Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: ra on October 31, 2002, 05:03:35 PM
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From an Israeli newspaper:
" Chechen Terrorists to be Buried in Pigskin
According to the Moskovski Komsomol newspaper, Russian security forces have decided to bury the terrorists from last's week's hostage siege wrapped in pig's skin. The aim is to deter potential Islamic terrorists from future attacks.
Shahidi (Jihad martyrs) believe by their nefarious acts that they ascend immediately to heaven. Using their beliefs against them, wrapping their corpses in 'unclean' pigskin prevents them from entering heaven for eternity."
ra
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How about dem apples!
-SW
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Yep. I can support this idea. Although I don't think it will deter them and may well increase the ferocity and violence.
Still, I like the idea. It's even better than Pissing on their graves.
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They should still piss on their graves though.
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no wonder they don't play american style football
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I'm liking Russia more and more
Originally posted by ra
From an Israeli newspaper:
" Chechen Terrorists to be Buried in Pigskin
According to the Moskovski Komsomol newspaper, Russian security forces have decided to bury the terrorists from last's week's hostage siege wrapped in pig's skin. The aim is to deter potential Islamic terrorists from future attacks.
Shahidi (Jihad martyrs) believe by their nefarious acts that they ascend immediately to heaven. Using their beliefs against them, wrapping their corpses in 'unclean' pigskin prevents them from entering heaven for eternity."
ra
is that because you enjoy inflicting rape and torture on thousands of Chechen civilians too? Or just because you think the road to peace and reconciliation is paved with the corpses of eternally damned muslims?
What is there to like about that sort of gesture. The act of taking hostages was bad enough, why goad them any further beyond simply shelling their cities until flat and executing rape witnesses?
Like we don't have enough bad feeling, we gotta add to it.
Sheesh
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Hhm... yeah... I like it.
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Seems like a very Christian thing to do.
:rolleyes:
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What's "christian" got to do with any of this? Why do you even bring that up?
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What is there to like about that sort of gesture.
Let's see: these a-holes belong to a cult which tells them that if they blow up 800 innocent civilians they will get a free trip to paradise. However, the rules say they can't get there wrapped in pigskin. So this move tells the rest of the bloodthirsty vermin that just because you can kill women and children doesn't mean you'll necessarily get the 72 virgins. I'd say that's some disincentive there.
You seem to think this move on the theater goers was politically legitimate.
Sheesh.
ra
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It's a very rational response to attempt to deter terrorism, we'd call it psyops . But I can see it's evoking some irrational responses on this board .
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Yes they are just poor freedom fighters. They were stopping those mean theatregoers from oppressing them. It wasn't actually a musical, it was a secret meeting of the Chechen Opression League, part of Russia's "shadow government", and therefore a legitimate military target. :rolleyes:
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Yeah those russians did pretty well, Terrorists killed only couple hostages but russian troops well over hundred.
Pretty good K/D ratio :)
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Yes, dead hostages, how funny. Let's all laugh. Har-dee-diddlying-har.
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You're right, that is funny. ROFLMAO
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Funked maybe you should read more about what happens in Chechenia:
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/russia_chechnya/#_1_19
The next morning, on January 21, the two men decided to visit the Zubayev family to ask for some bread. In the yard, they came upon a gruesome scene. Wakha R. related to Human Rights Watch what he saw in the yard:
What I saw was awful. All the members of the family were shot. Judging from the bullet casings, they were shot from a heavy submachine gun. Malikah and Luiza were holding their daughters. The house was still smoking, it had been burned. There were tracks of an APC in the yard. The gates were broken. Things from the house were thrown about, and all the luxurious things had been taken away. The house had been looted and the family had been killed.
They found the bodies of eight people in the yard:
Zeinap Zubayeva, the wife of Said Zubayev, aged sixty-four;
Malikah Zubayeva, daughter of Said and Zeinap Zubayev, aged forty-five;
Alina Zubayeva, daughter of Malikah Zubayeva, aged eight;
Mariet Zubayeva, second daughter of Said and Zeinap Zubayev, aged forty-three;
Ruslan Zubayev, son of Said and Zeinap Zubayev, aged thirty-five;
Luiza Zubayeva, wife of Ruslan Zubayev, aged thirty-three;
Larisa Zubayeva, daughter of Ruslan and Luzia Zubayev, aged twelve; and
Said-Magomet Zubayev, nephew of Said Zubayev, aged forty-seven.
The second daughter of Ruslan and Luiza Zubayev, eight-year-old Eliza Zubayeva, could not be found, but the two men believe that she was burned in the house. Sultan explained what they did next: "I put all the bodies in a pile, and covered them with canvas [and heavy things] so the dogs wouldn't touch them." They then heard soldiers coming and were forced to leave the yard. The men were too weak to bury the bodies after spending months in their cellar: Wakha R. told Human Rights Watch that he had lost fifteen kilograms in that period.
Wakha R. was convinced that Russian soldiers had killed his neighbors: "There is no doubt in my mind that they were killed by Russian soldiers. The Chechen fighters left the day before, and only Russian soldiers were there. Besides, there were the tracks of an APC in the yard."
I know, you're just a yank who doesn't have a clue what happens but you can learn if you will :)
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If soldiers did that, they are war criminals and should recieve the most extreme punishment. It does not excuse the taking of hostages and does not make humorous the accidental death of said hostages.
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Staga, I think Boroda is busy right now but I'm sure he'll be along directly to tell the "true" story of what happened in that incident.
:D
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Where do you think the serbs learned it from, they were soviets too .
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War criminals? Wouldn't word "terrorists" fit better in this case?
What I find funny is that when russians kill chechen civilians nobody gives a watermelon but when chechen terrorists take russian hostages the hell breaks loose in U.S.
