Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: DingHao2 on October 01, 2001, 04:49:00 PM
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The Il-2 community has been provided with editing tools and information to help out the company with making new planes.
So why not release editing information and tools to the modders in our community so we can help you guys out? Think of all the influx of new planes and selections. And Aces High will gain an even BIGGER lead over its competitors.
If you want effort on early war planes, it'll be done. If you want your favorite plane added ASAP, this will do just right.
After a modder finishes a plane or component of a plane, he could e-mail it to a special address with HTC. There, HTC would decide which planes to add so we don't end up with unused types.
Is this a rip-off? No; modders would be doing something modders like to do-and get even more in return.
And I'm already a modder for WW2 Fighters so I can start crankin' fast.
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Last I checked, you need a FM to match that model.
You can have all the models in the world, you still need a flight model for each. You need data to achieve that, and the means to get that data.
So, in the end, you end up with a bunch of user created models waiting for FMs.
Why even bother?
-SW
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Additionally, IIRC, HTC has already stated that they have no interest in this arrangement. This was asked about several times a ways back, and the word from HTC was "nope."
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Thats the point. Users create "skin/plane/model" and HiTech says "ok/try again" and make FM for that model. I'm sure they would want little help.
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In such a scenario, wouldn't it make more sense for HTC to simply do the FMs? After all they are being asked to verify all of the numbers in the FM. Seems to me that it wouldn't be any more work to simply do it themselves.
I prefer having one group do the models / FMs. It makes things perform an look consistant.
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Swulfe,why u gotto be such a negative bastard?
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Negative? I'm not. I'm merely pointing out the obvious.
Caligula, did you somehow lose your way. Could of sworn you were too busy blowing smoke up Oleg's and the Rat's tulips to visit us mere AH mortals.
-SW
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But Nate and Superfly cant do anything else..
Aces High is really a make work and pay for beer project for the art team.
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I got to go with Supa and Nate as top notch aircraft art makers. Although sometimes I think the models themselves are questionable I do think that it's better to let HTC manage and control and assemble so to speak the aircraft to be used in AH. It would just create a nightmare to manage all these plane influxes from several plane makers.
now aircraft skins on the other hand, are a good idea for that aircraft you are using not a default for all seen. This would not make the issue of pink skinned P51s a problem.
[ 10-01-2001: Message edited by: Glasses ]
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Id like to know the poly count that they are trying to stick to.
Id bet that with the aid of other artists, AH models could start looking better and better.
Not saying that anything is lacking, the models look pretty good for what polygon limit HTC "has"? established for planes.
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I would love user created skins. Maybe they can be reviewed like noseart is so you dont end up with then pink 51s.
I would love a FW190d-9 'Rot 3' JV44 Platzschutzstaffel skin. :)
I dont know if it should be any sort of priority. but wtf...........
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would be nice to have player-submitted skins & approved by HTC to choose from for every in-game plane.
No change in fm or anything, just the skin of it.
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As I recall, HTC is not doing the multi-skins thing because they are trying to support cards with lower amounts of texture memory.
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Warbirds 3 has this capability already.
It has been beaten to death here when WB3 was released. That's part of the reason for short-not-really-discussing-it answers.
The facts have been thrown out there. HTC has participated in the discussions. Nothing new is being said.
AKDejaVu
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As is, you can only see x number of different aircraft at any one time. After you reach that magic number, the aircraft appear as icons and dots.
I'm sure the same holds true for paint schemes. After x number of different paint schemes are shown, no more can be shown. So instead of being able to see, for example, 64 aircraft- you can now only see 32 because each of them have a different paint scheme.
It's a moot point anyway, we already know where HTC stands on this issue.
-SW
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That is an interesting speculation but not valid I think. If it were true that the number of paint schemes was limiting the number of AC we can see at one time then a wider variety of AC would reach that limit sooner. But that is not the case. It is set to 32.(I believe)That really rings of an arbitrairy limit decided on by HT as to how many AC he would send detailed close range position, vector and damage status for to each player. I dont think that more or more detailed models are useful. The vast majority of the time you cant see the detail of the enemy anyway.
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Perhaps the plane limit wouldn't kick in, but certainly some type of limit would have to be set.
If you've ever played an MMP game where 40+ players all had either their own paint scheme or a squad paint scheme, then you'd find out just how fast your system(any kind) will tank when a good variety of a/c and paint schemes are in view.
-SW
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No offence SW, but the worlds most popular flight simulator has proved that model does actually work.
