Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: miko2d on November 05, 2002, 03:43:33 PM
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We, americans do enough bad things to criticise us for. No need to resort to lies and misleading statistics about us to show your superiority in some matters - because you do not have it!
This post was a reply in another thread but I see this kind of ignorance everywhere, so here are the data with references.
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Nashwan: There is a big difference between futher gun control in Britain, which had very few firearm crimes, and the US, which has a huge number .
It's rather like banning skiing and climbing to reduce the accident rate. It would have zero effect in the Netherlands, a large effect in Switzerland.
You are either lying here or ignorant of US conditions. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, assume ignorance and enlighten you.
Murder Offenders by Age, Sex, and Race, 2001 (excluding 9/11) (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_01/xl/01tbl2-6.xls):
White - 5174 (33.4%)
Black - 5521 (35.6%)
Other - 273
Unknown - 4520 (29.2%)
Assume the "unknown" split among white and black equally - even though IMO more unsolved crime is likely to involve blacks than whites.
Note that hispanics comprise almost 12% of the population but in US govt. statistics are counted as "whites" if criminals but often as "hispanics" if victims - which worsens white stats considerably - but let's pretend that everyone is white here - no hispanics.
Whites (+hispanics) that comprise 88% of the population totaled ~48% of murderers in 2001 while blacks who comprised 12% of the population totaled ~52% of murderers!
So the rate among whites is really at least 2.5 times lower than the total one for US. I believe that number would be quite in line with those of UK and other european countries!
Whites in USA mostly live separately from blacks - geographically, culturally, etc. So we really have two distinct countries interspersed on US territory - mostly white 1st-world country with non-remarkable statistics despite widespread gun ownership and 3rd-world african country wity typical 3-rd world african violence statistics...
It makes as much sense to limit gun-ownership rights of law-abiding whites because of crimes commited by blacks as it is to screw up Netherlands because of climbing deaths in Switzerland!
Not that I propose to limit gun-ownership of law-abiding blacks either - just want to show you there is not much difference between people in UK and similar people comprising majority of US population despite huge disparity in gun-ownership.
miko
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That's funny, to me Americans are foreigners.
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An odd observation from around here:
If someone was killed at a party, odds are 10:1 that the killer was hispanic.
If someone was killed on the street, odds are 10:1 that the killer was either black or Asian.
If someone was killed at home, odds are 10:1 the killer was white.
Just an insignificant observation from the last 35 years around Portland.
AKDejaVu
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Thrawn: That's funny, to me Americans are foreigners.
No offence ment - this is a US board. When I post in Russia, I am a "foreigner".
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d
No offence ment - this is a US board. When I post in Russia, I am a "foreigner".
miko
The board may be based in the US and owned by a US company. But your audience, this community, is certainly international.
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I gotta agree with DJV on that one.
Btw while we are tossing around these racial tendencies.
Car in front of me doing half the speed limit, afraid to merge. Odds- 100:1 the driver is Asian
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Thrawn, regardless of where the board is located or who the target audience may be, Canada still doesn't count. Silly Canucks!
SOB
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Gotta agree with SOB on that point.
AKDejaVu
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:(
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You are either lying here or ignorant of US conditions.
Sorry, I consider black Americans and Hispanic Americans to be American. Sad to see you don't.
Whites (+hispanics) that comprise 88% of the population totaled ~48% of murderers in 2001
US population = 280,000,000
87% non-black, according to the CIA World Factbook.
Say 244,000,000 whites, Hispanic etc.
7,400 murders by non-blacks.
1 murder per 33,000 people.
England and Wales
52,000,000 people
About 750 murders
1 murder per 70,000 people
In other words, your murder rate is still twice ours.
Now what do you think would happen if you removed the urban poor from Britain's statistics?
Blacks tend to be poorer and urban, which equals more crime. Every country has the same crime problem in it's inner cities, no matter what ethnic group inhabits them.
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Hey SOB,
....................../´¯/)
....................,/¯../
.................../..../
............./´¯/'...'/´¯¯/\
........../'/.../..../......./¨¯\
........('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...)
.........\.................'......./
..........\................ _.~´
............\..............(
..............\.............\....
:D
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Your skill with ansi art is still outweighed by your tuke wearing backbacon eating aboot saying genetics.
AKDejaVu
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LOL NASH :D
Can we use that in our siggy's?
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Doh! not another gun thread :( There aren't enough hours in the day!
Miko - No offence ment - this is a US board. When I post in Russia, I am a "foreigner".
And the electronic components used in the computers to access this board probably came from Taiwan.
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what's a tuke?
Originally posted by AKDejaVu
Your skill with ansi art is still outweighed by your tuke wearing backbacon eating aboot saying genetics.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Kanth
what's a tuke?
An ugly hat.
Everything I ever needed to know about Canadians I learned from watching Strange Brew.
AKDejaVu
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The price of freedom is reduced security.
Security and Freedom are mutually exclusive.
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Lol Deja.... like people take PORTLAND OREGON seriously. :D
Everything I learned about Portland I learned from coming inches away from falling out of a car doing 70 or so there while screeching past a two mile line up for a Madonna concert of all things. Which wasn't much. Oh, but Oregon does have some incredible trees and if you get a chance to see the magical sea lion caves, don't pass it up. Get this - sea lions, like, 100 yards away!
Portland....
