Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Goner on October 30, 2002, 02:52:24 AM
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hi,
just re-opened my account and went vehicle-busting (i just do not have what it takes to be a fighter pilot) ... or so i thought :-\
even an M-3 is hard to kill ; the guys in the back leaning out and taking pot-shots with their pistols kill you in 2 secs. flat.
Goner - disgusted ...
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In it's defense:
The Il-2 is the only plane of it's size that I have sean shoulder hits from an osty and keep on trucking.
The tail was notioursly week, hiastoricaly.
The armor model porckage is exceaded curently only by net issues, lag, packet loss.
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Originally posted by brady
The Il-2 is the only plane of it's size that I have sean shoulder hits from an osty and keep on trucking.
well, i'll try to use it's shoulders more ... ;-) anything i attacked yesterday, M3's, Flaks, tanks got the better of me ...
The armor model porckage is exceaded curently only by net issues, lag, packet loss.
my connection was surprisingly good - maybe i wasn't ;-)
Goner
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You can hit them with your cannons from about 600-700 out
m3s and m16s usually pop with 1 hit
gotta hit lvts more same with panzers
flaks use your rockets and bombs on him
Come in at a steep angle from the rear or side and shoot
I usually laugh at their MG fire.
Use rockets at about 1.4 out will usually only take 2 for a flak or tank
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It is.
It's apparent weakness is caused by the binary damage model.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67502
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I've been having lots of fun in the IL2 lately. It seems to be tough whenever i fly it, i'm sure i've taken 37mm hits and flown on with no damage. With exception of the ostie, all gv's are easy prey for the IL2- the 23mm cannon rips them apart. Panzers are a little tougher but aslong as you attack from the rear you'll pop them with 1 or 2 passes with your cannon.
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it was a well armored plane, but not a flying tank.
the thickest part of the armor was 12mm and only the cockpit & engine were armor protected
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It's also worth noting that the il2 was a tank killer.
In AH, "GV killers" are up against nothing but AA vehicles, on top of that they're up against 95% ostwinds, which will 1-hit-kill the il2 easily. (The il2 will only survive if a non-critical part is hit, like a control surface.)
Really it's not a problem with the IL2, the design of ground vehicles really kills it. Still, the il2 CAN easily pop any GV in a pass or two, or kill an ostwinds gun with one pass(Assuming he doesnt hit you, thats the trick)
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Christ Innominate.... I sure hope you are never a mechanic... lets see here, ahh, just a control surface, we don't need that....
LOL
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Christ Innominate.... I sure hope you are never a mechanic... lets see here, ahh, just a control surface, we don't need that....
LOL
Bah.
Wings are overrated, control surfaces, doubly so.
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Certainly against half tracks the il2 rules. the 23mm can kill them at 1k plus. and a salvo of rockest at farther.
Agianst ostis the la7 works better. It has the speed to keep itself hard to hit which the il2 doesnt.
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Agreed, the Il-2 is very good against most things except the Ostie. While it can actually take a 37mm Ostie hit and sometimes survive, the fact is 75% of all GV's are Osties and the Il-2 is so slow that they punish you at great range. The 23mm cannons are not all that effective against armour either, it's a hit and miss thing and at D800, about max range for landing reasonable cannon hits, the Ostwind has been blasting away for D2.0 already.
The Il-2 would be a blast if not for the Ostie. I sometimes even use it attacking PT boats. Against Osties, you are better to go with something else, like the La7 or P-47 where you can pour more hits on and hope to knock out the Ostie gun.
-Soda
The Assassins.
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Originally posted by Soda
Against Osties, you are better to go with something else, like the La7 or P-47 where you can pour more hits on and hope to knock out the Ostie gun.
I'd have to argue this..
For killing osties with guns only, nothing comes close to the il2. Those 23mm cannons seem to go right through that armor. Even a few of those cannon rounds hitting will at least disable the osties gun. ONce the gun is dead, a solid pass from the rear will pop them without much trouble, or you can wait for them to just exit...
The trick is getting point blank shots on distracted osties, and coming in for a gun pass during a turn. (i.e. make a hard turn untill you're right on top of the ostie, then let him have it, so he can't line up when you're 1.5k out.) Then blast him at 400yards, and if he hasn't kill you at that point, you win.
Still, 1 v 1 against ostwinds, the il2 is screwed.
