Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Nash on October 30, 2002, 12:28:01 PM
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Just curious...
How many of you have had your home invaded when you were inside and could do anything about it?
I'm expecting BIG numbers here folks (by the sounds of things)... don't let me down! :)
Also, if this did occur, what did you end up doing about it?
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Once... but I couldn't get to my gun before my dogs got to the person stupid enough to try to get in my house through the back door.
I found his hat next to our fence.
AKDejaVu
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We had a bat fly into our living room once. One round of .22 birdshot probably saved our lives.
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Here's a question to go with the one above...
How many people do not enter the house with someone in it because of the possible presence of guns?
AKDejaVu
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Nice try Deja... :)
Ok I'll bite though. Yes, this happened to me once. I wanted to break into a house but there was a big gun in the front window so I thought better of it.
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People dont break in to people's home's when they're there. Its not a SMART thing to do. Now that being said MOST criminals arent to bright, but even they will shy away from indiv's who are armed.
The weapons at home are there to protect you while your home. If your not and they break in, steal whatever its not the end of the world.
Take away the weapons from law abidding citizens and leave them in the hands of indiv's who already have mastered the art of smuggling drugs/people etc into the nation and see what happens. We'll all be sitting ducks 24/7.
I love my few weapons. The ONLY way ANYBODY is going to take them away from me is by my demise. I know there are quite afew US Citizens who feel this way.
SOMETHINGS are worth dieing over.
xBAT
P.S. Also..in light of the successfulness of our drug policies, and whatever else we've decided to outlaw over the years I fail to see how ANY indiv w/half a bulb upstairs can think gun control is going to be the magic pill to fix all our problems.....
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Do you want to know about firearms for hunting and other recreational habits like sporting clays/skeet shooting or just plain home defense?
Simply because of the 4 12 gauge shotguns in the house three can be used in the narrow hallways between the front door and the bedrooms in the rear/upstairs. The 2 30/30 rifles and one .30-06 I have are simply not effective in a home defense role.
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Originally posted by batdog
Take away the weapons from law abidding citizens and leave them in the hands of indiv's who already have mastered the art of smuggling drugs/people etc into the nation and see what happens. We'll all be sitting ducks 24/7.
My goodness...Cremo called ME paranoid in the other gun post.
I guess everyone in Europe and the Carribean (where there ARE drug dealers and bad people too) should just lock their doors and stay inside where it is safe, for the rest of their lives given the lack of guns in general circulation.
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No Nash... I give you a nice try on trying to quantify something that is unquantifiable.
Deterance is imeasurable. If it works, nobody really needs to acknowledge that it does.
Instead... you choose to focuse on situations where deterence did not work... as if somehow that would make a difference.
Maybe you might want to try finding some statistics on burglaries/rapes/murders occuring in occupied houses across countries with/without gun laws.
What you are trying to do right now is simply cheesy.
AKDejaVu
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My goodness...Cremo called ME paranoid in the other gun post.
Mmph... Bingo. I posted this directly after reading Creamo's post. Not sayin' y'all is, and not sayin' y'all isn't. The cases vary I suppose.
Still, I'm sincerely curious about how many people here have had their home invaded. Literally actually invaded neccessitating either of these two remarks: "Damn thank god I've got this gun" or "Oh toejam I wish I had a gun". I'm starting to think it must be a common occurance... It must be, right?
Btw... keep an eye on that popeye... he's a sleeper. He's got the stuff and one day he's gonna give the greats (such as Creamo and Elfennwolf imho) a serious run for their money. :)
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Huh Deja?
It's you who tried to measure the unquantifiable. I simply wanted to know a very measureable account of who here's had their toejam messed with.
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Originally posted by Curval
I guess everyone in Europe and the Carribean (where there ARE drug dealers and bad people too) should just lock their doors and stay inside where it is safe, for the rest of their lives given the lack of guns in general circulation.
Nah, but they should know that whenever someone with a gun comes knocking at their door, they are pretty much oblidged to do what they are told... even if its just a matter of kneeling down in front of them.
AKDejaVu
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Ya know what's great about America? You guys can bark about what you think is right and wrong and I can own a firearm.
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Originally posted by Nash
Huh Deja?
It's you who tried to measure the unquantifiable. I simply wanted to know a very measureable account of who here's had their toejam messed with.
No nash... I was not trying to measure anything.
Its as simple as this...
You ask for something that is completely irrelivant to attempt to quantify something. The truth is, the only relevant data pertains to what does not happen... not to what does happen.
Once again... its irrelevant how many incidents happen in spite of deterance, its a matter of how many don't happen because of it. Fortunately, for the likes of you, it is immeasurable and thusly you can lable it irrelevant. I'll still maintain its the most relevant part of the equation.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
Nah, but they should know that whenever someone with a gun comes knocking at their door, they are pretty much oblidged to do what they are told... even if its just a matter of kneeling down in front of them.
AKDejaVu
But people don't come knocking at their door with guns...they are illegal.
Besides...I bite.
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I never have had a break in. But a nabor, a couple of house,s down, had one. The guy raped his 83 year old wife, and shot him in the stomach, twice. He died.
The intruder was a prison excapee, BTW.
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I git what yer sayin' Deja. And for what it's worth... in the great gun/no-gun debate you can put me in the category of I-could-give-a-rat's-arse.
But it was amusing to me... to indirectly label the anti-gun people as paranoid because they're scared of gettin' kilt by guns. As if to say the folks who make gun buyin' decisions based on the width of their hallways aren't a little bit in the cookoo department as well.
So I'm thinkin' about this, and contemplating where I stand on it all. All I can come up with is... nothin'. Guns just aint a part of my realm of reality. Maybe I don't want a gun because I really can't see much use for one. I mean, I don't even KNOW anyone who's been in a situation where they either needed to use a gun or wish there was a gun handy to use.
Thus, I'm wonderin' what alla the gun hoopla is about. And I'm askin', is your world a whole lot different than mine? Are your homes getting invaded? Are your friend's homes getting invaded? Co-workers?
Sincerely...
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twice.. once technically not in the "house" but someone breaking into my car in the driveway. I didn't shoot either time and yes... I was glad to have the gun. The lack of dialouge from the offender was refreshing I might add.... really cut down on the hostility.
But... Even the FBI admits that guns are used to prevent over 1,000,000 crimes per year. Pick up any issue of the "rifleman" the NRA publication for a dozen or so detailed examples of firearms being used to save lives. The column is called 'the armed citizen".
but nash... do as you please. just let me do as I see fit.
lazs
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Originally posted by Curval
My goodness...Cremo called ME paranoid in the other gun post.
I guess everyone in Europe and the Carribean (where there ARE drug dealers and bad people too) should just lock their doors and stay inside where it is safe, for the rest of their lives given the lack of guns in general circulation.
I dont see your point. Besides saying that YOUR way is better and that if YOU dont have the rights WE do then why should WE care if WE lose them.
Let me explain something. Its part of our constitutional rights. IF we allow it to be taken from us where does this put the rest of the constitution?
Is it just something we can change when ever we decide its easier than to deal w/the REASON WHY we see some of the gun related horrors we do now?
The indiv's who founded our nation thought enough over these rights that they went to war. Why should I feel any different.
xBAT
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
Here's a question to go with the one above...
How many people do not enter the house with someone in it because of the possible presence of guns?
AKDejaVu
And how many people have had guns stolen from their homes when they were not home?
wwrrrr... plunk...
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"but nash... do as you please. just let me do as I see fit."
Hey I've got no problem with that. I get out of work at 5 today, I've got to scramble to get something whipped up for dinner, and then there's this cool band playing tonight (at least I think it's tonight). I simply do not have the time to get in your face about guns nor write to my local omnibudsman about the issue.
Don't mistake my post as tryin' to make a point. I simply wanted to get a handle on where/how guns and violence are touching your lives.
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I live in a neighborhood of girlfriend beaters, drug addicts, alcoholics and a hell of a lot of Hells Angels bikers.
Always noise, always fights. So far, my baseball bat has been enough deterrance when they've knocked on my door asking for money or beaten up people just outside my door. I've seen enough violence for a life time.
If I could, I'd get a handgun. I have a shotgun and a 30.06, but they're stored at my parents place as I cannot fit the safe-like storage device mandatory by law into my tiny apartment.
But, IF I had a gun and they knew it, I'd probably be burglarized once every week. They'd wait til I was gone and then go hunting for it.
OTOH, there's no way they'd know whether I had it on me or not - or whether I'd return in the next two seconds holding the tool of their demise in my hands :D.
I dunno. I like Denmark the way it is, but I still believe that it at least should be possible to own a handgun for self defence, if you could prove you were responsible and could pass a state regulated certification.
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
... you choose to focuse on situations where deterence did not work... as if somehow that would make a difference.
AKDejaVu
"Deterence" implies "pervention" and a concealed weapon isn't a deterrant at all- it's an equalizer. You want deterance? Get a dog- a big one that bites. I guarantee nobody will attempt to break into your house while he's on duty, nobody will try to carjack you if he's in it with you and you won't be robbed walking down the street if he's on a leash. I'll guarantee you I'd whether rely on my dog to deal with an intruder than have to shoot some kid, but that's just me.
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Originally posted by batdog
I dont see your point. Besides saying that YOUR way is better and that if YOU dont have the rights WE do then why should WE care if WE lose them.
I think you made my point for me.
But, just to clarify....I was suggesting that you are being paranoid when you think that giving up your guns makes you an easy target 24/7 and was suggesting that by using that paranoid logic those in Europe and the Carribean should stay inside...because guns are illegal there.
As to the constitutional thing...read post #2 in Ripsnort's gun post for my views on that...I don't feel like re-typing it.
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curval.. the 2nd amendment refered to tyranny from within and without. That is timeless. Something that as a "subject" you should understand. We don't do well as "subjects" here.
lazs
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Btw...
"Pick up any issue of the "rifleman" the NRA publication for a dozen or so detailed examples of firearms being used to save lives. The column is called 'the armed citizen". - Lazs
They run articles like that in the newspaper from time to time. Only they're about grocery clerks gettin pasted by stick-up dudes with guns. The columns sometimes begin with the phrase "armed citizen" and go on to describe how a gun was used to *end* a life.