What does it feel like to be living in the center of it all Deja?! . Hhm... thinking about it, we're brethen in a way. You are about as relevant to the rest of the US as Canada is. On second thought way less so. You'll get over it.
(though "Sometimes a Great Notion" wouldn't have been written were it not for Oregon...and that would be a shame).
Raise a beer! Coooohlookookookoolookoo! :D
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Of the people, for the people, by the people, it boils down to this .
In america we the people are the government, we tell the heads of state and the police what to do . And we the government choose to retain the right of the individual to defend his self and his own with leathal force by means of pistola and machette . The people have this power. When and if the power is ever removed from the people and given to the state we will by definition no longer be a democracy .
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On a side note . Does it bother the spanish that americans don't consider them to be caucasian ? I've allways wondered about that when I've had to fill out ethnicity questions .
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Hey guess why Emilio Steves's Father and brother changed their names to gain fame in Holly's wood.
I think there's a mindset that if you're not a WASP, you're not considered a caucasian by the establishment. Means that if you're catholic, white and speak Spanish you're not right. Inmidietly, the mindset is you're suppossed to be 5 feet tall, brown skinned, border crosser, burrito eating Mexican.
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Of course it bothers us... because it's plain wrong. The traits you associate with "spanish" or "hispanic" or "latino" people are in fact native american traits. For a Spanish the term "hispano" means only "spanish speaker"
Caucasian has bizarrely come to mean "Pale Northern European", just because "Aryan" got a bit of bad press the latest 60 years or so...
But to add fuzziness to all this stuff, Aryans where the supposed ancient people which sprang the Hindu, Persian, Greek, Latin, Celtic, Teutonic, Slavonic, and other races... A lot of non too white people there...
All this race stuff gets a little silly... as I cannot trace my ancestors I can't tell if I'm an Iberian, a Celt, a Latin, a Goth an Arab or Northern African. Probably a mixture of three or more of those in god knows what proportions... Thats going to make a mess of all those forms you have got there... :D
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I always thought that if I was spanish I might be offended that caucasian and hispanic are two seperate answers on a lot of forms I had to fill out in the US military . I think most americans assume hispanic=mestizo .
Living in texas I also often hear people missuse the word mexican as if it were an ethnicity .
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hispanic = person who primarily speaks spanish.
Ok miko2d, if demographically in the USA there is such a high crime rate among blacks, maybe its because demographically blacks are poorer, grow up with less education, and grow up in violent enviroments in a cycle that is hard to breach.
So it has nothing to do with race and color of skin, and more to do with the enviroment they are subjected to endure.
You whole arguement is completely skewed. And outdated, because things are different presently, the goverment started making changes a while ago, but those changes take decades to show results. But the results are starting and are very positive.
Unfortunately for you, that you have to endure having people of diferent races and backgrounds achieving goals highly over what you and your family ever accomplished, even when the odds are stacked against them. :)
Its pathetic that you have to desperately look for any kind of chart or un-scientific study to justify your irrational hate for anyone who is not of your same color or background.
But who cares now, all I have for the likes of you is pity, that you are a hateful, fearful, ignorant individual in a world that is changing faster than you can adjust :)
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No offence ment - this is a US board. When I post in Russia, I am a "foreigner
Firstly STFU
Secondly, no one outside the U.S cares!
:rolleyes:
CB
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CLAP CLAP CLAP!!!!
WTG Animal!!!!!
Animal for president!!!!!
:)
!
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Maybe. But maybe they grow up to recreate the nature of thier society in Africa.
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There are liars ..
damn liars
and Statisticians.. like miko.
Well said Animal, you beat me to it.
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hmmm american beer taste like piss.....horse piss that is......
we make better BEER.....hey
gimme my tuke back.....and pass me the pretzels:D
oh ya!!!...your opinion about my country means nothing....just like your "we are number 1" attitude means nothing.
shut up and make better BEER.
then ya can say "we are number 1":p
SlowHand
44th DiMMaK
P.S. keep voting republican.....its a good way of keeping the rest of the world hating you....ya need more Bush's.:eek:
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Sacrement
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:D
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By the way miko2d, arent you "Born, raised and served in the military in USSR. Currently a US citizen."
And now you are a full blown American using the term "foreigner" gratuitously?
Talk about hypocrisy.
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Nashwan: Sorry, I consider black Americans and Hispanic Americans to be American. Sad to see you don't.
You may believe any nonsense you want. Untill you substantiate your opinion, it's worthless to me. I listed several specific points why blacks are a separate population than whites.
Nashwan: In other words, your murder rate is still twice ours.
OK, we - the whites in US are intrinsically inferior to you - noble brits. Is that what you wanted to hear?
Anyway, because of 12% of the black population, our total murder rate would have been five times highter. And I would watch for the trends, not just static numbers. It seems that your unarmed population is quickly catching up to US crime rate.
Nashwan: Blacks tend to be poorer and urban, which equals more crime.
How come it does not work the same for equally poor urban chinese or koreans or indians or even mexicans? Those become middle class in a generation or two. It's not the income - it's 15+ point gap in IQ that determines the outcome.
beet1e: Miko - And the electronic components used in the computers to access this board probably came from Taiwan.
In US the guy who paid money becomes an owner of a product - no matter who was allowed to benefit by manufacturing it. The walls of my house are probably built using foreign steel and floord using canadian lumber. So what? It's my house, not theirs.