Then you wonder why some think you're retarded... LOL !
Nice pic from Grozny after russians searched some terrorists.
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:rolleyes:
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Staga, "war criminals" is the term we use in English when uniformed troops (as suggested by the scanty circumstantial evidence in the example you cite) commit atrocities. It doesn't make them any better than terrorists.
And to say nobody in the US gives a toejam about the deaths of Chechens is wrong. Boroda has described in detail the ambiguous feelings that US government and citizens have shown towards the Chechen cause. There are people marching in the streets of the cities here in support of Islamic causes. I had a day's outing in the San Francisco SSR ruined last weekend due to a march by such people, including guys with Arafat headgear and "free Palestine" signs. I think the problem is that you get you knowledge of the US on what you see on TV or on this board. Neither one is an accurate view of reality here.
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From dictionary:
ter·ror·ist:
One that engages in acts or an act of terrorism.
ter·ror·ism:
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.
Doesn't say anything about uniforms?
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I didn't say you couldn't use terrorist. But it's a more general term. "War criminal" is a more specific term applying to those in uniform. Also, what about "often for ideological or political reasons." The case you described sounds more like they were murdering out of hate and greed.
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In this case you could use word "Terrorist" when you're talking about Russia.
uups you're friends with russia now, guess we better sweep that issue under the carpet.
hehe if you look how dictionary describes word "terrorism" it looks like you could use that word when talking about Israeli government too :D
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Originally posted by ra
Let's see: these a-holes belong to a cult which tells them that if they blow up 800 innocent civilians they will get a free trip to paradise. However, the rules say they can't get there wrapped in pigskin. So this move tells the rest of the bloodthirsty vermin that just because you can kill women and children doesn't mean you'll necessarily get the 72 virgins. I'd say that's some disincentive there.
You seem to think this move on the theater goers was politically legitimate.
Sheesh.
ra
English comprehension not your strong point then?
Let me spell it out for you
I utterly condemn the individuals and organisations who did this:
a)Took 800 civilians hostage and murdered many of them
and this
b)Murdered, raped and tortured over 100,000 civilians and bombed the city of Grozny to dust killing 25,000 civilians in just one month. (january as it happens)
So just to make sure you really understand ra:
I don't think the theatre hijacking was a legitimate political procedure. I think it was a last ditch attempt by Chechens, filled with hate for what russia has done to them, to return the favour. Thankfully they failed where the security forces succeeded.
But wrapping them in pigskin or pissing on their graves or dissing their dead mothers/children/sisters/brothers etc is only going to stir up more bad feeling.
"Don't bomb us or we'll wrap your corpses in pigskin? "
You think they believe in all that hocus pocus voodoo crap? Their religion is just a cover for revenge, and like all religions it will stretch to fit the demands made upon it. Maybe when they execute christians 'terrorists' in Saudi Arabia they should decapitate them and bury them at crossroads to try and heal the wounds and make a peaceful settlement?
Killing people is ok if God is on your side, right? Unfortunately not, but people would have you believe it.
So wrapping them in pigskin may make you feel better, but who gives a monkeys about that anyway?
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btw Funked I like you (mostly because you have a cool car), It's just so fun to yank your chain sometimes :p
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Should I start posting links to various movies scattered around the internet of Chechens abusing prisoners and cutting their throats and such? You know, the ones they film for bragging purposes?
Hardly innocent "freedom fighters". They look more like bloodthirsty killers.
The Russian military may treat them badly, and commit "war crimes" against them, but it's not unprovoked. Neither side is "clean".
J_A_B
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Originally posted by Staga
btw Funked I like you (mostly because you have a cool car), It's just so fun to yank your chain sometimes :p
Staga I'm going to blush...
I love you too man!
Chain yanking is great sport IMHO. We do this all the time where I work. As my dad was once told by a bunch of older factory workers when he was a rookie in the plant: "If we didn't like you, we wouldn't say anything at all."
:)
PS I bought my car to attract CHICKS not male Finnish video game nerds. Maybe I need to get a new car????? :eek:
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Originally posted by J_A_B
Neither side is "clean".
Amen.
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Originally posted by funkedup
I bought my car to attract CHICKS not male Finnish video game nerds. Maybe I need to get a new car????? :eek:
You bought a Subaru WRX to make chicks interested about you? And then you call me a nerd?
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What I meant is now your car looks like a family sedan, even if it has nice spoilers and plenty of power under the hood.
You would propably have better luck with '64 Plymouth Valiant cabriolet with slant six.
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I agree JAB, neither side is clean.
Both sides are dirty.
But Russians still have a capital city and most of their population left. The chechens have nothing but the hand of friendship from terrorists everywhere. This was just the first time, and the pigskin thing will go a long way to ensure there is a second and a third time. The russians will need to be lucky again and again
the chechens will only need to be lucky once.
Realistically the Chechens are now fighting for their pride, since they no longer have a viable country. The Chechens/Ingush have lived in that region for probably 6000 years. They were invaded in the 19th century and subsumed into soviet russia after that.
The campaign in Chechnya is nothing short of a deliberate attempt to eradicate the indigenous inhabitants which started back in 1944 when between 30% and 50% of the region's population was forcibly exiled to siberia.
It's a tragedy of unimaginable proportions that pales into insignificance at the actions of some bloodthirsty maniacs.
Some are dirtier than others.
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Yeah it's true, it doesn't work.
My old Civic had that "electron blue pearl" paint which started several conversations for me. But the WRX just looks like a rental car to them.
But I knew one who would get excited (physically) from driving real fast, so maybe I just need to work on getting them IN the car.
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Dont Terrorists consider themselves Soldiers?
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Originally posted by funkedup
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But I knew one who would get excited (physically) from driving real fast, so maybe I just need to work on getting them IN the car.
