Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: miko2d on October 30, 2002, 09:15:35 AM
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With my son turning a year old, I can not procrastinate any longer if I expect him to treat weapons as a basic item of a household. I need a gun of two.
I am looking for a basic versatile gun that is not too large and can be used by a medium-sized person primarily as a military weapon in short to medium range combat, not necessarily good for hunting, home-defence or long-range sniping. It should use ammo that is common and not too expensive to practice.
I would also be interested in a 22cal training weapon.
I looked at Ruger Mini autoloading rifles - Mini-14 which uses .223 Remington high-velocity NATO round (bullet weight 50-60 grain) and Mini-30 which uses 7.62x39 (Kalashnikov?) round (bullet weight 140-160 grain). 10 round magazines standard and longer ones can be used.
Both models look identical, have 18.5" barrel and are pretty compact. If I get one, I would consider equipping it with a bullpup stock for even more compactness and balance.
Anyone had any experience with those guns? Are they any good? Which caliber would be better choice? Which one has more recoil?
AK-47 uses the same round as Mini-30 but is heavier and has shorter barrel - and it's recoil was quite significant.
What do you think?
What about bullpup configuration? I always though that having all that stock taking space and heavy barrel protruding forward was a waste (except for a sniper weapon). There is apparently only one bullpup rifle being sold in US - Bushmaster M17 for Remingtom .223 round. just 30" total length with 21.5" barrel. Is that any good?
For practice I considered Ruger 10/22, which looks and feels close to Mini and can be equipped with similar bullpup stock if I go with it for primary weapon.
How about home defence? In pervious discussion use of longarms was discouraged because of unweildiness and risk of over-penetration. Also, owning a pistol is just too much hassle here in NYC. How about using a bullet-caliber 10-round carbine like Ruger PC 9 or Marlin 9mm Camp Rifle?
There is even a bullpup stock available for Marlin, so the part protruding from the handle forward would not be much longer than a long pistol while balance and control would probably be better?
Any other weapons worth considering?
Where could I obtain ballistic and trajectory data for those and other weapons/rounds?
My only real experience with rifles was mandated AK47 and AK74, so I may not even know which things to consider while buying a weapon, please advise me.
miko
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Get a dog.
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I'm into hunting rifles, can't help you there..but in response to the latter part of your post...
Best home defense is a shotgun, that way you won't waste your neighbor if you miss or the bullet passes thru the intruder.
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if ur looking for home defense, a shotgun is best as you are less likely to send a round thru a wall.
Personally, I'd choose a 12 gage pump riot gun with a laser site. I don't think there is anything more intimidating than hearing the and then seeing the little red dot traveling across the wall. Anyone in the house at that point will either be smart and leave, or they'll be in a world of hurt. Point and shoot
If ur looking for a training gun, stick with a .22 caliber as the ammunition is dirt cheap.
When you son gets older, upgrade to something a little more complex. No sense in spending large amounts of cash before he is ready.
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Best home defense money can buy and the kidd will love it.
As for a gun?
Well If you can not do a handgun, the only real choice for you is a shotgun.
LOL My advice, get the hell out of the New yuck area!
Just do not move to California, it sucks here too for gun owners.
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I couldn't resist this one:
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For home defence, I guess an M-60 with autotracking IR-sensor system.
For driving purpose I heard that Porche had an old model of optional that was used a lot of years ago but it's still a good one.
Look at your car-sellers if there is still some PzKw V left, the ones with the Porche turret, they are useful in heavy traffic situation, too.
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Originally posted by miko2d
What about bullpup configuration? I always though that having all that stock taking space and heavy barrel protruding forward was a waste (except for a sniper weapon). There is apparently only one bullpup rifle being sold in US - Bushmaster M17 for Remingtom .223 round. just 30" total length with 21.5" barrel. Is that any good?
The main problem with bullpup weapons (Like the crappy SA80) is that the sight line is so high above the barrel, because of the stock/action configuration.
This means that the vertical convergence angle between your sight line and the barrel line is much higher than on a 'traditional rifle' where the sight line is much closer to the barrell.
The upshot of this is that if you zero your sights at 150m you will find that the bullet will be way out at other ranges.
Also bullpup rifles are not suitable for left handers since they tend to get spent cartridges in the face
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"With my son turning a year old, I can not procrastinate any longer if I expect him to treat weapons as a basic item of a household. I need a gun or two.