Samm: Does it bother the spanish that americans don't consider them to be caucasian ? I've allways wondered about that when I've had to fill out ethnicity questions?
Not spanish - hispanic. Different race altogether. Latino is another "white" term for those native americans. If you a a spanish, you are not supposed to label yourself "hispanic".
Innominate: The price of freedom is reduced security.
Security and Freedom are mutually exclusive.
That's a liberal lie intended to justify reducing of our liberties. Most government policies reduce our liberty and cause decrease in safety - drug war, immigration policy, subcidising underclass procreation, er... welfare policy, etc.
Animal: Ok miko2d, if demographically in the USA there is such a high crime rate among blacks, maybe its because demographically blacks are poorer, grow up with less education, and grow up in violent enviroments in a cycle that is hard to breach.
How come it suddenly became much worse after 1960 sivil-rights achievements? For 6 generations after slavery ended black family was OK - then it become exception.
I believe that 1.2 standard deviation difference in intelligence (about 15+ IQ points) a better explanation for majority of problems of many blacks in US and elsewhere.
As for the bunch of lables you threw at me in your ignorance, smiles nonwithstanding - I would not even bother to dispell it unless you try to substantiate each one of them.
but those changes take decades to show results... But the results are starting and are very positive.
So we will see in a few hundred years, right?... How come chinese and mexicans do not require decades to succeed? Do american racists love those?
midnight Target: There are liars .. damn liars and Statisticians.. like miko.
Why bother to justify you slander - as long as it's PC...
miko
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"In US the guy who paid money becomes an owner of a product - no matter who was allowed to benefit by manufacturing it. " - miko
Ok so ya didn't pay for the creation of this board, so you don't own it. You only benefit from it, much like the Brits, Australians, Canadians, French, whoever else. In fact the international readership on this board likely outnumbers the US readership.
So take yer "foreigner" BS and stuff it. I mean that in the most repectful way of course, not intended to be a personal slam resulting in lockage. :)
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Hahaha... is this guy for real?
From his profile:
"Born, raised and served in the military in USSR. Currently a US citizen." [/b]
And he is calling everyone a foreigner? LOL!!!
And on the racial stuff, this is either a troll, or one of the most moronic, hateful racists I have ever encountered, shy from that HBO documentary where all those rednecks shouted 'white power' and compared Hitler to Jesus Christ.
miko2d now I understand why you fled Russia and now live in the US as a foreigner[/i], its because our good Russian friends would have killed you sooner or later, only in America are dipshits like you allowed to express themselves.
But please, dont even think you are American, know your place. We dont want people from other countries thinking that you represent us when in fact you dont.
ATTENTION CANADIANS AND OTHER VISITORS FROM FAR AWAY LANDS, MIKO2D IS A HYPOCRIT FOREIGNER AND HE IN NO WAY REPRESENTS THE GENERAL AMERICAN ATTITUDE OR MENTALITY. PLEASE IGNORE HIS COMENTS FOR HE IS AS MUCH, OR EVEN LESS OF AN AMERICAN THAN YOU ARE. THANK YOU, DRIVE THRU.
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animal is on a roll.lol
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HELLO Miko!
Take a hint......STFU............
CB
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Animal: By the way miko2d, arent you "Born, raised and served in the military in USSR. Currently a US citizen."
And now you are a full blown American using the term "foreigner" gratuitously?
Talk about hypocrisy.
I reside here. I am a full citizen. I officially swore to defend to bear arms in defence of this country and I am capable of doing so. I pay taxes. I vote. US of A is my homeland - freely and deliberately chosen. I am just another productive immigrant in the "nation of immigrants".
I am definitely not a foreigner here. So I see no hypocricy.
In the post I did not use word "foreigner" as a derogatory term. I did not even use it towards american residents who do not have a full list of my credentials.
I merely referred to people living in different countries than the one where discussion takes place.
I seem make enough controvercial statement to make nonsensical nitpicking unnecessary.
My point was that USA consists of many entities - states, localities, enclaves with wildly different cultures, ethnisities, laws, customs, etc. Many people living outside america do not seem to realise this.
Incidentally, if you know anything about life and aducation in the USSR, how could I have become a racist there? If I became a racist - which means irrational dislike which is not at all true - what does that mean? Where did it come from?
My carreer here was very successfull, so setbacks and jobs taken away by black are not good explanations.
Nash: Ok so ya didn't pay for the creation of this board, so you don't own it.
You have a point. I assumed that this board was an american soil and it would be clear whom I referred to as "foreigners" - while I do not even know which country the HTC is incorporated in. I should have used different term than "foreigner" if only to avaid this commotion.
But you can hardly accuse me of being xenofobic to non-american - since my profile clearly states I am an immigrant myself.
Whatever animal claims, I just ment "foreigner" not current or past resident resident of USA.
Animal: We dont want people from other countries thinking that you represent us when in fact you dont.
I thought we americans were too proud of our multiculturalism to even conceive of someone "representing" us.
Anyway, "The Bell Curve" bestseller and also "The g Factor" and other books were written and published here by american scientists. I did not bring them here with me. The first I ever heard of black-white IQ discrepancy was in 1996, quite a few years after I came here.
I do not have much regard to the "white supremacicts" - I do not believe that blacks or any other races are "evil". I believe that intelligence as any other non-discrete factor varies in populations that evolved separately over millenia.
