biggest perk is such a challenge that it has not even been introduced yet: the B-29 --the king of the hill bomber with plenty of numbers and plenty of influence.
But actually 200 points for the B-29, same as the Me 262, should be about right.
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I know it's a joke, but the Dora isn't easy to fly. It's a great plane (I fly it all the time) but it took me quite a while to really appreciate it. And I agree with the others that LA7s are pretty much poorly flown. I'm an alt monkey and I find it easy to pull the old rope a dope on those poor LA7s. I know some good pilots fly LA7s bu that's pretty obvious from the outset.
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WOOT!
Welcome back to the BBS minus!!!
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Keep the D9 unperked, and perk a low altitude dora varient.
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Um.
La-7 has 579 Kills of Fw 190D-9
Fw 190D-9 has 750 Kills of La-7
Let's compare that to the other perked planes:
Tempest has 57 Kills of Fw 190D-9
Fw 190D-9 has 21 Kills of Tempest
Ta 152H has 16 Kills of Fw 190D-9
Fw 190D-9 has 16 Kills of Ta 152H
Spitfire Mk XIV has 19 Kills of Fw 190D-9
Fw 190D-9 has 19 Kills of Spitfire Mk XIV
Me 262 has 63 Kills of Fw 190D-9
Fw 190D-9 has 13 Kills of Me 262
F4U-4 has 16 Kills of Fw 190D-9
Fw 190D-9 has 8 Kills of F4U-4
F4U-1C has 84 Kills of Fw 190D-9
Fw 190D-9 has 87 Kills of F4U-1C
Well now that's pretty interesting. It seems the Dora dominates the La-7, and except for the F4U-1C the Dora has a 1:1 or lesser K/D ratio against perked planes. If these two planes were perked, it's clear that the Dora would and should cost more than the La-7.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Um.
F4U-4 has 16 Kills of Fw 190D-9
Fw 190D-9 has 8 Kills of F4U-4
-- Todd/Leviathn
heehee I got 5 of those myself. It was pure joy to face those speed demons in an AC that was a match for it.
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I would like to see most planes perked in the MA, starting with the mid-war models being perked at 1-5 points and increasing as they become more uber.
Saying that the late-war models shouldn't be perked because the early-war models didn't win the war is nonsense. The Spit's and Hurri's won the war in 1940. The Lagg-3's and Yak-1 and 3's in 1941. The P40's and F4F's in 1942. If not for these planes and the men who flew them we would all be speaking German or Japanese.
Taking advantage of the perkpoint system we could have a MA where a lot of the wonderfully diverse and interesting early to mid war aircraft were used more. We could still fly the late war torque-monsters, just don't loose them quite as often. This would solve the problem with the Typhoon suicide-dweebs as well.
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Also saying "it's the man, not the machine" is also nonsensical. Surly an excellent pilot in a 109E4 can beat a novice in a P51, but given close to equal skill it's all the machine ... and luck.
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"Saying that the late-war models shouldn't be perked because the early-war models didn't win the war is nonsense. "
That's not the point. The point is--how many people will simply quit AH if you take away the option for them to fly what they want? I would, for one, and I know I'm not alone in that opinion.
Look at numbers in WB's (and older and more established game than AH) compared to here. More and more restrictions invariably reduces player base; having more options increases player base.
IMO what AH needs to do is move away from the "one MA all the time" concept.
J_A_B
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I understand your concerns, but I don't think giving mid to late war models low perkpoint costs will rob people of their favorite planes. I get the impression that most pilots that have some time in the game have hundreds of perkpoints, some have thousands ... why? Because the perkpoint system isn't being utilized properly. I honestly think the current MA setup robs people of the enjoyment of flying the planes they WOULD like to fly, because I don't think there are THAT many LA-7 fans out there. I bet most La-7 drivers feels forced to up the La-7 because so many others do, and with it they stand a greater chance of survival in that environment.
That said, I rarely fly the LA-7 anymore, but I have to pick my fights carefully. I would like to be part of a more active sqd so we could use team tactics to even out the score, but unfortunately I'm not. Luckily I enjoy long flights, climbing to my target area, lurking outside radar range to bounce on unwary pray. But for the average players who perhaps don't have the time to spend half an hour setting up for a fight, there is really no alternative to the uber-planes. Unless they are uber-pilots, or enjoy getting shot down a lot.
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Hmm.
First, I fly both of the p40s on occaasion, rarely though, for two main reasons. The ENY is WAY too low(40 for a plane that is only above the 234 and boston in the kill counts!, 35 for the one that just edges out the 202!) It doesn't help to have only the early war planes lack an "Attack" scoring option, which means those who care about thier score don't have much of an option to fly them.
The problem with the la7 isn't actually it's speed. The dora will dominate the la7 perked or not, because they're completly different planes. The dora is not an easy plane to fly, and because of that it mostly flown by better pilots. It may be fast, but it's level accelleration is marginal at best.
