Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Sixpence on November 05, 2002, 11:49:29 PM
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http://www.everblue.net/1942/
Under Quadalcanal, read the "second savo" , scroll down and read what happened to the Battleship Hiei. This site is great reading on the battle in the pacific, and some great pics too. Bring the Battleship to AH, add them to fleets and set 12k to sink.Make them the ship that controls the end of the fleet(instead of the CV).
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Hiei wasn't a battleship. She was a battlecruiser.
The only Japanese battleships were the Nagato, Mutsu, Yamato and Musashi.
Only the Nagato survived the war. She was expended at the Bikini atoll nuclear tests.
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Well, here are some facts,she was initially a battlecruiser, then modernized and reclassified as a Battleship, here, read.
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-fornv/japan/japsh-h/hiei2.htm
In 1936, after Japan had withdrawn from the naval limitations treaties, Hiei entered Kure Dockyard for an extensive modernization. This completely restored her combatant status and armament, gave her a longer hull and much more powerful machinery for a speed of over thirty knots. She was also used as the prototype for several features later used in the huge battleships Yamato and Musashi.
Now classified as a battleship, Hiei returned to active service in early 1940 and was again the Emperor's flagship at the Yokohama Naval review in October 1940. Her high speed made her very useful as a companion to aircraft carriers, and she was part of the striking force that attacked Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941. In April 1942, Hiei took part in the powerful raid that bloodied the British Navy and merchant marine in the Indian Ocean area. She was a unit of the Covering Group during the Battle of Midway in early June and immediately thereafter was sent to the North Pacific to support Japanese operations in the Aleutian Islands.
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We called her a battleship, but she never had the armor to justify that. She was always a battlecruiser with paper for armor.
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You read the beating she took at quadalcanal? Not bad for lightly armored.Also, when originally laid down she was over 26k tons, as big as american classified Battleships laid down at the same time. See USS Wyoming laid down 2 years earlier at 26k ton.
Hiei : She was the first of ten Japanese battleships lost to enemy action in World War II.
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If you do a very small ammount of research you'll find that battlecruisers were frequently heavier than battleships.
Don't confuse a battlecruiser with a cruiser. They are completely different beasts.
For example, the British battlecruiser HMS Hood weighed in at 42,450 tons whereas the very modern British battleship HMS King George V weighed 38,000 tons.
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Originally posted by Karnak
We called her a battleship, but she never had the armor to justify that. She was always a battlecruiser with paper for armor.
What did the Japanese classify her as, a BB or a BC? If they classified her as a BB, than there's nothing wrong with using that appellation. There's nothing wrong with qualifying that designation of course, but neither is it absolutely necessary. I have a pretty good reference on the size, speed, armament, and armor of all major combat types from WWI and WWII. I'll check and see what it says of the Hiei. I'm pretty sure it classifies her as a BB, but I'll compare her to other BB's and BC's.
In general, other factors besides armor thickness were considered when determining what class to put something in. The weaknesses inherent in WWI BC designs went beyond the relatively thin armor (as compared to main battery calibre). Also remember that the Washington Naval Treaty limited the size and capabilities of ships, particularly battleships. It is possible that under those restrictions the Japanese's definition of what qualified as a battleship where different than other nation's ideas. If she was a battleship by their standards (as constrained by the WNT), than correcting everyone who calls her a BB is nitpicking.
But to answer the main suggestion that started this thead, yes! Give us a BB or two. However, we need a real damage model to go with it in that case, better control (such as variable speed and the ability to take the helm directly), and decent fire-control (range finders up on the range-finding towers/superstructure, where they belong, and linked battery fire). :D
P.S. Just read Sixpence' link...very nice. Sounds like Japan considered her a Battleship after her refit.
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Lol Oed, actually, zeros were sent to CAP the Hiei, but I believe 4 of them were shot down. Check out the link at the beginning of the thread. This is "second savo" under Quadalcanal. Each battle lists all the ships involved and gives alot of detail of the action.
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Excellent links!! I really look foreward someday to this as an addition to the fleets already in place. One of the greatest things I have seen so far was the non carrier task forces in other scenarios. I like the idea of multiple BB's/CA's and DD's at point blank range slugging it out. Great topic!