The whites are only smarter now because countless generations of our grand-grand... uncles and aunts failed to reproduce because of being less-intelligent than their brothers and sisters - our ancestors.
Living conditions were very different and survival value of intelligence varied in various places. So the evolution went at different rates for different factors.
Due to specifics of geography, climate and availoiabilty of certain resources and shortage of others, europeans and asians switched to urban/agrarian lifestyle which put premium on restraint, foresight and planning abilities and even literacy and made intelligence more important for survival/propagation.
The sub-saharan africa stayed hunter-getherer and primitive cattle-herding till relatively recently, so the evolution pressures there were different.
It's not just intelligence. People lived longer in civilised societies, were subjected to frequent epidemics, contaminants, relative abundance of food, especially fat, sugar and salt. At the same time physical strength was less important.
So evolution was able to act on deseases like cancer that affect older people (while hunters-gatherers have little chance to grow older), immune system, food-related deseases, etc.
"The Germs, Guns and Steel" by Jared Diamond is a good book - even though he does not make the evolutionary conclusion.
Blacks are often physically stronger/faster than whites and have better reaction times but they do not have as many genes imparting resistance/immunity to plague (and AIDS), they much more often suffer from cancer, diabetes (diet), hypertension (exessive salt?), obesity (excessive sugar, fat absorbtion/craving, sedentary lifestyle), allergies (contaminants), more frequent low birth weight even in apparently healthy (and wealthy) mothers, etc. They did develop resistance to area-specific deseases like malaria which is not much help here. Those health issues obviously make conditions of blacks somewhat worse.
There a dozens of known gene alleles that are exclusive to white or black races.
Those differences are obvious - wealthy blacks suffer much more from those afflictions than whites. The medical literature is full of those and is not considered rasist. Why should intelligence be any different?
Low-intelligence whites suffer from exactly the same social problems as lower-intelligence blacks.
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In "Why Race Matters" Professor Michael Levin shows that the IQ difference between Europeans and black Africans has had more than enough time to develop during the estimated 4,400 generations since the two groups split from a common ancestor. According to his calculation,it would have required a rate of selection per generation of 0.000106 against recessive genes, a very small rate of genetic change that is the equivalent to a change in 11 individuals per 100,000 per generation. In nature this is an extremely slow rate of evolutionary change.
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Of course you do not seem interested in substantiation of anything said here - either you do not want to know or already know and forgot to mention your sources. Care to list them?
Cherlie: Take a hint......STFU.
Sorry. My civil rights are in peril here. Because population of an african country behaves like a population of any other african country, my rights should somehow should be abridged - the right to equal treatment (quote systems), to speak freely (PC rules), to arm myself and many others.
Even if I were really so stupid as to irrationally turn away a capable black applicant and hire less capable white for my business - thus benefitting non-racist, especially black-owned business, where is the harm to anyone but myself?
I believe that welfare and preferential treatment destroyed black community and family here, not imaginary racism.
miko
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BTW, if there is no objective reason for disproportionate failure of blacks in free society of US - that means that whites along with asians and even hispanics are evil people specifically and irrationally hating blacks but not each other. I am not evan talking about Africa.
Wouldn't that be rasist to believe so? And offensive to whites who are sacrificing their rights and income to improve blacks' lot? You call that a sham effort?
How come liberal and black leaders - especially in black-populated and black dominated localities and school districts (Washington D.C.) with highest expence per pupil do not call for more eduation (like hispanics do) to bring blacks to the same standard as whites but call for lowering standards for blacks via preferential treatment?
Doesn't that mean they do not believe blacks are capable to succeed unassisted - ever? That there is no point trying to educate them?
Ponder those questions. Not everyone is an enemy who dumps on you...
miko
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nigga, please.
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That's currently a US Citizen, which makes him an American and NOT a foreigner.
I don't care how upset you are about what he said, telling him to know his place??? and that American citizens that originated from other countries don't represent us??
If they are american citizens they most certainly do.
Where the hell do you think american citizens came from?? we certainly didn't start on this continent.
He has a different opinion than you, get over it, there are many many people who differ from you, it's called diversity and it's a HUGE part of the american culture.
I don't see him attacking you personally and calling you names.
He's not even directing his posts to you personally.
If you want to address how you disagree with what he said that's one thing, it's another entirely to attack him.
wipe the froth off of your chin and make your points.
He's one American in 28 million who has an opinion that he is discussing and he doesn't claim to represent anyone other than himself.
walk away for a while then come back when yer not this upset and then you can make posts that show why you disagree with him.
Originally posted by Animal
Hahaha... is this guy for real?
From his profile:
"Born, raised and served in the military in USSR. Currently a US citizen."
And he is calling everyone a foreigner? LOL!!!
And on the racial stuff, this is either a troll, or one of the most moronic, hateful racists I have ever encountered, shy from that HBO documentary where all those rednecks shouted 'white power' and compared Hitler to Jesus Christ.
miko2d now I understand why you fled Russia and now live in the US as a foreigner[/i], its because our good Russian friends would have killed you sooner or later, only in America are dipshits like you allowed to express themselves.
But please, dont even think you are American, know your place. We dont want people from other countries thinking that you represent us when in fact you dont.