What makes the la7 weak is that it's usually fllown at low alts, making it fairly vulnerable to attacks from above.
What makes it strong is that, at those low alts, the la7 is able to engage in turn fights, roll out of it, and accellerate away from the fight, without trouble. The la7's speed, and turning ability is important, but it's the awesome accelleration next to it that makes it so lethal, and often so frustrating.
The dora may be fast, it may be excellent and uncatchable as a bnz plane, but it doesn't have the same abilities of the la7 in any way, shape, or form. The only way to justify perking the dora is to bring down the standard for perk planes, and perk all of the 1944 monsters.
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S!
Just remove ALL German and Russian planes from the plane set, that should do it, and the Niki of course;):DIMO Dora is not an Uber-plane if not flown as it should be using B&Z and such.
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Originally posted by robsan
[/list]
"The La7, N1K2 and the other so-called 'uber' planes don't disrupt the game balance of the arena"
Really?[/B]
Give me one example where the La7 or the N1K2 tip the game balance unfavorably?
"Most of the guys that fly these planes suck anyways and are easy to kill.
Because when you get down to it, it's the pilot and not the plane but some seem not to realize that."
Really? 25721 minus 21063 equals 4658. That's 4658 kills plus for the La-7.
I'm with Pepe and Oboe on this one. [/B]
All that really proves is that it's one of the favored rides in the arena. If you want a good indicator, look at some of the better pilot scores like Leviathn's. He's 40-7 against the La7 and 55-10 against the N1K2, all while flying the Spitfire V. So if an early war plane that is inferior to one of the 'uber' planes has such a kill record against them, then it only leads one to see that when it comes down to it, it is the pilot and not the plane. EVen I have a winning record over both the La7 and N1K2 and I fly the P-38L, another supposedly inferior plane to the two 'uber' planes.
(http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/479th_shield.jpg)
Ack-Ack
479th FG - Riddle's Raiders
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I think perks are given to planes that would disrupt the game balance in the arena. The La7, N1K2 and the other so-called 'uber' planes don't disrupt the game balance of the arena and shouldn't be perked. Who cares if 6 out of 10 guys fly the La7 or some other 'uber' plane? Most of the guys that fly these planes suck anyways and are easy to kill. Because when you get down to it, it's the pilot and not the plane but some seem not to realize that.
Ack-Ack
Balance? What balance? Tonight... 67 Rooks, 125 Bishop, and 128 Knits.
Balance... uh huh... sure.
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LOL! DB603 :D Innominate and DB603 are right. The La-7's strength is not that it's especially good at catching others, but it's phenomenal ability to get out of trouble (which novice pilots always blunder into). And let's face it ... surviving and landing a few kills is what we all want to do. The Dora is superior if flow correctly, but it bleeds E badly in turns and can't accelerate out of trouble like the La-7. It's more WORK flying the Dora.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
. EVen I have a winning record over both the La7 and N1K2 and I fly the P-38L, another supposedly inferior plane to the two 'uber' planes.
The La-7 is a favorite with the novice pilots because of its survivability. That you get more of them than they of you only complement your skill . Face an average pilot like me (I don't presume to be more) in a La-7 1-on-1 in your P38 and I can (almost) guarantee I will ruin your day. ;)
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Deleted double post.
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The more experienced pilots seldom fly alone, while novices usually fly alone in a crowd. You can't take statistics like Leviathn's godlike 40-7 score against the La-7 as if they were all 1on1. A La-7 will own a Spit V in a 1on1. Two Spit V's vs. one La-7 is another matter entirely.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Balance? What balance? Tonight... 67 Rooks, 125 Bishop, and 128 Knits.
Balance... uh huh... sure.
But that has nothing to do with the a certain plane causing one country having low numbers.
Ack-Ack
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La-7s the best plane in the MA, hands down, bar none. That said, the pilots in question are often somewhat lacking in the skill department, which allows a better pilot in a somewhat inferior plane a shot at killing them.
Good pilots in the La-7 are few and far between, because if they chose to fly it there wouldn't be much of challenge in the game.
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we need an area in the arena for early war planes only where they won't be forced to fight late war monsters... let the monsters have each other.
seen many P40's or F4f's in the arena lately? bet the new stuka will get used about as much... How bout those 202's and spit ones?
lazs
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Originally posted by Urchin
Good pilots in the La-7 are few and far between, because if they chose to fly it there wouldn't be much of challenge in the game.
Bullseye!
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Originally posted by GScholz
You can't take statistics like Leviathn's godlike 40-7 score against the La-7 as if they were all 1on1. A La-7 will own a Spit V in a 1on1. Two Spit V's vs. one La-7 is another matter entirely.
On the contrary, I'd say that a majority of my kills on La-7s have come from 1v1 or worse odds. It's easy to force La-7s to overshoot when they're barrelling in fast, allowing for snapshot kills. In addition, it's insanely easy to sucker most La-7s into sooner or later committing to a turnfight against a Spit once they think they can obtain the kill quickly by doing so. That's when you reel them in and make them pay.
