Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: DoctorYO on November 08, 2002, 10:40:40 AM
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There has been some debate over numbers in the Main arena about how rooks are severely outnumbered.
This is very true but note the following stats....
as of 11:11 EST +/- 1% due to constant killing in main.
Rooks Kills: 32765 vs all 28776 1.14 KD
Rooks Kills: 15345 vs Knits 13062 1.17 KD
Rooks Kills: 17430 vs Bish 15720 1.10 KD
As you can see if attrition was factored Rooks are kicking all others tails.
Note the other slob countries:
Bish kills: 44441 vs all 47652 .93 :p
Bish kills: 28703 vs Knits 30207 .95
Bish kills: 15720 vs Rooks 17430 .90
Knit kills: 43289 vs all 44077 .98
Knit kills: 30207 vs Bish 28703 1.05
Knit Kills: 13062 vs Rook 15345 .85
As you can see clearly Bish are by far the worst proforming bunch in the game. Even with their Hordes they can't even crank a positive KD ratio.
Note to HTC you have the data as shown here to create simple attrition model.
Perked plains should be cheaper in the country that is most efficient; likewise they should be more expensive in those countries who expend the most resources. Perk planes should count as 1.5 factor of the attrition model. hence for 2 perk planes down would be the same a 3 normal planes.
This model kills two birds with one stone. first off.. the perk planes will balance the numbers issue with superior planes going to the efficient side... Second the arena will most likely balance as a result of those who want to fly perk planes cheap and will shift countries. Then when one country gets to powerful the attrition model will balance it self do to dweeb factor loosing the perk planes at a rate of 1.5 to 1.... it will also have the hidden bonus of thwarting suicide attacks, hence increase acm and people actually have incentive to land their kills...
MA arena is saved.
just a suggestion.. And a razing to slob Bish and Knit who cant even break 1:1 but then claim how uber they are... more like suxor....
my 2 cents...
DoctorYO
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The rooks apparent "skill", and the bishops lackthereof is exactly why things are the way they are.
The rooks are more concerned with air-to-air fighting, stats, furballing, etc. They're less inclined to do more dangerous jabo runs, and base attacks.
Bishops(And knights) are the other way around. They care less about air combat, and more about winning the war. More bishops fly as jabos into dangerous(or sucidal) situations.
When it comes to winning the war, I'd rather have a newbie who doesn't mind dying on my side, than a fighter pilot who is going to hang out at 20k picking off stray enemy fighters. Sometimes skill can be a liability.
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It would be interesting to see how many assists the average Bish gets during a tour. :)
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Inn, point taken but notice this example:
You say youd rather have suicide tactics to win than have a more true to life system of attrition.... Ive flown on all three sides and i notice no more jabo or less jabo per sortie on any side. More suicide yes... (bish); more alt monkey (knit luftwabbles), and more quality pilots all around (Rooks)
so what your saying youd rather game the game to win at all costs. With no penalty for your actions.
I rest my case......
:rolleyes:
DoctorYo
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No, no, you're putting words into my mouth.
I'm not saying I want the game to be that way.
I'm saying the game IS that way.
In AH there is NO attrition. Trying to fight the war using attrition is not only completly worthless, but also retarded. Taking bases is about getting ordnance onto the target. Trying to play the game (AH -IS- a game) like you want it to be played, rather than how it is played, is always going to result in losing. The rooks play the game the way they want to(Air combat, furballing, etc) and because of they they lose.
(There is a difference though, between suicide jabo, and a mission which is suicide. Suicide jabo is when someone makes no attempt to pull out of a dive, and plows into the target with thier bombs, as opposed to someone who tries to pork a fields fuel in the middle of a couple dozen enemies)
Still though, you're misinterpreting what I said. The rooks don't launch jabos nearly as much, bombs weigh you down, and make you an easy target. Flying a jabo will always result in a lower k/d than leaving the bombs behind, wether or not you suicide. Without ordnance, taking fields is rather difficult. Jabos are far more important the furballers for winning the war. Flying a jabo is guarenteed to lower your k/d ratio. The rooks don't fly as many jabo sorties as either the knights or bishops.
Anyways, what it comes down to in the end is, rooks don't want to win, they just don't like losing, because it spoils the furballs.
(Also note that all usage of a team is generalizing, You may feel differently, but the generalization still applies)
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Which is it? Swarmer's denial.
ra
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Originally posted by ra
Which is it? Swarmer's denial.
It's exaggeration to make a point. The rooks focus more on air-to-air and less on land grabbing than the other teams.
