Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Fancy on October 29, 2002, 04:09:32 PM
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... but you know you won't catch him. He'll proably run till about 2.5 out, Immelman and merge, thus turning your advantageous spot on his six to an equal (AT BEST) 12 on 12 merge. I always find myself falling into this pattern and I know there's got to be a better way. I usually fly 190 variants so I chase for a little while, but there are a good number of planes that can pull away from me.
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I'm new myself but i'll try to answer with what i've learned so far.
While the nme is in front of you and going away you're o.k. so stay in that position even if they're faster. The exception to this is planes that have guns sticking out the back. Only follow these untill they start shooting at you then break off and find another nme.
If the nme stops running and pulls a fancy maneuver like the one you described try your best at an HO by aiming directly at the bog and start blazing guns from about 2.0 out and don't let off until he either goes by or your guns stop making noises. Hopefully you'll get a lucky shot and place a round right between his glassballs.
If you miss on the HO, auger and then re-up from a safe place with lots of green dots around.
This strategy has been working well for me and I rarely get shot down following these simple steps.
BOL
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when a faster bogie starts to extend , you can reverse right now and get sepration OR if you want to pursue go into a shallow climb , the bogie will be running flat or even diving to get sepration, if the bogie keeps on going you have got some alt back , but if he reverses you will have alt and/or speed on him.
44MAG
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Originally posted by Mooja
If the nme stops running and pulls a fancy maneuver like the one you described try your best at an HO by aiming directly at the bog and start blazing guns from about 2.0 out and don't let off until he either goes by or your guns stop making noises. Hopefully you'll get a lucky shot and place a round right between his glassballs.
You're new so I'm going to help YOU out. The reason I even brought this up in the first place is that I was looking for a solution that didn't involve the HO. HO's are generally a lose-lose proposition. As is spraying ammo in a general direction. The idea here is to survive to kill again. Almost all HOs that are executed fully lead to the crippling of both planes. If achieveing a net gain of zero is your goal, then the HO is for you. When forced into the HO, here is what I do: fire a salvo at about 1.3, then break. I would fly away from every HO you and I ever had and you would be pulling the ripcord. Now look at the answer 44MAG gave (thank you, by the way), and see that he survives, avoids fire, and tries to amneuver himself into an advantageous position.
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O.k. but i'm just telling you that you can't argue with success. I very rarely get shot down.
;)
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Fancy,
I'd try spitting that hook out before Mooja gets you all the way back to the boat. :)
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Originally posted by Mooja
I'm new myself but i'll try to answer with what i've learned so far.
While the nme is in front of you and going away you're o.k. so stay in that position even if they're faster. The exception to this is planes that have guns sticking out the back. Only follow these untill they start shooting at you then break off and find another nme.
If the nme stops running and pulls a fancy maneuver like the one you described try your best at an HO by aiming directly at the bog and start blazing guns from about 2.0 out and don't let off until he either goes by or your guns stop making noises. Hopefully you'll get a lucky shot and place a round right between his glassballs.
If you miss on the HO, auger and then re-up from a safe place with lots of green dots around.
This strategy has been working well for me and I rarely get shot down following these simple steps.
BOL
Not a good tactic, since manuevering for the HO shot will most likely get you killed, and at best blow any advantage you hope to get in the merge.
If you see the enemy reverse and re-enter the merge, standard merge tactics apply.
ack-ack
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Hey HFMudd looks like he landed 2 ;)
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Ack, I know what i'm talking about. I've been playing now for over three weeks. The HO is your best chance of success. If the nme gets by you on the HO they'll immediately be directly behind you with guns blazing. I've seen it happen time after time. Believe me. If you don't shoot on the HO you won't get another chance. I've found most guys won't even shoot back on an HO so you get free shots with no risk. If he does shoot back then at least you're on level ground with a 50-50 chance of winning. I'll take a 1 to 1 kill ratio any day.
As for kills don't be too worried about those. Those are easy to get. When I first started I was on the end of the runway trying to start the engine and the next thing I knew something blew up beside me and a message popped up on my screen that said I got a kill on somebody. Believe me it's much easier to get kills than it is to keep the nme in front of you.