Lol!... awesome. :D
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Actually Nash, I took him seriously! My sons have watched me clean my weapons, and the "fascination" of guns are no longer...matter of fact, the 6 yr. old now helps me clean them. He is looking forward to turning 8, thats when he starts training with air rifles. At 10, he'll own his first .22 long rifle...same as I, and a hand-me-down Ruger .22.
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If you're serious...
Get a Ruger 10/22. No explanation needed. Its simply the best general purpose 22 on the market.
As for the rest...
Mini-14s are OK. I prefer the AR-15 to the Mini-14, however. And I do believe I'd rather get an AK-47 than a Mini-30 (if they are the same round.. you sure its not a .308?).
I don't really know why you'd want to get the bullpups out on the market right now... you could buy a new car for cheaper.
AKDejaVu
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MT,
Dogs provide a certain measure of security...but hardened cons aren't afraid of them. They can be killed fairly easily by a man with a hammer.
Far be it from me to contradict some of my fellow gun owners, but a shotgun is not ideal for home defense because of its length. If you attempt to cut it down you can get in a lot of trouble with the law. Just ask Randy Weaver. Some experts believe that a good quality, low-velocity handgun is a better choice. No .44 magnums please.
Regards, Shuckins
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Mossberg 500 series pump shotgun.
They are way cheap, and with the 2 barrels and bag of choke tubes you can hunt all game birds and small game. Plus large animals like deer and wild boar. Oh and it will be hard not miss intruders WITH dogs. The smaller rifle barrel will be a compact in home defence weapon. Plus you ought not kill the neighbors while shooting the burgler.
Just don't shoot your eye out kid.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Get a dog.
He might be Muslim. Where's your famous liberal sensitivity? :rolleyes:
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Get a gun AND a dog! :D A good German Shepherd is a rough customer that I wouldnt want to mess with if I were a burglar, and a dog is far more alert than you could possibly ever be. The dogs skills in deterrence and alerting you to intruders is his most important function, but never underestimate their ability in a fight if you have the right kind of dog. I wouldnt want to take one on with the aforementioned hammer. However, a bad guy with a gun could remove the threat of a dog very quickly assuming he didnt have to worry about noise.
I grew up in the country where if a burglar had broken in, he could have fired a machine gun without drawing any attention from the neighbors since the closest neighbors were far away. We didnt have much crime but we always had to stand ready for self defense. I agree that a shotgun is the best weapon for self defense under most circumstances, even with a long barrel. The high probability of a hit, and the stunning impact from a load of buckshot make the shotgun king. However, a pistols compactness and easy pointability compensate for its lack of power, reduced accuracy. I believe that the .45 ACP is the all time greatest in terms of a defensive cartridge, but that is an endless debate that I dont want to get into here. Personally I would prefer a .45 ACP autopistol near the bed area and a shotgun stored nearby (20 or 12 gauge). If like in our old house, there was nice clear fields of fire (we had an open balcony from upstairs overlooking most of the first floor area) the shotgun would be ideal, assuming enough warning time elapsed that you could get the shotgun, assume position, still catch the intruder in the downstairs area. The pistol would be used in last ditch situations where the intruder had already gained access to the bedroom area and such.
Again, having a dog increases the chances of early detection of any intruder and would allow you to engage him with your best weapon (the shotgun).
Calling the police for us was a very poor option since we lived 30 minutes from the nearest town, and thus response time was likely to be at least that long. Fortunately there is little crime that far out in the country, but we had to go to full red alert several times when I was younger.
Once four men robbed a local gas station, making off with cases of alchohol. They were reported to be armed with at least one handgun. After a high speed police chase, they were forced off the road near our house. A very large manhunt ensued with all local residents being warned not to answer the door to strangers. My dad was cutting hay and not about to lose a days work so he strapped on a pistol and went back to work. I was stationed on an exterior balcony with a shotgun and pistol to ensure that nobody approached the house from the rear unnoticed. The Sheriffs department fortunately caught the last of the men about 1/8th of a mile behind our house in the forest. In this case, police were close but in others, response time was very long.
One night poachers fired at some deer in a field in front of our house. My dad stepped outside, just in time to hear another bullet crack past the house. My dad was angered by the fact that they were firing almost directly towards our house, not to mention the fact that they were poaching our deer. He ran out without even stopping to get a gun, and chased them down in his car. The interstate is nearby, and once on the interstate he ran them down easily. After writing down their license plate numbers, he quickly jumped off on a nearby exit. They must have thought at first that he was a law enforcement vehicle, but upon seeing him leaving the interstate, they also spun around in the median and started chasing him. Now my dad was a little nervous, as he was unarmed, and they had at least one hunting rifle for sure. He outran them in a chase with speeds from 110-120mph, and rather then go directly back to our house with them right behind, he went to my grandfathers place nearby to borrow a pistol, and to call the police, and also my mom to tell us not to open the door. Again I was stationed upstairs with shotgun to defend the frontal area of the house. At the time of this incident I was perhaps 11 or 12 years old. The police took about 40 minutes to arrive. Fortunately the poachers never showed up.