Hehe I knew one who liked when I drove my old BMW in side slide... good looking, stupid biatch. Everything I could ask for :D
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Wait a minute!:eek:
You guys seem to have forgotten all about those poor pigs. :rolleyes:
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Quote:
"Dont Terrorists consider themselves Soldiers?"
They do?? Great!! That means OUR soldiers can kill them on sight and make POW's of the survivors.................
WTG, Rooskies!! If we could just get the popsicle US Liberal-Lefties to go along with the Rooskies(Liberal-Lefties LOVE Russia, right??)i might get into buying some hog futures........
Cabby
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pick sides
I pick Israel and Russia
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Originally posted by Cabby44
Quote:
(Liberal-Lefties LOVE Russia, right??
A lot of the leftist groups in the US have lost their love for the Motherland ever since the KGB money stopped coming in.
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That rocks :D
Wrap everyone one of those swine in swineskin.
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Pick Sides
Eagler, I think this might have gone past the level of playground dispute and into armed conflict some time ago.
But if I was going to intervene like some God, I would choose Chechnya and the Palestinians.
Unfortunately, due to a lack of God, it will be up to us humans to try to stop killing each other.
As far as efficiency goes, Russia and Israel are way ahead in the enemy bodycount stakes, and show no signs of slowing down.
The Palestinians and the Chechens succeed in grabbing the headlines mostly, and dying in large numbers of course.
Like JAB says - everyone involved has blood on their hands. Some have pints, others have cubic kilometers.
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do you think our government should do this kinda thing- burying moslems pigskin i mean?
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Originally posted by mrfish
do you think our government should do this kinda thing- burying moslems pigskin mean?
No..
it'd be an insult to footballs everywhere.
-SW
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Calling Boroda.. come in Boroda... Boroda come in!
Boroda, obviously there's some other folks besides myself that haven't had the benefit of your enlightened history books.
Please straighten these guys out, much as you've tried to help poor misinformed old me.
I mean, there's guys in here that actually think Russia was unkind to the Chechens! Can you believe that????????
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do you think our government should do this kinda thing- burying moslems pigskin mean? - mrfish
Hhmm... Good question. I was all for the Russians doing it, but now that you ask...
I guess I would find the idea of my government actually wrapping people up in pigskin and burrying them to be kinda silly.
I dunno... you've got me in a bit of a conflict. I like the idea of the Russians doing it, but would be kinda dissapointed if my government did. I don't even know why.
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Originally posted by Toad
Calling Boroda.. come in Boroda... Boroda come in!
Boroda, obviously there's some other folks besides myself that haven't had the benefit of your enlightened history books.
Please straighten these guys out, much as you've tried to help poor misinformed old me.
I mean, there's guys in here that actually think Russia was unkind to the Chechens! Can you believe that????????
You know Toad, if boroda posted equivalent of your "they brought it on themselves" 1 week following Sept 11 2001, you'd break your fingers typing up your indignation....
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Nah.
I'd just consider the source and ignore it.
He's the guy that maintains there was no Katyn Forest massacre by the Soviets, after all. Gorbachev lied. Yeah, right.
Like I said, you'd have to consider the source.
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well it doesn't surprise me that the russians would do such a thing afterall they're a really vulgar people.
but to emulate your enemy by doing something childish and vindictive only validates them. not to mention executing the survivors without a trial.
i'm surprised you patriots would condone such a thing - it doesn't seem very inline with american principles.
my grandpa's generation with their manners in school, yes sir-yes ma'ams, brill cream hair and pressed shirts sure wouldn't have gone there. they would have thought the chechans were acting like animals - they wouldn't have followed suit though.
our beliefs are closer to the WWE than that generation's - shameful.
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Originally posted by mrfish
my grandpa's generation with their manners in school, yes sir-yes ma'ams, brill cream hair and pressed shirts sure wouldn't have gone there. they would have thought the chechans were acting like animals - they wouldn't have followed suit though.
our beliefs are closer to the WWE than that generation's - shameful.
Are you talking about the WW2 generation?
If so, they indeed answered "like with like". Talk to some Marine vets from the Pacific campaign.
The Japanese beheaded a 345th BG crew that bailed out near a Japanese occupied village on New Guinea. About two weeks later US troops took the village and found the graves and ID'd the dead.
After that discovery, the 345th routinely strafed Japanese sailors in the water after sinking their ships. This is documented in "Warpath Across the Pacific" I believe.
This is merely one example, too. I think you'll find like was answered with like in just about every theater by every side.
Here's another:
CHENOGNE (http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres.html)
"CHENOGNE
(Jan 1, 1945)
In the village of Chenogne, the US 11th Armoured Division had captured around sixty German soldiers. Marched to behind a small hill, out of sight of enemy troops still holding the woods beyond the village, the prisoners were subjected to a volley of machine-gun fire. On this cold and frosty first day of 1945, the GIs were showing no mercy for their unfortunate prisoners as they crumpled to the ground, shot dead in cold blood. With memories of the Malmedy massacre still fresh in their minds, killing had become impersonal, revenge was now uppermost in their minds."
****
Like for like.
Just so you know.
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i can only judge that generation from the conversations i've had sitting around with those old guys and getting their take on life.
my grandpa- his 4 brothers and all of my grandma's brothers were all class acts and in a way i'm glad most of them aren't around to see how we think about things these days.
they didn't cut anyone's ears off or do anything morbid during the war - they went to fight tyranny and wouldn't have dreamed of that stuff. they just wanted to do their thing and get back to their farms and families and kids.
those memories are enough for me to judge that generation by, that and their idea of what a free country should think is important, not some history channel episodes.
it doesn't matter to me if you think those acts are permissible, i'm just curious if it's the case for the community - looks like people agree with you anyway.
i think it's deplorable, and considering my shabby moral character, that's really sayin' something.
