Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: hblair on November 01, 2002, 12:01:39 AM
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Just wondering if there's any plans to implement some kinda system to balance country numbers more evenly. Rooks are outnumbered more than 2:1 by the knights tonight, and almost that by the bishops. It gets old being over-run on a regular basis. I've played this game a long time, It doesn't bother me so bad, I usually just up from a rear field in a fast plane and go goon hunting. I usually kill the goon and maybe one or two fighters before I get blasted. Or maybe up in an arado and kill barracks before they're resupplied 10 minutes later. That doesn't appeal to me much.
Someone brought up the fact that being a rook is tough these days. Of course they were met with the simple solution of "Just chang sides!" So simple a solution it's retarded. I can almost picture grape-ape saying that. If we ALL changed sides because we're outnumbered, then there would be NO third country. Compute that slowly in your mind people :). Of course there are easy solutions to the rooks petty #'s probs when a player from another country is giving 'em. ;)
Maybe if we all did go knight for a week people would see there's a problem. But then again, 80% of them would probably fight over the 5 remaining rooks. It would prolly be seen as a great oppurtunity to up GV and bomber points by running drunks to empty fields! What people will do for score and stats makes me wanna puke at times.
I honestly believe there are some here who would capture fields offline if the score would show up on the webpage. But that's a whole other story.
Sorry if this is too negative, but I needed to vent.
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I almost changed to Bish tonight.
I've been a Rook since I started AH in v1.03, excpet for some fun at the 2001 Con. The reason I didn't is because it doesn't solve anything. The broken gameplay would simply get more broken as the numbers swung even further against the Rooks.
People like to say that all sides have their turn in the bucket. That may be, but I haven't logged on once in the past three months and seen the Rooks anywhere but at the bottom, and almost always by a staggeringly large margin. I never saw any other side during their brief turn in the "bucket" outnumbered anywhere near this baddly or this consistantly. The Rooks have been the side in the bucket since November, 2001. True, they have had occasional days where they were on top, but the vast majority of the last year has seen the Rooks at the bottom.
How long is our turn in the bucket going to be?
More and more this is causing me to not play AH. I log on, fight a bit and then remember why I haven't played in five days. A few days later I'll log on again, and once again discover why I don't play anymore.
The aircraft I enjoy flying are usually offensive in nature, or at least do better on the offense. Aircraft like the Fw190A-5 and Mosquito Mk VI. When every fight is against 3 to 1 odds (Bish= 100; Knits=116; Rooks=50, some Bish and some Knits fighter eachother, 25 Rooks fighting on each front = about 3 to 1 odds) the Mosquito becomes a death trap and the 190A-5 becomes very difficult for your non-ace like me to use.
Its bad and getting worse guys. Something has to give.
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Wow Hblair, that post seems almost like something an Airwarrior flier would have said! BW has converted you!
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I agree, numbers imbalance is not only excessive, it's consistent and seems to be gradually getting worse as we get more and more players in the MA.
When the squad I'm in rotated to Rooks from Knights about a month ago, we lost several players--NOT because they had any special "feelings" for Knight, but because they couldn't stand having to always fight the sort of fights the Rooks always seem to be stuck with.
What do I hear from these guys? It's so much more fun to be Bish or Knights, you don't get ganged as much, kills are easier to get, etc.
That is why Rooks are in the bucket and are staying there.....it's just not as much fun for most players.
I stayed with my squad--I'll never leave them unless they leave AH :) --but it certainly is a test of my patience to fly Rooks. Being outnumbered in the MA doesn't bother me too much, but what DOES bother me is how often rooks only have a few CAPPED bases to fly from, or all our frontline bases damaged, or no Dar, etc. If I log on, see Rooks down to 5 bases with no Dar and outnumbered 2-1 by both other countries, then you bet I'm going to log right back off. Even I have my limits.
It's the MA strat system that only makes it worse--it is designed to "kick the loser when they're down".
IMO we need a strat system that somehow penalizes the country with an excessive numbers advantage, NOT the country with the least ability to defend itself. Or give some sort of bonus to the badly outnumbered country. Giving choice map location to the country that LOSES a reset was a good idea.
The "War" goes too far.....it needs to be fun even for the losing side, because few people will play a game to be the perpetual "whipping boy".
EDIT:
*After* posting this, I log on and behold, what do I see?
Rooks have 4 bases, 3 of which are damaged and ALL are capped. Yep, logged right back off. Not going to play a game where it'd involve luck just to get airborne.