Go figure... ;)
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nash... you asked why and I told ya. Guns are used hundreds of times more to prevent crime than aid it... in places with higher concealed carry/ laxer gun laws... crime is lowest. More guns... less crime. If you have the honesty then read Lott's book of that name. It isn't very touchy feely I'm afraid and is simply... factual so... you may not like it much but... you will not be able to disprove it..
By the way... Vancouver crime rate is going up at an alarming rate (my brother lives there) even with the lack of guns... eh (pardon the expression)? Criminals are shooting people even though it is illegal for them to posses guns.... imagine that?
lazs
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Originally posted by Curval
I think you made my point for me.
But, just to clarify....I was suggesting that you are being paranoid when you think that giving up your guns makes you an easy target 24/7 and was suggesting that by using that paranoid logic those in Europe and the Carribean should stay inside...because guns are illegal there.
As to the constitutional thing...read post #2 in Ripsnort's gun post for my views on that...I don't feel like re-typing it.
Curval..you dont understand what I'm getting at or trying anyway. The USA isnt a European nation. Our people DO NOT think like yours. We DO NOT have the same history you do. Your a people who accepted that it was some guys right to rule you because he got to waer that pointy hat thingy called a crown and SWORE up and down that God justified his rule as being right.
We on the other hand get sick at the tough of some fat inbred guy saying he has the right to govern us.
This lead to something called our revolution w/intern brought about our constitution.
Once again... if we COMPROMISE our constitution in one area we might as well go back to that fat inbred guy w/the shiney pointy hat thingy telling us what to do again. And let me tell you..Americans simply dont bend those knees very well.
xBAT
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I do not keep my guns handy in the house. I wear a gun every day, but I keep it in the trunk of my unmarked assigned police vehicle, in violation of departmental policy. (I tried a trigger lock, but my kids know I keep the key on my key ring.)
Before I was married, I lived alone with my Black Lab. Back then, I kept my gun handy. The dog woke me up with low growling one summer night. I heard a noise in the driveway. I grabbed my gun and went out the door. I saw 4 guys pushing my Triumph Spitfire down the street. I yelled out something like, STOP OR I'LL SHOOT!
They split in 4 different directions. My dog had earned his dogfood for the whole year. :D
I was glad I had the gun at the time, in case these guys were armed. I remember that I was not at all inclined to shoot at anyone, though.
It would take a lot more than a thief to cause me to shoot. I don't fire warning shots. I would only shoot to kill. And I know that if that day ever comes, its going to be a long day...
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I primarily own and use guns for enjoyment and relaxation. Just completed a 2 week hunting trip through Saskatchewan, South Dakota and Nebraska with my oldest son. A great trip and guns played a major role in the experience.
"Home defense" is just a secondary, ancillary use. I'd own guns for hunting and recreational target shooting in any event.
For those that don't like them, there is a Constitutional solution. If enough folks oppose the 2nd Amendment, it can be revised, amended or removed. The procedure exists and its use is clearly mapped out in the Constitution. So what's the problem?
If you don't like 'em, don't own 'em.
If you think banning/confiscating all guns will end violent crime, just check the stats in countries that have done so.
Cain "clipped" Able with a rock. While many things have changed since then, apparently there's a part of human nature that has not.
One thing that HAS changed is society's reaction to the criminals.
What would the response have been in early Dodge City if the Law had caught someone sniping folks from a dark alley? I think there'd have been a brief trial followed by a quick hanging.
Pretty much the same result had a murderer been caught "red-handed" bushwhacking a citizen of Rome with a sword in the days of Empire.
Now we try to "understand" them and "rehabilitate" them back into society.
Maybe they should just "lose their turn" like they used to?
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what xBAT said
the euro govts evolved from midieval monarchys and the people want to be ruled and expect to be ruled.
america is made up of people who many times gave up every thing they had to move to america because they wanted to rule themselves.
americans created their govt and their country , there is non like it in the rest of the world.
44MAG
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They work for defense.
I live in the country and had problems with stealing off my property. Caught several late at night trying to break in my pick-up. A few shots over their heads with the old AK-47 had the desired results. One broke his arm trying to get away when he ran into the shead. LOL!
Since then haven't had a bit of trouble. :D
I own around 15 guns and they have been part of my family's life for years. Hunting is big in our area and we were tought about guns before we learned to drive. (We were also taught you didn't shoot anything unless you were going to eat it.) I can remember taking my gun to school and storing it in the Priciples office so we could go hunting after school. (TRY THAT NOW!) I own a considerable armory but in all that I have never went on a spree and shot up any place and I take damn offense to anyone trying to lump me in with those types just cause I happen to own and like to shoot guns.
Card carring member of the NRA and proud of it!
to Batdog - they ain't getting mine either.
to Toad also - if they brought back the good old public hanging on the Court House square it would put a stop to alot of those thinking picking up a gun would make them a bigshot or gansta knowing the hangman was waitng on them.
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Hey...I like America...but frankly after reading all of these guns posts I thank GOD I wasn't born there. You guys really need guns to feel safe? That just plain SUCKS.
I've read how one guy keeps a loaded Colt 45 next to his bed...another has a shot-gun with lazer sights...many of you guys seems to have loaded guns in your houses.
...and you call yourselves free.
PAH!
The worst thing I have to worry about is whether my kids will wake me up at night.
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Anti- gun posts always make me think of the nature films, on TV. A big cat comes out of the underbrush. He runs down a gazelle. Rips out its throat. As he begins to feed, the rest of the heard goes back to milling around, and grazing. As if to say "That was no big deal. Nothing happened to ME"
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Curval, it's not a matter of "needing" a gun. I see its usefullness in protecting my family and I, but that's not my main reason for owning one.
I own them because I hunt. I'm going deer hunting with my father and brother-in-law this Friday.
I own them because their fun to shoot. Why else own 20 of them, including full autos?
I own them for protection, I am a prosecutor in a state where one was almost gunned down last year.
I also own them for home defense.
But, while two of the four reasons are defense/protection reasons, I'd own them for the other two alone.
I grew up in a house where my dad collected military firearms. He owned over 100; from (at one time or another) a .50 cal HBM2, a Vickers, Owen, Bren, 1917, 1919, Lewis, BAR, M-60, MG 42, Thompson, Sten, Sterling, Mac-10, and assorted M-16's and AK 47's. One friend owned a British 25lb'er cannon and another owns a 37 PAK cannon. Why? Becuase they are damned fun to shoot. And thank God I live in a country where I can pursue this hobby.
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what xBAT said
the euro govts evolved from midieval monarchys and the people want to be ruled and expect to be ruled.
america is made up of people who many times gave up every thing they had to move to america because they wanted to rule themselves.
Quite funny, but also quite untrue :=)
WE got rid of those monarchies. Then those of us not smart and fit enough to make it emigrated to the US, where even a sucker can make a living.
John, PFTTTFH to you :D
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As the drunk biker type was kicking at my door hollering. I got dressed and put my hikeing boots on. right after a kick I opened the door and gave him the size 12 right in the chest. He stumbled backwards into a fence and I cought him in the face with the same boot as he fell forwards off the fence. I gave him one more in the gut and let him run for it.
I callled the mounties and they found him with a dog some time later. Really got a good lesson on what it means to live in the low rent district.
I didnt consider getting out my gun. It never even crossed my mind that he might have had one. If he had had a gun he would have shot the door not kicked it I guess.
Dont know if this is a good example either way. I moved because of things like that. But I would not have stayed based on owning a gun.
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If there really isn't a need for something to defend yourself with over there, then you are indeed lucky. But that is not the hand that we were all dealt. People with an intent to do harm do not follow rules or laws, that is their nature. Simply giving them what they want or just giving in has been proven to be an unreliable method of survival. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't (seems like it works less and less as time goes on). Not everyone is a gambler.
Do some people honestly think that the US is a big urban/suburban/western/whatever battlefield where guns are everywhere and people itch to shoot each other for the fun of it? I know not every European thinks this way because the gun forums I frequent (http://www.thefiringline.com, http://www.hkpro.com) have users from Germany, Norway, Italy... and you should see what the folks in Norway can get compared to what we in the US can get. Over there, I get the impression that silencers are more of a courtesy to your neighbors than a tool of assassination.
Back to the topic (sorta), the older folks here in Hawaii like to reminisce of days past when you could leave everything unlocked, neighbors knew each other well, etc. Seems to me that's how things were in a lot of places before. Guns were around back then too, so it seems that their presence in the community didn't have a big effect on why society has changed. What else could it be?
Five years ago, someone broke into my car in the wee hours of the morning. He was caught red-handed by our condo's solitary (& unarmed) security guard. Supposedly the security guard told the perp to stay there so he could get his supervisor. You can guess what the perp did (he made off with my amplifier, mini-mag light, and air pressure gauge). My family and I were thinking the guard was too affraid to try and apprehend a real thief (the guard was over six feet tall, very intimidating looking, and the perp is about three to five inches shorter and not "built" at all). I don't think they even gave him a night stick or baton, all I saw was a radio (which he probably left back at his desk that night). If you don't give them something to fear, then they'll make off with anything they can.
mauser
p.s. Something I heard from a friend on theft; "If it ain't tied, screwed, glued, or bolted down, it's mine."
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Originally posted by StSanta
Then those of us not smart and fit enough to make it emigrated to the US, where even a sucker can make a living.
Graduating soon, thinking about emigrating (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68509)
StSanta:So I'm thinking about seeking a job in the US.[/b]
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Anyone here seen "Bowling for Columbine" yet?
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Uhm... on this BBS Thrawn? A Mike Moore film? I don't like the odds. :)
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Yeah, but based on this thread I was thinking maybe you had seen it.:D
My wife saw it yesterday and said she thought it was very good. I plan on seeing it either tomorrow or Friday.
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Perfection in anything is virtually impossible. With the countless variables influencing a society. The idea of creating a perfect one, is laughable.
History has shown that the more repressive a government is. The lower the crime rate. For example, communist Russia was a far more crime free society, than its current incarnation. Other then the lefties here, how many Americans would be willing to make that trade?
The price of a free society, is a degree of insecurity. Gun owners accept this, and attempt to take responsibility for there own security.
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Oh, nah. I haven't seen it. Prolly on video though. He can be pretty biased and unfair in general, and as long as you ignore that...well, I heard the movie is funny. But I'm guessing that yer average gun advocate wouldn't make it through the whole thing.