The Spit V's strength against the La-7 is frustration. While the Spit V rarely dictates the terms of the fights 1v1, it can also continuously frustrate the La-7 until he either runs or makes a mistake. About the only time I've died to La-7s this tour (or just about any other) has been while otherwise engaged and outnumbered by other enemies in the area.
Perk the La-7? I'd rather not, as I enjoy fighting them.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I completely agree, Todd. If you know how to exploit your plane's strengths and the other's weaknesses, you'll win. On equal footing, an La7 vs. an La7, it is absolutely about who is the smarter pilot. Fly a spitV vs. an La7 and it is the smarter pilot that wins again. As was said earlier, you throw a novice in a 1945 uber-plane and an expert in a 1940 slug, and I'd put money on the guy in the early-war bird.
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Originally posted by GScholz
The La-7 is a favorite with the novice pilots because of its survivability. That you get more of them than they of you only complement your skill . Face an average pilot like me (I don't presume to be more) in a La-7 1-on-1 in your P38 and I can (almost) guarantee I will ruin your day. ;)
Next time you're up in the MA same times as me, lets go to the DA. Would be fun to find out.
Ack-Ack
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The La7 might be a popular plane, but not more so than several others, like the Pony, N1K and Spit IX. If it were so great, wouldn't it finish #1 overall in popularity, or K/D vs fighters? Best it's finished in popularity is 3rd in the last 4 tours, most times it's 4th. The La7 also really doesn't stand out in the stats when you look at K:D vs fighters (thanks to AKDejaVu for all the numbers). It averages about 15-16th overall in any of the last 4 or so tours in K:D, consistently beat out by the 190A8, Ki61, N1K. The plane is good, but it's not very overwhelming it would seem.
The La7 is simply not a balanced aircraft. It's 8 parts defensive speed, and 2 parts offense. Avoiding deaths to La7's isn't that hard, but catching one in order to shoot it down can be. The La7's worst fear is a diving N1K or Spit, force it to turn and slow, then it's easy meat.
-Soda
The Assassins.
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We are talking about D9 and La7, not about uberantigravitational ufos armed with hispanos.
uh, and a secret, D9s dominate and will dominate La7s while most La7 pilots are newbies.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
We are talking about D9 and La7, not about uberantigravitational ufos armed with hispanos.
[/B]
Oh, then surely you're also suggesting that we perk the Spit V, right?
ROFL
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by lazs2
we need an area in the arena for early war planes only where they won't be forced to fight late war monsters... let the monsters have each other.
Yes! or something to allow the early war planes a fleeting chance.
The early war planes are hopelessly outclassed in the MA with the current setup. There is no even balance or something to make them viable.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Yes! or something to allow the early war planes a fleeting chance.
The early war planes are hopelessly outclassed in the MA with the current setup. There is no even balance or something to make them viable.
-SW
Tactics play a big part in the perception that early war planes are outclassed. If you try to fly them like the "monsters" you will die.
I find that at mid-low MA alts (7k down to 1k) most of the early plane set will have more than a passing chance of "dominating" (why does that word keep turning up in this thread?) a "monster", particularly if you can judge the E state of your opponent with reasonable accuracy.
I am by no means the best proponent of early war aircraft management, but I can do slightly better than stay even if I keep my brain engaged (and I'm not even that bright):
"palef has 7 kills and has been killed 4 times in the P-40B.
palef has 27 kills and has been killed 19 times in the C.202.
palef has 13 kills and has been killed 14 times in the Hurricane IID. (One of those kills was a 190D9)
palef has 24 kills and has been killed 14 times in the Hurricane IIC. (Arguably an early war aircraft with a "monster" armament)."
(These stats are from the current tour)
Widewing attests mightily to the fact that reasonable tactics can lend a great deal of success. He also shows what extensive practice of those tactics can achieve (I hate bloody SBDs now - Widewing).
(edit here - left this out) "widewing has 106 kills and has been killed 27 times in the SBD-5."
It is really easy to get sucked into the "OOOOOO Look a plane!! Kill it!!!!" when in desparate straights when a bit of thought might help you set up a way out or a kill.
It is definitely harder to "succeed" in an early war aircraft, but it is by no means impossible. and infinitely more rewarding than saddling up a Niki, LA7, or Spit IX.
I don't perceive the 190-D9 as unbalancing the MA to great extent. I've also found that as my experience mounts it is becoming easier to counter the Spit Hordes, Nikis, and LA7s. I wasn't around for the pre-Chog perk days, but buy all anecdotal acoounts it was responsible for more than 20% of all kills before it was perked. Surely the D9 is nowhere near this figure as it requires quite some skill (like most 190s) to get the best out of it.
"The Fw 190D-9 has 15207 kills and has been killed 8456 times."
"All planes have 498617 kills and have been killed 498617 times."