Microsoft's Flight Simulator series with their public SDK and open plane design is the exact reason why that works in a product.
You get a lot of people making good products - the end result is software that never ages because there is always something good coming around the corner.
Personally, I would love if HTC opened that element up. Allow people to submit aircraft for evaluation. Heck, I wish they even allowed me to modify my own paint schemes just like the sounds.
V.
[ 10-02-2001: Message edited by: Vruth ]
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Vruth, what model? Yes, it does work for them. There is no need for MS to double check everything and make sure it's all fine and dandy.
The end user makes everything. In this case, end users only make the models. So what's so good about these models created by users if no one can fly them? Open up the FM to end users? No way in hell, that's suicide for HTC.
In the end there is no benefit other than to put a muzzle on those who keep screaming for the ability to make models.
-SW
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Wulf, shaaaaaaddddupp already dang. :rolleyes: your always Mr. negitivity
lol letting the USER contribute to an already good product can only make it better.
(infact HTC already does this right?.. I mean this message board of sorts, aids HTC in Ideas, and the direction of what their end users would like to go)
I can only speculate that HTC does all the flight modeling for the Aircraft within thier physics engine of sorts.
Letting someone make a flourecent green p51 would and should do nothing to the quaility of HTC's product (although it would seem pretty funny ;) to fight such an ugly 51 :D
Didnt HTC already say that they dont create the FM based on the physical shape of the Model? So, if a user created a pheasible model, HTC could then plug in all the data for the Characteristics of that model and wa-la.. a new user contributed plane?
Then again its HTCs baby, they will run it how they choose :p
just Some Thoughts
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Uhmmm,..not being negative, but there is more to a model than just the outside or the FM.
Cockpits? Cockpits are a lot of work. LOD models? How to get them designed and how many? All the associated textures? Textures are not just square bitmaps filled with something. The something in the bitmap may or may not have a specific shape to match a contour, or for texture wrapping.
A model can look great be be badly designed. (i.e. overlapping polys, normals not set right for interior polys, which can cause lighting problems, and the list goes on.)
Then these is the issue with vertices. Should they be shared or not? What about specular and alpha?
I am not saying players should not be allowed, I am just saying I do not think most people have much of an idea what goes into the designing of a 3D model.
On the surface, it sounds like it would be cool, but the reality is very different. To take a badly designed model and rework it can take as much time as designing one from scratch.
HTC has insight into exactly the way a model must be done to fit into the world. This is information they cannot give out, as it then opens the door for how they do what they do.
Even if you manage to get the model done correctly, they would have to do the research for the FM. This is a very time consuming process.
Okay, so they open the door and give out thier FM models, which would be business suicide,...who is going to verify the information the player supplies? Again, it does not save much, if any, time.
Anywho,,..just me two cents worth.
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Maybe because Mr Negativity happens to know more about what goes into a computer game than the guys screaming for modding capability.
I said everything Skuzzy said, aside from the detailed particulars on lighting and texturing a model, let alone the LOD models, and I get bushwhacked by the village idiot and one of Oleg's/The Rat's buttmunches.
Like I said, I'm not being negative, I *AM* pointing out the obvious though.
-SW
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While I agree HTC will never open up plane models (for many many reasons) I wonder if they might ever open up other areas to allow contributions.
Off the top of my head allowing users to contribute Ships, Carriers and buildings would allow users to do quite a bit of work for them.
Yes there are considerations in how well they are built. But HTC uses very specific software to build their 3D models- not just sitting down at 3dsMAX. If Nate and super released a design spec that submitted models have to meet I think you would be surprised how quickly people would jump to model the Japanese carrier fleet or a couple dozen new building types.
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Maybe because Mr Negativity happens to know more about what goes into a computer game than the guys screaming for modding capability.
I said everything Skuzzy said, aside from the detailed particulars on lighting and texturing a model, let alone the LOD models, and I get bushwhacked by the village idiot and one of Oleg's/The Rat's buttmunches.
Like I said, I'm not being negative, I *AM* pointing out the obvious though.
-SW
Heres a little wake up call for ya wulfy.
<--Been using Lightwave from Version 4 up to 6.5 for over 6 years.
<--Been Using Maya for 1 years time.
<--has modeled in Bryce
<--Has modeled in 3Dsmax 2.0 up to 3.0
<-- knows quite a bit about efficiency in polygonal modeling and b-spline modeling of complex mesh across differning platforms.