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curval... I enjoy plinking with handguns. I can do it any day I like and have a nice selection of firearms to do it with. You claim you go to the range whenever ... what? whenever you get away from a represive government? Wouldn't it be better to simply be able to shoot anytiime you wanted? For what purpose exactly are you giving up your freedom of choice? Are the people of bermuda so bloodthirsty and lclumsy that the government has to take their guns away for their own good?
lazs
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Originally posted by Nash
Uhm... on this BBS Thrawn? A Mike Moore film? I don't like the odds. :)
Hell... I can put you on the right or left if you've heard of the film at this point. :D
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Originally posted by StSanta
what xBAT said
the euro govts evolved from midieval monarchys and the people want to be ruled and expect to be ruled.
america is made up of people who many times gave up every thing they had to move to america because they wanted to rule themselves.
Quite funny, but also quite untrue :=)
WE got rid of those monarchies. Then those of us not smart and fit enough to make it emigrated to the US, where even a sucker can make a living.
John, PFTTTFH to you :D
Baaa..thats not what I quite ment Stsanta. More like in the timeline of our revolution.... but thank you for the support John. I think I should of made myself clearer but as many can tell my literary expertise at times is lacking in ablity to convey my message.
I once bashed Denmark about WW2 and Mr Santa made some good points that made me stfu and think. I do not EVER wish to bash other peoples nations... why? Because I dont live there and beyond WW2 I know little of their history.
Anyway....at least we've kept this civil. all..gonna go fly.
StSanta...WHY arent you FLYING!!!
xBAT
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well... as the man said... moore can be biased and unfair... basicly he is a leftist comedian who doesn't mind total fabrication and out of context half truths in the least. He can be funny but you will never get anything useful or factual out of his films unless it was mistake on his part and he is too smart to make many mistakes. His films are pure propoganda with such a thin veneer of journalism on them that only the dullest lefty is ever fooled. Still... he can get a laugh.. mostly by making people look foolish.
lazs
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We had somebody steal something from our (open) garage once. That's it.
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Originally posted by lazs2
curval... I enjoy plinking with handguns. I can do it any day I like and have a nice selection of firearms to do it with. You claim you go to the range whenever ... what? whenever you get away from a represive government? Wouldn't it be better to simply be able to shoot anytiime you wanted? For what purpose exactly are you giving up your freedom of choice? Are the people of bermuda so bloodthirsty and lclumsy that the government has to take their guns away for their own good?
lazs
lazs...I shoot at ranges when I travel to the US...that much is true (when in Rome..and all). If I had the desire to make this a serious hobby I am fully entitled to become a member of the rifle club...go up to the range and "plink" away. I have too much on the go right now to be bothered with it though.
The only thing I can't do is walk into a store and purchase a deadly weapon at will...or keep one at home. All weapons must stay at the club.
If it means that I don't have to worry about making sure my gun is loaded before I go to bed, or that my kids may have a horrible accident, I can live with this repressive style of government.
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I enjoy seeing Mike Moore, from time, to time. He is fat, and rather dim witted. The perfect image for an American leftie.
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curval... so you are saying that you can't be trusted to have a gun in your house because you are so careless and stupid that your children will be able to have an "accident'" with one? Are you saying that you simply drive over to the gun club and start banging away with .... with what? Seems you would have trouble getting guns and that then you would have a hard time getting to them and that all the red tape and expense would take the fun right out of it plus.... someone else would be in charge of your possesions. I don't have to go to a "club" to shoot and I can shoot any gun I own or borrow a friends. None of my kids have had "accidents" nor do I know of any that were killed accidentaly. I fail to see the problem... I think you are making it up....
lazs
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Ive had half a dozen episodes where Ive grabbed my pistol to investigate suspicious sounds outside my home -always at night.
Fortunately, its never been anything serious...just boys tapping on my daughters window at UNGODLY hours of the night (that crap stopped real fast) or animals getting into the trash.
But be forwarned, if your going to enter my home without permission, or try and rob my cars out front, Im going to point a loaded firearm at your worthless bellybutton and ask you if your time has finally come.
I refuse to become a victim of criminal intent and will use my capacity to defend myself, my family and my property with viscious certainty.
Nuff said :)
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Oh, you want to know why guns are illegal in Bermuda? My apologies, we are talking about a small and insignificant island here afterall so I shouldn't expect you to know any of the history....it is because even here there are nutcases!
In 1971 or 1972 (can't remmber exactly) the Governor was shot and killed. A body guard and even a dog died in the same attack. After that...no guns.
My Dad owned two rifles that he won in marksmanship at school in Canada. He kept them in his closet and he, like everyone else, either had to join the rifle club and keep them there, or turn them in.
Since that event, the subsequent arrest and hanging of the perpetrator, and the riots that followed that execution, Bermuda has had very little in the way of gun related crime. This is due to a strict "no gun" policy in law, unless in a gun club/range environment.
This is a small island though...not much else to shoot at except people really. The US is a different story. Hunting is something I can't do, but I respect the need/or desire to do so for example. What I think is getting out of hand is how far people take the whole right to arms in the US given all of the recent events, and the ease at which guns are availiable practically without restriction.
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Ooooh sounds all serious and stuff there Yeager.... but thank God the most it's ever come down to is chasing away yer daughter's boyfriends with loaded guns. LoL! Just takin' the piss... :)
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The string tied to the door handle and the other end ready to pull the trigger on the 12 gauge shotgun pointed at the door. We need more pictures of the sucka, or what's left, who forced the door open in the middle of the night. ;)
Thorns
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There have been numerous incidents in my life where either I or a close relative have needed a gun for self defense. I related several in this thread, http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=640060#post640060
and wont repeat them here, but there have been others.
One of our closest neighbors came home, smelled something funny, and became suspicious that there might be somebody in her house. She got her pistol and went to the bedroom. Whoever this was must have really smelled bad, because she became certain that he was in the closet from the smell. She yelled at him to come out, and fired a warning shot above the door. He bolted for the door and threw a hammer at here on the way out, cutting her head, but he kept on running. If she had not been armed who knows what might have happened. Again, calling the police isnt a good option when you live as far from town as we did.
As a boy, I often roamed the woods alone, it gave my parents better peace of mind I am sure, knowing that I was armed. Louisiana isnt a particularly dangerous place as far as wild animals are concerned, however there are exceptions.
Most people think of alligators, but they are mostly lazy critters, and there are only rare instances of people getting attacked by them, but I can tell you that it gives much comfort to be carrying a powerful weapon when you walk past a 12 foot long gator sunning himself on the bank of some waterhole.
We did have a lot of poisonous snakes too, and one of my best friends in college, and my grandmother both, have been bitten by poisonous snakes. I carried a gun around when hiking our land largely as protection against snakes, although a large stick works just as well for that purpose.
One of the most dangerous animals you can run into, ironically is wild dogs. There are numerous cases every year of people getting attacked, and even killed, by wild dogs. I have stumbled onto wild dogs in the woods before and have always been glad of being armed. These animals are smart, and if there are several of them, can be quite dangerous. Their fear of man is not high often times, and hunger can make them dangerous.
Even white-tailed deer can be dangerous, my junior year in college, a man was attacked and almost killed by a white-tailed buck near Minden, LA.
I frequently rode a horse in my outdoor ramblings, and after a horse fell on me one day, trapping my boot in the stirrup, then tried to drag me, I never rode unarmed again. One of the main reasons the cowboys of the old West carried pistols was to be able to shoot their mount, if their horse fell, and trapped their foot in the stirrup and started dragging them. That would be a horrible way to die.
Besides all the useful purposes of a gun in self defense from man and beast, hunting is an excellent way to provide for yourself. I didnt buy any meat all my senior year in college, due to my having a full freezer full of deer meat. When I was very young, my grandparents were about 90% self sufficient I would say. They had 3 gardens, beef and dairy cattle, chickens, and fruit trees. Thus there was never any need to buy eggs, milk, vegetables, some fruits, or meat. Deer and Squirrel meat was a common supplement to all this.
And for those people that do not need or desire to harvest their own meat, and for those that feel that they are safe and secure, in low crime areas, with policemen within easy call, target practice and shooting sports are legitimate and fun activities.
The bottom line is, people should have the right to choose if they wish to own guns or not. Just because you are afraid of guns, or do not like them for some reason, doesnt mean you should be able to dictate to others what they enjoy collecting or using for fun. And the right to self-defense is one of the most basic and fundamental of all human rights. It is an integral part of the rights to LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
I am one of those that sleeps with a loaded handgun under my pillow, and have for years now. It had never really occured to me that there might be people that would consider this strange until I read some of the things I see people posting in here. I think what is really important to realize is that if you think that is strange, you probably come from a completely different background and way of thinking than I and many other people do. That is why national laws aimed at gun control are a bad idea in my opinion. Gun control laws should be set at the local level. That way people in New York, can ban guns totally if they should desire to do so, and the people of the backwoods of northern Louisiana can continue living normally with our guns.
We dont need some idiot from D.C. trying to put some one-size-fits-all solution on the whole country, in some kneejerk, feel-good reaction to some nutcase's actions somewhere.
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Another situation I was once in that may seem a little more familiar to those of you that didnt grow up in rural areas: I was in New Orleans with my cousin one night, and he wanted to go take some pictures of Bourban Street. I didnt feel like fighting the crowds down there, so I let him out to take the pictures, and I went to fill the car up with gas.
The gas station where I went to fill up, had no public bathroom and I was feeling the need to go, so I started searching for another gas station. I wandered into a very rough area of New Orleans, not knowing my way around very well, and finally found a gas station that looked like a fortress. It had bars on the windows, bulletproof glass surrounding the cashiers and a security guard on duty.
Just as I pulled up, a kid comes running out, carrying a 12 pack of beer, and the security guard right behind him. The guard must have weighed about 300 pounds, and the kid was easily outrunning him. The guard saw me sitting there, and asked for a ride. I let him in and we followed the kid down the street from a distance. He slowed to a walk once he thought he was safe from pursuit, and we just hung back while the guard called the NOPD.
