Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: AKDejaVu on October 31, 2002, 12:05:52 PM
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Originally posted by Curval
My friend..your "freedom" is a farce. The most omnipotent organisation in the world is in america...namely the IRS. They know all about you...and if they feel you haven't "pinked" up the correct amount...you go to jail. I have no such restriction of my freedom to conduct business.
Who lives in a country where you do not have to pay taxes?
In those countries where you do have to pay taxes, what happens if you don't?
I found this statement to be one of the most incredibly niave things I've ever read.
AKDejaVu
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Don't even ask about the taxes we gotta pay up here. It's a total joke.
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Brunei
http://www.brunei.gov.bn/
They dont allow immigrants though.
We pay far less then Europe......
my mom worked for the irs for a long time. They only enforce the laws that are given to them. The irs has been reformed somewhat. You dont automatically go to jail. Most people settle with the irs for far less then they actually owe.
You dont like giving your money away? never vote for a liberal.
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
Who lives in a country where you do not have to pay taxes?
I found this statement to be one of the most incredibly niave things I've ever read.
AKDejaVu
Funny, but lazs agreed with me (and he was the guy I was arguing with).
What exactly is so naive about it? It is a fact.
See lower down in the same thread you took that from and you will see how taxes are paid here.
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curval... I don't think deja is a real fan of the IRS either. Pretty hard to find anyone who would vote to keep the IRS.
lazs
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Originally posted by Wotan
my mom worked for the irs for a long time. They only enforce the laws that are given to them. The irs has been reformed somewhat. You dont automatically go to jail. Most people settle with the irs for far less then they actually owe.
That's because they realized that sending a perp to jail really didn't make other people pay their taxes any more than they would've without the example. It was realized that convicts usually lose their business after their conviction and can't find gainful employment afterwards and, hence, aren't able to pay taxes anyway. There were also a number of lawsuits for damages brought against the IRS, based on several different claims but the general idea was that the IRS had wrongfully interferred with the operation of a business and had impacted more than just the wrong-doer. The IRS got smart and realized that they can only get their tax money if the perp is able to earn income, hence the drive to settle claims with a lump-sum payment or to spread payments out over time.
Chuck Berry went to prison. His career ended. Eddie Murphy is still working. He has a new movie coming out, following a string of commercially successful films. From whom did the IRS get its money?
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no that was because there was a change in the political make up of the congress.
The irs on its own didnt decide to stop enforcing its mandate as vigorously as before. It was told to.
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Curval,
Your post about the IRS was naive on many levels... as was Lazs' reply.
You pay taxes too. If you didn't, you would starve. Seems your country goes about taxation on a whole new level. Of course... I'm sure they don't do anything to property owners that don't pay their property tax either.. right?
I also like to see someone from a country that does not have the ability to be self sustaining and doesn't export anything trying to compare his tax system to a country that does.
As far as what kind of power the IRS weilds... I think you and many other would be amazed. Who was it... Udie? Ask him what dealing with the IRS on back taxes is like.
Man... it really was a stupid statement curval.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
Curval,
Your post about the IRS was naive on many levels... as was Lazs' reply.
You pay taxes too. If you didn't, you would starve. Seems your country goes about taxation on a whole new level. Of course... I'm sure they don't do anything to property owners that don't pay their property tax either.. right?
As far as what kind of power the IRS weilds... I think you and many other would be amazed. Who was it... Udie? Ask him what dealing with the IRS on back taxes is like.
Man... it really was a stupid statement curval.
AKDejaVu
I disagree that it was a stupid statement.
Your point about property taxes. That is taxation based upon the value of a property. Recourse in this case is swift and direct. They take the house if a creditor is in serious default.
Income taxes are a whole different ball-game. They are based upon your labour, not a feasable, tangible asset. When you don't pay "the man" from the sweat off your back you catch yerself a whoopin!