What the GV system needs is a draw away from the AA vehicles. AA vehicles should be just that, anti aircraft. The other vehicles, panzer, m8, tiger, whatever else will be added, should be the vehicles for killing other GV's, towns, fields, etc. The ostwind should be supporting the attack force, not leading it. I'm not really sure how to do this short of tweaking the damage inflicted on ground targets, reducing the ostwind, and increasing the damage to buildings from the 75mm+ guns...
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" reducing the ostwind, and increasing the damage to buildings from the 75mm+ guns..."
Yes, I agree full to this. I used 42(!) cannon shells from the Panzer to destroy 1 FH. Thats no Hangar, it's a Atomic shelter.
Sailor
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In the game 'IL-2 Sturmovik' it is. I rammed an 109, it crashed but the only damage I got was a bent cowling. Go figure.
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Of my 205 kills this tour:
41 was achieved in a Bf109G-10.
39 was achieved in an IL-2(!)
Since I've exclusively used IL-2 for anti-GV sorties, out of those 39 kills in the IL-2 effectively 14 were Panzers and 10 were Ostwinds. Of the many IL-2 sorties, I am quite confident I survived through almost all of them.
Of course, I've attacked GVs in all sorts of other aircrafts through many tours, and I have yet to find such distinct aircraft for knocking GVs out of the game. I think it means all the more because I'm an average pilot.
IL-2 is the most ideal platform for knocking GVs down for most of the average people out there. There is no doubt about this.
Since there was rarely enough time for a Rook plane to catch enough alt these past few months, all my anti-Ostie attacks started hastily at low altitudes.. average 3000 feet, 4000 feet at maximum.
The key is using the 6 bombs to your maximum advantage. There is rarely enough time or altitude for the IL-2 to go through a precision drop in dive-bombing style. So I've practiced low-alt shallow angle bombing with the drop delay set to 0.10. This drops the 6 bombs in a consecutive line with the impact circles each overlapping about half of each other. Quite useful feature in knocking out GVs.
When done right, most of the times the bombs will either knockout the 37mms or make the engine smoke, or detrack an IL-2 and immobilize it - in any case making it harder for the Ostie driver to shoot at incoming target.
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Still, 1 v 1 against ostwinds, the il2 is screwed.
Exactly, and that's mostly why the Il-2 is pretty unused in the MA. I know I fly it from time to time, it's actually easy to avoid fighters most of the time, but the damn Osties just chew you to bits.
That's why I say the P-47 is better.... it can pour 8 .50's into the turret and knock it out in one pass. Plus, it'll be fast enough to create a hard target. The Il-2 is just too slow and makes for easy Ostie meat unless distracted.
-Soda
The Assassins.
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PERK THE OSTY!
Simple no? ;)
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Originally posted by OIO
PERK THE OSTY!
Simple no? ;)
Not really, simply perking the osty makes GV attacks worthless, though it is a start.
There needs to be a way for GV's to kill a town, as well as a field. Currently the ostwind is the only GV that can do it in a reasonable amount of time. Something would need to be done to allow the panzer or m8, and probably the upcoming tiger, to be able to kill a town. Those big guns do so little damage-over-time, it's ridiculous.
To reiterate the point I made before, the AA vehicles should be supporting the GV attacks, not leading them.
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Make towns, hangers, factories, the HQ and hardened buildings immune to shells smaller than 40mm in diameter. At the same time increase the damage that the big guns do to structures.
Leave the Ostwind unperked.
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"Make towns, hangers, factories, the HQ and hardened buildings immune to shells smaller than 40mm in diameter. At the same time increase the damage that the big guns do to structures. "
Could the M-3 have an exception?
J_A_B
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Originally posted by udet
In the game 'IL-2 Sturmovik' it is. I rammed an 109, it crashed but the only damage I got was a bent cowling. Go figure.
I was in an out of ammo I-16 and there were 3 stukas left to kill, So I figure I'll take out one by ramming him with my wing, I misjudged, my prop takes his whole tail section off. My engine is still running wth I say. I go up behind the next one and repeat, down he goes. It was quite a solid dead 6 impact. Im thinking wow, aint this porked. Third time was the charm though, my engine died as I chopped the last stukas tail off. Full realism they call it lol.
now the il-2 monkeys are gonna throw poop at me.
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If you perk the Ostie and not add any other air-defense, GV attacks would be totally doomed. There needs to be something in air-defense somewhere between the Ostie and the M16. Maybe, a formation of M16's, maybe some other unit that can put up a credible air-defense. Add that to making GV's a little harder to spot from the air and you'd likely have something.
