Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Sabre on November 08, 2002, 12:08:33 AM
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I got word from Kanttori that the Finland-Russia map will not be ready for this Friday. Therefore, I'm going to run Burma instead. Planeset will be as follows:
Allies:
P-40b, Hurri-I, Boston-III, SBD, C-47, M-8, M-3, M-16, and the LVT(4) to represent a light tank.
IJN:
A6M2, Ki-67, D3A Val, C-47, M-8, M-3, M-16, and the LVT(4) to represent a light tank.
Base capture will be enabled, and downtimes will be 15-min for hangers, 30 for AAA, and 2 hours for all other stuff. The shorter-than-MA rebuild time for AAA is meant to cut down on vulching for vulching's sake, while still providing a decent window for actual base capture attempts. The weak jabo capability of these a/c should keep milkrunning to an acceptable level.
Sabre
CT Staff
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How about a P-40E? It was in use in the CBI theater from May '42 onwards and is thus very much a proper choice for this setup. The P-40E has no performance advantage over the "B" above 15000 feet and is in fact only better while using WEP (5 minutes). The P-40B is not an effective fighter against the Ki-67 and is pretty badly outmatched versus the Zero too, and considering there were no Zeros in CBI in this timeframe (it is subbing for the inferior Nate and Oscar) I cannot see any reason to NOT include the P-40E. The P-40E/A6M2 stack up about the same as the P-40B/Ki-43-I do.
I would also suggest getting rid of the Boston in favor of the TBM, whether the Boston was there or not....they have a similar bombload with the TBM being more easily intercepted by the Zero (as an FYI the Boston can outrun and outclimb the P-40B at low levels and it is even a good margin faster than the P-40E on the deck). The TBM could serve as a generic early Allied bomber; its performance is not too dissimilar from that of the B-25C/D.
J_A_B
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If the P-40B cannot find a place in this setting, where can it?
Whose gonna fly the "B" when the "E" is sitting in the hangar next to it?
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Agree, untill they get a full plane set best to use the P-40B to keep it fair.
Also like the idea of useing the TBM instead of the Boston.
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you forgot the 109 :)
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woo hoo "zeke" time, the ki67 is way too much for this set up it can outrun both the hurricane and the p40b.
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b is fine. But that ki is gonna hurt!
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"Agree, untill they get a full plane set best to use the P-40B to keep it fair. "
So "fair" is giving the Japanese a fighter which is a LOT better than what they had in this time/place, then NOT giving the Allies the a fighter which they were actually using in this time/place in large quantities? The P-40E was the dominant American fighter once we started fighting in earnest (mid '42); the P-40B was on its way out even prior to Pearl Harbor (its obsolence was part of the reason the AVG got it).
You're right, the P-40B wouldn't see much use compared to the P-40E. And why would it? The P-40B has like a 2300 FPM climbrate, guns on par with the C.202, and has nasty handling characteristics to boot (it likes to get into flat spins). The Ki-67 can outrun the P-40B on the deck AND at high altitude...there is only a very small altitude range where the P-40B is actually faster. The A6M2 is so much better than the P-40B it's not funny.
The P-40B is routinely the least-used plane in AH because it is a worthless pile of junk. The P-40E isn't a whole lot better but it'd at least give the Allies something that could (barely) outrun the Ki-67, at least at low altitudes. Furthermore the P-40B wasn't the American's main fighter in the CBI theater anyway so restricting them to it is not historical.
If you're worried about "balance", then perk the P040E at a few points. That's what the perk system is there for! The Axis always seem to get the 262 in late-war setups--perked lowly--and it's a heck of a lot more unbalancing than the P-40 is! Honestly I see no reason to need to perk the P-40E, but even that would be better than not having it at all.
And I still like the idea of giving the Allied side TBM's instead of Bostons :)
J_A_B
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What fighter planes would be excellent for this setup that arent yet in the game?:
Brewster
Ki-43
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...
..
.
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Both the Ki.67 and Boston Mk III are way, way too fast for the fighters listed. Even if the A6M2 catches a Boston Mk II by some fluke. it probably won't have the firepower to shoot it down.
What we need for the early war setups are the B-25B and G4M2 Betty or a Ki.21-IIb.
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As someone who expects to be flying the A6M-2 because everyone else will be flying P-40s... I'd rather be outnumbered fighting against B's that E's. The A6m-2 is an areosol can just waiting to blow at the first good whack. P-40b sounds like a good advisary, espescially with only 120 effective rounds to take one down with. If the A6M-2 really does eat the p-40b up, then put in the E.
eskimo
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I am with ya on this one eskimo. I wanna give that b a try. Lets see what happens. The only real off bit is the diving problem. Oscars (what was in burma) could not dive nearly as well as the zeke. Sure they were slower than the zeke as well, but they really died on the dive, and that was the maneuver that kept the avg alive.