J_A_B
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Thanks for staying with the squad Jab :) We have to stay for the same reason karnak has to. I do hope something is done soon though. Tonight I was vulched by a guy I respect a lot in the Main Arena for his 109 flying when we were down to two capped bases. I didn't feel bad for myself. I felt kinda bad for him.
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Getting vulched isn't a big deal to me, but getting vulched as often as we do is. I got a lil revenge tonight fellas. They just reset a few minutes ago. I zoomed down to the last field they captured and everybody was landing all their vulch points. I lined up with the north/south runway and sprayed it with 30mm cannon fire from my 480mph 109G10. I killed 4 of 'em and dewigned many more. :) It was pretty.
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well since I dont really fly for any country. I see what your going through and personally I Find Rooks are fun to fly with. Plenty of enemy to kill.. good people. So if it makes you rooks happier I will fly rooks alot more than I usaully do..:D
Maybe even out the odds a bit..hehe.;)
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I got my own bit of revenge as well. 8 proxy kills in a disabled panzer from knights trying to get enough pings to get the credit. It really was a silly evening all round. I don't mind though, because I'm sure Hitech and the community are hard at work to come up with a solution for this :D
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First of all, is not the same to fight 1 vs 4 and kill a single enemy than fighting 4 vs 1 and kill the alone enemy.
Based on that, add to the scores the population factor, having the most populated country always a multiplier factor of 1.0.
For example: Bish 100, Kights 75, Rooks 50.
The corresponding factors: Bish 1.0, Knights 1.5, Rooks 2.0.
And then apply these factors to all the scoring caterogies and to the perk points.
This is a very basic, but effective way, of rewarding the people substaining outnumbered countries.
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Mandobles idea has one big flaw: Beeing outnumbered depends on whether the two other countries with more numbers are fighting eachother or not. Last few days rooks have been luck.
Adjust score by enemy/friendly ratio in the area. (aircraft in the area are already identified for the range voice radio, so it shouldn't be impossible to add that to score).
Also a factor for relative E (enemy/(own+small offset)) would be nice, so vulching something at 0 GDN with 0 speed would score 0 points.
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Some squads stay with a country permanently. Nothing wrong with that IMO.
Some time back, there were squads that rotated countries each tour. That seems to have stopped and that is where part of the numbers imbalance lies, I think. I'd like to know when and if those squads that did this are gonna start rotating again, if at all.
I agree with hblair.........some guys are so score oriented, they will only fly for the country that has the overwhelming advantage in numbers. These are the guys you see on channel 1 taunting and talking smack about how good their country is, but when the numbers even out a bit, they are gone from the arena.
Play the game ya want to folks. But remember, what goes around comes around eventually.
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The MOL rotates every other TOD. We'll come to save you Rooks soon. ;)
As for a score multiplier based on relative numbers, it should be based on the friendly/enemy ratio IN ICON RANGE at the moment of the kill. Vultching would still be fun, but not rewarded with high scores. A 1v4 kill would be worth 16 times that of a 4v1 kill.
Of course, there are those who don't care about score....
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Originally posted by popeye
The MOL rotates every other TOD. We'll come to save you Rooks soon. ;)
Of course, there are those who don't care about score....
i can name at least one MOL who isn't one of those.
:D
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We are switching to rooks in tour 34 , does this pic look like we always fight rooks ?
We try and take on the hightest numbers mostly . I got to say it must suck a big one to be stuck in the bucket all the time . Cu soon in rook land
PS: Hell we lost one guy when we switched from bish to knights cause of the numbers , go figure .
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The unbalanced side thing is getting old fast. I don't really know what the solution is, but its like watching an old re-run over and over again.
When I was on last night, it was Knit 120, Bish 115 and Rook 51. Some guys dig being the down guy, lots of targets. But the rather consistent dead radar, same old maps and such...well, you all know what I mean.
Is something being plotted or tossed around to remedy this? Its like we're playing Dodgeball, and we Rooks are always the fat kids :)
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Change the frickin' strat system so concept of logistics, at least in a reasonable compromise with gameplay, effects how the game is played.
They want to bring on the hoarde? Fine. Ok.
But then at least reward the guys who have no choice but to play in a disadvantaged situation.
A certain country has more pilots? Fine.
But that S.H.O.U.L.D A.L.S.O. mean more planes, more ordnance, more bullets, more fuel and more organization needed to sustain the huge numbers.
As most Rooks are brave enough to pit their guts to fend of waves and wavs and waves of attacks every frickin' night, giving loads of freebie kills to the wimps infesting Bishops and Knights, please please please, reward us!
