Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Dadman on June 05, 2000, 10:49:00 PM
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Gents,
Open letter to AH owners and developers.
I am REALLY TIRED of the highanded, arrogant, idiotic situation at iEN.
But I'm helpless. AH does not seem interested in developing a Mac version. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Too bad, you've got 1,000s of frustrated WarBirds Mac customers just waiting to try your sim.
Dadman 305th BG(H) "Can Do"
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I realy feel with you dadman... I searched the board... this is what the developers (in this case Pyro) had to say about an AH Mac version.
Quote: 'There are currently no plans for a Mac version. I won't close the door on the possibility, WB went a good while before they had one. But at this stage, we just cannot justify the costs of doing that. What happens if and when we get out of the woods is something we'll have to analyze at that time.'
and
Quote: 'Not producing a Mac version is not just a simple choice dictated by personal whim. It's not because we feel there's no Mac market. But there is a big difference between what is feasible and what is feasible for us at this time.
HTC's philosphy is to do this one thing without any distractions. To accomplish that, we need to keep our start-up costs down and our overhead low. This is a no-frills operation. The pitfall a lot of developers fall into is that they have to seek out a lot of money from a publisher or venture capitalist to finance their project so they can "do what they want." The problem is that once they do that, they're no longer doing what they want, but what is dictated to them by their financiers. Suddenly they find that their project has become the goose that laid the golden eggs with someone else merciless hacking away at it because its not laying eggs fast enough to satisfy them. No thanks. If we have to sell ourselves off to succeed, we will have failed.
We aren't shutting ourselves out of a market. AH is written to be platform independent. Changing from D3D to OpenGL is not a huge conversion. But the simple truth is that it's not something we can do right now. At the point that it is an option to us, we'll look at the market and go from there. I wish I could tell you what you want to hear, but I can't.'
The whole thread is at this url
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/000009.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/000009.html)
Hope to seeya up in the sky one day.
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BEE(JENG)
=CO=II/JG2~Richthofen~
CLICK ->>> JG2 INFO (http://ripsnort60.tripod.com/JG2inquirer.html/)
(http://nottosc.tripod.com/109bee.gif)
'Nemo Me Impune Lacessit'
[This message has been edited by JENG (edited 06-05-2000).]
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Hopefully they are getting over that hump, and can start to search for a mac programmer.
Big rumor on AGW is that iEN will have a flat rate soon, but will they have 3D cockpits?
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(http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1/dtahcard.gif)
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!
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Dadman, no offence, but have you considered changing computer ?
Is there a special reason why you use a mac(Work or something) ?
If not I would have changed in my next upgrade, no doubt (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Perhaps you could find a cheap secondhand celeron PC or something like that, then you can use that one to play AH, it will be worth the investement, believe me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
OBS:: It is not my intention to start that old PC vs MAC debate, I just express my point of view !
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(http://home.sol.no/~laerga/lassel.gif)
The Wild Vikings
Commanding Officer
lasse-
[This message has been edited by lasse (edited 06-06-2000).]
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Dadman,
When in the 4th I flew cover for you and the boys in the 305th, so I know what a great bunch you and the rest of the 305th are. With that I'll give you my honest oppinion on the matter.
First I wouldn't hold your breath on Aces High for the Mac. As HTC has said, it's not that they can't do it or don't want to do it, it's strictly a matter of resourses available (both money and personnel). This is not likely to change in the near future. Remember AH is a fairly new sim and has a long way to go in development before resourses can be allocated to development of a Mac version.
However all hope is not lost. Although I would never presume to tell someone how to spend their money, a viable solution to your problem is the purchase of an inexpensive PC for the purpose of playing AH. You will find that the grapics engine and the eye HT and the boys keep to frame rate considerations, allows very good performance of AH on a fairly low budget PC.
For example WB 3d in 1024x768 pretty much gags my Cel 300@450 Viper 550 computer, and the performance in 640x480 isn't much better and looks awful. However that same computer performs flawlessly in AH. Frame rates average in the middle 40s in 1024x768 with the HiRes artwork and is even playable in higher resolutions (everything is just to small on my monitor)
The contrast is much better in AH than WB (I can actually see the con below the icon agaist the ground in AH) and all this performance on a very middle of the road PC.