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Early Burma had Nates and Claudes fighting the Tigers, then the Oscar later on, since our plane set is prety far off from that on both sides of the fince, this is the "best we can do now type of thig", After flting both side tonight I found that the best bet Air to air for me was the Huricane, I took 25% fuel good for the short range fights I was in and used flaps in combat with the Zero, I easly turned with them and got a few kills, if you are allied and just cant handel not being faster, try the Boston A got a few kills in it Zooming and Booming, all in all great fun tonight TY sabre.
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zeke's are basically eating up the hurris and and p40b silly enuff to get slow... if p40b flies like a "pony" it's fairly untouchable, but the guns aren't made for quick deaths, and a zeke can easily avoid a p40b if not in a furball.
i'd really suggest adding the p40e... the guns would help some - zeke's aren't that paperish. p40b seems to have a pretty weak tail, too.
i'd also suggest increasing radar range, nothing can kill interest faster for "visitors" than a dot-chasing setup.
why is SBD there? a20's there, too... are sbd's an oversight... n/m i see they're listed... but what's the rationale?
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Perhaps the SD is representing the A-24, which was the Army version of the SBD.
And of course I think the P-40E is more proper (being the one who first brought it up), but too late now I suppose.
I however will bring this up next time the Axis get some "too good" fighter anyway, even as a perk (like the 262) :) I have no preference between Axis or Allied in the CT but I DO care when one side is clearly being jilted for absolutely no good reason (P-40E too good? make it cost a couple perkies like the jet always does).
J_A_B
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So we have an Alied plane the P40b which has no sutible Axis plane that it can outpreform to set aganst it...:), Curently the A6M2 is the earlest Axis plane modeled In AH, I do beleave it is in fact Earler the the 109E, the P40 E's real apponent would of been the A6M3 or later Which we do not have, the E is still a pig by comparison and the only big advantage it has over the Zero is to increase the firepower advantage the b already has. The Hurican is the best foil for the Zero in this set up, we can not recreat the easy victories the Flying Tigers had in the CBI untill we get the pos planes they faught aganst the Claud's and the Nates. What we have is a set up designed to creat the feal of the theater, in a time frame that Japanese kicked but in, but each side has strengths and weakness, the Japanes planes are very frail and lightly armed, the Allied planes ave tremendious fire power advantages in hitting power, and range, and ammo load, they are tough planes, and while the P40b neads to be used carefull, DONT TURN IT , the Huricane with 50% or less fuel and flaps can easly turn with the Zero, and waste it with 303's, I shreaded 4 no problem today. I truley wish we had a better plane set with more thought given to balenced match up's, but every update brings us closer and one day we may indead have some dog's the P40b can outpreform:)
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Ki 27 (Nate):Used extensively in the First year of the war in all theaters by the Japanese Army, and throught the war in a diminishing capacty as the years went on.
spead:aprox. 292 mph
Aramement: Two 7.7mm MG's, and light bombs four 55 pound bombs.
Aprox. 3,399 Ki 27's were built.
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Right now the A6M-2 is 54/41 (K/D = 1.32) over the P-40B.
The A6M-2 is 43/34 (K/D = 1.26) over the Hurri-1.
I havn't had a chance to fly this set-up yet, so I havn't seen first hand how things are going.
Very often, the CT guys with experience fly axis to ballance things out, and the Newbies fly Allied because they can't contemplate working for anyone other than the good guys. If this was the case last night, I'd say the stats indicate a fair plane ballance (ya gotta expect the experienced guys to do better if things are a fair match).
If, however, both sides had plenty of experienced players, and the Allies had a numerical advantage, and still took a beating, then perhaps the Zeke outclasses the P-40B by too much. Just supposing here, I wasn't there.
See you guys tonight.
eskimo
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Originally posted by brady
Ki 27 (Nate):Used extensively in the First year of the war in all theaters by the Japanese Army, and throught the war in a diminishing capacty as the years went on.
spead:aprox. 292 mph
Aramement: Two 7.7mm MG's, and light bombs four 55 pound bombs.
Aprox. 3,399 Ki 27's were built.
If we ever get this bird, it'll be a shoe in for the Battle of the Turds!
eskimo
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A5M, Claud:
Produced untill 1940, and still equiping 3 fleat caries at the time of the attack on Pear Harbor, the type was used in china before the war, howeaver, It quickly faded from front line use as soon as WW2 started for Japan in 41, only being used in limited numbers during the first part of the pacific conflect in the front lines.
Speed:280-295mph depending on model.
Arament: Two 7.7mm and two 20mm MGFF.
Aprox. 1094 were produced.
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The Ki-43-I, entered production in APR.41(this was the first service production aircraft model of this type), aprox 716 were produced untill, replaced on the production linnes by the Ki 43-II in November 42, all that time between Feb and november produced 5 prototypes and 3 trials aircraft! Then 2,492 Ki-43-II's were produced from Nov 42 to Oct.44 for a total of aprox.3,239.
Ki-43-I/II
Speed:308/329
Aramement: Early two 7.7mm MG's(ki-43-Ia), Then one 7.7mm and one 12.7mm Ho-103(Ki-43-Ib),Finaly Two 12.7mm Ho-103.
The Ki-43-I could cary Two 33 pound bombs the "II" two 550 pound bombs.