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Very true, but it also very difficult to mount offensives when it's 140 v 100. Not impossible, but difficult. Being outnumbered is tolerable for a while, but when it's every day for months, it affects the way people fly. Everyone who flies in AH has been outnumbered from time to time, but Rooks have been overwhelmingly outnumbered for most of the last 8 months or so. That is a new phenomenon in AH. The only solution is for people to voluntarily switch countries when they see chronic side imbalances.
ra
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Attrition may seem like a good idea, but it could lead to several things that many people here either squeak about or would not put up with.
Ok, lets use me as an example. I fly the F6F almost exclusively. I usually only fly a few hours at night, pacific coast time. My squad is Bish. I can't be online during the day because I actually work. Now, lets say that attrition is implemented. If the people that are on during the day fly like crap or decide to suicide or whatever, and they expend the resources that the bish have been allotted.
Now, depending on how attrition would be implemented, one of two things happen. First, the ability to fly fighters or the plane of my choice is taken away from me through no fault of my own. Second, my team (the Bish) will be unable to fight effectively during this period through no fault of their own because they don't have any weapons/planes/vehicles/etc to use in order to fight. The key point being that it is NO FAULT OF OURS. We didn't decide to furball. We didn't decide to suicide. We didn't decide to do whatever it would be that would kill our supplies because we weren't around to make that choice.
Well, these lead to a few things that would cause people to come here and squeak about this:
1) unfair to the people who play at different times (i.e. US vs Euros do to time difference)
2) the dreaded sideswitching that people love to squeak about. Why stay with a country in which I can't fly the F6F?
3) people canceling their accounts. Why should I pay to play a game that other customers decide for me the planes that I can and can't fly through their own decisions?
That is why attrition won't work and is a bad idea. If you don't understand that, oh well.
Now, if all you were doing was coming here to say how great the rooks are and how bad the other countries in the game are, well good for you. You have discovered just how important your "AH Nationality" truly is. You know, my last girlfriend left me because her brother was a Knit and I was a Bish. Her father told her that there is no way that she could go out with someone who is from the wrong country in AH. Also, my co-workers have treated me like trash ever since us Bish were reset, and my landlord increased my rent by 25% for the ver same reason. I guess what chess piece country I fight for in a game truly is important and determines how much of a man I truly am.
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Originally posted by ra
Very true, but it also very difficult to mount offensives when it's 140 v 100. Not impossible, but difficult. ... The only solution is for people to voluntarily switch countries when they see chronic side imbalances.
It's always difficult to overcome the inertia of a bigger team, but all it takes is a good solid attempt at it. (Which is impossible unless the team wants to) Once a teams attack has been stopped, reversing it is fairly easy, even against superior numbers. Once the intertia is on your side, the numbers will tend to go the other way.
Nobody wants to switch to a team that doesn't want to win. When you only want to avoid losing, you're commiting yourself to that fate.
The only real solution is for the rooks to start trying to win, and stop worrying so much about stats. Or maybe shuffle around those who don't care, and import some who do from the knights/bishops.
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Once a teams attack has been stopped, reversing it is fairly easy, even against superior numbers.
That has not been the Rook experience at all. We often stop attacks, but counter attacks against overwhelming numbers are very difficult.
Nobody wants to switch to a team that doesn't want to win.
If players who 'want to win' switch to a chronically outnumbered side (where players don't want to win), they will presumably bring their desire to win with them. It's the numbers, not the attitude.
ra
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Note I say perk planes would be affected by the attrition model not normal latewar planes.
Hence your F6 would not be wasted on some dweebery by your countrymates.
Only the cost of perk planes...
whats this would mean is simple if your country suicide jabo attacks may indeed take the base but at a cost to resources to your country; which would be implemented via a percentage of the normal perkplane cost either up or down...
exp: if say team A is at a 1.10 etc.. then his perk cost for say 10%-50% (would need some thought and playtesting) less for perked planes. hence a spitXIV would only cost at 30% modifier at 42perks instead of 60.
on the other side of the coin the team with .90 KD would pay %30 more at 78 perks for the same aircraft.
This in turn would create some people saying why fly this country if they do this bull every camp and rotate to another country.
Those who suck it up in their country even despite the dweebery might be more inclined to indentify those who are a waste of your country's war resources and do some self policing.
Again I say no penalties to common used aircraft. Just to perked plane cost.
Granted there would be exploiters just like those take carriers and send them into the blue yonder but they would be very easy to identify using the current score stats we already have implemented.