I don't know why you use a Mac, whether it's because of your work or just personnel preferance. I know that a lot of Mac users are very dedicated to the platform and IMHO that's great (to each his own). But with the current prices for a PC that will perform very well with Aces High, you can pretty much have you cake and eat it too.
So if at all within your budget constraints, get an inexpensive PC (things like monitors and input devices are interchangable I believe) and come play with us in AH, you won't regret it. Besides I need a reason to get some Pony drivers to get together for a bomber escort mission deep into enemy territory. (Bet I could even get daddy to come along (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
Sharky
P.S. The above views are the authors and do not necessarily reflect those of HiTech Creations
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Playboy Leader
307th FS/31st FG
You can run but ya just die tired
[This message has been edited by Sharky (edited 06-06-2000).]
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Er...also not wanting to start the 'ol Mac vs PC debate at all either... I just wanted to let you know about my experience with it. My squad started out about 5 years ago, all on Macs... flying Hornet, AW and WBs. With the new sims coming out for the PC only, and the lack of support for the existing Mac sims, we decided to make the switch to PC.
Pretty much our whole squad (around 20 of us) made this switch about a year ago. It was one of the best decisions we could have made. Being a graphic designer, I still use my Mac and love it... but for flight sims, this PC really has been great. The cost of PC's really are so low now that it really wasn't too much of a hit.
When I calculate the amount of time I spend on this hobby, the cost of the computer itself really becomes negligable. I fully know what your going through Dadman. The waiting... the frustration... and the dissapointment. If you can afford to get your hands on a PC, even just for the flight sims (depends of course on your priorities), I would just go ahead and make that leap. Within' days you'll be up flyin' the best sims on the market, the waiting game ends, and ya don't look back. It's been fantastic.
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Gents,
Thank you all for your timely and intelligent replys.
YES- I have a reason to use a Mac. I own a graphic & website design and film & television production company- BobCat Studios in Phoenix, Arizona. http://www.bobcatstudios.com (http://www.bobcatstudios.com)
All our graphics design and non-linear editing platforms are Mac. I find the Mac OS system is much more intuitive and less "bulky" that Windows. The new 500MHZ G4s with 124 bit read speed are smokin' machines.
WITH THAT SAID I have seriously been considering a PC. Not just for sim flying, but for monitoring our websites to see how they function on a PC.
My issue with the PC springs more from fear of the unknown than anything. I have a nice Thrustmaster Mac set-up on my G3 that runs WarBirds and I'm familiar with it. If I got a PC I would want to convert to a USB system so I can swap controllers back and forth between a Mac and a PC. I won a CH Products Flight Yoke at the WarBirds PS Con last year and I have a CH Products Flight Stick. I have yet to buy a USB throttle and pedals.
Who knows though? Once I fly on a PC I may never go back to the Mac.
I'm asking a favor. What would I need in a PC box to run AH (and WarBirds and B17II when it is released)? I'm not talkin' minimum, but something that will perform well and that I will be able to upgrade and/or fly with for at least a year in it's present state.
Also suggestions on where to buy (or have built) the PC.
Also is there a way to connect a Mac and a PC to the same monitor? I don't wanna buy a new 21" monitor just to add a PC.
Then there's the controllers issue. I need to decide whether to stick with Thrustmaster and go USB or switch to CH Products USB stuff.
IN CLOSING: I've been "lurking" on the AH boards and I've noticed a singular difference in the "tone" of the posts. They're much more civil and seem to reflect a more satisfied customer base than AGW/WarBirds. That intrigues me more than anything.
I don't know if any of you monitor AGW, but WarBirds/Apple just published an article on Apple's website about WarBirds for Mac. They showed PC 3D IMAGES!!! The Mac WarBirds community is INCENSED. Jay Littman called it an "honest mistake," but now the damage is done.
What could have been a publicity coup for iEN by showing the first full, 3D images of WarBirds III became a PR disaster! I do PR for a living and I've never seen a publicity opportunity so badly bungled.