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Originally posted by mrfish
i can only judge that generation from the conversations i've had sitting around with those old guys and getting their take on life.
[/b]
Why limit yourself? There's plenty of documentation of man's inhumanity to man by that generation in WW2. On all sides. Sit down and read the entire list that the previous Chenoge link will bring up.
If you want to belive, based on a few folks in your family, that that kind of stuff didn't happen or was even rare, then you're wearing blinders just like Boroda.
It isn't anything to be proud of but ignoring it or pretending it wasn't so is the worst possible situation.
they didn't cut anyone's ears off or do anything morbid during the war
[/b]
I don't know them and I'm not casting any aspersions but I seriously doubt they told you of their worst experiences.
those memories are enough for me to judge that generation by, that and their idea of what a free country should think is important, not some history channel episodes.
[/b]
It's not the history channel. It's real life. It's what happened. And all sides were guilty. A thing we shouldn't want to forget, IMO.
i think it's deplorable, and considering my shabby moral character, that's really sayin' something.
Particularly when one recalls what you've said about the Israelis, eh? ;)
Still, wrapping them in pigskin is disrepectful, I agree. I said it most likely would only engender more violence and hostility.
However, it doesn't look like "turning the other cheek" is going to work any better in Chechnya than it does in Palestine. There's going to be some more damn, dirty killing and probably over a lot of years before any of this dies down.
And pigskin or not, that's probably what it will take. Massive amounts of dying over long years until both sides finally give it up as futile.
Just more of man's inhumanity to man... which may be the one constant through ALL the generations.
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It's sounds very barbarian.
U guys might be glad the USA doesn't do anything stupid like that.
I think there always to stories to tell .
If i had to pick sides offcours i would choose Israel and Russia.
But i'm not in the that situation. So yes i would like to hear both stories.
It's like a prayer without an end just like this BBS.
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True or false? No one seems to know.
Pershing the Thought (http://http://www.snopes2.com/rumors/pershing.htm)
Claim: General John J. Pershing effectively discouraged Muslim terrorists in the Philippines by killing them and burying their bodies with pigs.
Status: Undetermined
Other anecdotal accounts attribute Pershing's success to his merely threatening to do as described:
Col. John J Pershing threatened the mullahs with . . . "splattering of pigs-blood on your houses and families and any who attack us and are killed will be buried in pig-skins." Consequently the mullahs made Pershing an Honorary Chieftan with little if any more trouble in his area of command.
Yet another account, from the 1938 book Jungle Patrol, attributes the deed to someone other than Pershing:
It was Colonel Alexander Rodgers of the 6th Cavalry who accomplished by taking advantage of religious prejudice what the bayonets and Krags had been unable to accomplish. Rodgers inaugurated a system of burying all dead juramentados in a common grave with the carcasses of slaughtered pigs. The Mohammedan religion forbids contact with pork; and this relatively simple device resulted in the withdrawal of juramentados to sections not containing a Rodgers.
Other officers took up the principle, adding new refinements to make it additionally unattractive to the Moros. In some sections the Moro juramentado was beheaded after death and the head sewn inside the carcass of a pig. And so the rite of running juramentado, at least semi-religious in character, ceased to be in Sulu. The last cases of this religious mania occurred in the early decades of the century. The juramentados were replaced by the amucks. .. who were simply homicidal maniacs with no religious significance attaching to their acts.
Page is an interesting read, btw. Seems Israelis have been threatening to do the same thing lately.
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"they didn't cut anyone's ears off or do anything morbid during the war "
Funny you should say that, I gew up listening to how that exact sort of thing happened, being told by someone who saw it with his own eyes. At least it happened up in Alaska. Not sure if the strings of ears were from live or dead Japanese though, I never had the stomach to ask.
Another close relative who served on Guadalcanal simply wouldn't talk about his experiences.
Hate was alive and well back in the 1940's....stuff like that just doesn't typically get included in the history books.
J_A_B
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despite toad's usual "filabusterama- hyperlink-o-rama-google-search-o-rama" attempt to bury the point and make this about attrocities during the pacific campaign in the 40's and his deep insight into my family - my question wasn't along those lines at all
those acts in the 40's didn't come down as directives from the executive level of government - i don't think f.d. roosevelt or harry truman woulda said hey dogface joe go cut some jap ears off...
i am assuming in russia that this act was condoned and perhaps orchestrated and originated by the GOVERNMENT itself as a matter of policy, not the angry acts frontline soldiers.
my question remains:
would you condone your united states government doing the same?
i already know the price of tea in china so spare me...
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As state sponsored, no- but Russia is a State which doesn't have to answer to our standards of civilization. I'm not surprised the Kossaks are doing this at all, given the historical brutality that is Russia.
That being said if the terrorists are so scared of pork why don't we crunch up tons of pork rinds and sprinkle them throught all the trouble spots in the Islamic world? Remember that movie Mars Attacks where they find out that yodeling song causes the Martians' heads to explode and we save the world? You gotta admit it'd be pretty cool if all we had to do was sprinkle ground pork rinds from B-52s and all the Moslems would react like snails sprinkled with salt. It might solve all the world's problems.
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Originally posted by mrfish
do you think our government should do this kinda thing- burying moslems pigskin i mean?
I wouldn't waste the ground space ..
How do they feel about cremation? Ashes spread at the nearest landfill ...
blounder, sorry to hear you side with murderers of women and children whose only crime is riding a bus, shopping or going to a movie
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Yeah Eagler, Israel has intelligent artillery shells and missiles which kill only palestinian militants but leave innocent civilians unharmed even if they are in same room.