Your defense of the IRS is amusing. Without offending Udie (I'm sure he would be the first to admit it) he is extremely "small fish"...and I'll bet to cut a deal with him was nothing more than a very low level manager's signature. Get on the wrong side of the IRS when you are talking slightly higher figures and I can assure you...a barium high-colonic would be a more pleasurable experience.
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Oh.. I see curval... it goes from being an all powerfull tyranical entity to being something that really just goes after the wealthy. Coincidently a tactic you seemed to praise your own government for doing.
And... pssst... if someone in America defaults on a loan, they get their property siezed too... unless they are in Florida.
Loans and taxes are two separate things. Come now.. you should know that.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
And... pssst... if someone in America defaults on a loan, they get their property siezed too... unless they are in Florida.
Or if they're hiding from regulators basing their business out of somewhere like, I dunno, Bermuda? (Tyco anyone?)
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the only thing that bothers me is wastage, such as people on the welfare system that don't need it. Also, foreign aid pisses me off. I'd rather see Israel get wiped off the face of the earth then have to have some of my tax money goto them.
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Originally posted by Wotan
You dont like giving your money away? never vote for a liberal.
this would be valid only if the 'conservatives' were not as free spending as the 'left'.
a green party budget would probably spend much less than one written by bush.
vote libertarian or anarchist.
'crimes' against the IRS are the on criminal charge in which the burden of proof is on the accused, so the Gov't can send just about any waiter, cab driver or nude dancer to jail on a whim (tips).
i'd rather have them send the nude dancer 'round to my place
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
Oh.. I see curval... it goes from being an all powerfull tyranical entity to being something that really just goes after the wealthy. Coincidently a tactic you seemed to praise your own government for doing.
And... pssst... if someone in America defaults on a loan, they get their property siezed too... unless they are in Florida.
Loans and taxes are two separate things. Come now.. you should know that.
AKDejaVu
What on earth your first paragraph is on about I have no idea. So I simply cannot comment. Perhaps if you re-word it and make it relevant to what I wrote I can then respond.
As to your second and third paragrah, I was not talking about loans...where do you get that from what I wrote. Perhaps I should spell it out...if you don't pay your property TAXES the government will take your house. Comprende? It is probably the same in the US. We don't have income taxes here, which as I said before are taxes based on your labour.
Now what is your point?
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Originally posted by Fatty
Or if they're hiding from regulators basing their business out of somewhere like, I dunno, Bermuda? (Tyco anyone?)
Hiding from regulators is absolutely one reason to base one's international company in Bermuda. Have any of you ever tried to operate a company which is conducting international business from the United States? The environment is akin to banging your head against a "wall" of regulations and red-tape. It is one reason that so many US companies are moving their operations outside the US. If you want to lay blame for this, level it at your own government for making the laws that frustrate the free flow of capital and thus business around the world.
Tyco is a stain on Bermuda's reputation, I fully admit that....but the reality in that case is that an American who was running that company ripped off it's employees and shareholders through the use of bad accounting practices and fraud. Not one Bermudian director is facing prosecution.
Speaking of fraud and bad accounting practices...can you say Worldcom? Enron? Talk about throwing stones in a glass house.
Jeeeze.
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So Curval...
If you don't pay your property taxes in Bermuda, you get your property seized. Somehow, this is magically OK in Bermuda, but the result of a tyranical organization in the U.S.
Gotcha.
One more time....
You are quite full of it.
Taxes are Taxes no matter where you live. EVERY government enforces tax payment quite strictly. Siezure of property is one way they get their money back in Bermuda and in the United States. Someone not being able to afford their taxes is considered in the U.S. and is not a reason for sending someone to jail.
Now... if someone were to commit fraud to avoid paying taxes, then they have committed a crime. That is when jail time will come into the picture. It still has to be shown to be criminal fraud and the person still goes before a trial by jury. The IRS does not simply wave its wand and presto.. you're in Jail.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
So Curval...