ATTENTION CANADIANS AND OTHER VISITORS FROM FAR AWAY LANDS, MIKO2D IS A HYPOCRIT FOREIGNER AND HE IN NO WAY REPRESENTS THE GENERAL AMERICAN ATTITUDE OR MENTALITY. PLEASE IGNORE HIS COMENTS FOR HE IS AS MUCH, OR EVEN LESS OF AN AMERICAN THAN YOU ARE. THANK YOU, DRIVE THRU. [/B]
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You fail to see my point?
He uses the term "ignorant foreigners" when he fits that description himself, by exact definition.
He makes a post, addressing people as ignorant foreigners (funny, they are sitting at their homes in their own countries... how can they be foreigners?) and then rambles on as if he were the descendant of uncle sam.
I dont ever even use the word foreigner, but I made those posts only to give him a dose of his own medicine. He is being hypocritical and extremely bigoted, he may not be addressing me personally and I aknowledge his right to free speech, but guess what, I will use mine to openly defend the morals of the mayority of true good Americans as people of other countries see them.
Oh, and something tells me you are posting out of knee jerk reaction and paid no attention to what I said in this thread and others. You come here and tell us that we have to be sensitive about the feelings and opinions of a hateful, disrespectful bigot who dismisses logic and talks lies, and then poorly tries to back them with data that he pulled out of questionable sources.
I dont care if you agree with him or not, but dont tell me to respect and be sensitive to one of the most despicable persons I have met on this BBS.
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Not spanish - hispanic. Different race altogether. Latino is another "white" term for those native americans. If you a a spanish, you are not supposed to label yourself "hispanic".
You better tell the inmigration officers, I recall more than a few incidents, even one involving a famous spanish writer who checked the "white" box in the form...
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You know how to piss off a spanish person?
Call 'em mexican!
-SW
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OK, we - the whites in US are intrinsically inferior to you - noble brits. Is that what you wanted to hear?
No, I don't believe in that sort of racist crap. I don't think there are any master races, not even my own.
American has a higher murder rate for a very obvious reason. Guns are very effective tools for killing. Americans have easy access to them.
Anyway, because of 12% of the black population, our total murder rate would have been five times highter. And I would watch for the trends, not just static numbers. It seems that your unarmed population is quickly catching up to US crime rate.
I doubt it. The US rate has been going down because of better law enforcement and a better economy. The economy isn't booming anymore, the murder rate in the US is going up.
You don't seem to understand that every western country has an urban poor population. They are involved in more crimes than affulent suburbanites.
You think Manchester and inner London have the same murder rate as Buckinghamshire?
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duh!!!
Where's London:D
damn limeys:eek:
running that way------>>>>
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I didn't fail to see your point, I disagreed with it.
My post addressed yours and pointed out that I think you are wrong (about the personal attacks and him being a foreigner) and I posted why.
I also encouraged you to post why you think he's wrong without the personal attacks.
if you question his sources say so, or post some better sources or whatever..(just a suggestion)
even your post to me was much less ferocious than I expected it to be I hope that is a sign of calming. (not changing yer mind, just calming)
If you feel you are defending someone, who is it? And did they ask you to?
Originally posted by Animal
You fail to see my point?
He uses the term "ignorant foreigners" when he fits that description himself, by exact definition.
He makes a post, addressing people as ignorant foreigners (funny, they are sitting at their homes in their own countries... how can they be foreigners?) and then rambles on as if he were the descendant of uncle sam.
I dont ever even use the word foreigner, but I made those posts only to give him a dose of his own medicine. He is being hypocritical and extremely bigoted, he may not be addressing me personally and I aknowledge his right to free speech, but guess what, I will use mine to openly defend the morals of the mayority of true good Americans as people of other countries see them.
Oh, and something tells me you are posting out of knee jerk reaction and paid no attention to what I said in this thread and others. You come here and tell us that we have to be sensitive about the feelings and opinions of a hateful, disrespectful bigot who dismisses logic and talks lies, and then poorly tries to back them with data that he pulled out of questionable sources.
I dont care if you agree with him or not, but dont tell me to respect and be sensitive to one of the most despicable persons I have met on this BBS.
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Originally posted by miko2d
Animal: By the way miko2d, arent you "Born, raised and served in the military in USSR. Currently a US citizen."
And now you are a full blown American using the term "foreigner" gratuitously?
Talk about hypocrisy.
I reside here. I am a full citizen. I officially swore to defend to bear arms in defence of this country and I am capable of doing so. I pay taxes. I vote. US of A is my homeland - freely and deliberately chosen. I am just another productive immigrant in the "nation of immigrants".
I am definitely not a foreigner here. So I see no hypocricy.
In the post I did not use word "foreigner" as a derogatory term. I did not even use it towards american residents who do not have a full list of my credentials.
I merely referred to people living in different countries than the one where discussion takes place.
I seem make enough controvercial statement to make nonsensical nitpicking unnecessary.
My point was that USA consists of many entities - states, localities, enclaves with wildly different cultures, ethnisities, laws, customs, etc. Many people living outside america do not seem to realise this.
Incidentally, if you know anything about life and aducation in the USSR, how could I have become a racist there? If I became a racist - which means irrational dislike which is not at all true - what does that mean? Where did it come from?
My carreer here was very successfull, so setbacks and jobs taken away by black are not good explanations.
Nash: Ok so ya didn't pay for the creation of this board, so you don't own it.