The kid led us into a REALLY REALLY BAD area of New Orleans. It was one of the worst areas I have ever seen, and I have seen some bad ones. We stopped at a 4 way stop sign, and the hair on the back of my neck started salamanderling. There were about a half dozen guys who looked fresh out of some gangster movie standing on the corner giving us the evil eye. They moved out like they were going to block the street, but then let us pass. The security guard was unarmed (how useless is an unarmed security guard) but fortunately my cousin is a police officer and had left a few handguns in the car, not to mention I had my own with me as well.
I was driving with my right hand, left hand on my 9mm, thinking how did I let myself get into this situation. I think what saved us from assault, was the fact that they may have thought we were police. I was wearing a blue jacket with the USAF emblem on it, which looked like a police jacket with badge on casual inspection, and the security guard was in a police-looking uniform. Once past the gangbangers, we lost no time in clearing the area back to the convenience store.
Police didnt arrive for about 3 more minutes, and when they did they were quite unconcerned over the theft of a case of beer, in a city that often has a murder a day. I consider that situation the closest I have been to an actual firefight, and the feel of the wooden grips of my Taurus PT-92 was the warmest sensation you can possibly imagine in that situation.
In retrospect, going down into that area wasnt the smartest thing to do, but I didnt realize how bad it was until it was too late, and we were in the heart of the bad area. If things had gone sour, my first priority would have been exiting the area at all costs, not trying to have some kind of crazy John Wayne shootout, like so many of the gun control advocates seem to think we are all looking for. I would have used the car as a weapon, and used all possibles avenues of escape before resorting to gunfire.
However, we were quite effectively trapped into this area, and if they had chosen to try to prevent our departure with violence, it is quite conceivable that we would have had to shoot our way out. The security guard, who was from this area, was extremely nervous, which is another indication of how bad the situation really was, even though it may not sound that bad just from reading it. You would have had to have been there and seen that these were no kidding bona fide bad guys, to understand the true seriousness of it.
Thankfully this incident ended like all others I have been involved in, peacefully. One of these days, however, perhaps I will not be so fortunate, and if that day ever comes, I will be ready for it, and being an armed citizen, may just be able to ruin the whole day for some crook.
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My last post with gun stories for now, I swear........... just wanted to make sure that people understand that there are cases out there of self-defense, even though the media seems not to report on them all that much. In fact we just had a case here in Pensacola where a man shot an armed intruder in his house, wounding him badly.
I could tell dozens of stories like the ones I have told in this thread and the other one, but I will stop with two final stories, about 2 similar situations, one where the person was unarmed and one where the person was armed. I know the people that are in both of these stories well.
The first person lived in Monroe, LA and answered a knock on his door late one night. He went to the door, but nobody was there. Just then he heard a knock on his back door. Once again, nobody was at the door when he went to it. Finally, he heard a knock at the front door again. He opened the door to see a man standing there with a sawed off shotgun. The man fired the shotgun at him at point blank range, then fled. The only thing that saved this man's life was the screen door which had a metal crossbar about halfway up that took most of the shot. Nonetheless, he was filled with shot, and spent quite some time in the hospital from this incident. Police concluded that it must have been a drug hit that went to the wrong address.
The second person was a Louisiana State Trooper, and opened the door to go to work one day to see a person standing nearby with a shotgun pointed at him. Showing incredible presence of mind and speed, he drew his service pistol and fired on the man, killing him. I dont remember why the man targeted him, if it was simply because he was a police officer, or if he wanted revenge on him in particular from some earlier arrest or something perhaps, but being armed saved his life that day.
I know 3 people personally, just off the top of my head who have killed in self defense. Besides these 3, like I said, I could relate dozens of stories where people used guns in self defense scenarios that did not end in bloodshed. I believe the ones given so far should suffice, and y'all are probably tired or reading my ramblings by now anyway, so I will post no more anecdotes on this subject for now.
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Heh wow... That nawleans story brought back memories... Yeah it's a messed up place as well as fun.
We just finished playing a show and ended up at some after hours party in a bar. Our bass player get's a little too drunk and a little too tired decides to go back to this humongous Snap-On Tools truck we used for touring in. We built bunks in the back, and he was crashed out there. Then he wakes up... the truck is moving'. "Drew" he says, "stop man you're too drunk to drive". It's a loud vehicle to drive in. No response.
He wanders up to the front and there's this black guy he doesn't recognize drivin' it. He freaks out and says something stupid like "Hey!" The driver turns around, sees John, bolts over to the side door where the passenger seat is and jumps out. On the freeway. John regained control of the truck, drove it back to the party, got us out to explain it and then broke down into tears.
He quit the band and was on a plane back to Jersey the very next day. Totally rattled him. I don't blame him. If he had woken up after the truck had been pulled into the chop shop (or whatever) he'd prolly be dead.
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Its ok nash. They learned a real damned fine lesson in life:
Dont diddly with daddies girls...heheh
And as far as the dogs are concerned: The only reason I didnt shoot the damned things was because it would wake the neighbors ;)
Serioulsy, Im so glad I at least had the ability to deal with any problems. Theres nothin compared to being capable of takin care of busniess if push comes to shove.
I also own a few real nice shoulder fired weapons.
If the need ever arises I will be there.
Lastly, all the folks that clamour for gun confiscation will be the last in line to do so. Kinda weak asking for something then expecting others to do the dirty work.....I feel sorry for those with badges going door to door. Will be ugly.
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And Toad goes right ahead and proves my point.
:D
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I caught some woman in my hotel room once and thank God I had my gun cause I saw something resembling a gun barrel in her hand. I pulled my gun and emptied the clip in her chest, and discovered that she'd appearently stolen the maid's uniform and what I thought was a gun barrel was really the handle of her feather duster.
Being from out of state and not wanting to answer a lot of questions to the local police I stashed her body in the dirty linen hamper, checked out and left.
I was glad of two things that day- one, that I had used a stolen credit card to rent the room so the cops never got me, and two, that I was carrying my gun that day...Who knows what might have happened if I had left it at home? I could have gotten dusted.
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Originally posted by Airhead
"Deterence" implies "pervention" and a concealed weapon isn't a deterrant at all- it's an equalizer. You want deterance? Get a dog- a big one that bites. I guarantee nobody will attempt to break into your house while he's on duty, nobody will try to carjack you if he's in it with you and you won't be robbed walking down the street if he's on a leash. I'll guarantee you I'd whether rely on my dog to deal with an intruder than have to shoot some kid, but that's just me.
But what if your dog attacks and mauls a kid to death?
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Originally posted by Airhead
I caught some woman in my hotel room once and thank God I had my gun cause I saw something resembling a gun barrel in her hand. I pulled my gun and emptied the clip in her chest, and discovered that she'd appearently stolen the maid's uniform and what I thought was a gun barrel was really the handle of her feather duster.
Being from out of state and not wanting to answer a lot of questions to the local police I stashed her body in the dirty linen hamper, checked out and left.
I was glad of two things that day- one, that I had used a stolen credit card to rent the room so the cops never got me, and two, that I was carrying my gun that day...Who knows what might have happened if I had left it at home? I could have gotten dusted.
ROFL!!! You card, you! :)
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actually... concealed carry can and is a deterance... Florida has very civilized, generous concealed carry laws. As the number of concealed carry permits went up.... the number of violent crimes went down.. criminals are not only not masterminds but they are allso very cowardly.
I would allso contend that school yard killers are quite cowardly and that if they and everyone else knew that say 10% of the teachers and staff were likeleyu to be carrying concealed guns that it would prevent most school shootings. right now... the way the law is... It is like letting wolves loose in the bunny hutch.
bermuda... no... I see your point... one person being killed is plenty good reason to take away the rights of everyone else.. Now it will be impossible for you to head the siren song of the gun and start killing people. Congrats... you have been protected from yourself.
Gun clubs? no... I don't rent a home. I don't want someone telling me they changed their mind and I can't live there anymore. I don't want to go to the "gun club" and be told "no... the law changed.. you can't shoot your gun anymore.. go home and be thankful like that nice spook lad in aussie land".
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
bermuda... no... I see your point... one person being killed is plenty good reason to take away the rights of everyone else.. Now it will be impossible for you to head the siren song of the gun and start killing people. Congrats... you have been protected from yourself.
Gun clubs? no... I don't rent a home. I don't want someone telling me they changed their mind and I can't live there anymore. I don't want to go to the "gun club" and be told "no... the law changed.. you can't shoot your gun anymore.. go home and be thankful like that nice spook lad in aussie land".
lazs
I haven't been protected from myself...I've been protected from gun-toting idiots that want to shoot people.
Lazs, I don't doubt that you are a person who treats guns with respect and handlle them accordingly. Unfortunately, I don't have the same trust in others around me, either in the US or here on the island.
You claim, it seems, that your "freedom" might be violated without the right to own a gun..and shoot it whenever you want. That is simply not true. I would love to see what would happen if you fired one of those hand-cannons you own in, or around a city, such as New York. Discharging a weapon in public could well land you in jail. So you are NOT free to just "plink" away whenever you feel like it. You MUST go to a controlled environment..such as a range to shoot..unless you live in the boonies and there is no-one around to tell you what you can and cannot do.
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So anyone wanna explain why violent crime has risen over the past year? Do ya think it was due to Ashcroft's stand on guns and gun control? I mean, saying crime has dropped in areas with concealed carry laws has just as much validity as saying crime has risen since Ashcroft became AG due to his stance on guns.
Cause and effect.....
Cause and effect.....
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Crimes per 100,000 population Natl. average Los Angeles, CA Miami, FL
Those concealed carry laws sure do work goooood!
http://www.bestplaces.net/html/crimecompare3.asp?lcity=8381&rcity=8735&view=T
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You can't make judgement from one state Midnight (especially when you consider the immigration of Florida in the last 20 years)
Do it nationally, think you'd find slightly different results. ;)
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Funny Rip, are you saying that there has been less immigration to California?.... ROFL
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Originally posted by midnight Target
So anyone wanna explain why violent crime has risen over the past year?
Malcolm also offers a revealing comparison of the experience in England experience with that in the modern United States. Today Americans own some 200 million guns and have seen eight consecutive years of declining violence, while the English--prohibited from carrying weapons and limited in their right to self-defense have suffered a dramatic increase in rates of violent crime.