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i'm surprised you patriots would condone such a thing - it doesn't seem very inline with american principles.
my grandpa's generation with their manners in school, yes sir-yes ma'ams, brill cream hair and pressed shirts sure wouldn't have gone there. they would have thought the chechans were acting like animals - they wouldn't have followed suit though.
our beliefs are closer to the WWE than that generation's - shameful.
Now who was it that detoured from
would you condone your united states government doing the same?[/b]
Who was it that impugned "you patriots"?
Who was apparently very mis-informed about "that generation"?
Sorry, sometimes I can't help myself when I see folks that are so obviously mistaken.
And you started the detour from the thread. If that's what you wanted to know, all you had to do was leave out the slam against "patriots" and stow the mistaken evaluation of that generation's moral standards and just ask your question.
And, if you check my first post, you should have already deciphered my answer to that question.
That act would be very much "inline with American principles" as expressed and acted upon by the generation you revere.
Further, it's quite possible that this EXACT thing was done by Americans in the Phillipines vs the Moros. Or did you miss that in my filerbusterama? And THAT generation of Americans was supposedly even more "manners in school, yes sir-yes ma'ams, brill cream hair and pressed shirts" than your grandpa's.
Buh-bye.
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Human Rights Watch: Suicide bombers guilty of war crimes (http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/11/01/human.rights.palestinians/index.html)
"The people who carry out suicide bombings are not martyrs, they're war criminals, and so are the people who help plan such attacks," said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch.
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What about Chechens dying in occupied Chechnya every day ? Are they burried at all ?
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Why doesn't Russia just let them separate? Have a referendum. If the Chechnyans want to separate, make them take their share of the national debt, by population. And charge them for any of Russia's fixed assets within Chechnya.
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How Bacon Bits saved the world
The scene: A small windowless room deep inside the Kremlin. The bare light bulb casts shadows across the blood stained stone walls as two KGB agents, Demetri and Sergi, continue their "interrorigation" of captured Chechian terrorist Abdul.
Sergi: Talk, Abdul!! You have been holding out for two days!! Tell us what we need to know!! Who are your contacts?
Abdul: Allah Alkbar!! Keep beating me and I am closer to my reward of 72 virgins!!
Demetri: (raises rubber hose, starts beating Abdul)
Abdul: (singing Chechian patriotic songs in rhythm to his beating) Oh yes!! 72 virgins!! I can't wait!!
Sergi: Stop, Demetri- torture will not work. Perhaps what our comrades in the CIA have supplied to us will make Abdul change his mind...(removes small jar from his pocket, shakes it menacingly at Abdul) Do you know what this is, Abdul??
Abdul: (ignoring Sergi, singing about his 72 virgins) Soon I will be with all of youuuuuuuuUUUUUUU!!
Sergi: This is a top secret torture agent used in Guantamino Bay, Abdul- the CIA calls this "Bacon Bits."
Abdul: (suddenly still, looking suspiciouly at the small jar in Sergi's hand) What is this...bacon bits??
Sergi: (waving jar under Abdul's nose) Smell this Abdul...It is PORK!!
Abdul: Aieeee!!! ALLAH PROTECT ME!!!
Sergi: (sprinkling Bacon Bits in Abdul's lap) Do you think your 72 virgins will want you NOW??
Abdul: Aieee!!! Please stop!! I have sacrificed on the battlefield for all these years with only the promised 72 virgins as my reward!! I will talk!! I am sorry!! Please do not defile my donut!!!
...And so Abdul talks, all the other terrorists go back to their goat herding and rug making as dreams of their 72 virgins evoperate...
they know now their reward will be on Earth and if they milk enough goats or hook enough rugs they may some day come to America. We may not have 72 virgins, but most of the women here don't care if your donut smells like Bacon Bits, either.
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Originally posted by Toad
Calling Boroda.. come in Boroda... Boroda come in!
Boroda, obviously there's some other folks besides myself that haven't had the benefit of your enlightened history books.
Please straighten these guys out, much as you've tried to help poor misinformed old me.
I mean, there's guys in here that actually think Russia was unkind to the Chechens! Can you believe that????????
Toad, Eagler already asked you to pick side.
Also, please decide, do you accuse me of being too cruel towards Chechens of of saying we Russians are "kind" to Chechens. You are not a friend of logics, it's up to you, but, frankly speaking, it starts to annoy me.
To Eagler: if you pick this side, then you are on the same side with Serbs and Macedonians.
Regarding the Moskovsky Komsomolets article about pigskins: MK is a bright-yellow leaflet, famous for incompetence and falsifications. Don't take them seriously, i'm 90% sure it's only figment of their sick imagination.
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but most of the women here don't care if your donut smells like Bacon Bits, either.
ROFL.... a classic.
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Boroda,
It's basically impossible to have any sort of intelligent discussion with someone who relishes his total disregard of historical fact. Katyn Forest being a prime example.
However, in case I haven't been clear:
I am totally opposed to the terrorists and terrorist acts like the occupation of the Moscow Theater.
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Isn't it interesting, Toad, that Boroda's typical disregard for historical fact always revolves around some character assassination of the person or publication involved? It's always about someone who is insanely misguided, a turncoat scumbag, an outright purveyor of lies, and more.