These are just 2 of at least 6 incidents that I have personally experienced in my 25 years, where having a gun for self defense could have been the difference between life and death. Fortunately for me (and for the bad guys too) none of them ever made it to the shooting stage. But any one of them could have. I relate one last incident that happened to some of our neighbors to show what could happen in a situation like these.
Two teenagers from Baton Rouge, a 17 year old punk, and his 15 year old girlfriend, stole a car and went on a crime spree. They ran out of gas in northern Lousiana near where we lived, and abandoned the car. They stopped at a house and asked to use the phone. There was a lady at home, with her two kids, one a girl about 13 years old, and her little brother about 8 years old. The lady felt a little uneasy for some reason apparently and didnt invite them into the house, but brought the portable phone to the door for them to use. They then asked for a drink of water. The 13 year old girl went to the kitchen to get it when she heard a shot. She then heard more shooting and ran out the back door to a neighbors house. The criminals chased her partway firing at her as she crossed the pasture that separated the two houses. She made it safely, and the police were called from there. When they arrived they found that the 2 perps had stolen the family vehicle and were gone. The mother had been gunned down in the doorway, and the little boy was found dead in his bedroom behind the bed with his bb gun. He apparently retreated to there and tried to defend himself with this. The community was in an uproar over this incident as you can imagine, and the two were caught not long thereafter. The boy is still in prison (he got life if I remember correctly) and the girl has since been released.
I relate these stories to show what can happen. To my mind, having a gun for self defense isnt paranoid, its just simply good sense. You will probably never need a gun, but if you ever do need one, you will probably REALLY need it. The person that is in the end responsible for your own safety and security is not the police, it is you!
I recommend dog and guns if circumstances permit. This is an awesome defensive combination. I would no more stay in a house without a gun, than I would ride in a car without a seatbelt.
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Thanks, guys - keep it coming.
AKDejaVu: I don't really know why you'd want to get the bullpups out on the market right now... you could buy a new car for cheaper.
I didn't know they were that expencive. I would not mind paying extra for quality stuff but not thousands. I want a weapon I wouldn't be afraid to scratch. On the other hand a plastic bulpup-stock for Mini, 10/22 or Marln seem to be around $100 - definitely worth experimenting with.
Could you expand a bit on Mini-14 vs AR-15? Compared to AK-47?
Mini is lighter and does look less "military" than AR or AK - which may be important in some situations. It can pass for a hunting rifle.
Get a dog.
I do have a boxer. I doubt it would be much use against a determined attacker.
I used to train dogs for defence/attack - mostly germans. Only a well-trained dog is worth anything against a man with a knife or a bludgeon.
Anyway, home defence is not a most pressing issue for me right now but rather rasing my son to be a man.
bounder: ...sight line is so high above the barrel...
I was always surprised that it could be a problem. Wouldn't it make sense to adjust sight as if it's level with the barrel and then just aim 2 inches (or whatever) higher at any range?
I had that problem with my tank sights - where the cannon is two feet to the right and one feet down and machinegun is four feet to the right and one feet down - quite a parallax to adjust for!
Durr: To my mind, having a gun for self defense isnt paranoid
It's not like one has to fire a gun if he has one. On the other hand if you need one but do not have it...
miko
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Go with the Ruger 10/22. That was my first fun when i turned 10 yrs old, thing is a breeze to shoot, accurate as hell, easy to clean, and has A toejam TON of modifications you can put on it(50 roundclips,you can pretty much make it look like a paramilitary weapon). I still have that gun today and use it quite often it has never skipped a beat.
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Originally posted by miko2d
With my son turning a year old, I can not procrastinate any longer if I expect him to treat weapons as a basic item of a household. I need a gun of two.
miko
Nothing cuter than those little one year old fingers wrapped around a .45 :rolleyes:
and this really is scary.... "Anyway, home defence is not a most pressing issue for me right now but rather rasing my son to be a man. "
WTH does a gun have to do with being a man?
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The Ruger is a fine choice for a training weapon.