<-- knows quite abit about light setup from an artistic pov.
I think the only obvious thing that can be seen here is that HTC does not use programs like these to create thier models, but rather a game engine modeler of some sort.
And if they are happening to export from a higher end 3d/animation package they are not (from what aces high has shown) useing orgranic nurbs modeling, or anything that wold specifically require an extreme lod/polycount tradeoff.
Point: with much less, involved the creations could be made quite simple.
My question is.. Is there a specific poly count that HTC is going for.
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WTF are You talkin` about Swulfe?
I don`t play WWIIOL,and I beta test for IL2.
I may seem like a heretic to You,but I happen to be open for new things,unlike You who`s being negative about anything that`s different from the present state of AH.
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You are forever cheerleading in the O'Club about either Il-2 or used to be about WW2Ol.
I'm open to new things, but the obvious negative effects on opening up the game to end-users far outweighs it's miniscule benefits.
I'll say it again, I'm pointing out the obvious and not being negative. Unless of course you view everyone who says "Well it's simply not doable" as being negative- in which case you must be SOL when it comes to a lot of things.
Caligula: "I want a turbo charger on my Pinto"
Mechanic: "It's not doable"
Caligula: "Why are you such a negative bastard?"
-SW
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I have seen turbo pintos(not sure why you would want one, though....)
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The problem with You is: it never crosses your mind ,that You might be wrong every now and then.
IMO if people that have the skills and time to create 3D modells for AH,even if they sit unused waiting for a flightmodel ,would be good.And user created costum skins would be great too.It`d free up rescorces for HTC,and still let them have control over how the game is.
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I'm not wrong on this issue.
It frees up no resources at HTC either. Currently NateDog and Superfly ONLY make the models and skins. That's what they do. In effect, you take away their jobs by allowing users to create them. Then there's a list of other problems which Skuzzy pointed out.
-SW
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Skuzzy speaks wisdom. :)
It would probably take us just as long to sort through a player created model as it would for Nate or I to make it.
Plus, we'd have to spend hours upon hours of explaining and documenting polygon tagging, DOF's (Degrees of Freedom), BSP-ing, Poly counts, LOD's, sorting issues, etc., etc.
It is an extremely complicated process, and it changes constantly as we develop the game.
[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: SUPERFLY ]
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dang deez with all that go start your own game...........
you can mix x-plane with il2 and whatever else...........
I dont see where you got the time though....
Always whining about how good them other things are but you spend a good amount of time trolling this bbs..........
Anyway for all your "experience" read what skuzzy and superfly said in their posts. So you aint as smart as you would like us to believe.
Aint there a good 2v2 session going on over at il2?
or atleast get some x-planing and maybe give the rest of us a break.
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Anyway for all your "experience" read what skuzzy and superfly said in their posts. So you aint as smart as you would like us to believe.
Your funny woton :D
here I'll throw together a simple Aircraft and post it here on this bbs, and you then tell me lol the Experience or talent that I lack :D
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I think the only obvious thing that can be seen here is that HTC does not use programs like these to create thier models, but rather a game engine modeler of some sort.
I forgot to add that we use Multigen Creator to build the models.
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heya superfly :) I have not really heard too much on that product. Is it Polytransform or something simuliar?
Could you tell me the Website for the Tools/studio of Multi Gen is?
Thanks :)
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Multigen's Website (http://www.multigen.com/)
It is used quite a bit in the gaming world. I don't know what Polytransform is, but Multigen is a very powerful and diverse modelling program.
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Back to the subject of the title:
Not that I matter at all, but I am not looking forward to Il-2.
List of reasons:
I downloaded that rediculous 100 Meg demo. (is it me or is that HUGE?)
I tried like hell to fly the P39, but I guess I'm not dweeb enough, it flops around like a flounder on crack!
The 109 flys like an A6M2...I tried to force it to stall but couldn't.
The damn game is called Il-2 but the demo doesn't have an Il-2 that I can fly. (Statement goes to the illogical thought process of the designers :) )
The gunnery sucks. In My Idiot Oppinion.
Rain...I may be wrong, but I didn't think many successful missions were flown in the rain.
POV controls. I can't set my stick such that I can use all of the POVs. The inputs in the setup only allow you to push buttons and as such, my combination of 2 hats can't work. The result is that I can not move my head around the cockpit like I can in AH, AW, WB, Hell even FA was better.
30ish player limit. LOL, what fun is that?
There's more, but I don't think I need to continue.