I've seen such tactics before when I studied Stalinism from my hopelessly pro-Western propoganda textbooks. Discredit the idea by attacking the individual as unpatriotic, evil, or otherwise out to undermine things.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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so toad you're saying that your fellows from the history channel show represent that generation more than my folks did? more than the people who did uphold those high morals did? were people formt he 40's really rotten and vindictive is that the impression i should have? i know you HAVE to have the last word but i don't agree with that POV at all.
are you saying that they didn't have a higher moral standard? are you saying that they weren't expected to act more respectfully than people are today? did kids in that generation smart off to adults and teachers as a rule? did they pack lead to schools and walk around with their pants half down saying squeak this and ho that right in front of adults?
well they do today- i think it is safe to say it's changed a little and that the change is a direct result of a degradation of morals and a wholesale sellout of our guiding ideals or do you have some discovery channel education or google link that can disprove that personal anecdotally derived theory too?
i'm not the least bit 'misinformed' about that generation, i'm just not going to judge them on the acts of a few-rather by the norms of the many.
most people from the 60's WEREN'T hippies either, for the most part they normal joes and janes that may have let their hair grow out and wore bell bottoms but i doubt many of the people you know from that period were finding their chakras at some commune and i'm not going to let a show about woodstock form my opinion about them. (i certainly wouldn't site it in an argument either lol)
how is calling people 'patriots' deviating from the course? ra suggested that burying people in pigskins is a super cool thing-> the great masses jumped right on the bandwagon pitchforks at breast as usual-> i think it's out of line with our ideals and further that it's unpatriotic to want decent americans allied with those disgusting russians in these acts. straight on point.
"buh-bye" seems a little on the "neener-neener" childish side but then so does burying people you find contemptuous in pigskins.
there's a lot of people i personally wouldn't mind perishing from the earth because i think they make things bad for all of us - terrorists included - but defiling their graves?
wake up and listen to yourselves americans. we are supposed to have a little class and be a world leader not just in power but as a moral leader as well- it's hard to look like the 'good guy' pissing on someone's grave, regardless whose grave it is.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Why doesn't Russia just let them separate? Have a referendum. If the Chechnyans want to separate, make them take their share of the national debt, by population. And charge them for any of Russia's fixed assets within Chechnya.
would you guys in Canada let Alberta go if they decided to say screw Ottawa on the Kyoto agreement?
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A canadian telling russians how to deal with sepratists is the biggest joke I have heard in a while..
Hey Putin..let em take over your goverment and steal the tax dollars of the rest of your country for thier own use. Establish laws that entrench thier "special" needs!
5 western canadian farmers are in jail today for trying to sell thier product to someone other then the canadain wheat board. In the east..selling through the wheat board is optional...
When Alberta goes. British Columbia and Sasckatchawan will likey go with it. And it wont be about Kyoto.
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Originally posted by Krusher
would you guys in Canada let Alberta go if they decided to say screw Ottawa on the Kyoto agreement?
Sure.
If they don't want to be a part of Canada then so be it.
Pongo, thanks for putting words into my mouth. And before you start shooting yours off about the wheat boards, why don't read what an actual western whear farmer has to say about it.
"Ok folks, before you believe everything that you read....
I'm a grain farmer in Manitoba. I grow roughly a third of my acres to wheat. I fully, and I mean FULLY, support the wheat board. The wheat board price pool is a way of spreading the highs and lows of each sale to each customer to each and every wheat grower in Western Canada.
As was noted by Magnet, the initial price for wheat is roughly 3.50 Can$/ bushel. What the news reports don't state, is that if the wheat had been sold THRU the Wheat Board, the farmer can expect to see about $6.00/ bushel after freight, once the pools are totalled up at the end of the crop year. Each and every sale of wheat to China, US, or wherever the stuff gets sold is put in the pool, and farmers who grew and sold wheat in that crop year get remunerated based on how many tonnes of what grade and protein level that farmer sold. Its fair as hell. The farmers that live 800 miles from the border get the same shot as the farmers that live 20 miles from the border. 6.00 isn't as much as 8.00, BUT 6 bucks for every kernel he grows is probably better than getting 8.00 for a few loads of wheat and then getting 4.00 for the rest because the niche market filled up. I've seen this more times than I can count in 20 years of growing other crops not sold under the wheat board system."
The rest of his post can be found here.
http://agw.warbirdsiii.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12546
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What did you expect from Putin? Here's a man who thinks that Stalin, who murdered more than 20 million of his own people, was a great hero.
But two wrongs do not make a right. Neither side is wearing a white hat.
Shuckins
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I was going to respond to this post until I found out that you shoot chutes and more, because of that I know that you cannot make any sense or have any valid points.
and if you disagree with me, you are insanely misguided, or otherwise out.
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Isn't it interesting, Toad, that Boroda's typical disregard for historical fact always revolves around some character assassination of the person or publication involved? It's always about someone who is insanely misguided, a turncoat scumbag, an outright purveyor of lies, and more.
I've seen such tactics before when I studied Stalinism from my hopelessly pro-Western propoganda textbooks. Discredit the idea by attacking the individual as unpatriotic, evil, or otherwise out to undermine things.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by mrfish
my grandpa's generation with their manners in school, yes sir-yes ma'ams, brill cream hair and pressed shirts sure wouldn't have gone there. they would have thought the chechans were acting like animals - they wouldn't have followed suit though.
There's what you said.
That's a generalization that absolutely does not hold. All you have to do is read the history books.
Some of your Grandpa's US generation did commit atrocities. Some of them "went there" contrary to your idealized generalization. And if you actually do much research, you'll find it wasn't just a "few" either. In particular, talk to Marine veterans of the Pacific Campaign and find out how the war was actually fought out there. Most of them make no bones about it, either.
The European Campaign was a bit more "civilized" if one dares use that word in reference to a World War.
I merely pointed out that your idealistic generalization is incorrect. That's what I am saying.
You seem to be having a hard time with that.
On top of that, you're Grandpa's parents and Grandparents may well have used the pig skin burial on the Moros in the Phillipines.
I said that too.
This is a new MrFish I'm seeing though. I'm having a hard time correlating him to the one who posted here with respect to people of the Jewish faith/race.
Have you changed so much? What do you think of the Israelis and Jews in general now?
have a little class and be a world leader not just in power but as a moral leader as well
Really? Anything in your own closet you might want to clean out before taking to the preaching circuit?