DoctorYO
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Changing perk prices really is a pointless idea.
Those who fly them often enough to be any good in them have enough perks that cost is pretty irrelavant. Those who don't couldn't afford to anyways. Plus the perk planes, besides the 262 don't really offer anything not available in the free planes.
The big thing that stops people from flying perk planes isn't the cost, but the tags, changing the cost won't change that.
Plus all of the perk planes, excepting the 262 have a free "cousin" with similar(slightly below, but only sligtly) performance.
Tempest: La7
F4U-4: P-51D
Spit14: 109G-10
152: 190-D9
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Do the rooks really need a side balancing technique?
I mean, you rooks are always telling us how much better you are than the rest of us dweebs.
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I see some pretty flimsy logic being thrown around in this thread.
Rooks are more concerned with furballing and stats? I see no proof of that from any of the statistics provided. Think about it... if you're outnumbered 2 to 1 or more, you're going to be spending all of your time defending bases from attack rather than going on the offensive. And even if you do manage to get every Rook to attack the same enemy base, the enemy may nonetheless put up half of its own players to resist while sending the other half to take otherwise undefended bases.
In addition, the higher K/D ratio doesn't necessarily indicate an excessive willingness to furball. Maybe it indicates that most Rook battles take place over or near areas that afford them some ack protection. Base attack and suicide jabos would drop the K/D of opponents and correspondingly up the K/D for Rooks in a purely defensive situation like this. If Rooks are rarely capable of mounting a successful offensive push given their numbers, then their own levels of base attack and suicide jabo deaths would be substantially lower. Is it any surprise that Rooks have the highest K/D against Knights and Knights have the lowest K/D against Rooks given this explanation? With vastly superior odds, Knights will almost always be on the offensive, performing dangerous base attack rather than defending against Rooks.
And spare me the anecdotal "That's not the way it is when I'm flying" stuff.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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INN,
I dont want to insult you but yes perk planes are that good....
example: big debate going on in the aircraft forum about the f4u4 "why is it perked"
in that whole discussion noone once mentioned highspeed climb. the silly climbrates at like 275ias-300ias at 3k or more, thats why the f4u4 is perked and that alone....
yes the mustang and the g10 can do it to some degree but do they have the roll, the flaps, the dployable gear brakes, the outstanding over the nose view, carrierbased, fuel (la7 endurance is question) this list goes on and on.
perk planes usually have all attributes where as the g10 la7 mustang etc are very strong in some areas weak in others.
Just becuase your blind to these attibutes doesn't mean everyone else is.
your claim of perks doesn't matter tell that to the Tempest hordes who rain on some bases parade and live to tell about it.
Perk planes alone can affect the outcome of a battle but unlikely that of the war.....
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Furious
Do we need no.... Would we enjoy the game more and be more fair all countries yes.
We need to ask our selves which is more important gaming the game like INN (even though he denied this, RA kindly points out his denial)
or more but limited realism (note i say limited. ) and as INN pointed out far from unbalancing..... He notes the Tags, Ah yes the tags again i dont want to insult you but tags can be a good thing kind of like a gambit in chess or opening with something less used like staunton C4.... If you want ill do a post on tags and how they could be used to your advantage, but thats is another story.
Danish Gambit........ --------> your move
DoctorYO
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Originally posted by Innominate
When it comes to winning the war, I'd rather have a newbie who doesn't mind dying on my side, than a fighter pilot who is going to hang out at 20k picking off stray enemy fighters. Sometimes skill can be a liability.
that's not "skill" that's pure lame chickenchitness.
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You make it sound like the perk planes are 262's.
They have advantages, which are more than negated by thier tags. There is nothing wrong with the perk planes themselves, or thier cost. (Though cost is pretty irrelavent, they could be half or double thier cost, and thier effectivness and usage wouldn't change.
Perk planes have virtually no effect on the game. What little effect they do have is almost entirely attributable to the 262.
Personally I think that the perk planes should be treated as rewards, not punishments.
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And DoctorYo, you are the perfect example of what I refer to.
You fly a n1k2 in the fighter role most of the time, and you do well in it. You also have flown a couple of attack missions, and have done well there. But the vast majority was in a n1k2, which is a bad jabo platform at best.
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The rooks biggest problem is attitude, fixing that would solve the numbers problems.
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Originally posted by Innominate
Plus all of the perk planes, excepting the 262 have a free "cousin" with similar(slightly below, but only sligtly) performance.