While most suggest a shotgun for home defense, I have always preferred a handgun. The best gun for home defense is one that you can use in a high tension situation. It should be one without a lot of bells and whistles and one that you've practiced with until its operation becomes second nature. My suggestion to someone who is not going to spend a lot of time at the range is a .357 six-gun. Easy to use and decent stopping power. After that is a double-action semi-auto in 9mm. (9mm isn't the best stopping round, but the recoil is controlable and also easy to shoot) I do agree that compared to a Mini-14, the shotgun is a better home defense choice. If buying a shotgun, get a pump 12ga. Mossburg, Winchester, or Remington are all great choices.
However, why not get both? :)
Also, the Ruger .22 pistol is a great way to teach him how to shoot a handgun.
Other pieces of advice:
- Take him to a NRA or Game and Fish hunter safety course
- Make him learn the two most important rules of gun safety
1. The gun is always loaded. Don't ever assume someone else has unloaded it. And if you set it down and take your eyes off it with other people around, check it again when you pick it up.
2. Never point it at anything you don't want to destroy. This includes your buddy, the dog and the tv.
The beauty of these two rules is that if he breaks one, the other covers him.
I grew up in a house where my father collected military firearms. He owned over 100 guns. Some of my best childhood memories are of us out in his gunroom for hours, talking, working, or just hanging out together. However he drilled those two rules into my brain. He would even place blanks in the guns he knew I liked to mess around with just to see if I would pull the trigger on one without checking it first (I never did btw). As I was growing up, if I wanted to see a gun, all I had to do was ask. He would take the time to get it down, make sure I was treating it safely until he could trust me on my own. This took the mystery out of guns and it made me respect them. To me guns where a part of life. I believe that this also made me a more responsible person.
Good luck with your son.
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I did'nt know miko was such a good fisherman. (S)
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why don't you both sign up for Bruce Lee Kung Fu lessons ???
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Nothing cuter than those little one year old fingers wrapped around a .45 :rolleyes:
and this really is scary.... "Anyway, home defence is not a most pressing issue for me right now but rather rasing my son to be a man. "
WTH does a gun have to do with being a man?
Uhhh... he's not saying he's gonna teach his ONE yr old to shoot. He's giving the impression that he wishes to begin a slow process of familarity w/weapons. In doing this he will erase they "mystique" and "power" feelings one get from these TOOLS.
He will most likely also as time goes by learn about the distructiveness of a weapon.
Something else a gun owner should do w/his child is hunt. He should see the results of a weapon. Make him gut it, skin it. My father did this for me. After that I never considered any weapon to be a "toy".
xBAT
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My daughter is almost 6 months. This weekend i'm putting up the barbed wire fance and digging the first machine gun pit. Howitzer in the backyard is ready to go too !!!
:D
So how do i prepare my daughter to be a "woman" ??? Buy her a sink ? :D
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Originally posted by fd ski
So how do i prepare my daughter to be a "woman" ??? Buy her a sink ? :D
EZ-Bake Oven of course!
-SW
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midnight Target: WTH does a gun have to do with being a man?
Not a gun specifically, or rather not just a gun but the mindset that only violence or threat of it settles issues and that defence of your close ones is first and foremost your responcibility. Also realisation that the world is a very dangerous place and "everyone is a soldier" attitude. There is a lot of active propaganda to the opposite going around - just to counter it may take a lot of effort.
So how do i prepare my daughter to be a "woman"
Of course my "man" is a fugure of speech for 'balanced human being' - if I have a daughter, she will have to learn pretty much the same things. Since a proper woman is less likely to have a career but would rather stay home, there is a greater probability that she, not her husband will have to confront danger to the family or just educate her children. (To preempt questions, "proper woman" is the one that bears and raises children as opposed to a "career-man sans noodle").
And I am not going to let a child handle even an airgun untill at least 8 years old and 22cal a few years later - just want him/them to accept as a natural the idea that gun ownership and regular shooting practice is a part of normal life, first through example of his parents, later himself.
miko
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get a crossbow
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any of these will work just fine.
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just want him/them to accept as a natural the idea that gun ownership and regular shooting practice is a part of normal life - miko
That's odd... You don't have a gun. But now that yer kid is born you want one to show him how normal having a gun is.
I wonder if he's gonna move out of the house one day, have a kid, then buy a gun to show his kid how normal having a gun is.
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miko, why you always have to be so damn serious ? :D
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Miko,
I'd drop the bullpup idea as the weapons you mentioned don't come in that design and you'd have to modify them. The bullpup isn't all that ballanced either. It is short however.