I may just have to finally "cave in" and buy a PC to see AH for myself.
HEY SHARKEY- I guess you're flyin' both platforms 'cause accordin' to Daddy= you're helpin' out with his Pony class. I guess I'll cya tonight...I'm takin' it.
Lt. Col. Dadman 305th BG(H) "Can Do"
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The best way to get the PC to match your specifications, is to build your own. Shouldn't be to hard to find a knowedgable fella to help ya out.
Building your own has the following advantages.
1. used to be cheaper, thos today i think u can save maybe 300-500 dollars. not the huge savings of yester year
2. You know EXACTLY whats in it, its upgrad capabilities and its performance statistics.
3. You can customize your PC much more completly tthan any out of the box PC
4. excellent learing experience.
Theres more +'s but thats all i gonna do for now. the major - is for anyone new to it, building your own looks to be a daunting task. get a friend or techie to help ya out, and turn the screws and format the drive yourself. In the end you'll be very confident about your new PC and may actually come to respect it as much as your MAC (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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WarChild
I/JG2~Richthofen~
"Better Check Your Six!"
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Dadman, if you are serious about building a PC, go to the AGW Hardware forum. The guys there will pretty much spec out a good system for you, probably even give you links to places to buy the stuff from. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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And I fully agree with WarChild... building your own is the *only* way to go. Now that doesn't mean that you litterally assemble the components yourself. You will basically be making a list... "I want this type of CPU, that type of motherboard, this type of CD drive" etc.
Whether you actually assemble these pieces is up to you. I just took my list down to one of those computer places that ya always wonder how they stay in business (small storefront type operation, little inventory)... Building these computers seems basically to be what they do. The mark-up was nil, and they labour cost me around 70 bucks, max.
The hardest part of all this is doing the research. Take Funked's advice and get some help on the AGW forum. Good luck!
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Could you describe your system Nash?
Thank you,
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Milo
JG 2
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Gents,
OK all this encouragement has pushed me off the fence...ON THE PC side.
Can I ask a favor and get recommendations from you all on the following?
Motherboard
Graphics/Video Card
Sound Card
USB Card (unless the motherboard has it)
Box, fans, etc.- The "hardware"
I don't need a modem, but I will need Ethernet capability (to connect to a Cox cable modem).
I don't need a monitor, but I do need to research a way to connect BOTH a PC and a Mac to an AppleVision 21" monitor.
ANYTHING ELSE I HAVE OVERLOOKED.
You've talked the talk...now walk the walk hehehe.
BTW- I WILL check the AGW hardware forum.
Dadman
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Put me down as a very satisfied customer in regards to Ultra TNT2 32mg. video card.
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Heya Milo - When I get home I'll give you a list of what I have. I don't know how usefull it'll be as there are new products out and the prices for what I have are all now a bit lower. I'll also talk to one of the PC gurus in my squad and see if I can get a good current list for you.
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NAsh,
I will also monitor this thread. I am interested in your info.
Dadman
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Computor Gaming World's (The magazine) "Power Rig or The Lean Mean Machine" is also an excellent example for the "Build It Yourself'er". I have built my last two computors using their formula.
Good Luck, Hope to See You Up! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"If you little boys don't behave I'm going to send you to your rooms without supper!
by John "SUPERFLY" Guytan - Art Director
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Dadman! It would really be nice to see you here. Anymore of the 305th considering it? Hope so. I used to enjoy flying woth you in WB, although you don't know me as Apache. I was ??????? in WB (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Apache
The Blue Knights
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Here's my self built system:
CPU:................ AMD Athlon 700
Video:.............. LeadTek GeForce256 DDR
Motherboard:..... Abit K7M
Memory:........... Micron 128Mb PC133
SCSI Controller:. Diamond Fireport (soon to be replaced)
Hard Drive 1:..... 18Gb Seagate Baracuda SCSI3
Hard Drive 2:..... 4Gb Seagate Baracuda SCSI3
DVD-ROM:......... Pioneer 5xDVD, 32xCD SCSI2
CD-ROM:........... Plextor 40x SCSI3
Sound Card:...... Soundblaster Live! Platinum
DVD Decoder:.... REALmagic Hollywood+
Network Card:... Intel PC100+ 10/100
Mouse:............. Logitech Mouseman Wheel
Joystick:.......... ThrustMaster F22 Pro with StickWorks Digital chip
Throttle:.......... ThrustMaster TQS with StickWorks Digital chip
Monitor:........... MAGinnovision DX700T 17" Trinitron
OS:................. Windows98 SE
DirectX:............ DX7a
Internet:........... 1.5 Megabit ADSL via LAN
Stability:.......... Excellent (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Sisu
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 06-06-2000).]