As for other strategies, take 44's example where you climb into them. Now the bogs just gonna turn around and then he's moving fast and you're moving slow (climbing). Who do you think is gonna be the easiest target to hit? The slow one is. Plus, when you're climbing it's harder to aim on the HO. 44's other strategy was to turn around on the bog and I'll just say that is about the worst thing you can do. When you turn around now the bogs behind you and in a few seconds his guns will be blazing and you'll be a puff of smoke. This strategy may work if you're in a plane with guns sticking out the back end cause they're very dangerous. A plane that can shoot in two directions at the same time will always win over a plane that can only shoot in one. It's just plain logic.
When you get more advanced and make it up to about 25K feet you'll start to see some very dangerous planes. I saw three huge white ones up there once that had guns sticking out in every direction. Be careful though cause you can't see the guns till you get very close. Those three took me by surprise that time and shot me down before I got a chance to auger.
In a normal, uni-directional shooting plane your main focus should be to always keep the nme in front of you. As soon as you notice an nme is behind you should nose down and auger as that way you make the hardest possible target to hit plus they may follow you into the ground. If possible always auger when the nme is more than about 2.0 out cause then no one gets your points. If you watch your plane when you turn your wings flare out in the direction of the nme and you just make a bigger target. I can tell you from experience 9.9 times out of ten if you try to turn around the nme will just shoot you down anyway. So you can see the HO's are your best shot and after that it's pointless to do anything but auger.
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grasshopper , you understood nothing i said.
44MAG
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If you miss on the HO, auger and then re-up from a safe place with lots of green dots around.
Those three took me by surprise that time and shot me down before I got a chance to auger.
If possible always auger when the nme is more than about 2.0 out cause then no one gets your points.
So you can see the HO's are your best shot and after that it's pointless to do anything but auger.
Goshhhh:eek: :eek: :eek:
Please someone tell me this is a TROLL. If it is not , its the most shocking thing I've read by far:(
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ROTFLMAO! Mooja, cracked me up......some very astute observations to say the least.
Blue
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Mooja,
Be aware, you have been flying his game for 3 weeks.... Even if you have been flying this game solid for 3 weeks it does not compare to the experience that some flyers have in this game... A whole lota folks have been flying this game since it's release almost 3 years ago! Even more have been flying realistic sims like this for anything up to 14 years. There is a fair bit of experience there.
I guess it's all down to how you want to play the game. If you are happy with being shot down or damaged in HO's then that is fine but I would say that 90% of people who fly this game like to live after there engagements. HO's ARE and always will be a very dangerious, risky and unnessisary form of manouver.
The skilled pilot will always find a way out of an HO and kill an enemy at the minimum risk to themselfs and there aircraft.
In my opinion, if you have a 1-1 kill ratio then you effectivly have nothing. Because everytime you shot somebody down you got shot down yourself. Efectivly it's useless.
Look through these boards, read what people have to say and maybe you will learn something. Heck post me a mail and I am happy to do a few sessions with you and show ya that there is more to flying than HO's
Fly Safe.
Betown (betown@ecomm-net.co.uk)
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As soon as the faster plane starts to extend out away from you, you can either (a) chase him but go into a climb that will keep your speed around 200-250 so that when he reverses you'll have some maneuvering speed and some altitude to work with or (b) reverse your direction and head for a friendly plane or airfield.
The idea is that the faster plane will determine when the attack will occur, but you can determine how much speed you'll have when you engage. Typically, its LA-7s, Typhoons, P-47s, 190s, and Mustangs that will do the extending, and unless the bandit is doing a vertical maneuver to dance on your head, the next attack will be from the front quarter, such as a head-on.
There are a couple of times when an HO will be to your advantage (a) when you have bigger guns than him and/or (b) when you have nose-mounted guns and he doesn't. Nose-mounted or cowl guns will allow you to begin landing hits sooner than wing-mounted guns due to the convergence. P-38s and Me110s can lay down some serious firepower in a very narrow cone, so they'll usually win most HOs (assuming they don't collide with the debris of their kill). The FW190A8 will win most HOs, except against P-38s, 110s, and the P-47 (eight .50s can cover a lot of ground, and the rate of fire is much better than the 190s). I've detonated Hellcats with a 190a8 head-on attack. Never underestimate the firepower of four 20mm and cowl-mounted 13mm.