As to the AR15, and mini 14 and calibers. Either are fine weapons and shoot well. I have each one in .223 cal. and like shooting them. I also like my chicom rifle in 7.62. It's short, too short in the stock really but it shoots nicely and has a mild recoil. The ammo for either is very common so no problems there. The .223 might be a bit more available later on as it's still the main caliber for the armed forces. That feature virtually guarantees a ready source of ammunition as it will be a popular caliber for that reason.
For the home defense. I am not a fan of a shotgun. It will penetrate wallboard and doors in the house so that advantage is bogus. It is also a long gun which makes it awkward in close quarters like hallways and doorways. A handgun is really the best alternative for a defensive weapon, IMO. Use a medium caliber like the .38 and set aside time to practice wirh it to be proficient. If you are not willing to practice, attend a shooter safety course or concealed weapon course you really aren't serious enough about it to go get one for home defense. You owe it to yourself and family to know the weapon and more importantly know when NOT to use it.
Security of the weapon is another issue. You should have a secure location to lock it to keep it out of the kids hands when you are away. This includes your kids friends as well. Remember that not all kids will stay away from it and they won't all be yours in your house. Lock them up and don't just depend on a gun lock.
The dog IS a good idea. Don't count on it to stop the bad guy but it will help to let you know there is a problem when he starts to bark. Early warning is a good idea when there is trouble.
Lastly get a .22 as you'll find yourself willing to take it out and shoot it more than any other caliber. It's much cheaper and fun for plinking as well as targets.
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If youre looking for a really heavy duty rifle, why not consider the M-14?
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If you want compact go for an Uzi or a Mac10 (personal favorite). In between you got your MPs. If you want rifle, go for an AK or an M16 or if perhaps an HK or FN FAL. Now as far as shotguns go, dont forget to saw of the barrel. If you do that, you might not even have to pull the trigger.
Dont forget to get the manacing "I GOTS LOTSA GUNS SIGN".
LOL, just JKing.
Guns arent dangerous, people are. My 2cents.
:D
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Heres what my sign would read.
WARNING OWNER OF LITTER OF DANGEROUS KITTENS AND SWISS ARMY POCKET KNIFE
:D
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For home defence:
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I think there is a used Bushmaster here in Maryland...
Remember, guns are machined metal. Your car engine is machined metal too. Both end up in the hands of loving idiots. I like when the gun idiot shoots himself, and not someone else. I also like when the loving idiot driver kills himself, and not someone else. Both a gun and a car's reputation are at the mercy of the loving idiot. How many loving idiots do you know?
Thorns
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People who don't want to have a weapon around have never needed one. The first time you are in need, may be the last time you ever need anything.
I live in the south. Everyone grows up around guns. My father was from farm country in Miss and my mother is from farm country in Ark. There are areas in our country that are 60 miles from the police or sheriffs. You dont own a gun, therefore, you plan on never being threatened, never to have to defend a loved one or yourself, believe the Police will show up in time and think that everyone around you is the same as you, peace loving and warm hearted. Guns are a tool to those who know them and something to blame for deaths to those who don't know them. Guns are designed to kill. Some things need killing in this world.
HC
BTW..a good Walther .380 is a nice size pistol for women and and youngsters.
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Nash That's odd... You don't have a gun. But now that yer kid is born you want one to show him how normal having a gun is.
I am a procrustinator - what can I say? Too much paperwork hassle in NY City.
I really did not intend that to become a social/political thread - just a technical question.
miko, why you always have to be so damn serious ?
Good question... :)
Thanks, Mav.
I am almost set on getting a Mini - now the question remains whether mini-14 or Mini-30.
miko
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Hardcase,
What town or area of Arkansas are you from? I'm originally from Dermott, but now live in the Monticello area.
Regards, Shuckins
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The walther in the picture above is in .32 I had to order it.. plenty of .380's but i actually think the .32 is a better round. both are a tad weak but the .32 penetrates clothes better and you get an extra round... Oh... the other guns in the picture... The 1911 is in .45 as is the 1917 Smith but it uses full moon clips to hold the auto round in the cylinder (also the worlds fastest speedloader). The two ruger redhawks are in .44 mag. the short one is a custom gun with 4" barrel and dehorned hammer etc.
lazs
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I was born and live in Memphis. My mother was from Brinkley, her father fished the White River. Dad was born in Texas and family moved to Miss.
HC
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Remeber if you saw off the barrel it still must be 18" long. Federal Regs.
HC
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Miko,
I lean towards the mini 14 in .223 due to the variety of ammo available. You can get anything from plinking to hunting rounds. Not that the .223 is a serious hunting cartridge. There are just more choices available. The same for magazines.