Viper
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There, now you won't have to explain all that for another six months Superfly. :D
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1. Modders would be people who already know how to use 3D model editing software.
2. Documentation on how to do this is found on the internet-HTC wouldn't have to do this.
3. FM's would be done by HTC.
4. HTC would check the 3D models and skins contributed and give it a thumbs up or a thumbs down.
5. If thumbs down: model and/or skin (whichever is the rejected portion, if not both) would be sent back to the modder for reworking.
6. If thumbs up: model and skin would be given a FM by HTC and would then proceed to the testing stage.
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Documentation on how we make models, our standards, and techniques are not on the internet. Re-read what I said over and over again above until you get it.
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Ding_Hao: Just curious how many hours do you think it would take you to complete 1 fighter plane shape?
HiTech
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I am taking a shot in the dark here- but with experience I think a first one would be done in 80-100 hours after experience in Multigen is gained. Most enthusiasts would willingly spend triple that before even trying to submit one (discounting crap submitted by "just trying" crowd).
Fighters and planes aside- if SF and ND released a min-spec sheet for what they consider "acceptable to look at" you would definitly see some people try to model non-FM items like buildings objects and ships.
Sorrow
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After reading all of this i must admit im very dissapointed.
I have always wished that I would be able to fly all the models in different guises as in the P40 (when it arrives) in USAAF colours and its RAF colours.
Does this mean that the 109s we have will never be seen in desert camoflage? no 190s in eastern front winter camo????
Im sorry but i think thats the worst news ive heard.I thought it would at least be possible to create user made skins for the present models! all this FM talk would only apply if you are proposing they be allowed to make new aircrafts.Why not allow us to choose different camo schemes (historical) for our present plane set?
You seem to dismiss this request HTC as if we have no business asking but i have to tell you that when a game gives choices of skins, like il2 demo I very much enjoy changing them.
I didnt like the made up skins(non-historical) I admit but the fact that i could choose the scheme to match any of the JG squads was a big bonus.
Why not allow those who are good at skins, who will do it for nothing, save you time and only increase our choice, to make skins for the models we have now?
I assume the skin only has to look right to be approved.There is no way the skin could affect the FM is there? I mean you flew the me262 in MA an it had the p51 skin right?
Lets get those that want to make skins working on various schemes/camoflage types.Limit them to historicaly correct markings etc and it would only need a quick once over by your team to see if they are acceptable surely?
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My apologies-
I had no idea what Multigen was. Sorry people- that is a closed system. Even if SF and ND did release a sheet you could not make anything unless you worked for a company that utilized it.
It was a good hope though.
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That requires changing a lot Hazed. Probably takes a crap load of changes to all of the current models too.
I'm not positive, but the way the models are packaged it might be a all-in-one deal. As in, the skin is assigned a specific model. The model is assigned a specific skin. In order to change this it must be all unpackaged and re-assigned/re-organized to make room for various skins.
As in, all files- models, skins and all that stuff- is packaged into a single file. In order to gain access to this file to test the aircraft in game, the file needs to be decompressed and unpackaged.
In the end, it is a lot of work for something that could be only semi-beneficial.
For certain, it would reduce the output of the current modelers because they have to double check everything users create.
It's best to let them deal with stuff they already know about, hell why not put all this talent to good use?? Rather than building planes why don't some of you put this modelling skill to use and build some terrains?
-SW
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I checked out that Site Supa-Fly, looked into the product abit. The only thing I do not see is a Downloadable Demo. I See that they do have an option for their representitaves to come and DEMO it for me, but why! LOL.
I was hoping that there is a 30 day trial software Download of sorts, but cannot find anything of the sort :confused:
hmm.. As far as the program goes, it seems to have only a polygonal based modeling setup?
I saw the demo (avi) of the product, working basic primitives and using a sort of subdivision patch to entire parts for overall higher detail/poly count, but nothin on the use of B-splines, or free form Nurbs modeling.
It seems fairly user Friendly, albiet multiple menus and procedural functions to accomplish a common task, but all this is learned with experience like any other program.
Anyway... im thinking about doing a simple model in Lightwave of a Gloster Meteor for time being with same goal that mulitgen has focus for.
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:D
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Sorry for being harsh earlier about all this. Too much stress...
Anyway, Multigen works much like Alias, if you ever used it. They are pretty much set up the same. I'm not sure about nurbs. It could be a possible plug-in. It is pretty much a polygon based modelling system. I don't know why they don't have a demo, but maybe that's because the program costs over $12,000. :eek:
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CC that Super. I happen to Have Lightwave as Well as Alias FULL.