If you don't pay your property taxes in Bermuda, you get your property seized. Somehow, this is magically OK in Bermuda, but the result of a tyranical organization in the U.S.
Gotcha.
One more time....
You are quite full of it.
Taxes are Taxes no matter where you live. EVERY government enforces tax payment quite strictly. Siezure of property is one way they get their money back in Bermuda and in the United States. Someone not being able to afford their taxes is considered in the U.S. and is not a reason for sending someone to jail.
Now... if someone were to commit fraud to avoid paying taxes, then they have committed a crime. That is when jail time will come into the picture. It still has to be shown to be criminal fraud and the person still goes before a trial by jury. The IRS does not simply wave its wand and presto.. you're in Jail.
AKDejaVu
awwww have I offended you by criticising the IRS? Next April I willing will be anxiously watching your posts to see the joy that you must feel when giving all that money to Uncle Sam.
You are correct when it comes to the seizure of property and as I said in my last post it is probably the same in the US. What IS different is that I don't pay INCOME TAXES...you do. I would guess that 2 out of every five days you are working is essentially to pay the IRS. Failure to remit may very well land you in jail. This is a fact.
Your also correct in saying that there is no majic wand being waved by the IRS to put someone in jail. It is a long drawn out process...enough to get many offenders (or non-offenders who are attempting to justify their position) jumping from their office windows due to the stress. Calculations of back-taxes, interest and penalties can take some time, and don't forget the $300/hour tax lawyer who, in an effort to defend someone, will gladly delay the process as much as possible in order to fatten up his/her billing.
I am full of it? I think YOU are full of it. Do you really feel all warm and fuzzy towards the IRS, or is this personal for some reason?
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Tyco was a low blow, so would be Global Crossing. You notice our Enron guys are going to jail.
The point, however, is the tax burden comparison between a very small island with a strong tourism industry and favorable to international businesses, and any large country with a fully integrated economy. Heck, look at anyone north or across the atlantic from us and they'll tell you we're cheap bastards that pay no taxes.
The reason you hear so much griping about the IRS is simply because people do not like taxes (christ they keep voting for them though). It doesn't matter whether you like them or not though, they were voted in and you've got to pay them. Yeah, I hate the IRS, but I'm glad it's at least making (most) everyone else pay too.
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this would be valid only if the 'conservatives' were not as free spending as the 'left'.
a green party budget would probably spend much less than one written by bush.
vote libertarian or anarchist.
'crimes' against the IRS are the on criminal charge in which the burden of proof is on the accused, so the Gov't can send just about any waiter, cab driver or nude dancer to jail on a whim (tips).
i'd rather have them send the nude dancer 'round to my place
ofcourse, but politics arent about issues they are about image. It was the republicans that brought the issue of "irs abuse" up in the media. Everyone hates the irs so it was an easy issue to get support for. However the irs has not really changed. It has softened around the edges and now spin the "Service" part.
The irs doesnt have the authority to go out and grab folks at random and lock them up. They never did. They dont come to you without proof. They examine irregularities in the documents you submit to them. If the see issues that may lead them to believe you are de-frauding the government they investigate it. Once they have evidence to support their cause they go after you.
If you are right they dont. They settle most of the time for less then they are owed. The irs dont set up road blocks outside of a restraunt demanding waiters provided an accounting of their tips. But when these people submit a tax return expecting a rebate based on false information they are attempting to commit fraud.
Show me a waiter who honestly reports his income?
If you want the tax laws changed then vote for the people who will change them. Dont get mad at the tax man when he does his job enforcing the law.
I hate taxes. I hate that the government confiscates my money for things I care nothing about.
But I understand that if I lie or cheat theres a consequence. Its like blaming the policeman because you got caught speeding.
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Mr. Kozlowski, the Tyco CEO may well be sharing a cell with the Enron guys.
This post came about because deja took at quote of mine and turned it into a cheerleading post about how great the IRS is for some reason.