OH yeah, and make Panzers and anything with a big barrel better against structures. Firing half your ammo to knock out a single hanger in a Panzer is pointless. A fuel tank should honestly go up with 1 hit of HE, for example.
-Soda
The Assassins.
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I think the answer is to make tanks even harder to see. that is thier historical defence against air attack that and numbers.
When a ground vehicle is stopped it should have no dot. But when its moving full speed it should have a dust plume.
All gvs should have a 50cal anit aircraft mg that has fast 360 degree traverse and can fire strait up. Something to show that these things were never alone and defeating the pop gun on one tank in no way shows the risk associatied with attacking ground vehicles.
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Originally posted by Soda
If you perk the Ostie and not add any other air-defense, GV attacks would be totally doomed. There needs to be something in air-defense somewhere between the Ostie and the M16. Maybe, a formation of M16's, maybe some other unit that can put up a credible air-defense. Add that to making GV's a little harder to spot from the air and you'd likely have something.
The M16 is a FAR better AA platform than the ostwind, especially in a defensive roll(Rather than waiting for someone to try ans strafe you)
The Ostwind is better in the MA for a couple of reasons. First is survivability, it's much harder to disable or kill than the m16. The second is the obvious one-ping-kill shots, which are easy to get on someone trying to strafe you. Plus it's exceptionally good at killing structures and other GV's, making it the best choice in GV's.
The M-16 is a FAR better vehicle for hitting planes which aren't coming straight at you. It's weakness is that any plane can kill it by strafing alone.
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Innominate,
The M-16 is a FAR better vehicle for hitting planes which aren't coming straight at you. It's weakness is that any plane can kill it by strafing alone.
The M16 is too vulnerable as a single unit. It is swiss cheese for the first person to push a strafing pass and the .50's simply don't have the hitting power to keep anyone from getting within lethal strafing range. Once it is hit, it has to respawn, likely far away from the units it was trying to protect. It's pretty rare to actually get a damaged M16.... usually it's just poof, gone.
The mentality seems to be, with the Ostwind you are in fear because you know that anytime within D2.5 there is a risk of a single ping death. With the M16 you know you can likely get within D1.7, maybe even take a couple of pings, and still knock out whatever you'd like. At D1.7 the .50's hits are pretty ineffective so it takes quite a few hits to usually do any significant damage. If there were something that mounted a 20mm cannon on it, that would be different. Planes would be concerned but might still survive a couple of lucky ping.
-Soda
The Assassins.
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Thats exactly right soda.
AA vehicles are used for killing aircraft, not defending from them. As long as the primary use of GV's is for killing planes, than the ostwind is it.
Though if Im driving an m3, I'd much rather be sitting next to an m16 than an ostwind. While the ostwind is better at defending itself, the m16 is better at defending others.
AA vehicles are pointless unless they're supporting something.
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Let's take a look at IL-2 insides:
Wing of IL-2, inside and outside. Just normal thin aluminium.
(http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/photoreports/blenheim2001/varasto-il2-005t.jpg)
(http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/photoreports/blenheim2001/varasto-il2-006t.jpg)
Fuel tank - covered by nothing but plywood:
(http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/photoreports/blenheim2001/varasto-il2-011t.jpg)
Those pics with the larger versions:
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/photoreports/blenheim2001/
And more of IL-2 and other planes:
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/photoreports/blenheim2001/muut.html
As said - its no tank. But well armored. Lots of places that are easily damaged by airplane. But the armor is well placed against GROUND fire and that's where IL-2 excels.
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I think Il-2 Sturmovik is something like a B17, can shoot half the wing, rudder an a elevator of and keeps on flying.
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I thought the majority of the armor consisted of a titanium bathtub around the pilot and gunner and was almost entirely there to stop rifle caliber attacks from the ground....
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Saw some video of an Il-2 a while ago, kinda a tour of the aircraft. The armour in many parts really appeared to be really thick aluminum plate around the engine and cockpit areas. The guide giving the tour actually had some difficulty lifting open the engine cowl cover on one side and commented to the camera guy who got a close-up of the edge of the hatch. The edge appeared to be 1cm thick, far thicker than any aircraft sheet I've ever seen. REALLY bad joints between panels too, some could barely be considered matching and appeared to have been hammered together to try and flatten them out.
-Soda
The Assassins.