3.05% of all kills and 1.70% of all deaths for the 190D-9 doesn't really indicate a dominant aircraft in my book.
regards
palef
PS Geez what a rant - sorry
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Tour 30 (last time I flew F4F-4):
AKSWulfe has 12 kills and has been killed 2 times in the F4F-4.
The problem is not that I have problems dealing with late war monsters, my problem is that I HAVE to deal with them.
-SW
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tactics? sure... if everything cpomes together you can enjoy a few sorties in an early war plane if.... you are way above average in skill level and have a little luck and.....
To fly a late war plane in any situation is no problem.. you have the best possible chance and your opponent in the early war plane is at the disadvantage before the fight even starts.
no... I think we need a place for the early war planes to have a little parity. the late war guys have their parity allready.
lazs
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Few nights back I'm flying a tempest, i'm not that high bout 6k ish. I spot a lone LA7 on the deck twisting and turning with a squaddie. As I dive in i see the la7 kill my squaddie and start to run. I am catching him for a while, then he starts to get away. I think I'm risking 70 points just so la7's can engage in a low speed turn fight and then accelerate so fast that they can escape me??
He can out run me, out-turn me, he's smaller than me and a lot harder to hit. If the LA7 aint perked then I dont see why the tempest should, or for that matter the F4U4.
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Yes! or something to allow the early war planes a fleeting chance.
The early war planes are hopelessly outclassed in the MA with the current setup. There is no even balance or something to make them viable.
-SW
some early war planes are quite good, but require alot more patience. 109f is one of my favorites. Though it is pretty slow, I feel pretty comfortable engaging just about anything in it.
turbot has 66 kills and has been killed 21 times in the Bf 109F-4.
turbot has 1 kill and has been killed 0 times in the Bf 109F-4 against the Spitfire Mk XIV. :) (I didn't even ahve any cannon left - took forever but finally I downed him)
and back on topic sorta:
turbot has 4 kills and has been killed 0 times in the Bf 109F-4 against the La-7.
Heck and these just my silly numbers - plenty out there with alot better.
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Early war planes do quite well in the Combat Theatre. I learned more about ACM flying P-40s and Kis there than I did flying Spitfires and Mustangs in the MA.
If you want to perk a plane, perk the Mustang and Typhoon. Those things account for more airfield destruction than any other plane. You'd see a lot fewer suicide Tiffie runs, I'll bet. At least defenders have a chance to run down a heavy P-47, F6F, Corsair, or P-38, but the P-51 and Typhoon are unstoppable once they begin their attack runs.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
But that has nothing to do with the a certain plane causing one country having low numbers.
Ack-Ack
Until you have a balanced number on each team, I don't think you can gauge the effect of one plane type on the balance of the arena.
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Gremlin Quote:
He can out run me,
Incorrect, and it's been tested to prove that statement is wrong. The Tempest is faster than the La7 at all altitudes. At 50ft above sea-level though it's a pretty close race, the Tempest only has about 6mph of advantage. By only 6.5K in altitude the Tempest can cruise faster than the La7 can go with WEP.
Honestly, if you're bringing a Tempest to the fight then you can expect every La7 within icon distance, and every 190D9, 109G10, and P-51 to try to get you anyway. Just like all other perk planes.
-Soda
The Assassins.
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Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
Perk La-7, 109 G-10, P-51D, 190 D-9.
Agreed. Lightly perking these planes (3-5 perk points) would bring up the effectiveness of early to mid war planes. Shoulda been done a year ago.
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Originally posted by hblair
Agreed. Lightly perking these planes (3-5 perk points) would bring up the effectiveness of early to mid war planes. Shoulda been done a year ago.
Yes Sir, I'm all for it!
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Next time you're up in the MA same times as me, lets go to the DA. Would be fun to find out.
Ack-Ack
Sure. It will be fun for sure, no matter who turns out the winner. When do you usually fly?
I'll be out of town and off the air for the next two weeks. After that I'll be looking for you. :)
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Give me one example where the La7 or the N1K2 tip the game balance unfavorably?
Here's some stats to ponder from this past tour:
Bf 109E-4 has 16 Kills of N1K2
N1K2 has 60 Kills of Bf 109E-4
Spitfire Mk I has 43 Kills of La-7
La-7 has 147 Kills of Spitfire Mk I
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
All that really proves is that it's one of the favored rides in the arena. If you want a good indicator, look at some of the better pilot scores like Leviathn's. He's 40-7 against the La7 and 55-10 against the N1K2, all while flying the Spitfire V. So if an early war plane that is inferior to one of the 'uber' planes has such a kill record against them, then it only leads one to see that when it comes down to it, it is the pilot and not the plane. EVen I have a winning record over both the La7 and N1K2 and I fly the P-38L, another supposedly inferior plane to the two 'uber' planes.
You can't compare how skilled pilots do in their favorite rides against run-of-the-mill MA pilots. You'll always get the "pilot not the plane". You guys need to keep in mind the *average* online pilot. Your average AH pilot in a N1K2 is gonna eat up your average pilot in a Spit1.