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Todd/Leviathn you Trotskyite traitor!
If you ever spoke the truth, you would choke on its unfamiliarity!
I can't believe someone who used to be so intelligent has become such a totally misguided, unpatriotic traitor to the motherland!
You evil attempt to undermine and destroy our perfect society has been noted and will be dealt with, I assure you!
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how does my stand on jews have anything to do with why you think it's justifiable to defile someone's grave?
why don't you try to shoot straight for a change. i'd love for someone to say for once "i think it is ok because i hate moslems and think they are dirty and inferior." just spit out what you really think instead of PC'ing it up!
i think jews are contemptuous because of my interactions with them and study of their deeds - period.
not from any indoctrination and not from any affiliation with hate groups. i'm not out to purge anyone and the worst they'll ever get from me is a cold shoulder.
i call it as i see it and dislike people i think deserve it whether i am 'allowed' to dislike them or not. it gets me a lot of flak but seeing things as they are is hardly a character flaw IMO and i sleep like a baby.
many of you are the same damn way about certain people and things in life but you're damned chickenshit to admit it.
weren't you just criticizing boroda for character assassination? back to my point and back to your evasion:
should the US bury moslems in pigskin? if you want to expound on something then write one of your 1500 word essays on why you think that's an all-american thing to do and quit trying to make new points to argue.
why is it inline with american ideals toad?
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Just referring to your call for "class" and "moral leadership".
If someone assassinated you character, it wasn't me. You might check the suicide aspect though.
BTW, show me where I ever said the pigskin thing was inline with American Ideals?
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How does that pigskin business work? I mean, the martyr dies and goes to heaven - while his body is still warm. Or is there a holding period?
When his body does get wrapped in pigskin a few days later, does he suddenly get yanked off some voluptions concubine in mid-stroke and gets sent... where? Forever? To wait till the pigskin around his body deteriorates to the point where it is not identifiable as pig-tissue but rather as dirt? Then he goes back to resume the intercourse?
I mean there must be some point where molecules associated with pig-remains lose their "piggishness"? Otherwise pretty much every molecule we breese in or eat is guaranteed to have been a part of a pig at some point. Or human. I am pretty sure that eating human is even less halal than eating pig.
BTW, is there really a directive not to handle/touch a pig in Koran? Or just not to eat it? Because if it's just not supposed to be eaten by a muslim, nothing that you can do with a pig and muslim's body can be qualified as "eating"...
How about touching? Doesn't "unclean" apply to the soul rather than body? If the pig comes in contact with the body when the soul is not there, how does the muslim get "unclean"?
On the other hand, let's not think of it. Let's just pretend the muslims are superstitious idiots not trusting their own god to tell what's going on rather than smart determined well-educated people.
Let's declare the problem solved - that every enemy muslim will be buried in pigskin and cut our military budget and stop guarding our borders... er.. scratch that - already done...
miko
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"Yep. I can support this idea. Although I don't think it will deter them and may well increase the ferocity and violence.
Still, I like the idea. It's even better than Pissing on their graves"
that sounds like support to me - even with your tepid qualification - or does your moral justification only extend to the russians? it's ok for the russians but it's be bad if we did it? is that your position?
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Yes, that's what I said. It's my personal opinion.
Sort of like the one you have about the Jews.
Now tell me where I said it's "inline with American Ideals"?
Or is everything I say considered to be inline with American Ideals? Am I the quintessential spokesperson for American Ideals? Or are you? :D
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so one more shot at getting a straight answer from you -
is it just ok for the russians then? yes ->russians, but no->US?
my point is- if you don't think it is ok for us then why do you think it's ok for the russians? i sense a dissonance in your application of your morality n'est pas?
and yes, you, i and every other dipshit in this country ARE the quintessential spokespeople for the american ideal - who else would be besides the citizens? some sociology professor that can't match his tie to his shirt or tell when his pants are sagging?...sitting at the coffee shop with a bunch of 19 year old temporary college marxists trying to figure out how we should feel about everything...
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Originally posted by Eagler
blounder, sorry to hear you side with murderers of women and children whose only crime is riding a bus, shopping or going to a movie
Eager, when you picked Israel and Russia you merely plumped for the sides with the best chances, not the moral high ground.
You asked us to pick sides. It's a facile ploy at best, but I couldn't resist.
You chose Israel (Remember the Irgun atrocities?). Like the Palestinians, they have an ex-terrorist as head of state. Unlike the Palestinians, they have not been compelled by force of arms to live in Refugee Camps for over 30 years.
You chose Russia. A regime that only terrorises other people when it has finished terrorising it's own. The Russian forces in Chechnya have used rape and torture as a weapon for over 50 years (on and off). And they have murdered over a hundred thousand civilians (who only crime was living in Grozny - not even getting on a bus or going to a movie, mind; simply living there was enough) in the last 7-8 years (conservative estimates)
So we both chose bloodthirsty killers of innocents. what does that tell you?
It clearly points to the fact that no nation is clean. To try and compare one to the other is futile, to take sides is to fuel the conflict.
Human history is dark with blood. Shouldn't we be striving for ways of resolving conflict, not escalating it? I'm not saying that people should capitulate to terrorists, quite the opposite; but to take measures calculated to outrage and enrage the enemy is not a good long term plan.
Generations of Israeli jews and arabs have been radicalised by each side being so eager to goad the other into another senseless act of violence.
What gives me the most hope is that this BBS really is such a self selecting slice through society that it really does not represent anything like the wider international view, for if it did I believe we'd all be screwed.
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Is what ok for the Russians?
I told you already, wrapping the corpses of Moslem terrorists in pig skin and burying them doesn't really bother me. No matter who does it. I thought I'd been real clear on that but apparently not.