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Soda that wasn't aluminum it was steel....
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Have seen a Il-2 up close we looked at it and marveled at how thick the armor was!. The underside was just a big piece of Metal. now plywood. I was impressed when I saw it. What I see here does not represent what I have read and seen with my own eyes.
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I figured it was steel but I know some parts were referred to as a type of aluminum in this video. Really rough fit on the panels though, wow, looked like the mountings underneath were all wrong, but I guess that's just the rugged look :) Some of the plates looked as thick as the guides finger when they opened them.. it was hard to believe that it could even fly with a skin like that.
The Il-2 actually is pretty tough in AH. I've flown them through horrific .50 cal fire and walked away with very little wrong. .303's seem totally ineffective (to the point of laughable). 20mm are tough, especially in the tail, and can hurt you reasonably quickly. I don't know, that's what I expected from the plane and seems to be pretty much what it delivers. All that said though, with all the Osties out there an Il-2 simply can't survive. It's not tough enough to even consider taking an Ostie hit and remaining in the fight. Sure, it might survive, it's one of the few planes that can, but it is just as likely to lose an entire wing or more.
-Soda
The Assassins.
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speaking of 303s, they should put it in on the german side in the next bob, that would be fun....
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Il-2 is too fragile in AH.
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For me this thing is a tank, i took 3 37mm hits from a flakpanzer today and all i had was a dead gunner. The 23mm cannons rip GV's apart like a knife through butter, i love this plane.:)
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Originally posted by thrila
For me this thing is a tank, i took 3 37mm hits from a flakpanzer today and all i had was a dead gunner. The 23mm cannons rip GV's apart like a knife through butter, i love this plane.:)
Thats callled a "fluke".
Il2 dies to 37mm rounds just as fast as anything else. As it probably should. Once again, the reason the il2 is so sickeningly vulnerable is that every target is a 37mm AA vehicle on a tank chassis.
The IL2 is a tankbuster for an arena where tanks are a rarity.
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Originally posted by Pooh21
Full realism they call it lol.
not only full realism, but also historically correct ...
"During this war with Germany, the Polikarpov I-16 began to be outclassed and to the ‘taran attacks.’ The Soviet fighters would deliberately ram their planes into the opposing German fighters and bombers risking their planes and their lives. "
http://www.tidetech.com/fighterfactory/polii16.html
Goner
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Once sure
twice maybe
after that youd think your prop would be bent all to hell
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They always had to bail after the attack. the intent wasnt to bash and land.
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I already killed about 13 targets with the il-2 this tour for the loss of one.
I might be lucky but a lot of them where osties.
I climb to 4-5K and dive on them release a bomb and ....bye bye ostie :)
The il2 is a good tank killer if not excellent.
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The Il-2 is fantastic against every vehicle except the Ostie. The problem is, almost every vehicle is an Ostie. Against the Ostie it is not really any better. What it makes up for with big cannons and the possibility of surviving a hit, it gives up in horrible climb/speed, and the small size of bombs. Seriously, the P-47 with a good dive is a better anti Ostie platform because it's speed is more effective than the armour, and the 1K bombs it can carry give a large enough blast radius to knock out an Ostie. The Il-2 simply has to get too close and is too slow to really get into the target unscathed. You can dive-bomb, but the awful climb rate simply doesn't compare.
It's not really a problem with the Il-2 in my opinion, it seems fine against almost everything, but it's a problem that the Ostwind is overpowerful and numerically dominant.
-Soda
The Assassins.
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You can use rockets on the ostie with an Il-2
I use salvo 2 then dive in at a 60 degree angle when icon pops up I fire, and break off works pretty good. I have my sight calibrated for 1.4k but its only a 2 shot deal, and most osties when you kill them pop right back up over and over and over.
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
I already killed about 13 targets with the il-2 this tour for the loss of one.
I might be lucky but a lot of them where osties.
I climb to 4-5K and dive on them release a bomb and ....bye bye ostie :)
The il2 is a good tank killer if not excellent.
Erm, you don't need an Il-2 to do that, or? just takes any ol' plane with a bomb... :)
Yet the Il-2 should have the armor to take out GV's in a way that any other plane would die in,
or was the Il-2 nicknamed "concrete bird" by the germans solely because it was slow?
:D
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U can dive really steep and recover at say d600
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To kill gv's use P-38. Even just the 50 caliber machine guns (no cannon) can make a Panzer explode.