Spitfire Mk I has 16 Kills of Bf 109G-10
Bf 109G-10 has 61 Kills of Spitfire Mk I
Later war planes have an obvious advantage and IMO should be lightly perked to make them less dominate. You'll still have good rides for free, just not great ones. Problem is though, everybody wants a free ride and it's probably too late in the game for HTC to perk planes people have been flying for free so long. People are afraid of change.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Sure. It will be fun for sure, no matter who turns out the winner. When do you usually fly?
I'll be out of town and off the air for the next two weeks. After that I'll be looking for you. :)
A well flown P38 would likely eat up an La-7 one on one. And Ack Ack's would be well flown. SOOoooo....
Perk the P38! (kiddin ack ack;)
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Originally posted by hblair
A well flown P38 would likely eat up an La-7 one on one. And Ack Ack's would be well flown. SOOoooo....
Perk the P38! (kiddin ack ack;)
hmmmm i'll have to fight ack-ack's 38 in my la7 one of these days!!
should i give him an alt advantage or something?
:cool:
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Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
Perk La-7, 109 G-10, P-51D, 190 D-9.
While on the surface I agree, there are some issues around where all the orphaned pilots would end up. Would it simply boost the numbers of Spits and N1K's even more? I don't know that a whole host of people would simply "down-grade" to a lesser model of the same aircraft (190D9-> 190A5, La7->La5).
Just an thought,
-Soda
The Assassins.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Until you have a balanced number on each team, I don't think you can gauge the effect of one plane type on the balance of the arena.
I'll say it one more time in the hope you'll finally grasp it but I'm not holding my breath.
Just because one side doesn't have the numbers doesn't mean a certain plane is causing the unbalance. Don't try to throw in the "I'm a Rook and my country is always out numbered!" whine in this thread because that's not what we're talking about.
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Originally posted by Shane
hmmmm i'll have to fight ack-ack's 38 in my la7 one of these days!!
should i give him an alt advantage or something?
:cool:
10,000ft advantage and you can't fire for the first five minutes of the fight.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Just because one side doesn't have the numbers doesn't mean a certain plane is causing the unbalance.
or...
Because one side has the numbers, a certain plane is causing the unbalance?
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I thought Perk System was introduced to balance plane usage, and it was totally unrelated to performance aspects of each plane. -Popeye
Is there a balance? Are there as many F4F's flying around as there are Spits and N1ks? If not, there isn't a balance. And being an early-war fan, I'm all for "balance."
:D
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
or...
Because one side has the numbers, a certain plane is causing the unbalance?
or...
You're still trying to throw in a completely different and irrelevant arguement to the table.
Whether or not a plane makes the game play unbalanced is totally and completely seperate from whether or not a particular country is out numbered.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
or...
You're still trying to throw in a completely different and irrelevant arguement to the table.
Whether or not a plane makes the game play unbalanced is totally and completely seperate from whether or not a particular country is out numbered.
ack-ack
In my opinion, numbers affect gameplay balance far more than aircraft types. It's more relevant than the P51/LA7/NIK2 whine of the week.
The perk system is flawed. We all know it's flawed. It's inconsistent and capricious... and it hasn't been changed since _insert version here_. Hell, we're still carrying around F4U-1C baggage because of the effect that it had on an entirely different strat system. IMHO, perking the LA7/P51/NIK2 won't fix anything. The entire perk system needs another look.
Still... Rook/Bishop/Knight all enjoy the same flawed system. Only difference is... Rooks are outnumbered 4-8:1.
Perking the LA7 or the Dora isn't going to change that little fact.
Besides... you're the one that brought up balance as a gameplay argument. Any discussion about balance must include force strength... or is it your aim to have an arena filled with fighters that have 1:1 K/D ratios while the rest remain perked. Is that your idea of balance?
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PERK THE GOOOOOON!!!!!!!!!!!!:D
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Originally posted by Animal
Dora dominates the LA7
Yes, because of pilot skill.
The D9 is good because many veteran pilots fly it, and noobs don't. It's a similar situation as the P47-D11.
What you're asking for is to perk the pilots. Heck why don't we perk "luck" while we're at it too?
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Um.
La-7 has 579 Kills of Fw 190D-9
Fw 190D-9 has 750 Kills of La-7
Let's compare that to the other perked planes:
Tempest has 57 Kills of Fw 190D-9
Fw 190D-9 has 21 Kills of Tempest
Ta 152H has 16 Kills of Fw 190D-9
Fw 190D-9 has 16 Kills of Ta 152H
Spitfire Mk XIV has 19 Kills of Fw 190D-9
Fw 190D-9 has 19 Kills of Spitfire Mk XIV
Me 262 has 63 Kills of Fw 190D-9
Fw 190D-9 has 13 Kills of Me 262
F4U-4 has 16 Kills of Fw 190D-9
Fw 190D-9 has 8 Kills of F4U-4
F4U-1C has 84 Kills of Fw 190D-9
Fw 190D-9 has 87 Kills of F4U-1C
Well now that's pretty interesting. It seems the Dora dominates the La-7, and except for the F4U-1C the Dora has a 1:1 or lesser K/D ratio against perked planes. If these two planes were perked, it's clear that the Dora would and should cost more than the La-7.