"Guns and Violence, The English Experience"
Joyce Lee Malcom, Harvard University Press
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/MALGUN.html
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Funny Rip, are you saying that there has been less immigration to California?.... ROFL
One only has to look at the cultural differences ;)
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Crime rises for first time in a decade (http://www.msnbc.com/news/827342.asp)
I guess you missed this little item last week.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
One only has to look at the cultural differences ;)
HUH!?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Crime rises for first time in a decade (http://www.msnbc.com/news/827342.asp)
I guess you missed this little item last week.
an increase that coincided with an economic downturn that many experts say played a key role. Murder, armed robbery, rape and burglary all were higher in 2001
Yep, all legal gun owners too I'll bet! ROTFLOL!
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hardly mt. In fact... the fact that violent crimes have increased overall (debateable) but decreased where more enlightened firearms concealed carry laws are would tend to prove that... as lott says.... "more guns..less crime".
curval... America is not bermuda. taking away my gun is not going to stop the D.C. sniper or even stop the vast majority of firearms deaths in America (criminals shooting other criminals). It will either disarm me or make me a criminal tho. I trust my neighbors I don't know why you don't. Bermuda must be a terrible place if you need the govenment to protect you from each other.... if the only thing that keeps people from killing each other is to confiscate firearms.
I can shoot anywhere I want if I use common sense. I can't fire up a chainsaw in a theatre either.. Can't use a jackhammer in church... Can't fire up an arc welder without sheilding it. I can fire a gun at an intruder in my house tho. I can clean and work on my firearms in my house... I can reload ammo in my house. These things are fun to me and I would not deny them to others. I would not personaly deny these things to convicted felons who have served their time either.
I have no right to tell you that you have to have a gun but am more than uncomfortable in telling you that you can't. I wish you would show me the same courtesy and quit hiding behind some bogus reason for wanting to take away my freedom.
lazs
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...taking away my gun is not going to stop the D.C. sniper ...
Not to mention the fact that the DC snipers were not allowed to own guns in the first place.
ra
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Once again the point was completely missed by Ripsnort in his haste to post.
Do ya have proof that concealed carry laws reduce crime? Or do you have non-connected statistics that seem to be related but may not be?
My point was that while crime went up under Asscroft, it may not have been due to Asscroft. While crime went down in Florida (evidence please) it may not be due to gun laws.
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Originally posted by ra
Not to mention the fact that the DC snipers were not allowed to own guns in the first place.
ra
Are you saying they broke the law?
Unbelieveable! What some criminals will do!!!
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I agree you have the right to keep and bear arms, as guaranteed by the Second Amendment- however, there is no constitutional guarantee to the improved technology that has made firearms more lethal. I propose privately owned firearms be confined to the technology available in the late 1700s- IE, flintlocks.
A good marksman only needs one bullet to shoot an intruder anyway, it will even the playing field for hunted animals and will put us in touch with the trials and tribulations faced by our ancestors. I also think there should be no restrictions on our flintlocks and we should be allowed to carry our guns in public like we currently carry our tomahawks and sabres.
Ideas, anyone? Personally I think it's one of my better ones- a true win-win for both sides of the arguement.
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airhead... good point but... flintlocks were not mentioned by the founding fathers. What was mentiond was that the militia provide their own arms of current style. Using your logic we should all carry the latest version of the M16 with 3 round burst capacity and beretta 9mm (i will petition to use my old fasioned 44mag tho).
Fine with me... How bout you guys?
lazs
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..and extending this logic, the First Amendment Free Speech protections should "be confined to the technology available in the late 1700s".
Right?
:D
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Originally posted by lazs2
curval... America is not bermuda. taking away my gun is not going to stop the D.C. sniper or even stop the vast majority of firearms deaths in America (criminals shooting other criminals). It will either disarm me or make me a criminal tho. I trust my neighbors I don't know why you don't. Bermuda must be a terrible place if you need the govenment to protect you from each other.... if the only thing that keeps people from killing each other is to confiscate firearms.
I can shoot anywhere I want if I use common sense. I can't fire up a chainsaw in a theatre either.. Can't use a jackhammer in church... Can't fire up an arc welder without sheilding it. I can fire a gun at an intruder in my house tho. I can clean and work on my firearms in my house... I can reload ammo in my house. These things are fun to me and I would not deny them to others. I would not personaly deny these things to convicted felons who have served their time either.
I have no right to tell you that you have to have a gun but am more than uncomfortable in telling you that you can't. I wish you would show me the same courtesy and quit hiding behind some bogus reason for wanting to take away my freedom.
lazs
My friend..your "freedom" is a farce. The most omnipotent organisation in the world is in america...namely the IRS. They know all about you...and if they feel you haven't "pinked" up the correct amount...you go to jail. I have no such restriction of my freedom to conduct business.
Bermuda is a GREAT place. It must be...we have a whole lot of u.s. companies with head-offices here...maybe you should check with them as to why they choose to live and work here. I can tell you one..it is a nice safe place to bring up kids. No guns in the hands of crazed snipers, or rogue day traders. Others might also include such things as..great golf courses, nice weather, clear unpolluted water..I could go on and on.
You trust your neigboors...but yet you carry a gun to protect yourself against them. Odd.
Taking away your guns will turn you into a crimminal...why?
You cannot shoot where you want...even with common sense. Your country has LAWS that say you cannot fire a weapon within city limits..for example.
Does sitting at home cleaning your guns really "do it for you" as much as you say? I find this odd....but maybe that is just me.
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Originally posted by lazs2
hardly mt. In fact... the fact that violent crimes have increased overall (debateable)
Oh this ought to be good. Go ahead, debate it. Tell us how a bigger number is actually a smaller number.
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Why is everybody worried what we do in our country?
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thrawn... all crime and especially violent crime has gone down every year for a decade or more with this one very small blip.... even at that.... crime is not "up" from any year past except the previous one. Not much to base anything on. we still have a huge decrease form the rate of 10 years ago. Firearms accidents continue to go down per capita.
curval... I agree with you on the IRS thing. many are working to abolish or at least reform it. I am not a fan of the IRS but I do realize that our rates are lower than any socialist country.. You are also correct that it is illegal in most states to fire a gun within city limits except in case of self defense or at a range. That is common sense and courtesy to me. and... In a country as large as this... not a problem. Cleaning my guns at home is a convienience for me. Working on them and reloading are hobbies I enjoy. Clear?
I trust my neigbors. I don't trust criminals tho and we have an abundance here.... big country. I don't see how taking away my guns is going to make our criminals less dangerous or make me any safer from them.
A criminal with a gun in bermuda would have to be on crazy mother... I mean criminals are dumb but... even they can see it's an island right?
lazs
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monk.... i believe that a lot of it is simple envy. I mean.... what is the REAL threat that us having freedom to own firearms poses to the subjects of the UK?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
curval... I agree with you on the IRS thing. many are working to abolish or at least reform it. I am not a fan of the IRS but I do realize that our rates are lower than any socialist country.. You are also correct that it is illegal in most states to fire a gun within city limits except in case of self defense or at a range. That is common sense and courtesy to me. and... In a country as large as this... not a problem. Cleaning my guns at home is a convienience for me. Working on them and reloading are hobbies I enjoy. Clear?
I trust my neigbors. I don't trust criminals tho and we have an abundance here.... big country. I don't see how taking away my guns is going to make our criminals less dangerous or make me any safer from them.
A criminal with a gun in bermuda would have to be on crazy mother... I mean criminals are dumb but... even they can see it's an island right?
lazs
My last comment regarding the cleaning of your guns was a cheap shot...I take it back.
Did I see you say that you agree with me on something? My GOD! It's true. ;)
As I said before, and in other posts...I am not suggesting that guns be banned in the US. All I said was that it scares me (someone from an innocent little island 1,000 miles from anywhere) that they are so readily availiable in the States and that it really doesn't surprise me that you have all the gun-related crime in the US because of that.
..and yea, a crimminal with a gun here IS stupid (pre 1971 OR post 1971) given that this place is so small.
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So the small blip is due to the economy.... but the 10 year decrease is due to .... concealed carry laws..... I get it.
(picture great big rolleyes here)
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mt... i don't know what the blip is due to and don't make any claims to. You are the one who is stupid enough to find some kind of cause and effect relationship in an anomoly. The thing that is not debateable is that the more guns and the more easy access to them in a state the less crime. The more oppressive the gun laws the more increase that state has in crime. I could very easily say that the fact that the country has gotten more strict gun laws like triggert locks and regetration hassles etc.... is the reason that crime is up "cause and effect" as you say but.... I'm not prepared to do that ....... yet.
curval.. admittedly... I don't know anything about your tax structure. How does your govenment get paid? How are sevices paid for? basicly.... How are you taxed?
lazs
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When you go shoot in the middle of no where, lol where is that? Know of anyplace withen two hours of the bay area?
Hey what club where you in! :)
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mt... i don't know what the blip is due to and don't make any claims to. You are the one who is stupid enough to find some kind of cause and effect relationship in an anomoly. The thing that is not debateable is that the more guns and the more easy access to them in a state the less crime. The more oppressive the gun laws the more increase that state has in crime.
Stupid is as stupid does. Maybe you should go back to reading comprehension class. My post was all about the lack of cause and effect evidence.
And speaking of evidence, you continuously claim that less restrictive gun laws lead to reduced crime. ......
Prove it.
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Originally posted by lazs2
curval.. admittedly... I don't know anything about your tax structure. How does your govenment get paid? How are sevices paid for? basicly.... How are you taxed?
lazs
Virtually everything that is consumed, on this island is imported from overseas. When goods arrive on-island they are assesed "duty" on the value paid in the country of origin.
Boil it down and what do you have? A consumption based tax system. If you buy it..you pay tax on it. The tax, or more accurately "duty" is hidden in the cost of that good on its pricetag.
EVERYTHING is expensive obviously.
This is how most of the government revenue is earned. There are a few others:
Tourists are assessed an arrival tax of $60 per head on cruise ships...$40 departure tax on air passengers. Hotels charge an occupancy tax..which is paid over to government also.
There are also real estate taxes, which are based on a set ARV (annual rental value) figures, on a square foot basis of ownership.
High net worth people who buy houses here must pay a fee to government of 20% of the value of the home. (Many thanks Ross Perot, Michael Douglas, Michael Bloomberg etc.)
On the corporate side there is an annual government fee to be paid...and payroll taxes.
No income tax...corporate or personal.