If you find yourself on the short-end of an HO, such as if you're flying a Spitfire V and the enemy is in a 190, then you can do a barrell roll and spoil his shot. He'll blow past and you can either try to get a quick reversal on him (depending on the relative rate of closure) or you can extend out in the opposite direction from him and get your speed back up.
This only works if you're a Knight. If you try this against a Knight, your wings will fall off, your computer will lock up, your bank account number will be broadcast across the Internet, and you'll be added to the email listings for sheep porn sites.
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Fancy's method for dealing with HO's works best most of the time.
The person who commits to the HO had better get the kill, because the other is leading the turn, and well into it by the time they pass.
All other things being equal, the person leading the turn will kill the HOer most of the time.
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I see I arrived just in time to help the poor struggling little fishies with those big nasty hooks in their mouths....
Of course he's joking. Spraying from 2.0 out....augering if the HO fails....upping where lots of friendlies are....seeing "3 big white planes with guns sticking out all over"....mmmm....that worm looks so good.....wonder what that shiny metal thing is? ;)
When chasing a plane on the deck that is faster than me, I start into a shallow climb while pursuing. I will also break a little to either side so I'm not directly on the bogie's 6. I usually like to keep them between my 10 and 2. This ultimately gives you the energy advantage should your target decide to turn and engage. By maneuvering out of the 12-6 line, you also set yourself up to avoid the HO, and gain angles on your quarry sooner.
Once I see my target start to execute his turn back into me, I go nose-level and hit WEP to gain as much speed as I can coming back into him. I will adjust my course slightly depending on which way he turns. For example, if he's turning to the left, I'll adjust my course so that I am headed further to his right. This has two advantages. The first is that he will waste more energy turning to try to get a solution on you. The second is that he thinks he's going to acquire a solution on you because you're now showing him your 9 or 3, so he'll do a lot of energy burning moves to get behind you.
While he's wasting his energy to try and maneuver for the kill, you're gaining yours. When it is time to engage, you've now got the energy advantage and plenty of options.
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Fancy...a couple of points to consider.
1) if the plane you are chasing is able to extend from you then your relative energy state is worsening...so don't chase.
2) there is no such thing as an "equal merge" all kinds of variables and options...99.9% of the time one side comes out a bit better off.
3) plane type matters here...if your in a A5 you'vr got better handling than the A8...obviously your not in a D9 if stuff is running from you.
My 2 cents on best tactic is as follows...as con extends past 2.0 out break gently to one side by 30 dergrees or so in a gentle climb (use wep for a min or so). You want to maximize alt while allowing seperation. If the con goes high on a reverse you have to options:
1) continue turn and wep and dive for deck toward some good guys.
2) level out (keep wep on) watch his turn (1 timing, 2 may help you judge skill level). As he tops out turn gently toward him and dive a bit. You dont want to get all the way to deck or get way under but you want to be the low guy on re-merge. As you close back inside 2.5 watch his tactics...a real ace won't accept your merge...he'll break off high. Otherwise you've set up a classic neg E merge. The cone will be fighting superior E while your merging up hill storing what you have...you can extend or initiate a 3rd merge.
3) If the con goes high on you he's doing 1 of two things...a full extension or an energy opener. In 1st he'll take his E up and B&Z you...not really an immediate threat. 2nd one he'll be off the gas and using a "rudder slap" to bleed E and get an inverted look for you...as you break he'll use rudder to role in the vertical and come screaming back in quick. Thats where you'd need a bit of room below. As he breaks up role away 30-45 degrees and watch...if he goes high your back to original position...just more vertical extension instead of horizontal. If he's coming hard you've got a tougher situation and a better pilot (most likely)...you'll need to break back into his attack to deny the angle and then decide to run and juke or attempt to draw him into a rolling vertical scissors (my choice)....anyone just 1 guys thoughts.
Just remember even though the cons "running" he's got the better E state. He also has you beaten in your mind the moment he reverses into you...tough combo to beat.
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Wow, some great tactics here guys, thanks a lot.
Hey Mooja:
This user is on your ignore list. To view this post click [here].
Oh yes, and you're not funny, you're a:
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some solid advices mentioned here.
my tactic is the exact opposite -
my p-47 wont catch any of the 1944-5 fighters and will barely run away from a spit9 without diving. so when they extend from me, I turn my 6 and invite them to suddle up :)
9 out of 10 players will start drooling so bad to see a 200mph p-47 infront of them, that they'll drool all over the windshield and miss the shot, try to saddle-up while being too fast, get sucked into a stallfight and end up dead.