-- Todd/Leviathn
You're abusing statistics because you're not doing a proper analysis to find the cause of the data. The reason the D9 is able to kill perk planes easier is because it's flown at higher altitude and is able to dive on lower E perk planes.
Most perk planes are only vulnerable to higher E planes, thereofre the D9 shold be statistically good vs perk planes. La7s are normally found low, therefore La7s it wouldn't be expected that La7s would be statistically good vs perk planes.
Also, planes should be perked based on their impact on the MA, not based on their stats vs perk planes - those are the rarest of planes and should be the last ones cosidered in the perk rating.
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Originally posted by AtmkRstr
Also, planes should be perked based on their impact on the MA, not based on their stats vs perk planes
so, how does the LA7 impact the arena? looks like it's 4th in terms of total kills, and someone posted stats about it vs other planes in terms of k/d and stuff showing it to be middle of pack.
all kinds of people drive la7's... runners, cherrypickers, gangers...
and me.
just like other planes.
:)
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Originally posted by AtmkRstr
You're abusing statistics because you're not doing a proper analysis to find the cause of the data.
[/B]
Ah, but of course. I'm sure a proper analysis from you follows.
The reason the D9 is able to kill perk planes easier is because it's flown at higher altitude and is able to dive on lower E perk planes. Most perk planes are only vulnerable to higher E planes, thereofre the D9 shold be statistically good vs perk planes. La7s are normally found low, therefore La7s it wouldn't be expected that La7s would be statistically good vs perk planes.
[/B]
LOL Some analysis. Beyond conjecture, you also have absolutely nothing to back up this assertion. I've seen plenty of low Doras and plenty of high La-7s. I've seen tons of high P-51s, yet the P-51 has 2103 kills on the La-7 to 2649 deaths. I've also seen plenty of high and low perked planes. I doubt altitude has as much to do with it as things such as armament, ammo load, top speed at all alts, acceleration, roll rate, etc. The standard fare. Except for turning ability, the Dora is a dominant plane, pure and simple. I'd take it over the La-7 any day.
Also, planes should be perked based on their impact on the MA, not based on their stats vs perk planes - those are the rarest of planes and should be the last ones cosidered in the perk rating.
I wasn't listing those stats to defend perking the 190D9. I was doing so to show how successfully it has performed against the ostensibly "superior" La-7 and the various perked planes. To even insinuate that the Dora or La-7 require perking is silly IMO.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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we need an area within the arena for early war planes... It wouldn't be a bad idea to have a mid war area also.. Let the late war monsters eat each other up. I bet it takes the fun outta late war planes tho when they have only other late war planes to fight.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I bet it takes the fun outta late war planes tho when they have only other late war planes to fight.
lazs
actually last weeks CT setup was pretty fun, you got to see spit14's, temps and f4u-4's flying aggressively (well a few anyway, and me when i was in them) vs la7's and yaks.... it was quite fun and hopefully a lesson to some about just how well them "monsters" can play down in the dirt.
la7 held it's own for the most part, as did the yaks... it boiled down mostly to pilot skill (when it wasn't a mini-ma-style-3+/cherrypicker-fest).
i have this film of a beautiful lead shot with a yakt 37mm shot from 680yds out, coming off a reversal and just nailing an off-angled extending temp with 2 rds.... boom!!
lol.
from that setup, i've come to the reinforced conclusion that the spit14 is overpriced in MA - i'd say about 20-30 perkies would be about right.
you really need to play in CT more, if there's more than 6-8 people on, you find exactly the kind of action you claim to be desiring in the MA, often with early war stuff. it's furball city, mostly...
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I fly a plane based on what I want to accomplish for that flight. I imagine that is what the majority of pilots do in the MA. My plane of choice has been the La-7 this month due to the numbers of Bish and Knit. I've been on the defensive quite a bit, why would I up an early plane to take on 2-5 enemies at once? If the numbers are a little closer I'll jump in the La-5, jabo I'll be in an Fm2 or F4u-1D.
If you want to see a more variety in the main the theatre has to change a bit as I hear rumoured. Larger Towns, more ground targets ect. Pizza map I don't tend to see as many of the dominating fighters. I'll up an early model and go into a not so furballish fight. I see more P-40s and Hurricanes on the Pizza map than in the others....
That's my thoughts.
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Originally posted by lazs2
I bet it takes the fun outta late war planes tho when they have only other late war planes to fight.
lazs
Was curious if there was any validity to this, so looked at my figures. I just don't see numbers for this, early war planes accounted for 14 out of 394 kills I had last tour (3.6%).
3 A6M2
4 109F4
1 110C-4b
1 202
2 Hurricane Mk1
3 FM2
66 of my kills were in the 109f4, but I for sure flew also my share of late war monsters. 77 kills in F4U1d and 61 kills in Ta152 accounting for the biggest share of them.