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There are a few questions I'd like to ask of our anti-gun friends.
1. Do you believe citizens have a right to use deadly force in defense of family and self?
2. Do you believe the use of violence in defence of one's self is anti-social?
3. Would you consider the inclination to use deadly force against a violent attack to be a "natural" instinct?
4. Would you be content to submit passively to a violent assault or rape?
5. Do you consider a violent attacker's right to life to be the same as your own?
6. When you become a senior citizen, will you be content to allow violent criminals to determine not only where you will live, but HOW you will lead your life?
7. Do you seriously believe that the present benevolent attitude of our government will endure indefinitely? Is there any chance of it morphing, over time, into repressive, genocidal dictatorship? Do you think you will be able to recognize that change when it comes, creeping up on us a step at a time?
8. If our government should, someday, become repressive or genocidal, will you consider it your task to resist, violently if necessary? Or will you leave that to someone else? How would such resistance, necessary tho it may be, be possible if the citizenry has been disarmed?
You have a responsibility to defend yourself against crime and oppression, whether you are willing to admit it or not.
Regards, Shuckins
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Ok... thanks... not a very workable solution for here tho I don't think. I think you probly end up paying more of your income (having less to spend) than we do it would appear. I certainly wouldn't mind a tax on all consumables with the IRS out of the picture. I think if people seen a more direct cause and effect relationship they might be less likely to vote in expensive programs.
lazs
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Source: Texas Department of Public Safety, Uniform Crime Reports (UCR).
Year Number Rate per 100,000 Number Rate per 100,000
1980 869,439 6135.7 77,866 549.5
1981 891,549 6042.4 78,443 531.7
1982 962,260 6297.5 88,101 576.6
1983 928,827 5907.1 80,536 512.2
1984 964,014 6029.2 80,732 505.0
1985 1,075,656 6570.9 90,052 550.1
1986 1,235,834 7408.2 109,927 658.9
1987 1,296,829 7724.3 105,980 631.3
1988 1,345,688 8019.6 109,534 652.7
1989 1,346,846 7926.8 111,870 658.3
1990 1,329,339 7825.9 129,345 761.5
1991 1,356,451 7818.0 145,718 839.9
1992 1,245,897 7056.5 142,353 806.3
1993 1,160,932 6438.5 137,428 762.1
1994 1,079,340 5873.0 129,842 706.5
1995 1,064,362 5684.5 124,263 663.7
1996 1,091,878 5708.3 123,218 644.2
1997 1,064,914 5478.2 117,087 602.3
1998 1,009,868 5110.7 111,577 564.7
1999 1,009,253 5035.2 112,436 561.0
2000 1,032,670 4952.4 113,605 544.8
2001 1,098,738 5152.3 122,073 572.4
Overall Crime Rate Violent Crime Rate[list=1]
[/list=1]
Concealed carry law passed in 1995. If the list thing dosent work, the number on the far right is what you are looking for.
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Taiwan (where gun possession is a capital offense) has a higher murder rate than the U.S.; and why is South Africa's rate twice that of the U.S., despite some of the world's strictest anti-gun laws?
I dont belive there is any relationship between gun laws, and crime rates. It only matters to the individual, if he finds himself/herself in desperate need of a weapon.
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Originally posted by Toad
..and extending this logic, the First Amendment Free Speech protections should "be confined to the technology available in the late 1700s".
Right?
:D
Toad, do great minds think alike or WHAT?? I come up with a great idea and you come in and bolster it!
The two worst things that have happened to America are automatic weapons and mass media being used by political candidates. I think it would be great if we limited freedom speech to print media and soap boxes and banned ALL "free speech" lies told by snake oil sales people on television and radio ads.
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well... there is some merit to your idea on free speech airhead.. I don't read newspapers or watch TV news so I really don't see why anyone else needs to... I also think such behavior is the cause of a lot of problems in the world today.
lazs
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Thanks easymo,
Looks like the rate dropped pretty steadily starting in 1992.
I agree, doesn't seem to be any correlation with the concealed carry law.
Probably due to the economy.
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lazs, that's Toad's idea which on the surface seems silly, but actually has some merit. How "progressive" has progress been? Our elected officials are voted in based upon who can take the most bribes, which buys the most airtime and affords the nastiest, most devious political consultant who puts together a 60 second TV byte attacking his opponet, making knowingly false and misleading accusations of graft and/or miscreant moral conduct, all to lead to the final seven syllable slogan that, no matter what it says- "blah blah BLAH blah blah blah blah"...or "blah blah BLAH? blah blah blah blah"...or, my favorite, "blah blah. Blah blah BLAH blah blah."- it's all horseshit perpertrated by media hype and a population that is a combination equal parts self absorbed, equal parts apathetic and equal parts stupid.
I mean, who needs to look at THAT crap every November? The modern day politician believes we are only one or two more rules and laws away from forming a perfect Utopian society, and THEY are the only ones qualified to lead us so boldly into the future. Take them off TV and put on more cool movies like Flying Tigers or Flying Leathernecks or A Clockwork Orange. They are all a bunch of damned liars anyway.
Toad is right, our founding fathers never could have dreamed politics would sink to such depths any more than they ever thought we'd have 30 round magazines on a "defensive" weapon. Rolling back technology as it applies to our rights is not a bad idea. Once again, Toad and I are in agreement. :D
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Accidental Gun Death Rate
Aged 1 - 5
California
2.21e-6
Texas
4.19e-6
hmmmmm?
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Originally posted by H. Godwineson
There are a few questions I'd like to ask of our anti-gun friends.
1. Do you believe citizens have a right to use deadly force in defense of family and self?
2. Do you believe the use of violence in defence of one's self is anti-social?
3. Would you consider the inclination to use deadly force against a violent attack to be a "natural" instinct?
4. Would you be content to submit passively to a violent assault or rape?
5. Do you consider a violent attacker's right to life to be the same as your own?
6. When you become a senior citizen, will you be content to allow violent criminals to determine not only where you will live, but HOW you will lead your life?
7. Do you seriously believe that the present benevolent attitude of our government will endure indefinitely? Is there any chance of it morphing, over time, into repressive, genocidal dictatorship? Do you think you will be able to recognize that change when it comes, creeping up on us a step at a time?
8. If our government should, someday, become repressive or genocidal, will you consider it your task to resist, violently if necessary? Or will you leave that to someone else? How would such resistance, necessary tho it may be, be possible if the citizenry has been disarmed?
You have a responsibility to defend yourself against crime and oppression, whether you are willing to admit it or not.
Regards, Shuckins
I'm not anti-gun, but I'll play.
1. Deadly force is predicated on the percieved harm. No real yes or no answer there. If you feel your life is in danger then sure.
2. Violence is always antisocial. This does not mean that is is always avoidable.
3. Against a violent attack? I think it is natural to do whatever is necessary to survive. That may or may not involve deadly force.
4. No... duh!
5. Yes, I'm not God, nor can I decide who has a right to live or die. This has no bearing on the level of protection I might provide myself or my family though.
6. They do that now. I don't want to live in high crime areas, do you? What's your point?
7. Nothing is indefinite. I would die to preserve my freedoms, and I will continue to advocate for them.
8. Too silly
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mt... what are you saying? that 4.1 out of 6 accidental deaths of children in texas are from firearms? that 2.2 out of 6 in california are? I couldn't follow your stats.
In any case...I don't think that accidents or even murder rates should have anything to do with my second amendment rights.. they are legal issues on a case by case basis.
guns prevent over a millon crimes a year. if cost of life and crime are your only prerequisits for gun laws then you out to get out and abolish a bunch right now. The sooner yu get on it the more good you will do... If not for me....
do it for the children.
lazs
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sorry MT there are no DOJ stats for 1 to 5 age gun deaths, you had a bad dream thats all.
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Originally posted by batdog
Curval..you dont understand what I'm getting at or trying anyway. The USA isnt a European nation. Our people DO NOT think like yours. We DO NOT have the same history you do. Your a people who accepted that it was some guys right to rule you because he got to waer that pointy hat thingy called a crown and SWORE up and down that God justified his rule as being right.
We on the other hand get sick at the tough of some fat inbred guy saying he has the right to govern us.
This lead to something called our revolution w/intern brought about our constitution.
Once again... if we COMPROMISE our constitution in one area we might as well go back to that fat inbred guy w/the shiney pointy hat thingy telling us what to do again. And let me tell you..Americans simply dont bend those knees very well.
xBAT
LOL
We ditched the divine rule of Kings a long time ago, before your revolution. And make no mistake, you also have a ruling class - they may not be royalty, but they are the best you can do.
Hell your presidents daddy was president, and he may not be inbred as much as the European Royals (god knows they are a bunch of chinless bananas) but he's no high watt bulb either.
Christ, your constitution is just a rip off from a bunch of deluded french idealist philosophers, and is utterly unworkable anyway.
Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (through superior firepower).
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I own a non-gun .
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"Christ, your constitution is just a rip off from a bunch of deluded french idealist philosophers, and is utterly unworkable anyway.
Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (through superior firepower).
__________________
bounder "
Hmm... seems to have worked pretty well so far. Look at all the envy out there. hell just read the boards.. You guys in the socialist countries don't care about guns other than the fact that you are simply jealous of our freedom... if you can't have em then by gawd... no one can. and damn the facts. As our economy grows and yours shrinks I can only point out whose constitution is unworkable... sheesh... next your gonna lose Scotland and then you will have to build walls around the little island just to keep people in.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
__________________
Hmm... seems to have worked pretty well so far. Look at all the envy out there. hell just read the boards.. You guys in the socialist countries don't care about guns other than the fact that you are simply jealous of our freedom... if you can't have em then by gawd... no one can. and damn the facts. As our economy grows and yours shrinks I can only point out whose constitution is unworkable... sheesh... next your gonna lose Scotland and then you will have to build walls around the little island just to keep people in.
lazs
Yup!
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Im of the opinion that sometimes you boys use the Constitution as an excuse to disguise what really amounts to the macho image of being a gun owner. Even in the burbs where your never going to hunt buck or bear, you must have Dirty Harrys Magnum in the guise of protecting your families cause it doesnt shrink in the shower.
:p
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Thus, I'm wonderin' what alla the gun hoopla is about. And I'm askin', is your world a whole lot different than mine? Are your homes getting invaded? Are your friend's homes getting invaded? Co-workers?