You have a point. I assumed that this board was an american soil and it would be clear whom I referred to as "foreigners" - while I do not even know which country the HTC is incorporated in. I should have used different term than "foreigner" if only to avaid this commotion.
But you can hardly accuse me of being xenofobic to non-american - since my profile clearly states I am an immigrant myself.
Whatever animal claims, I just ment "foreigner" not current or past resident resident of USA.
Animal: We dont want people from other countries thinking that you represent us when in fact you dont.
I thought we americans were too proud of our multiculturalism to even conceive of someone "representing" us.
Anyway, "The Bell Curve" bestseller and also "The g Factor" and other books were written and published here by american scientists. I did not bring them here with me. The first I ever heard of black-white IQ discrepancy was in 1996, quite a few years after I came here.
I do not have much regard to the "white supremacicts" - I do not believe that blacks or any other races are "evil". I believe that intelligence as any other non-discrete factor varies in populations that evolved separately over millenia.
The whites are only smarter now because countless generations of our grand-grand... uncles and aunts failed to reproduce because of being less-intelligent than their brothers and sisters - our ancestors.
Living conditions were very different and survival value of intelligence varied in various places. So the evolution went at different rates for different factors.
Due to specifics of geography, climate and availoiabilty of certain resources and shortage of others, europeans and asians switched to urban/agrarian lifestyle which put premium on restraint, foresight and planning abilities and even literacy and made intelligence more important for survival/propagation.
The sub-saharan africa stayed hunter-getherer and primitive cattle-herding till relatively recently, so the evolution pressures there were different.
It's not just intelligence. People lived longer in civilised societies, were subjected to frequent epidemics, contaminants, relative abundance of food, especially fat, sugar and salt. At the same time physical strength was less important.
So evolution was able to act on deseases like cancer that affect older people (while hunters-gatherers have little chance to grow older), immune system, food-related deseases, etc.
"The Germs, Guns and Steel" by Jared Diamond is a good book - even though he does not make the evolutionary conclusion.
Blacks are often physically stronger/faster than whites and have better reaction times but they do not have as many genes imparting resistance/immunity to plague (and AIDS), they much more often suffer from cancer, diabetes (diet), hypertension (exessive salt?), obesity (excessive sugar, fat absorbtion/craving, sedentary lifestyle), allergies (contaminants), more frequent low birth weight even in apparently healthy (and wealthy) mothers, etc. They did develop resistance to area-specific deseases like malaria which is not much help here. Those health issues obviously make conditions of blacks somewhat worse.
There a dozens of known gene alleles that are exclusive to white or black races.
Those differences are obvious - wealthy blacks suffer much more from those afflictions than whites. The medical literature is full of those and is not considered rasist. Why should intelligence be any different?
Low-intelligence whites suffer from exactly the same social problems as lower-intelligence blacks.
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In "Why Race Matters" Professor Michael Levin shows that the IQ difference between Europeans and black Africans has had more than enough time to develop during the estimated 4,400 generations since the two groups split from a common ancestor. According to his calculation,it would have required a rate of selection per generation of 0.000106 against recessive genes, a very small rate of genetic change that is the equivalent to a change in 11 individuals per 100,000 per generation. In nature this is an extremely slow rate of evolutionary change.
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Of course you do not seem interested in substantiation of anything said here - either you do not want to know or already know and forgot to mention your sources. Care to list them?
Cherlie: Take a hint......STFU.
Sorry. My civil rights are in peril here. Because population of an african country behaves like a population of any other african country, my rights should somehow should be abridged - the right to equal treatment (quote systems), to speak freely (PC rules), to arm myself and many others.
Even if I were really so stupid as to irrationally turn away a capable black applicant and hire less capable white for my business - thus benefitting non-racist, especially black-owned business, where is the harm to anyone but myself?
I believe that welfare and preferential treatment destroyed black community and family here, not imaginary racism.
BTW, if there is no objective reason for disproportionate failure of blacks in free society of US - that means that whites along with asians and even hispanics are evil people specifically and irrationally hating blacks but not each other. I am not evan talking about Africa.
Wouldn't that be rasist to believe so? And offensive to whites who are sacrificing their rights and income to improve blacks' lot? You call that a sham effort?
How come liberal and black leaders - especially in black-populated and black dominated localities and school districts (Washington D.C.) with highest expence per pupil do not call for more eduation (like hispanics do) to bring blacks to the same standard as whites but call for lowering standards for blacks via preferential treatment?
Doesn't that mean they do not believe blacks are capable to succeed unassisted - ever? That there is no point trying to educate them?
Ponder those questions. Not everyone is an enemy who dumps on you...
miko
miko
Bravo, I'm with miko on this one.
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these two can look after themselves..give em room! give em room!
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Ferocious? more like condescending. None of my posts were ad-homs, I always had an arguement to back me up.
He calls others ignorant foreigners, I point out that he is also a foreigner, and an ignorant one at that. He IS a foreigner by the definition of the word, and he is ignorant too, because his whole data was already disproved by scientific research, so he is ignorant to the facts.
See? what I say is no less a personal attack than what he said.
He says blacks have a genetically higher tendency to be more agressive and less intelligent than whites, I point out that is completly false and that his sources are sketchy. Kanth, do you want me to pull my true scientific facts about the human genome that completly disprove his WHOLE racial arguement?