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Ve haf vayz off finding out who you vere in varbirds you now. You can run, but you cannot hide. Ya know, if you change your handle and not identify your old handle, it is very bad thing around here, donchya know? And Pyro will reveal it if ya cause any trouble there apache. So keep it civil.
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LOL mino (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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John "SUPERFLY" Guytan - Art Director
HiTech Creations
"Happiness is a warm gun momma" - The Beatles
-=HELLFIRE=- SQUAD
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I just built a very similar system to Karnaks.
Right now the Athlons are giving alot of bang for the buck, and the 700mhz area is the price/performance break point.
If your wanting to keep the price down, I would reccommend going with non SCSI drives, since they are much more expensive.
You can also get either a SDR Geforce or a TNT2 Ultra, on the video cards as another price cutting area.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Dadman
I got a custom built jobby from www.Mwave.com (http://www.Mwave.com)
Pick out all the items, and they will build and test for 50$. Its been 7 months now with no problems.
I pretty much hit all the places that build custom puters on the web, and no one could match Mwaves prices for the same components.
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Keep in mind guys, that B-17 II with all the tumminess turned on will have a minimum requirement of 800 mhz cpu to be played properly. The E3 demo was runing on an 800 mhz Pentium III with 256 megs of ram and was _chugging_ in spots with alot of planes in the frame. Assuming they clean it up a bit so it doesn't swallow as much smooth play whould be possible with an 800 mhz system. (scary eh?)
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Hi,
I don't really fly AH but I am in SBM with Nash and thought I'd post about the PC's.
I too was on a mac a few years ago but made the switch to PC.
I have been using the Celeron CPU's and I love them. Right now I have a Celeron II 566 but I am running it faster than what it is rated (overclocked) and I am running at 850 mhz. I bought the CPU, Fan/Heatsink for $200.
ABIT BX6 Motherboard
Creative Labs TNT 16 MB video card (old)(a better video card will dramatically increase performance)
Creative Labs AWE 64 Value Sound Card (old and cheap)
Maxtor Hard Drives 6 MB and 13 MB
100mhz SDRam 64 MB (128MB recommended and good, fast Ram is a must for overclocking)
Cheap network card provided by my cable company.
Cheap Floppy Drive
Creative Labs CDRW Drive but any cheap CD Drive will work
I'm not sure if/how you can connect a Mac monitor to a PC. I know that a PC monitor will connect to a mac with an adapter but maybe they make an adapter to go the other way also.
If you want, you can email me and I'll provide some links to the places that I like to buy hardware from. I have built my computer and 3 other ones for my friends.
I recommend reading up on the hardware and also overclocking. Overclocking is not very difficult (no jumpers or soldering anymore) and the risks are minimal. You will have to decide if you have any moral objections for yourself.
Hope this helps....
Cmala
screamin' blue messiahs
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As far as sharing your monitor, a KVM switch is what you need. Here's a couple of links ...
Belkin's OmniCube is a nice choice if you don't need USB (http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatSectionView.process?IWAction=Load&Merchant_Id=1&Section_Id=56)
For USB I'd try IOGEAR (http://www.iogear.com/products/kvm/miniviewusb.htm)
I've used both and they're great. Completely OS independent.
Hope to cya flying soon (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Ex ...................
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Not to get into a flame war. WB is a fine sim. But i suspect that AH has gotten some of the best players from all the prop sims. If you like a good fight. this place will never disappoint you. It really might be worth gettin a PC for.