Never happened to me at home Nash, but multiple times at work. Does work not count?
Let's see, here in "peace loving" Canada, in the last 3 months, I've had a: A friend, John Fullerton, shot and killed in a robbery, b: A friend, a cop, victim of a home invasion, c: A friend, a police officer, help up at his 2nd job and shot in the leg (Phil Harnois, P+D Enterprises Edmonton 3 weeks ago). In the last few years, I've had a: A good friend of my fiancee's who works next door to her killed (Tara McDonald, yes, the one who spurred on the new national working at night rules), at LEAST 5 people I know the victim of brutal assaults, and 1 of those a fatality.
I know what you're trying to say Nash, but it's BS. Canada sucks as much as the USA for violence, the difference being, as Rude so aptly put it, he can own a firearm for defence if he so chooses, and we can't.
I know some guys in the leaf game out in your neck of the woods Nash, they say that violence amoung people in that field of endeavour is at an all time high, especially amoungst the asian and east Indian factions. How often do you think those guys hit the wrong house, and wind up messing with some civilians? Why not call up Vancouver PD or the RCMP and ask. I already know the answer, I'd just like you to know it too.
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Well... I'll say up front that I suck at math and am little better in figuring out statistics. But I checked some numbers for your city, Calgary (http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/011031/d011031b.htm) and came up with this:
(stats for 2000 were all I could find, but I can't imagine there being a great difference now).
There were 16 homicides in Calgary in 2000.
17% of all homicides were at the hands of a stranger (they say that stat hasn't changed in 10 years).
33% of all homicides involved a gun.
The population of Calgary in 2000 was 850,000.
Thus in 2000 you had a 0.000001056% chance of being killed by a stranger with a gun (I'm gonna assume that people aren't buying guns here to protect themselves from family members.)
You could probably lessen that chance if you lived in Oakridge and not Forest Lawn (you know what I'm sayin'), weren't involved in the drug trade, prostitution etc.
I lived in Calgary for 6 years.... never felt the need to arm myself. Never felt the need to arm myself in NYC for that matter and I lived in a couple of dicey areas. But as far as Calgary goes, I don't think there's much difference in our experience other than the fact that your friends work in gun stores and are cops. You're probably gonna have a different perspective on it, however. But for the average Calgarian, guns and home protection and alla that... it's just not something to get worked up over.
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Spook! -
Im of the opinion that sometimes you boys use the Constitution as an excuse to disguise what really amounts to the macho image of being a gun owner. Even in the burbs where your never going to hunt buck or bear, you must have Dirty Harrys Magnum in the guise of protecting your families cause it doesnt shrink in the shower.
I laughed so hard when I read this that my girlfriend came down to see what was happening. She read it and she laughed too. :D Priceless.
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Non-owner here, and even if I could get something worth having, I wouldn't bother because I'm not interested in guns. It's not just ME that can't buy a handgun. None of the village knobheads round here can buy one either, so I relax at nights. Effectively, my house bears a virtual sign which says "Owner is unarmed" because none of the houses round here is armed and none needs to be.
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Homocides stayed pretty steady in Canada last year, as it has for the previous two years. If fact stats are a hell of a lot better the they were in the 70's and 80's (same as Texas strangely ;) ).
http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/020925/d020925b.htm
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Heh... homicides in Calgary dropped from a whopping 16 in 2000 to 15....fifteen.... in 2001... despite its population growing from 850,000 to 950,000 in that year.
Good thing yer loaded fer bear in that neck of the woods there Gman (Gunman?). Ya never know. :D
It's strange to me though.
The guys *with* the guns... the things that are supposed to make ya feel safe... come across as the most frightened. Isn't it supposed to be the other way around?
No gun here.... and I feel fine. :)
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Nash. That's interesting that you and Gman live in Canada but have opposing viewpoints. And you both live or lived in Calgary?
It's morning here. Just got up after another night's peaceful sleep in my unarmed home. Still grinning at Spook's comment. :D
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The whole thing is a bit of a joke I think. Gun owners calling people who don't own them paranoid, while they calculate shotgun dispersion in a hallway.
Weigh that against another thread by Rip calling for people to post signs in their yard about it.... and have you seen Rip's yard? His house? Invasion by wasps, tops. Unless he has a daughter like Yeager... then he gets to chase her boyfriends around with one. :)
It's the gun owners who post gun related threads. It's the radio talk-show guys who get a rise outta the gun owners who call in. Gun owners love the issue I think because the issue is part and parcel of their hobby.
You can't exactly bring a gun to show and tell. And that's gotta be frustrating. But, having a gun is.... very neat and everything and I just GOTSTA let ya know.
So I'll make a nifty post about something like being shot at 5 times or shooting at a mace can with my shirt off and if anyone has anything to say about it like BACK THE shreck OFF because just LOOK at the Constitution and my god there were FIFTEEN MURDERS here this year!
Whatever. Enjoy your guns. They can be cool for alotta things. Mostly they're just silly.
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...and some people even claim that the more guns there are, the safer we'll be. Could I extrapolate further, and say that the world as a whole would be safer if more countries had nuclear warheads with a range of thousands of miles? :rolleyes:
I pretty much agree with you, Nash. It'a all a load of bollocks. But when an unfortunate event takes place in which a dozen or two innocent people/children are killed by a gun-crazed madman, we get the pro-gun catch-all disclaimer trotted out time after time: "Guns don't kill people. Only people kill people." But for the tragic loss of innocent lives, that statement would be hilarious.
If all the money that has been spent purchasing the 200 million privately owned guns in the US had been spent on beefing up law enforcement, then we would see a major reduction in US crime.
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What's truly funny is the "Guns are bad, mmm-kay" support group that you guys seem to have going on here.
The U.S. was built under the idea of the people having the right to defend themselves. I'm sorry that the citizens of your country never had that right or had it removed. You'll probably never really miss it until that dark day when its actually needed.
AKDejaVu
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Ahh! The cockiness and self-assurance of youth! So many studly young men, who need only their fists or a ball bat to protect them and theirs.
What will you do when you become septuagenarians? Be content to live in enclosed communities where someone else provides protection?
Regards, Shuckins
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Yes, Deja, you have it.
The "guns = bad" pronouncements from those that have never used them correctly or, indeed, have never used them at all makes me smile.
I'm almost not sure how to characterize it.
"25 Year old McAllan = bad" After all, folks get drunk, drive and kill people.
"Cuban cigar after a fine meal = bad". After all, smoking kills millions more than guns.
Oh, wait... guns are only meant to kill, so THAT = bad. Now's theres a deep, well-thought out rationalization. :D
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untill the human animal is fixed it is probly not prudent to take away the means for the weak to defend themselves against the strong and the ruthless.
I believe that a lot of our socialist friends here are in that situation and that their people have been fixed... in much the way that my cat was fixed. That is probly why they are so facinated about U.S. sexual organs.
More guns does equal less crime. The vast majority of gun owners do not comit crime... with guns or without. They prevent it. Gun ownership is a deterent. I am glad my neighbors have guns. I would like teachers to be armed and airline pilots to be armed.... I would like to know that a percentage of the people in the resteraunt or theatre that I was in were aremed.... and not just the criminals.
As for other countries? do as you please. Argue here if you like but... if you come armed with only how you "feel" don't get pissy when you are shot down (pardon the expression). I bet I know more about firearms than the guy who wrote your laws.... I know I know more than the guys making ours.
I would say... Living in fear is a bad thing. I don't think wearing a seatbelt is really "living in fear" and I don't think owning a firearm is "living in fear". Guns are win win.... Only an idiot would disarm himself in order to protect himself from tyranny from within or without.
lazs
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You know, I'm still trying to figure out why all these Foreign Fellas
don't like our.............ahh, never mind.
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Oh, and by the way...gun owners are not paranoid. Think of us as realists. By contrast, our opponents are starry-eyed idealists.
Regards, Shuckins
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monk... they are jealous and spiteful. Becomeing a socialist makes you effeminate. You take on a lot of womanly logic.
lazs
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Shhhhh..........Lazs, I know you know, I just want to here it from some of our foreign fellas.
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Last I heard, guns and gun law isn't a U.S. only thing.
Oh right, yes, it's only about the U.S... Unless it's not, then it must be in relation to the U.S. and it must be an us against them thing. I could give a rat's arse about the U.S. gun laws. I wanted to know why people felt the need to own them. Lotsa interesting answers, such as being prepared for the dark days when I'm supposedly gonna need them to start shootin' at our elected officials.
Guns don't = bad.
Gun ownership logic = tragicly... strange. :D
But unless folks here are only after some kinda group hug and don't want differing opinions, why do gun owners constantly wanna discuss the issue of gun rights on this BBS?
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But Nash...we are FOREIGNERS...we shouldn't have an opinion.
Funny, but when Americans come here we refer to THEM as foreigners...perhaps we should change this as only non-Americans are actually foreigners.
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But, why do you care what we do in the States. I could care less what you have for laws in Bermuda. If someone wants to have a gun in the US, so be it. If you don't want a gun, well thats alright too. That is what makes the US so special.
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Originally posted by Monk
But, why do you care what we do in the States. I could care less what you have for laws in Bermuda. If someone wants to have a gun in the US, so be it. If you don't want a gun, well thats alright too. That is what makes the US so special.
For one thing I travel to the US regularly with my family. It concerns me that with so many guns, and with so much gun violence, that there is a greater chance of them getting hit by a stray bullet from a drive-by or targeted by a sniper when visting your beautiful and honestly "great" country.
Should I still not have an opinion, or are you now going to say "Then stay away from the US"?
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Umm... Curval...
You do realize you're now rationalizing with the line "I need you to give up this right in case I visit"... right?
Come now... don't be such a tard.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
Umm... Curval...
You do realize you're now rationalizing with the line "I need you to give up this right in case I visit"... right?
Come now... don't be such a tard.
AKDejaVu
No...I was asked by Monk why I care...I answered him.
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Originally posted by Curval
Should I still not have an opinion, or are you now going to say "Then stay away from the US"?
Not at all, but do you really feel unsafe.
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Originally posted by Monk
Not at all, but do you really feel unsafe.
Fair question.