Tacticaly, it's a bad option.
Gamicly, it's the fun option.
running after some guy who dont want to fight unless he has the advatage is boring (but if he likes spending his time running away, I won't call him names). give the guy his advantage and try to slap him with it - much much more fun and rewarding.
my 0.02$
Bozon
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OH MY GOD!
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I think a well flown slow jug is an awful tough nut to crack. It's a bear to kill and will actually handle very nicely in a scissors fight. If you misplay your hand and fail to deny the overshoot you'll be a k-mart special in the used parts isle. If you get to conservative and happen to misjudge the E state of the jug he can tail slide you with those 8x.50's also. Of course the worst thing is you don't know if your dealing with Drex, Frenchy etc...so your already a bit twitchy:)
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Originally posted by humble
I think a well flown slow jug is an awful tough nut to crack. It's a bear to kill and will actually handle very nicely in a scissors fight. If you misplay your hand and fail to deny the overshoot you'll be a k-mart special in the used parts isle. If you get to conservative and happen to misjudge the E state of the jug he can tail slide you with those 8x.50's also. Of course the worst thing is you don't know if your dealing with Drex, Frenchy etc...so your already a bit twitchy:)
shhhhh...;)
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That's kind of harsh to a guy who's been here for only three weeks. Not everybody instantly grasps what we are aiming at here Fancy et. all, I probably would have thought the same in the given situation as Mooja, and so would everyone, if he was here for only three weeks. No need to antagonize a seemingly blumbering answer :D, because through such mistakes people learn. Everybody was a blumb once.
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Mooja, there are few things to consider as a whole:
a) The first and largest objective for a fighter pilot is to shoot the enemy down.
b) but, as a whole, the larger purpose behind shooting the enemy down is to survive. That's why tactics are developed. Pyrhic victories are worthless.
c) Efficient combat tactics are there to help people win AND survive[/I], not to just win. That is the ultimate premise between all tactical considerations. Therefore, any move that has a good chance to jeopardize your survival cannot be defined as a tactic. It's more of a gung-ho suicidal move. Even with considerable advantage in firepower many good pilots choose not to go for a Head-on, because not only they want victory, but they also want to survive and cherish the victory.
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Not only the HO tactic you suggest is very inefficient, but it is also dangerous for yourself - because it is so predictable. To say the truth, when I see a bogey chasing either my shallow climb-out or extension when I'm clearly faster, it is almost always noticeable that the guys a "newbie".
Because the faster plane has a lot more than just one "fancy move" up his sleeve, turning the tables on such a wild attempt is what every experienced pilot would instantly recognize as "rope-a-dope".
The faster guy pulls forward, does the "fancy maneuver". You aim up to him. Is that all? What would happen if the enemy goes into a classic double-Immelmann? There are so many ways to so easily counter what you have suggested that the chances are, the HO attempt you described will rarely even achieve mutual knock-outs.
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My suggestion is this - you should start rethinking this "agenda" you have here:
In a normal, uni-directional shooting plane your main focus should be to always keep the nme in front of you ... *blah blah crap crap* ... I can tell you from experience 9.9 times out of ten if you try to turn around the nme will just shoot you down anyway. So you can see the HO's are your best shot and after that it's pointless to do anything but auger.
What you have stated applies only to planes with equal E-status or very simular characteristics. Also, what you have stated is a classic "1 vs 1", "dog-fighting" scenario familiar to WWI style of air combat.
If I may remind you, that sort of thinking died out in the first year of WWII.
ps) To be more precise, that sort of thinking died out even before WWI ended. There's a good reason Baron von Richtofen was able to achieve 80+ kills and honored as a legend - because his enemies thought like you did, Mooja, and Richtofen thought exactly the opposite.
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Originally posted by Mooja
Ack, I know what i'm talking about. I've been playing now for over three weeks. The HO is your best chance of success. If the nme gets by you on the HO they'll immediately be directly behind you with guns blazing. I've seen it happen time after time. Believe me. If you don't shoot on the HO you won't get another chance. I've found most guys won't even shoot back on an HO so you get free shots with no risk. If he does shoot back then at least you're on level ground with a 50-50 chance of winning. I'll take a 1 to 1 kill ratio any day.