Though the planes I killed most were 43 P51-D, 27 Spit IX, 26 NiK2, and 24 La7's I still had fun. I don't think you are right about this.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
In my opinion, numbers affect gameplay balance far more than aircraft types. It's more relevant than the P51/LA7/NIK2 whine of the week.
The perk system is flawed. We all know it's flawed. It's inconsistent and capricious... and it hasn't been changed since _insert version here_. Hell, we're still carrying around F4U-1C baggage because of the effect that it had on an entirely different strat system. IMHO, perking the LA7/P51/NIK2 won't fix anything. The entire perk system needs another look.
Still... Rook/Bishop/Knight all enjoy the same flawed system. Only difference is... Rooks are outnumbered 4-8:1.
Perking the LA7 or the Dora isn't going to change that little fact.
Besides... you're the one that brought up balance as a gameplay argument. Any discussion about balance must include force strength... or is it your aim to have an arena filled with fighters that have 1:1 K/D ratios while the rest remain perked. Is that your idea of balance?
You really seem to like to bring irrelevant arguements to the table.
I never advocated perking these so-called 'uber' planes, they don't need it as they don't effect game balance in the arena. And when talking about planes causing an unbalance, it's not necessary to add being outnumbered as part of the arguement since they are totally and completely different arguements. If a plane causes a gameplay to be unbalanced, it has nothing to do with being out numbered, that's something you seem to fail to grasp. I don't know if it's a language barrier that keeps you from understanding, or maybe I just have to type slower for you to grasp it.
And to repeat one more time, the only plane I think that should be perked is the Me262, as that's the only plane that is truely capable of effecting game balance.
Ack-Ack
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One more time...
Plane types do not cause unbalanced gameplay.
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Except for turning ability, the Dora is a dominant plane, pure and simple. I'd take it over the La-7 any day.
Lev... you are joking right? A mediocre pilot in an la-7 will kick the crap out of a good pilot in a Dora, unless all the Dora does is BnZZzz. Even then it would only take the La-7 maybe 2 or 3 passes to equalize E states.
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Leviathn - the D9 is slower and a worse climber up to about 7.5k. The three nose mounted cannon on the La-7 don't hurt either. I honestly don't remember seeing you fight it out above 5k, so I can't see how the D9 becomes the obvious choice "any day". The D9 is one of the best planes available - but there's no need to exaggerate the fact. The La-7 is much often a better choice.
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Perk the Pony and you MAY stop SOME of the suicide jabos but at the cost of seeing more of them running than now.
Perk the La7 and you will see even more La7 runners.
Perk the Dora and you'll see them higher and even more timid in their BmZ tactics.
SOME pilots will NOT change their 'style' of fighting because of the perk price...most will IMO.
I can't understand why some people want to have more runners, ack hiders and even more timid BnZers in the MA.
Perking bombs MAY be the way to reduce the suicide Jabo's but perking these planes for any other reason would quite possibly create even more boring MA fights.
My personal solution is to kill any P51's, N1K2's, La7's, Typhoon's or 190's first if conditions are right.
YMMV as always.
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Perked loadouts makes sense to me, gunsets included. For example: I am given to understand that the LA7 with the 3 cannons was not a very often flown verison in the war, that a 2 cannon version was much more common.
edit: I still would like to see factored in a score factor that accounts for pilot experience. That is to say something along the lines of a lower ranked pilot killing a higher ranked pilot awards more score/perks for the kill.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
One more time...
Plane types do not cause unbalanced gameplay.
The Me262 can. Imagine what would happen if the numbers that fly the La7 decided to fly the Me262 if it was unperked, that would cause the game play to be unbalanced. The Me262 is the only current plane in the plane set that is capable of doing it, that's why it's perked and IMO, the only one that should be perked.
At least you seem to finally start to get it.
Ack-Ack
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Everything is good....your heart beats, you're walkin around and you're free to whine about things that don't matter in the least.
In additiion, perking planes only causes the perkee to fly like an uptight yuppie in his first luxury sedan.
As to player balance in the MA.....give it up.
It will always be in flux and it will always be what it is....the last thing we need, is for Dale to begin some social experiment in a video game. Just get over it or if you cannot, change countries or solicit change amoungst your buds in other countries or call mom....just stop whinin about it. It makes ya look kinda silly after the first time you mention it.
Now, doesn't everyone feel better?
Logon and find a purpose...this little virtual world is all yours to do with as you please...now how cool is that?
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Unbalanced how?
Maybe your command of the english language isn't up to it.
Assuming that all sides are equal, if everyone is capable of flying the same aircraft, how is this unbalanced if the Me262 (or any other aircraft) are one of the choices of aircraft?
You keep saying the same thing... certain aircraft types cause unbalanced gameplay.
What does that mean?
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Unbalanced how?