The Oscar, is to say the least Lightly armed, yet was one of the primary FTr types in the CBI and the PAC for the Japanese Army, in the early to mid war perioud, during the first year of the war it shared the skys in increasing numbers with the Nate untill it replaced it in most theaters as a front line ftr.
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Oscar:
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From December 1941 to July of 1942 the AVG flew P-40Bs, most of the IJAAF fighter opposition was Ki-27 Nates. After the USAAF took over with P-40Es (and P-40Bs early mixed) the IJAAF had mainly Ki-43s. As a stand in the A6M2 is fine, but its more fighter than the Ki-43-1 ever was, and a hell of a lot more than a Ki-27, so if your wondering why the P-40B doesnt do all that well, thats the reason.
I would like to see the perk point system used sometimes in CT setups, you could have P-40Bs and P-40Es perked as one way of including both types.
I also agree on the Ki-67, its untouchable unless you dive on it with 6 x 50s.
The P-40s in the CBI gave as good as they got in air to air combat, the P-40 model had its best k/d ratio of any WW2 theater in Burma, better than the Med, better than the SW Pacific, better than the Lend Lease P-40s that flew for the Soviets. If it ever shone in WW2, Burma was the place it did. Just for info, has nothing to do with the CT setup.
Later.
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if you are allied and just cant handle not being faster..
Amen, brady, amen.
Remember what happened in Lybia folks? Shane's consistent :D whining was making people tiresome, but yes, to say the truth, Shane did have a point. As did Wotan.
So what we generally agree on CT is "doing the best we can", basically siding with the initial choices the staff had set, and changing things only when it was undeniably catastrophic to balance. The reasoning we gave out to Shane was, advantages and disadvantages are part of the CT, and balance goes only so far. Part of the fun in CT is trying to overcome problems in disadvantaged situations.
Every Axis enthusiast complained about the PAC setups, but remeber those setups were still carried out, because we were limited and had no other choice. People were stuck with Ki-61s and Zeros against Corsairs and Hellcats - were it in the MA nobody in there sane mind would try to fight in disadvantaged planes.
So I suggest try thinking it as "taking turns". As brady says, where's the fun if you Allied guys want to be in faster planes all the time? Besides, trust me, fighting series 2 Zeros(aka. the "Matchbox" :D ) in P-40Bs can't be as bad as trying to fight F4U-1s in A6M-5bs. Hey, there were c.202s and the slug Bf109E-4 fighting against 6 x .50 armed, "dive like crazy" P-40Es.
So try and swallow this one graciously as well. This time the Axis gets a better fighter, which is inevitably because this is "the best we can do".
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"People were stuck with Ki-61s and Zeros against Corsairs and Hellcats "
And that is every bit as silly. The Ki-61 can sort of handle the Hellcat (at least it can compete), but I wish HTC never added the F4U-1, at least not without also adding decent 1943 Japanese fighters. 1943 PTO just wasn't a great time for balance.
BTW Brady, I wouldn't say the P-40B has a firepower advantage over the Zero. Quite the opposite. Both planes have crap for firepower but at least the Zeke gets cannons (if you can hit with them). The P-40B's firepower is only slightly better than that of the MC 202, and the 4 .30's lack the nice ballistics most American fliers are used to.
So look at this setup...instead of Ki-27's and Ki-43-I's (both useless junk), the Japanese side has A6M2's, a vastly superior fighter both in firepower and performance. The Allies are stuck with the P-40B, which is worse than the plane they actually had both in firepower and performance. There is no balance reason to do this as neither P-40 is better than the Zero in typical CT consitions.
Squire--even the AVG used the P-40E for ther last couple months before they were absorbed into the USAAF.
Oh and BTW, the A6M2 is faster than either model of P-40 if you just get some altitude under ya. S I'd hardly call it an "allied speed complaint", especially since I fly axis in the CT more than I fly allied, when I fly there at all.
J_A_B
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S!
Ki61 and Hellcat are a great matchup.
Turn goes very slightly to the Ki61, climb very slightly to the Hellcat. Speed slightly to the Hellcat, firepower is close, the Hellcat better at long range, but the Ki61 devastating at short range. (one good burst from those close grouped 20mm's in the nose and kaboom!) Both handle very well at high speeds.
I am thinking of creating a setup which is based on a mid '44 strike on the Phillipines by a US based Carrier Force. (one of the softening up raids prior to the Invasion of Leyte) It would use one of the Phillipines maps, perhaps Mindanao.
Aircraft would be:
USN
Hellcat
FM-2
SBD
TBM
IJA and IJN
Ki61
A6m5
Val
Kate
Ki67
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JAB, yes, you are right on that. P-40E was used for a few months by the AVG. May 42 to July 42 I think. I dont have the exact dates.
Later
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What the hell was wrong with libya? 202 and 109e vs p40es? What were the final scores on that one?
ahhemm... musta been the lw pilots...
I just dont want to hear any whining when the vf launches on tuesday with 10 p40bs flying in formation.
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so what's next weeks setup? done with this one ...