I had initially posted my quote from the gun thread which resulted from alot of guys pumping their fists against their chests and proclaiming their "freedom" to own guns. I merely brought up the IRS to show that this "freedom" is somewhat stained by the fact that you are not free to conduct your business without bowing down and "paying the piper" with respect to taxes...to one of the most omnipotent organisation in the entire world.
The irony was just too thick to pass up.
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where is the post this originated from?
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The post came from the Gun owner/non-gun owners thread. I started this one because the original statement had ZERO to do with that thread.
Its seems that Curval and his friends sit around all day trying to think of ways that Bermuda is better than the U.S.
Curval,
Its not that you hurt my feelings, its that you are trying to imply that somehow the U.S. tax agency is somehow more evil than what you currently deal with and that somehow impares our freedom whereas Bermuda has no such issues.
You really can't argue the point, so you have to come up with some kind of "red tape international trade" comments to justify your bashing of the IRS. Once again... the two have nothing to do with each other.
The truth is, Bermuda is nothing but a loophole on the Eastern seaboard. That's fine because your country seems perfectly content to sit back and make money on that. It just seems that a country with no industry and no agriculture is sitting back and criticizing the very source of their economy.
Bottom feeders. :rolleyes:
AKDejaVu
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So how long have you been an international tax expert?
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/626629.jpg)
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I know this sounds simplistic but I would do away with the IRS and use sales and property tax as means of supporting the government. I would also establish "enterprise" accounts. For instance... all monies collected at the gas pumps would go toward improving roads/transportation... In this way we could see just what is costing us as individuals and we could better decide what is really needed.
lazs
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Well I'd vote for ya.....
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/626629.jpg)
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Value added or sales taxes hurt the poor and working class much more than the rich. It ends up being a much larger chunk (percentage) of the middle to lower income earners salary.
A flat tax would be better.
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Define "flat tax"
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
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We currently have a "sliding scale" income tax. The more you make, the higher percentage of your income you pay.
A flat tax means that (for instance) everyone pays 10%. Simplisticly explained, but you get the idea.
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At the risk of sharing too much of my private life,I'm self employeed and I consider my taxes the price of doing business in the USA. If you're offering me the opportunity to tap the unlimited potential of the Bermuda consumer base then I must decline, in spite of your promise of a reduced tax rate- I'll continue on struggling through my tax liability here in the USA.
Thanks, Curval, but no thanks.
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Originally posted by Airhead
At the risk of sharing too much of my private life,I'm self employeed and I consider my taxes the price of doing business in the USA. If you're offering me the opportunity to tap the unlimited potential of the Bermuda consumer base then I must decline, in spite of your promise of a reduced tax rate- I'll continue on struggling through my tax liability here in the USA.
Thanks, Curval, but no thanks.
Airhead - Being as AkDejavu has resorted to putting words into my "mouth" and name calling I thought that I would just ignore him...and make a comment on your post.
As a self-employed person in America selling consumer goods in America to Americans I could do very little for you, in any case, even if you WANTED to set up shop here. You would not be permitted to sell these goods into the local market, for staters. This is strictly a priviledge extended to local merchants only.
If, however, you were a large US company that was selling goods world-wide I could definately help you. Of course I would in no way be a part of helping you to avoid paying AkDejavu's favourite tax collectors over at the IRS their due. Any money repatriated into the United States is declarable and ultimately taxable. The only real benefit would be a tax defferal for money held outside the US...and the ease of doing business through a non-US company, called an "exempted" company. These benefits though are attractive enough for a number of US companies who have done just that.
So, no sweat. I'm not offended, or surprised, that you do not wish to take advantage of the services offered by the little island in which I live.
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Originally posted by Swoop
So how long have you been an international tax expert?
Who? Me or Curval?
I personally know very little about international tax issues. That's why I would ask about them.
I do know about the U.S.'s tax policies in regards to its population.
Basically... the original quote had the validity of me sitting back and criticizing U.K.'s tax policies.