Assuming that all sides are equal, if everyone is capable of flying the same aircraft, how is this unbalanced if the Me262 (or any other aircraft) are one of the choices of aircraft?
If the Me262 was free, then the majority would fly it, causing the rest to fly it to have any chance of success. The same is not true with the La7 or any of the other so-called 'uber' planes. As you pointed out, a great deal of the players fly the La7 and N1K2 but yet those that don't fly these planes still remain competitive in the MA.
You keep saying the same thing... certain aircraft types cause unbalanced gameplay.
What does that mean?
Certain planes, like the Me262 can. That's why it's perked. Planes in AH aren't perked because of their availability during the war or how many were in the war but rather the planes effect on the game balance.
Ack-Ack
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Depends on where you draw the line at I suppose Ack-Ack.
Spitfire IX and N1K2 make quite a few planes worthless. 109G2,G6,F4,E4,c202 & 205,P40E and B,190A5 and A8,F4F & FM2,Spitfire I, Hurricane I, A6M2 & a6m5 (imo), 110C4 (and 110G2 imo), all the P-47s, arguably the P-38.
Do some of them see use? Of course they do. Will they ever be popular? Of course not. Why? Because the performance of the planes offer no advantage over the Spit IX and N1K2, which is the 'baseline' performance for our MA. The Spit IX and N1K2 dominate all of the planes in the list above, so for your average Ma 'pilot' there is no point in picking those planes when if you want good turning you can fly the Spit and N1K, which offer other important advantages also.
For example, lets compare the 190A5 to the N1K2.
Speed: From 0-10k, the 190A5 has a *very* slight edge in level speed.
Acceleration: N1K2, hands down.
Turning: N1K2, hands down.
Climbrate: N1K2, hands down.
Firepower: N1K2, hands down.
Roll Rate: 190A5.
So... what reason would anyone have for flying the 190A5? The only reason is because they like the plane for some reason that has nothing to do with performance. Well, and they are willing to accept the fact that the Top 5 planes will be able to dominate them in a 1v1 fight.
We could also compare say the Spit IX to the 109F. Spit V is actually a 'historical' matchup", but our MA is just that, an MA.
So-
Top speed: 0-10k, similar, with the Spitfire gaining an edge the higher you go. Above 10k, the Spit IX hands down.
Climb rate: Spit IX, hands down.
Acceleration: Spit IX, hands down.
Turning: Spit IX, hands down.
Roll rate: Spit IX.
Firepower: Spit IX, hands down.
Its quite clear, to me anyway, why the popular planes are popular. The Spit and N1K because they can turn and have heavy firepower, and the P-51D and La7 because you can run away from and or BnZzzzz Spits and N1Ks (plus any of the above planes in the first paragraph). The Spits and the N1K2 are popular because they ARE the best 'fighting' planes available in the MA. The P-51D and the La7 are popular because they are the best runners in the MA.
So, in essense, a Spit IX may as well be a 262 to a 109E4 or F4. The only difference is it dominates the 109 totally, instead of just being much faster.
I think the Me262 would undoubtedly be the most popular plane in the arena if it were unperked. It would make the game not very fun at all for the majority of players. The only difference between the situation we have now is that a minority are unhappy with our 'baseline' instead of a majority.
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Okay... Certain aircraft can affect the baseline capability required to survive in the MA.
I think that's what akak is trying to say.
Thanks Urchin.
Now... would the Me262 be the most popular? Hmmm... hard to gauge. I'm sure the use would spike massively if it were not perked, but after the initial scramble to fight with it, I think many would realize it's limitations and go back to flying whatever it is they enjoy.
IIRC in WarBirds, towards the end of the RPS cycle when jets became available, there were a lot around, but they weren't the most popular.
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As to player balance in the MA.....give it up.
It will always be in flux and it will always be what it is....the last thing we need, is for Dale to begin some social experiment in a video game. Just get over it or if you cannot, change countries or solicit change amoungst your buds in other countries or call mom....just stop whinin about it. It makes ya look kinda silly after the first time you mention it.
It is not on the flux for a year. This November the Rooks meet their first anniversary as a local drum getting banged on by everyone else.
How long do we wait? A year more?
Maybe it's time to reconsider that the people in trouble should just go help themselves instead of whine. Ever consider actually listening to the whines, admitting there's a problem and taking steps to make it a more fun game for everybody actually can be an alternative?
Change countries? We're not the ones who break the balance. Why should it be us who change countries? I thought the "stop being an arse and try to make things better" concept was supposed to be applied to people who make things worse, not the ones who suffer from it.
But then again, when you get to rape every cool looking girl in town you aren't exactly to keen on morality or righteousness. That's why there are police.
Hey, if the community proves that they are incapable of keeping things in order nicely and voluntarily, the "social experiment" moves from the bottom of the list to the top. Because there are people who suffer, just the tards causing the suffering not realizing it.
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Originally posted by stegor
Agree: whiners.
Agreed, Dora is not really that hard to shoot down, just learn some tactics