Let us know that if we are really brave and able enough to stop the onslaught, we will be rewarded in the way that "the enemy L.O.S.S.E.S. of materials and supplies were SOOOOO high that they cannot sustain their attack any longer."
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Give each country X amount of resources which are resupplied every Y amount of time by convoys to frontline air fields. Let's just say, enough amount to sustain a large furball of Z amount of people for three consecutive hours, and resupplies every half hour to sustain that X amount. If a certain country has more numbers of pilots, let that mean more amount of resources spent with each passing moment - every time a plane ups with fuels, bombs, rockets, ammunition and etc.
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Therefore, when the numbers balance is off, when one country has 2 xZ numbers, and other country has only 1/2 xZ numbers, the larger country will be able to sustain their numbers for about only 1.5(3 x1/2) hours, while the lesser country will be able to sustain combat for 6(3 x2) hours.
So, if a certain country would employ primitive brute-force tactics with dweebs and tards lunging bombs in kamikaze, hoardes of planes gathering to milkrun a base where 5~8 guys are defending, at least there is some hope for the out numbered that if they can hold the base and fend off attackers as best as they can, at some point the hoarde's gonna run out of steam.
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This would balance out the gameplay quite nicely, even better than fiddling with the perk ratios. Many people don't care about scores. They just want to have fun. So, if they want to have the sort of fun akin to gangbangers raping helpless people, fine. Just let them pay the price for it.
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It's quite simple and logical. Every situation has responsible outcome. More people = uses more supplies.
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Instead of infinite resources, give each country a finite supply. Make it to where the more planes that spawn from a field, the fuel supply at that base drops to where the pilots have to take a lower load of fuel, or wait for the resupply convoy to get there with a supply of bombs and rockets.............
That is a simplified summary, but it would help spread out the fights and might give folks incentive to keep sides balanced.......
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Give each country X amount of resources which are resupplied every Y amount of time by convoys to frontline air fields. Let's just say, enough amount to sustain a large furball of Z amount of people for three consecutive hours, and resupplies every half hour to sustain that X amount. If a certain country has more numbers of pilots, let that mean more amount of resources spent with each passing moment - every time a plane ups with fuels, bombs, rockets, ammunition and etc.
Yeah, that will stop the ones that game the rank system by shooting ord at friendly buildings right in their tracks...after killshooter is dumped that is :D
IMO, restricting resources like this would bring out howels of dissaproval against the lesser skilled pilots that some would 'think' are waisting THEIR valuable resources.
The possibility of even MORE gEneRalz in the MA isn't appealing to this subscriber.
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1. Restrictions will practically only kick in when the players bring it on to themselves. It would take some time and effort, but I believe the average numbers of aircrafts taking off per certain time can be measured and rounded up.
So, a field will be given resources that will sustain certain numbers for about for a certain time without resupplies.
So the numbers of available material will be set according to the results of the analogy. At balanced situations, the amount of supplies and resupply "ratio" would be set to levels where people most usually can enjoy furballs or prolonged fights without worry of supplies running short.
But, uneven the balance, when one coutry starts gaining large numbers, chooses to gangbang their enemies with the Hoarde - then that country will start using up resources more rapidly then the standard set rate.
People say restrictions limit people's choice, so that it limits their 15 dollars worth of right. But then again, heavily unbalanced numbers also deprives 15 dollars worth of fun and enjoyment of the pilots of the consistently outnumbered country. Therefore, whether they will bring the restriction onto themselves is also their choice: Pay the price for being in the largest country.
Some say, "hey, if you are so frustrated, then just join the other team".
I say, "NO. YOU guys join the lesser teams. Why does it have to be us leaving our country in times of peril when its not us who are breaking the balance?"
2. Bringing out howels of disapproval is exactly what this is aimed at.
AH has grown out of the stage where one~two squads rotating will effect game balance. The reason for this heavy unbalance is at some point(the months following these events that have transpired in consecutive turns: AW being dumped, AH upgraded, servers being renewed and finally, commercials going out in public television), new people came to pile up in AH and they weren't "distributed" in any sort of way(because, which country they would fly for is naturally their choice).
People chose the countries they want to fly for, and as newbies learning the game, they won't want to be in a outnumbered country. So, people avoid being in the Rooks, they choose Bishops and Knights. I'm sure the "image" and "name value" of how the countries are named also had to do with the numbers. "Knight" or a "Bishop" is always more cool than a "Rook". So, a vicious circle has formed. Rooks were first(last November) outnumbered by a little. Then, new players started joining the game, they avoided the Rooks. More people see the potential of AH and decide to sign up, and the Rooks are outnumbered even more.