And Lazs... a flat tax would greatly reduce the need for 90% of the IRS as would a sales tax / property tax system. But... regardless, if it comes to people having to mail in money, there will be people that don't pay. That will have to be tracked and dealt with.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Wotan
Show me a waiter who honestly reports his income?
True story...
During the first year of the Exxon Valdez spill the herring and some salmon fishing was banned in Prince William Sound.
The fishermen were up in arms demanding payment, and rightfully so IMO, for their lost income.
Exxon realized their responsibilty to pay back the affected fishermen for their full year of losses...
...so, Exxon paid out a lot of money to those that requested these funds, but the fishermen weren't very happy with their checks one damn bit!
It turned out that Exxon's payment to them was dependant on the amount that each fisherman claimed on their '88 fed tax forms.
Fishing is more or less a cash business, in Alaska, as in many other states, their reported income is on average 1/3 of what they actualy make.
That first year < March '89 to March '90 > in Valdez was interesting to say the least :D
There were some fishermen that didn't squeak though, some came away with tons of money and were called 'spillionaires' by the locals. I know of 5 single boat fishermen < bow pickers, 25 or so feet and a cost of about 35-40K each > that worked since day 1 of the spill as water taxis. They had all fuel, food and repairs paid by Exxon. The typical contract for these boats was writen up on a yellow legal pad by hand for...get this, $4,500 a day. The five guys I got to know that had such a contract worked the spill for a minimum of 5 months straight.
After the initial rush for equipment the average daily fee paid for a water taxi slipped to $750 a day. They still got a check from Exxon for their lost fishing income also :D
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Originally posted by Curval
So, no sweat. I'm not offended, or surprised, that you do not wish to take advantage of the services offered by the little island in which I live.
LOL OK, nice backhand. You're right, though, I'm too little to ever take advantage of the tax benefits offered by accountants running tax shelters for large corporations on the outer bank. Don't worry, I'm not offended that my lack of income is no surprise to you. I'm also not offended nor surprised you're soliciting clients on the bbs. ;)
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Demanding that people file tax returns likely violates the 5th Amendment. That is quite separate from the matter of paying taxes.
miko
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deja... there will allways be loopholes and people who skirt the edges... A consumption or sales tax is fine it only needs to be collected from the bussiness. Only a bussiness need file returns. I don't want a tax on income.
lazs
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Nah, wait til you pay 50% income tax, 25% sales tax 180% fees on cars, 250% fees on water, an electricity market without competition. Wait til you earn less money working overtime than you do on nromal hours due to tax pressure.
The best tax collectors are in Denmark. Not only are they extremely good, they're also extremely efficient.
You ain't seen nothin' yet in the US. Wait til you work ten months of the year solely for mr Government.
After that, I'll be accpeting your complaints. Which will be taxed.
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The advantage to a sales (value added) tax over a flat tax is that you don't have to pay a gov't agency to keep tabs on where your money comes from.
There would be little incentive for tax fraud, as the cheating would have to be done in cooperation with the store you are spending at. Why would they risk tax fraud charges to help you catch a break on your taxes?
Your income would be private and it would encourage saving or investing because you wouldn't have to pay taxes until you spend it.
As far as it taxing the poor more heavily than they are now. That could easily be handled by making certain things exempt from the tax. Medical care, & food (the kind that could be bought now with food stamps, not a night out) come to mind right away.
Not that I enjoy the rape of my weekly paycheck, but I find the invasion of my privacy more offensive than the actual amount taken.
As it is now in order to pay a accurate % of my check I need to keep records of where I stay when out of town on business, where I eat and how much I spent.
And the tax courts can charge you with tax fraud and convict you without evidence. All they have to do is accuse you. The burden of proof is on you.
Say you have an expense that they claim is fraudulent, you are guilty unless you can find evidence (records) that it is accurate. And you can go to prison. In any other criminal case the burden of proof would be on the gov't to prove you didn't have the expense.