As for kills don't be too worried about those. Those are easy to get. When I first started I was on the end of the runway trying to start the engine and the next thing I knew something blew up beside me and a message popped up on my screen that said I got a kill on somebody. Believe me it's much easier to get kills than it is to keep the nme in front of you.
As for other strategies, take 44's example where you climb into them. Now the bogs just gonna turn around and then he's moving fast and you're moving slow (climbing). Who do you think is gonna be the easiest target to hit? The slow one is. Plus, when you're climbing it's harder to aim on the HO. 44's other strategy was to turn around on the bog and I'll just say that is about the worst thing you can do. When you turn around now the bogs behind you and in a few seconds his guns will be blazing and you'll be a puff of smoke. This strategy may work if you're in a plane with guns sticking out the back end cause they're very dangerous. A plane that can shoot in two directions at the same time will always win over a plane that can only shoot in one. It's just plain logic.
When you get more advanced and make it up to about 25K feet you'll start to see some very dangerous planes. I saw three huge white ones up there once that had guns sticking out in every direction. Be careful though cause you can't see the guns till you get very close. Those three took me by surprise that time and shot me down before I got a chance to auger.
In a normal, uni-directional shooting plane your main focus should be to always keep the nme in front of you. As soon as you notice an nme is behind you should nose down and auger as that way you make the hardest possible target to hit plus they may follow you into the ground. If possible always auger when the nme is more than about 2.0 out cause then no one gets your points. If you watch your plane when you turn your wings flare out in the direction of the nme and you just make a bigger target. I can tell you from experience 9.9 times out of ten if you try to turn around the nme will just shoot you down anyway. So you can see the HO's are your best shot and after that it's pointless to do anything but auger.
Hehe.... he's brilliant! More more!!!! I fell outta my seat! Mooj..your awesome. Does anybody else here sense some humor....? :)
xBAT
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Gotta agree with you xbat. Mooj is a genious!
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Is it that Mooj is a genious or the responders aren't ? I have seen some well disguised hooks, but I thought that this one had a neon sign all over it.
Those that took the hook, line, and sinker, in all fairness, have given some real good information, but you still can't help but piss your pants laughing.
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Those three took me by surprise that time and shot me down before I got a chance to auger.
I think this is my favorite bit... May have to add it to my sig.
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Mooja forgets to tell the l33+ s3kr3+z of HOing.
1) Always ensure you are climbing into the HO
2) Always ensure your HO target is diving
3) Always go in guns blazing with nose directed right to the center of target
4) If target doesn't explode be absolutely sure you collide with it. This saves you the auger time ...
Given 1) and 2) the collision is paramount! This means the enemy will have to bail before you due to the fact he/she is already diving and thus approaching the ground faster than you are!
Happy HOing! ... and remember to tip your chosen HO
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You need to seperate out the "hookies" from those trying to answer Fancy's original post...obviously mooj trolled with dynamite instead of as hook and sinker:eek:
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Mooja sounds like Father Guido Sarducci of Saturday Night Live describing ACM.
Drftr
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I rather hear Gilda Radner's "Emily Litella" character... "What's all this I hear about Shooting HO's?"
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{Of course he's joking. Spraying from 2.0 out....augering if the HO fails....upping where lots of friendlies are....seeing "3 big white planes with guns sticking out all over} :eek:
heheh and all this thime I just thought he was a Knit. ;)
Fancy, back to your original post. The "runner" is extending and doing the right thing if he had an E deficit. If I have my head screwed on right, which isn't as often as I like, as soon as he starts pulling away I break off the fight. Then just keep an eye on him in case he revs.
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If this had a hook in it all the better. I have chosen the HO at times, NO MORE!!!! The hook allowed for some informative answeres.
Renrael, 332nd Flying Mongrels
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quote
"I saw three huge white ones up there once that had guns sticking out in every direction." mooja the great
I'm still laughing
JBA
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quote
"When you get more advanced and make it up to about 25K feet you'll start to see some very dangerous planes. " mooja the great
guess he/she never flew a niki or spit etc.
quote
"Be careful though cause you can't see the guns till you get very close. " mooja the great
Stop my sides hurt from laughing
JBA
Pricless, keep them coming mooja
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I feel it's fruitless to post more as I see that i've been re-classified to the ignore list. :(