Who am I defending? maybe the millions of blacks (including ME) that miko believes and tries to prove tend to be less intelligent and more agressive than the white race (but he doesnt address anyone specifically, he says its generally, so it makes it OK! :rolleyes: )
And he is not posting an opinion, he is posting what he strongly believes are facts.
When you say something, not as an opinion but as a fact, you are open to being corrected as ardously as anyone cares to, and I do.
And, as I already said that you seemed to ignore, his whole racial demographic data is completly un-scientific because it doesnt take into consideration that a HUGE percentage of the black population grows and lives in the less affluent parts of society, wich, as Nashwan pointed out, always tend to have a higher crime rate. It has NOTHING to do with genes, and a lot to do with psychology, sociology, and even political philosophy if you wanna go that deep.
Am I clearer now or are you gonna dismiss my post again and claim that I am ad-homing miko2d with no arguement to disprove his point?
:rolleyes:
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Ferocious? more like condescending. None of my posts were ad-homs, I always had an arguement to back me up.
:rolleyes:
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His post starts with "We Americans"
that makes it clear that non-americans are the foreigners he's speaking of, of which he is not one.
That's clear in the first two words of his first post.
no matter how strongly he believes his opinion to be, it's still his opinion. (you don't make facts by strongly believing in them, science isn't religion)
If he presents facts with data to back them up, then it ceases to be his opinion. It then falls upon the people who collected and published that data.
Yes, I'd like to see where you are speaking from, if you have knowledge about the subject matter in this thread why don't you share it so we can see why you are saying what you are saying?
I have a fairly open mind, I'd like to see information from both sides, since you two have squared off.
If i were going to dismiss your posts, I wouldn't bother spending any time replying to you. I believe I've been fairly consistent in that behavior on these boards.
Has it occured to you that electing yourself to speak for millions based on skin color doesn't help your argument? I wouldn't presume to do that in any case.
Let me show you that I'm listening, you are saying that the crime level is due to poverty etc and not race. Show it. Why wouldn't you show that?
Now, why do all of these black people grow and live in the less affluent parts of society? Why is that?
btw, you are not clearer now, just still clear.
Originally posted by Animal
Ferocious? more like condescending. None of my posts were ad-homs, I always had an arguement to back me up.
He calls others ignorant foreigners, I point out that he is also a foreigner, and an ignorant one at that. He IS a foreigner by the definition of the word, and he is ignorant too, because his whole data was already disproved by scientific research, so he is ignorant to the facts.
See? what I say is no less a personal attack than what he said.
He says blacks have a genetically higher tendency to be more agressive and less intelligent than whites, I point out that is completly false and that his sources are sketchy. Kanth, do you want me to pull my true scientific facts about the human genome that completly disprove his WHOLE racial arguement?
Who am I defending? maybe the millions of blacks (including ME) that miko believes and tries to prove tend to be less intelligent and more agressive than the white race (but he doesnt address anyone specifically, he says its generally, so it makes it OK! :rolleyes: )
And he is not posting an opinion, he is posting what he strongly believes are facts.
When you say something, not as an opinion but as a fact, you are open to being corrected as ardously as anyone cares to, and I do.
And, as I already said that you seemed to ignore, his whole racial demographic data is completly un-scientific because it doesnt take into consideration that a HUGE percentage of the black population grows and lives in the less affluent parts of society, wich, as Nashwan pointed out, always tend to have a higher crime rate. It has NOTHING to do with genes, and a lot to do with psychology, sociology, and even political philosophy if you wanna go that deep.
Am I clearer now or are you gonna dismiss my post again and claim that I am ad-homing miko2d with no arguement to disprove his point?
:rolleyes:
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Bell curve blatant errors: interview with an expert on stats
http://www.skeptic.com/03.3.fm-sternberg-interview.html
The Bell Curve flattened:
http://www-thphys.physics.ox.ac.uk/users/AndrewRutenberg/FILES/IQ.html
I have more. Mio2d, the Bell Curve was based on flawes assumptions and mininterpretations of data, and on deliberate lies.
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how will you ever know if race plays a significant role in anything if no one can study it honestly?
the current paradigm is that you can't attribute anything negative to a racial group - only positive things.
if you dare make a conclusion that would hurt someone's feelings it's immediately dismissed. that's great for making people feel good about themselves but it doesn't seem to help the search for reality much -
ex: if it works out factually that one race commits more crimes you simply adjust the explanation to accommodate that - displacing the blame to some other factor.
if the most likely conclusions are automatically off the table as possibilities it doesn't leave much to study.
i have to give miko some credit (yet again) for having an unpopular viewpoint despite our obvious 'problem areas' ;)
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Yes, I'd like to see where you are speaking from, if you have knowledge about the subject matter in this thread why don't you share it so we can see why you are saying what you are saying?
I have a fairly open mind, I'd like to see information from both sides, since you two have squared off.
If i were going to dismiss your posts, I wouldn't bother spending any time replying to you. I believe I've been fairly consistent in that behavior on these boards.
Has it occured to you that electing yourself to speak for millions based on skin color doesn't help your argument? I wouldn't presume to do that in any case.
Let me show you that I'm listening, you are saying that the crime level is due to poverty etc and not race. Show it. Why wouldn't you show that?
Now, why do all of these black people grow and live in the less affluent parts of society? Why is that?
btw, you are not clearer now, just still clear.
LOL, I know where you are coming from, and I know when someone tries to hide their feelings behind logic.