To be honest I really didn't even think about it until I went to the Con. If you check the second post in Ripsnort's thread about non-gun owners putting their money where their mouth is, you will see that I only started to feel a bit unsafe when I realised just how many guns were actually in circulation and the low cost that anyone can buy them for. Then the sniper case in Washington added to my sense of insecurity.
One tid-bit I forgot to mention regarding the Con was 3 really bright sparks who had just bought rifles and were trying to re-pack them into the boxes. It was quite comical. I watched them struggle for about 10 minutes while in line at the gun range and it occurred to me that these "winners" were now in possession of deadly weapons. :eek:
To answer your question, yes...I am starting to feel a bit unsafe in the US.
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I don't really give a diddly whether you guys have got guns or not. But you're always lecturing non-Americans about the "freedoms" you have that we don't have, and yet when we try to exercise OUR freedoms, you get all pissy and jump all over us. I am exercising MY RIGHT to be appalled by the loss of life in the US - much of it caused by handguns. Usually, those killed are unknown to me. But it's still a hard thing to bear when I turn on the TV and find there's been another mass murder in the US by a crazed gunman, often claiming children as victims.
Sorry Lazs, but just as I will never convince you to give up your gun (were I to try, which I never have and never will) so you will never convince me of the validity of your opinion that more guns means more security, because it depends on two things - who they're aimed at, and whose finger is on the trigger.
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Wow beetle... I wonder if you were as appalled as when the gentleman started murdering grade school students in Denmark with a nife? I don't suppose there are any mass murderers in England at all? Yah... its all about the guns... not the inherant nature of people.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Curval
I watched them struggle for about 10 minutes while in line at the gun range and it occurred to me that these "winners" were now in possession of deadly weapons. :eek:
LOL........seen that before.
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This is what folks don't get......
When you are brought up to believe and understand the Constitution and the RIGHTS which it affords us, are raised from a youth to understand, respect and use firearms, hunt and/or target shoot with your Dad and friends as a youth, then owning a firearm is a non-issue in your life.
When others begin to tell you that because bad people are using firearms to kill innocents, or parents do not take ownership of a firearm seriously and a child is killed, that you and everyone else should not be able to own a firearm, then I'm left with only one response......
Wake Up!!!
As to my foreign friends....as an American citizen, I'm at a loss as to why you believe your opinion would matter to me at all....don't like guns and believe they are the root of all evil? Then get off your collective ass's and do something about it in your own country!
When AMERICANS debate issues relative to AMERICA, I can at least respect their opinion as an AMERICAN. When others outside of our nation try to impose their will and stand in judgment over us, criticizing the United States, all the while taking foreign aid like a newborn on breast milk, well, just doesn't seem right.
Guess my bottom line is this....why don't those outside of our borders take care of their own problems and we will take care of ours.
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Originally posted by beet1e
often claiming children as victims.
That's a new sport here in Europe, and don't even need a gun.
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Originally posted by Rude
This is what folks don't get......
When you are brought up to believe and understand the Constitution and the RIGHTS which it affords us, are raised from a youth to understand, respect and use firearms, hunt and/or target shoot with your Dad and friends as a youth, then owning a firearm is a non-issue in your life.
Excellent point.
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Originally posted by Rude
As to my foreign friends....as an American citizen, I'm at a loss as to why you believe your opinion would matter to me at all....don't like guns and believe they are the root of all evil? Then get off your collective ass's and do something about it in your own country!
When AMERICANS debate issues relative to AMERICA, I can at least respect their opinion as an AMERICAN. When others outside of our nation try to impose their will and stand in judgment over us, criticizing the United States, all the while taking foreign aid like a newborn on breast milk, well, just doesn't seem right.
Guess my bottom line is this....why don't those outside of our borders take care of their own problems and we will take care of ours.
Rude..with all due respect Nash started this thread. He is not American. Are these boards American? Yes the servers are located in the US, but given the international nature of the internet, and given the fact that we have an international selection of pilots here it is not surprising that non-Americans seek to make their opinions felt here. Frankly I consider a person's thread much like an Embassy....and in this case you are on Canadian soil. So, back off.:p
Where I come from we got off our collective tulips and banned guns in 1971/2.
Not one cent of foreign aid is paid here.
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Rude - just to present the other half -
When you are brought up to believe and understand the rule of law and one's own rights and responsibilities in a gun-free environment, then owning a firearm is a non-issue in your life.
As for the citizens' uprising in the event the government of the day tries to seize its citizens' weapons, oh puhleeeeze! What is the likelihood of that? And how do you think you guys would organise your rebellion? I think you'll find there's rather more to it than reaching for a rusting .38 in the glove compartment of the Pontiac Grand Am. LOL!
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Originally posted by beet1e
As for the citizens' uprising in the event the government of the day tries to seize its citizens' weapons, oh puhleeeeze! What is the likelihood of that? And how do you think you guys would organise your rebellion? I think you'll find there's rather more to it than reaching for a rusting .38 in the glove compartment of the Pontiac Grand Am. LOL!
Dunno beetle... seems our country has already shown that we know what it takes.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Curval
Rude..with all due respect Nash started this thread. He is not American. Are these boards American? Yes the servers are located in the US, but given the international nature of the internet, and given the fact that we have an international selection of pilots here it is not surprising that non-Americans seek to make their opinions felt here. Frankly I consider a person's thread much like an Embassy....and in this case you are on Canadian soil. So, back off.:p
Where I come from we got off our collective tulips and banned guns in 1971/2.
Heyas Curval!:)
I'm happy for you and yours....would suck if someone had told you that you did not have the right to make that change eh? I would also believe that what works on a small island with a limited population might not apply in a larger model such as the US. BTW...do criminals use guns when committing crimes in your neck of the woods? Just curious, are your laws restricting citizens having guns stopping the bad guys from obtaining them?
As to those outside of the US border expressing themselves on this board, I never said they shouldn't be allowed to do it, just that I have a hard time respecting their opinions...I would never tell them how to live their lives or act as if I understood their heritage, thats all.
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Originally posted by Rude
Heyas Curval!:)
I'm happy for you and yours....would suck if someone had told you that you did not have the right to make that change eh? I would also believe that what works on a small island with a limited population might not apply in a larger model such as the US. BTW...do criminals use guns when committing crimes in your neck of the woods? Just curious, are your laws restricting citizens having guns stopping the bad guys from obtaining them?
As to those outside of the US border expressing themselves on this board, I never said they shouldn't be allowed to do it, just that I have a hard time respecting their opinions...I would never tell them how to live their lives or act as if I understood their heritage, thats all.
Rude,
It is true that this island cannot be compared to the US and I have tried not to appear to be telling Americans what they should or should not be doing. I was merely expressing my concerns, as I travel to the US alot.
To answer your questions:
I can't say 100% for sure that there have been NO crimes since 1971/2 involving guns...but I cannot recollect any myself. I was living in Canada for almost 12 years so one or two might have happened in that time.
The law here bans gun ownership unless you join the gun club..and even then you MUST keep it at the range.
My best to you and the kids.
Curval
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Many moons ago, during my second year of employment as an educational consultant for a local municipality, a co-worker became the sponsor of a Japanese exchange student. During the brief conversations that I had with Jiro, I found him to be extremely intelligent, reticent, polite, and curious.
Although of medium height by American standards he was slightly built. Jiron quickly became addicted to American cuisine and began putting on weight. After several weeks in America his sponsor felt that he might be feeling a little homesick. To ease him through the transition period she prepared a traditional Japanese meal to celebrate his birthday, complete with all the trimmings and decorations. That afternoon she proudly ushered Jiro into the dining room and presented him with the carefully planned and prepared meal. After studying the table and it's spread of food for a moment he asked, "Where are the steak and potatoes?"
Later that fall, Jiro's sponsor approached me about taking him to my deer camp so that he could shoot a real gun. I thought it an odd request so I enquired as to the reason why Jiro had asked to do this. As it turned out, he was a member of a "gun club" in Japan. He later showed me a photograph of he and his fellow club members posing with various realistic appearing "non-guns." He explained that it was legal to be a member of such a club in Japan, but it was forbidden to fire a real weapon. He had asked his sponsor if she knew of anyone who would be willing to take him somewhere so that he could fulfill his dream of firing a real firearm. So she had approached me.
So, I loaded up a .22 caliber rifle and a .308 and took him to my deer camp. We walked some trails through the woods, which was a unique experience for him, and then fired the .22 at some tin cans. He declined to shoot the .308 after I fired it once to familiarize him with its report and recoil. Nevertheless, he was delighted with the experience. His sponsor told me that it was one of the high points of his stay in the United States. Jiro later attended my wedding shortly before his return to Japan.
So, you see, it is possible to derive simple pleasure from firearms without posing a danger to oneself or to those around you. It was my privilege to help Jiro fulfill his long-time dream. I never saw Jiro again.
I have heard that he recently became the military dictator of a small southeast Asian country.
Regards, Shuckins
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midnight Target: Looks like the rate dropped pretty steadily starting in 1992.
I agree, doesn't seem to be any correlation with the concealed carry law.
Probably due to the economy.
Not really. The abortions were made legal in 1973. The most crime is commited by "underclass" youth aged 16-24 - average/mist serious 19-20. In 1992 the unwanted children aborted in 1973 would have turned 19.
The number of abortions performed was very considerable. Almost all of them were in what we would call "underclass". Assuming 1/2 of unborn would have been male and about 1/3 of those would have been criminals (that is true for black males but being non-recist I assume it is about right for any "underclass") and even discounting secondary beneficial effects (a girl can continue education and get a job), you can predict how much any social ills statistics would drop - crime rate, abortion rate, etc. Than compare with real data starting 1989 (1973 + 16). I did just that - and it was almost exact match.
So forget about all those "better economy", "better policing", better arms, tough Giuliani policies, affirmative action - it was just a "natural" process.
The rates should have started declining noticeably about 1989-90 (1973 + 16) and reached bottom / stabilised at about 1998 (1973 + 25).
Oh, yeah - some localities legalised abortion a bit earlier than 1973 - and saw corresponding decrease and peak earlier.
Just check the charts.
Nash: 17% of all homicides were at the hands of a stranger (they say that stat hasn't changed in 10 years).
Oh, yeah - the same here, in US. Murder of a wife by a jealous husband or drive-by gang war shooting or drug dealer shot in competition for turf are all classified here as non-stranger violence...
miko