I have worked with a few from UPN 9 on Becomeing a modeler for Babylon 5 /Deep Space 9. I started doing 3D animation quite a while back, I actually went to College when I was 13 For Art. Ive been pretty much into Art My entire existance, Along the Way I have had a few good breaks/leads into the World of ART 3D/2d wise.
If you would like to see what Maya has to offer, you can easiler send out for a Free CD demo. It is a 30 day Demo that has pretty much all the Features of version 2.5/3.0 involving all features of the whole product but with the limitation of it lasting only 30 days, as well as an Inibility to save your projects.
www.aliaswavefront.com (http://www.aliaswavefront.com) for the demo.
With these programs I can create an entire optimized 3D model within a few hours. Roughly 3-10 hours worth of work.
Maya does have in itself an ability to export to game engines, but I have not any expierence with that portion.
Anyway <S> and stop stressing out :D
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Hitech: I have built entire planes for WWII Fighters. I know what it takes. Weeks. On complex planes, maybe even months. But multiply the number of modelers by say, (conservatively), 3, then it'll take roughly three times less time to make the models.
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Well at least you guys have a realistic idea on how long stuff takes.
Btw one of the biggest down sides to it, is that we are not a traditional game where players make models. What happens is there get to be a lot of people who make a outside, none animated model, post a screen shot with 20,000 polies, it looks realy cool, and we end up taking the heat for it not being int the game. As an example of this look at the terrain editor, can't think of how many single screen shots people whowed over, then later we were accused of ignoring all other peoples terrains. Funy thing is almost all of them were not completed nore usfull for us as main terrains. Then when we get into planes same type of thing will happen. Players will make there loved plane, it won't fit into the current plane set, and once again we will be asked, why are you not using all those player based planes we see screen shots off.
In the end it's not that im against player contributions, but there realy are lots of down sides, and lots more work for us. In the end I belive it would it end up slow down plane production not speeding it up.
As far as plane skins go there are things I have ideas on, but the ability to modify own your skins in the main arena will not happen do to fairness.
Other issues to deal with are controling down load sizes.
HiTech
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The fact that it has taken so long for iEN to approve their PDC (Player Development Committee) for WBIII ought to tell you its not as an easy process as it would seem. And its still not set up. SF points out the obvious problems.
Part of it is making sure you only have guys make models for planes you intend on using, meaning ones you have good usable data for. Blohm and Voss made a bunch of cool looking planes, but finding accurate complete flight performance data, might be a bit of a stretch. And from their WB days, I'm sure HTC and Pyro can tell you about the perils of fudging FM data :D
Lugnut
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Gentlemen,
In my opinion, adding 200 more planes and 150 more vehicles to the game will improve it by about 10%.
We can do pretty much everything with the current planeset (even though I personally like early-war planes).
HTC has to concentrate on gameplay like objectives, strategy, cooperation, etc.
With technology developing so fast huge number of rarely-used planes becomes a liability when the time comes to change them to the new technology.
miko
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Going to Create a simple mesh of meteor and Higher LOD one.
read post up. :)
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Ya know the Kraits Squadron,Fidd and the boys created an outstanding add on for Air Warrior.You could dl the planes solo or as sets and it only affected your view.Terrain files also were included.Anyone who ever used these Knows what Im talking about.Question is,with a combined effort wouldnt it be an idea to consider.Heres a group allready proven on the work.All ya got to do is show them the code :eek:
Just my miserable opinion. :p :p
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Multigen is pretty much designed to work with games (I believe it was originally designed for VR stuff) and is Irix only.
Maya, for all it's strengths, is not specificly designed for game-modelling (Although a seperate game-SDK package can be bought seperatly).
The problem is, as Superfly already pretty much said once, is that they'll have to spends a fair amount of time checking through the models, that the pivots are in the right place & orientation, naming conventions, surface discontinuity (Especially if it's coming from a different package, as a lot of exporters tends to facet the polys) and whatever texturing system they use. (I have no idea of how Multigen does that).
I know that I would much rather build a model myself than having to spend time checking/fixing other peoples models.
The best way to get around, is to have a group of trained players who have access to Multigen and the developing tools that HTC uses, who can then screen the models, but with the pricetag on Multigen, that also seems unlikely.
I do believe it's a clever of gettings things introduced, but it isnt quite as simple as just throwing a model together and watching it fly.
Daff