But for the sake of entertainment, I will put as much scientific information on the table as I can find online. Though most of my sources come from books and college.
But of course all the information I posted you have already discredited because you believe science is all faith. LOL
I will only post links because there is simply too much text to fit into one thread. I understand that you are not as interested in these studies as you are in trying to discredit me for the single reason that I am arguing something that you very probably believe (thought you may not admit it. with all the personal attacks going in this bbs, that you chose this thread, and to argue with me on this issue)
What all this data will tell you, in a sentence: studies have shown that as much as 85% of all human variation occurs between individuals of the same population while less than 10% of the variation was between the major races.
And I find silly that you ask me to bring some kind of proof that the less affluent neiborghs and comunities in America are populated mostly by minorities (blacks, hispanics, etc). Are you serious? that would be like asking me to prove that middleclass suburban america is populated by whites in mayority. Its the obvious truth and anyone who lives in America knows this.
On racial diferences and the human genome projet:
http://racerelations.about.com/library/weekly/aa021501a.htm
http://www.msm.edu/Health_Disparities/wkshop5/hp12.htm
http://www.the-scientist.com/asp/Registration/login.asp?redir=http://www.the-scientist.com/yr1996/nov/notebook_961111.html (requieres registration but its a good site, get one)
http://www.mndaily.com/daily/2000/07/05/editorial_opinions/o0705/
http://www.georgetown.edu/research/nrcbl/scopenotes/sn17.html
http://vulab.ias.unu.edu/GlobalEthos/papers/minakshi.html
Here are some books that would enlighten you on the sobject, if you really mean business when you say you want to see both sides, you will go thru the trouble of aquiring them. But I will not open them, scan them to put data in this thread, that is up to you, I feel I have done enough.
The Human Genome (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0333971434/qid=1036617667/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/102-3204333-6203339)
The Intelligent Genome (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/3540671668/qid=1036617667/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/102-3204333-6203339?v=glance&s=books)
The Common Thread (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0309084091/qid=1036617667/sr=1-7/ref=sr_1_7/102-3204333-6203339?v=glance&s=books)
Faith and opinion will never be good substitutes for good old science. The NAZIs tried very hard to go against this on this very issue but all they ended up was swimming in their own roadkill.
I'm tired of repeating myself here, why dont we change swords; you and miko2d try to disprove modern genetic studies and its findings, and I defend them? Because its very hard to convince people on a subject they seem to be ignorant of.
So, YOU prove to ME, with scientific data (not roadkill polls) that miko's data on racial specific behaviour is correct.
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Originally posted by mrfish
how will you ever know if race plays a significant role in anything if no one can study it honestly?
the current paradigm is that you can't attribute anything negative to a racial group - only positive things.
No, the problem is that neither positive or negative things have been found on this issue. In fact it is a non issue, but people on both sides keep TRYING to make it one.
According to modern genetic studies there is simply no way that there can be a difference between races when it comes to behaviour. There is no black or white when it comes to this.
You can tell me that you believe blacks are more agresive, or score less IQ (wich is a skewed test), because they are brought up to be that way, or because of their culture, and that you dislike them because of that, and I will accept that.
But not this.
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Now you have posted links to back up your position, was that so hard?
If you think I ask for too much, just say so. It's up to you what you post. I can imagine you not wanting to hunt around for stuff to back up what you say. It's tedious.
You could have just well told me to f off. :)
I would change swords with you but I never had the sword you are trying to give to me. Miko doesn't speak for me or my race as far as I know.
I merely said he's not a foreigner and that your behavior didn't help your argument. Which is true.
And I find silly that you ask me to bring some kind of proof that the less affluent neiborghs and comunities in America are populated mostly by minorities
that's not what I asked for. I asked why so many blacks (a higher percentage of total population than whites I'm guessing from what you said) live in less affluent neighborhoods.
I'm certainly not saying that poverty is only a problem for blacks because that's simply not true.
Originally posted by Animal
I'm tired of repeating myself here, why dont we change swords; you and miko2d try to disprove modern genetic studies and its findings
As far as my motivation, well I'd like to see the personal attacks stop. They are, as many have said, the last resort when you have no valid argument. They are boring and they look ignorant.
As far as this being the only personal attack thread I've made a response to that isn't true. It's however the only one where I didn't think the person involved deserved a private email.
This explanation wasn't owed you, btw, it was given out of the kindness of my black heart.
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none of those things adequately explain our commonsense observations enough though. while stereotypes aren't ever 100% accurate they aren't arbitrary either
i don't know enough about genetics to properly defend or attack it's conclusions but i have working eyeballs and a good memory and to say we all pan out the same is silly.
everyone notices racial differences despite years of training not to. the first thing i see in the morning and the last thing i see at night is someone with a flat nose and beautiful slanty eyes - i've spent a lot of time thinking about it- it's a trip- we're nowhere near the same but we have a great and honest respect for each other's races.
'superior' is really subjective is the problem, as much as one race succeeds at one thing it fails at another. it'd be near impossible to call an over-all winner in the superiority contest but to say they can't be different disregards observation.
even in strict things like the path of an electron through some kind of field or something - it rarely turns out like it is 'supposed to' that's the beauty of science mac - don't bust your head open worrying about it - your argument is sensible i just don't agree.
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I thinks its time to start moving some folks off this board.