With limited supplies kicking in, at some point Bishops or Knights might start encouraging newbies to go to Rooks, or consider moving their squad to Rooks.
Hey, are you in a population crisis? "Generals" start commanding people around so they don't 'waste' resources? Then COME to the LAND of OPPORTUNITY, the RICH LANDS where resources are plenty - just cross that border to the land of promise, outnumbered country!
3. If a super large country wants to fight and keep that numbers and still have fun, they would need faster resupplying. Considerable number of C-47s in "trains" would be needed. People might actually start 10~20 goon missions to move supplies from a depot(yes, the depot concept can be resurrected again) to frontline fields.
Remember, the ultimate premise is "more people = more resources used".
If they don't want to suffer the drawbacks of keeping a Hoarde, then at least they would need more numbers of regular "maintenance crew". More people will be required to supply fields in need at a regular rate, not just occasional 1~2 goon supplying fileds, or occasional HQ resupp. Therefore, that number of people will inevitably have to stay a non-combatant during the time they choose to run resupp duties to their country. This will help even out the numbers at the combat frontline - effectively 'balancing' the situation without 'balancing' the numbers.
What's that you say? No one wants to play a truck driver? This won't work? They'll be supply shortages because of this?
So what? It's the price you have to pay, not us. Be organized and make 10~20 man supply missions, instead of making dweebey 20 man kamikaze Typhoon missions. If you can't stay that organized, and you continuously suffer the pain of shortage...
Then come to us, Rooks!
4. Here's how an example of balance goes:
Basically, the strats will be laid out in this order:
HQ - factories - train station - depots - convoy - town - field.
Factories produce material, produced materials are first piled up train stations. The trains regularly travel back and forth depots and factories, piling up produced material at the depots. Truck convoys move material to the town... and the town will distribute materials to the field automatically.
1) If factories are hit, their production efficiency will go down maximum 25% Factories transfer materials to directly to the train station which is nearby very close.
2) If train stations are hit, the amount of produced material piled up at the station will be destroyed. If a factory has produced 100 materials, when train station is 75% destroyed the materials will be down to 75. In the case of train stations going completely down, it would still be 25 materials. The materials will never be comletely destroyed.
3) Depots work same as train stations. If depots are hit, the materials trains moved from the station to the depot will be destroyed in percentage. 50% depot destroyed, 50% of total material piled up destroyed. Never down to 0%, minimum 25%.
4) Towns will distribute material. Materials that pile up at the town will not be destroyed at all - instead, towns control the supply distribution. Materials keep piling up at the town, and every 1 hour, all the materials at the town will be directly transferred to the field.
5) Fields use up materials. The material count at the field can run to zero. The field strats will represent the capacity of the base to "contain" materials, not "the amount" of the materials. Therefore, when a base is resupplied 100 fuel per hour, if fuels are porked and down to 25%, the base only gets 25 fuel per hour.
*So, let's say it is 60 miles from the factory to the front line.
30 miles from the station to the depot
30 miles from the depot to town.
* Planes use 1 fuel for 100% fueled flight.
* It takes 20 minutes for the train to get to depot(90mph)
It takes 30 minutes for trucks to get to the town(60mph)
* Therefore, towns supply 600 material to field every 5 hours, because logistics cycle is 50 minutes, and town distribution cycle is 60 minutes.
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So, if average skill level pilots fly and survive 15 minutes per sortie, they fly four sorties per hour. Since every 100 fuel is resupplied per hour(and 200 fuel per fifth hour) when there are like 50 people swarming in one base - the Hoarde - the base is going to run out of fuel supplies in 30 minutes(two sortie time for average pilot), and the hoarde will wait for 30 minutes to get resupplied.
However, if only 5 people defend the base, they spend 20 fuel per hour. Even less if those five are capable of flying long sorties and survive. Even if all the fuels at base are porked, they still are resupplied at least 25 fuel. They can practically never have to worry about having to fly with 25% or 50% fuel since resupply overweighs the spent. If the attackers want to pork the base where low numbers are defending, they will have to either hit the depot(30 miles behind base), hit the train station, or the factory itself(both 60 miles behind base).
... As you can see, the drawbacks are clear for the numerous. More numbers will mean more responsibilities the people should think about. They better use the numbers advantages wisely, and manage it good, or else if they keep insisiting on lame-prettythang gangbangs with 30~40 guys taking off from a single base and moving around like locusts of armageddon, they gonna regret it.
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There are some things still needs to be worked out.. such as unused bases that keep piling up on supplies.
But I can say it's a good start.