OH. and theres a bunch of us old ACA dweebs around. So there s some easy kills too.
[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 06-07-2000).]
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Reccomendation:
http://www.pcnut.com/systems/stealthf.htm (http://www.pcnut.com/systems/stealthf.htm)
Several squaddies have dealt with these guys with good results. One guy just ordered that exact system. That machine rocks, and the price is great.
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
(http://tuweb.ucis.dal.ca/~dconrad/ahf/lepht.gif)
"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
- Steve Earl
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http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1232&p=17 (http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1232&p=17)
There are a wealth of system combos out there
this is a example of a good cross section.
As a retired pc "whatever" consultant (25 years in the silly con vally) I would be happy to help you turn the screws (by email of course or RW) if you wish to go that route.
then there are a plethora of guides on the web also.
I used to dabble in mac's alphas and sun's also. Golf is cool (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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OhNooo
smile awhile
[This message has been edited by MrBill (edited 06-07-2000).]
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Dadman,
You can't even figure out how to do Macintosh. How the hell are you going to figure out how to figure out the mess-of-an-OS Windows.
LOL
Have fun Dadman
and have fun all you trying to help him. LOL
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Dadman, here are some links of reputable dealers we have used here at AppLink.
http://www.microx-press.com/ (http://www.microx-press.com/)
http://www.compuplus.com/ (http://www.compuplus.com/)
http://www.a2zcomp.com/ (http://www.a2zcomp.com/)
http://www.techstore.com/ (http://www.techstore.com/)
http://www.crucial.com/ (http://www.crucial.com/)
The last one os primarily for ram. Some have better prices than others, so check out each component you want.
One note, when you pick the case for your system, try to get at least a 300W power supply, but nothing less than 250W. High end graphics cards require a lot of power and if you use a really fast HD, you will need the extra power.
For a modest system that will do the job and won't cost an arm and a leg to build here is what we use:
Motherboard: Super Micro P6SBA
Processor: Intel Pentium III 550Mhz (Slot 1)
Ram: 128MB SD100
Ethernet Card: Netgear FA-310TX
Sound Card: Sound Blaster AWE64
Joystick: MS Sidewinder Pro
Video Card: ATI Rage Fury PRO
The ATI card is not as fast as the GeForce DDR card, but does the job nicely for AH and is quite a bit cheaper than the GeForce and, unlike the Voodoo cards, runs happily at 32bit color depths. It is a good compromise between the Voodoo and GeForce.
Now for the disk subsystem, while SCSI is not as cheap as an IDE drive, you will find some nice advantages with it. Fewer interrupts are used for one thing. The PC based systems have limited interrupts, and that is usually what most folks run into when building out fully loaded systems.
I have a HP Scanner, CD-ROM and 2 hard disks attached to my SCSI card, which only needs the one interrupt.
SCSI Card: Adaptec AHA-2940AU (stay away from wide cards)
SCSI Disk: Seagate Cheetah 9GB (the Barracuda is cheaper, but both are good drives) Quantum also makes some good drives and are a bit cheaper than Seagate. Be sure to get at least a 9GB drive! Windows is a disk hog.
SCSI CD-ROM: Toshiba XM-6201B (40X)
Floppy Drive: Mitsumi or Teac
Mouse: MS Intellimouse
Keyboard: IBM PS/2 (This is an expensive keyboard at $75.00, but it will be the last keyboard you will ever need for your system and you can only get it from http://www.ibm.com/ (http://www.ibm.com/.....ask)
.....ask HiTech about this keyboard (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)).
Speakers: Labtec LCS-1030 (not the best around, but they have a small footprint)
For the monitor, Belkin makes some great KVM switches. See http://www.warehouse.com/ (http://www.warehouse.com/) for these. In the search box, look for "Omnicube". Great product and you can get a MAC adapter for it as well. Although the MAC adapter is more expensive than the switch itself (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Hope this helps.
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Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
President, AppLink Corp. http://www.applink.net (http://www.applink.net)
skuzzy@applink.net
[This message has been edited by Skuzzy (edited 06-09-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Skuzzy (edited 06-09-2000).]