Tempest: La7
F4U-4: P-51D
Spit14: 109G-10
152: 190-D9
Model K D Kill% Death% K/DRatio
Tempest 514 108 0.42 0.09 4.72
La-7 7542 6499 6.18 5.33 1.16
F4U-4 112 73 0.09 0.06 1.51
P-51D 9583 9343 7.86 7.66 1.03
SpitXIV 143 99 0.12 0.08 1.43
109G-10 3503 2729 2.87 2.24 1.28
Ta 152H 405 132 0.33 0.11 3.05
190D-9 3699 2448 3.03 2.01 1.51
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Originally posted by Innominate
The rooks biggest problem is attitude, fixing that would solve the numbers problems.
Again, the statistics do not necessarily support this supposition. I could just as reasonably argue that it is because of the numbers that Rooks are forced to fly in a defensive, air-to-air manner all of the time.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Innominate
You make it sound like the perk planes are 262's.
They have advantages, which are more than negated by thier tags.
The Tempest has 36 kills and has been killed 9 times against the La-7.
The P-51D has 8 kills and has been killed 13 times against the F4U-4.
The Spitfire Mk XIV has 4 kills and has been killed 4 times against the Bf 109G-10.
The Ta 152H has 13 kills and has been killed 3 times against the Fw 190D-9.
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Turbot, comparing perked and non-perked planes k/d ratios is meaningless. If you unperked the perk planes, thier k/d would be just as bad. If you perked the 109g10, la7, dora, or p51d, thier k/d ratios would go through the roof. Not because of thier ability, but because the way people fly them would change.
Flying conservativly, and shutting out the pilots who have no intention of landing will cause ANY plane's k/d ratio to go way up.
DoctorYo, The f4u4 doesnt climb anywhere near 3000fpm in a 275-300mph IAS climb. It gets about 2250 on WEP. (Under 10k)
And lev, you may be right.
Do people avoid switching to rooks, because rooks are outnumbered, or because the rooks aren't any fun to fly with?
Then again, nobody is ever forced to fly in a defensive manner, in fact, doing so almost guarentees a loss. Defending in AH is really delaying. If you aren't attacking, you're not going to get anywhere.
Then again, Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
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Originally posted by Innominate
And lev, you may be right.
Do people avoid switching to rooks, because rooks are outnumbered, or because the rooks aren't any fun to fly with?
Then again, nobody is ever forced to fly in a defensive manner, in fact, doing so almost guarentees a loss. Defending in AH is really delaying. If you aren't attacking, you're not going to get anywhere.
The problem is that it's almost impossible to successfully "win" in AH while suffering from a massive (i.e. 2 to 1 or greater) numbers disadvantage for reasons I mentioned earlier. You can send your entire country to attack an enemy base while the enemy sends half of his to defend it and the other half to take the rest of your undefended bases.
Result: You still lose. And who wants to be on a losing team anyway?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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A coordinated attack on a field, to take out it's hangars in one blow can win even against far superior numbers. Once an offensive is going, defenders tend to move elsewhere. The more momentum you can get going, the more numbers will start to swing in your favor, the easier the base captures get.
I won't argue that the rooks aren't consistantly badly outnumbered, they are. I won't argue that HTC shouldn't try and do something to help the problem, they should. But the rooks need to help themselves also, instead of whining and waiting for HTC to do something, or for people to switch out of pity.
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Originally posted by Innominate
A coordinated attack on a field, to take out it's hangars in one blow can win even against far superior numbers.
While in the meantime, three more fields fall as the coordinated base attackers no longer serve as base defenders.
Practically a zero-sum game for the outnumbered side.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I was waiting till you would engage in score whoring... ah yes score...
Note to all :
My dammage to death vs ground targets:
21249.90145 (122) dammage to death
14166.60097 (139) dammage per sortie
Note your score....
16056.9922 (206) dammage per death
6513.68551 (476) dammage per sortie
Im i missing something Ive flown 2 mission in Shiden in attack role, 1 death (congrats NB) and one landed.. that 4 250kgs on target...
1 mission Zero white 2 50kg bombs
3 missions zero green 1 250kg and 2 50kg's
now what are babbling about....
Maybe I like flying the shiden, Go do a stats check all the way back to beta...
:p
Since they nutered the shiden its no longer a superplane; and hence I need some practice in it. I prefer any latewar american iron over it. And i prefer any 109 over any american bird. But wait im trying to pad my stats....
actually im just flying japanese this tour... your pathetic jab at plane type is riposted...
Why if my plane is so bad at jabo have higher dammage ratio than your p38.....