But that's my personal opinion. Just like you have a not-so-politically-correct opinion of the Jews.
Now things that do bother me? Wrapping dynamite around young kids and sending them into pizza parlors to blow up other young kids sorta bothers me.
Taking over a theater with ~700 folks in it and planning to blow them up sorta bothers me.
Shelling a major city for ~ 3 months without attempting to let the civilians leave or discriminate your fire towards military targets sorta bothers me.
But wrapping the corpses of terrorists in pigskin? Nah, not a blip on the worry screen. No matter who does it. Sometimes, it helps to clear the air between both sides.
Like you shouldn't insult people who comandeer aircraft and run them into civilian buildings because you might offend those gentle souls?
Well, if I'm a spokesperson, I'd better express my own true feelings then. Just like you do. I'd better "call it as i see it and dislike people i think deserve it whether i am 'allowed' to dislike them or not. it gets me a lot of flak but seeing things as they are is hardly a character flaw IMO and i'll sleep like a baby."
So, I don't care if they wrap terrorists in pigskin and bury them. And "they" is anyone that can catch and kill them.
Clear enough?
BTW, for that matter "they" can bury non-Moslem terrorists in pigskin or pigsh*t for all I care, too.
Oh, yah.. I'll gladly be the guy to "flip the switch" on the DC Sniper duo when they get them all convicted and sentenced. I'll take a day off without pay to do it.
......... and I'll sleep like a baby.
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lol- geez toad i can't help being a little moved by it all, no wonder i like you so much
"no matter who does it..."
"doesn't really bother me"
"And "they" is anyone that can catch and kill them."
well that's clear ....for inuendo.... i guess, super clear would have been something like:
"yes it is ok for the russians and by god it's what our policy here in the united states should be too."
"yes i support it" carries a little more heft than "it doesn't bother me" but in a world where someone might not like you for taking a hardball stand on something i understand your reticence. ;)
you'd be for executing the snipers! wow there's an oddball stand - do you think you can withstand the backlash you'll surely get for that wild lone stand - geee i can't imgine anyone would agree with you- lololol
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Fish, I think you're probably the only one reading this thread that was confused about my position.
I did say I supported it, in my first post; the one you quoted. Did you read it?
You ask about the Russian/US aspect and I tell you "no matter who does it" and you find that innuendo? Hint: I don't care if the Israelis do it either. That help?
You want Super Clear? I already have been but for those who need a neon sign.....
I'd personally wrap them in pigskin and toss dirt over them. How's that?
If you want me to pronounce "policy", I don't. I speak for myself, not others.
Unlike yourself, I don't consider myself the "quintessential spokesperson for American Ideals."
I'm one man, with one voice and one vote. And I do speak my mind, here, in person and in the voting booth. Or perhaps you hadn't noticed that on the boards?
But you go on ahead and be our spokesperson, OK? Being such a fine example of tolerance and other American ideals and all. ;)
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Originally posted by Airhead
How Bacon Bits saved the world
ROFL!!! Airhead, you did it again :) Keep it up! S!
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bounder
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Originally posted by Toad
I am totally opposed to the terrorists and terrorist acts like the occupation of the Moscow Theater.
Looks like you say this only because it's "politically correct". Standard western hypocricy.
If you have a solution to the above mentioned problem - pick up your gun, buy a ticket to Moscow - and I'll arrange you a trip to Chechnya in a local military commissariat.
Can anyone find me a link to Rudyard Kipling's "White Man's Burden"?
Go f$%k yourse ....er, leave us alone. er, go f... er, leave the world without your tender love to "democracy".
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Ya can't win, Toad. You're a barbarian on one side for not having a problem with the Russians burying the terrorists in pig. You a PC terrorist lover on the other.
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My goodness.
What a well-reasoned, factual, eloquent rebuttal.
I've said the same thing about terrorism since the beginning of the BBS, thanks very much. So your comment is the standard Stalinist character assassination? :D
Solution to the problem? Why no, I don't. Do you?
I don't have one for Palestine, either. Do you?
It seems the only thing that solves these problems of folks who take other folks land by force of arms is time. Centuries of it. Look at Northern Ireland. They're getting that one settled after only about 800 years or so. It went a bit quicker here in the US. First contact around 1500, land pretty much taken by force of arms by 1900, not much trouble since. Doesn't mean it couldn't flare up though.
Maybe you could let the Chechens have their land back? No, I guess not. Because you didn't take it by force of arms right? :D
Don't worry, the Israelis aren't going to give the Palestinians back their land either. So, you'll have company in the "current events".
Just for you:
The White Man's Burden (http://www.boondocksnet.com/ai/kipling/kipling.html)
Feeling the burden of re-conquering Chechnya again and again?
Very Best to you and yours.
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Thank you for 15 porn site ad pop-ups under your link.
What do you, a@##%ole know about stalinism?
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Ah, but Thrawn I know who I am and what I believe. While perhaps my poor skills of written expression may cause MrFish to misunderstand me or Boroda to conveniently forget what I've written, I do my best. Above all, I am true to myself.
If I'm wrong, I try to learn from it. If I'm ill-informed, I welcome correction. If I'm right, I stand by my beliefs.
And that's all there really is, I think.
I figure most guys here are the same way, too. Most wouldn't bother to participate and discuss if they weren't interested in learning something.
Of course, there are those who relish their proud disbelief of proven historical fact, but they're few and far between and usually quite entertaining to read!
See ya in the next mud-wrestle!
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LOL!
Sorry, chum. You wanted a link, I slapped it in Google and that's what I got. Next time I'll spend 5 hours searching out a link for you with no pop-ups.
Not.
You do know, of course, that there are free pop-up stopper programs out there don't you? That work so well you never even see them?
Stalinism? Enough to know that character assassination was often substituted for factual discussion. :D