Shiden is not best at jabo but very capable. 500kg of bombs is no slouch.
Combined with 4 HO99's your talking some powerhouse jabo.. But then again reason is useless to the stuborn.
hell I like the zero's 250kg and 50kg wingbombs. Very effective indeed.
I think you see the world as a glass of water half empty.
You need to open your eyes....
Have a Nice day INN... Pleasure rattling ya.
DoctorYo
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Anyway back to the original topic.
The defender should always have the higher Kill vs. Death. (I gather it is accepted that Rooks have been mostly in defensive roll?) It is undeniably easier to kill bomb laden aircraft, and the attackers are far from home and hence less likely to rtb - that is if the attcking plane doesn't just suicide in right off giving the defender a proximity kill . Plus the defenders are fighting in their own AAA.
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Answering the first post, bishorcs are people unavble to do anything without the support of the horde, knights are just the same.
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Not that I really care about attrition but, would it work if it was based per player?
per day quota (based on plane value)
1 262
1 Spit XIV
1 F4U-4
2 P51
2 109G10
2 La7
3 P47's
3 La5's
3 Spit V
You still have your choice of aircraft, but it is limited.
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Hiya Dr. Yo :)
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Originally posted by DoctorYO
I was waiting till you would engage in score whoring... ah yes score...
Again you're missing the point.
The point is, that you're a competent pilot able to to jabo without trouble. But you do it only rarely.
When statwhoring, damage per death, and damage per sortie matter. In the war, total damage is all that matters.
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Originally posted by DoctorYO
Inn, point taken but notice this example:
You say youd rather have suicide tactics to win than have a more true to life system of attrition.... Ive flown on all three sides and i notice no more jabo or less jabo per sortie on any side. More suicide yes... (bish); more alt monkey (knit luftwabbles), and more quality pilots all around (Rooks)
so what your saying youd rather game the game to win at all costs. With no penalty for your actions.
I rest my case......
:rolleyes:
DoctorYo
Suppose the numbers look like this: Knights 180, Bishop 140, Rooks 80. What do you think the knights and bishop will be doing? Most of the time, about 90 knights will be fighting 40 rooks and 70 bishops will be fighting the other 40 rooks.
There won't be a lot of field capture (by the rooks) going on.
When you see an attack coming, what do you (as a defender) do? Well, you position your airplane so you can attack as they arrive. That's the best possible scenario as a defender: Your enemy is intent on destroying a ground object - you're intent on shooting his butt, :)
Takes a pretty bad dog not to find a bone or two in that situation. And, that's exactly the situation the rooks have found themselves in for as long as I can remember (except for brief periods of number dominance.)
curly
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Originally posted by Mathman
I guess what chess piece country I fight for in a game truly is important and determines how much of a man I truly am.
Mathman, I hear your sarcasm and enjoy it, but...How come you only fly Bish then? If its really so unimportant in the scheme of things...
Are you saying your not only sarcastic, but a hypocritical sarcast?
:p
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One moment in time,Sat at 8:35 EST
Folks on line
Bishops137, Knights 146, Rooks 99
Bishops 36%,Knights 38%,Rooks 26%
Bases owned
Bishops 25, Knights 29, Rooks 21
Bishops 35%,Knights 39%,Rooks 26%
I doubt if I ever see numbers this close again.
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Originally posted by Krusher
Not that I really care about attrition but, would it work if it was based per player?
per day quota (based on plane value)
1 262
1 Spit XIV
1 F4U-4
2 P51
2 109G10
2 La7
3 P47's
3 La5's
3 Spit V
You still have your choice of aircraft, but it is limited.
Wouldn't work for a couple reasons. First, I pay my 15 bucks to fly whatever the hell I want. As many times as I want. If I want to try to up a Heavy C-Hog off a CV, I'll probably die 3 or 4 times before I manage to get it off the deck.
Second, it would make people fly like godawful rutabagas. Yea, more than they do already. People already do nothing but Bore n Zoom 90% of the time, you make it so they only get to fly their runstang or la7 twice a day they'll do it nothing but 100% of the time. It is already bad enough if you want to fly something other than a N1K, Spit, or one of the runners, that'd just make it worse.
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Originally posted by Lizard3
Mathman, I hear your sarcasm and enjoy it, but...How come you only fly Bish then? If its really so unimportant in the scheme of things...
Are you saying your not only sarcastic, but a hypocritical sarcast?
:p
Damn Liztard, you figured me out. I am the biggest hypocrit. I always rant on how good the bish are and the other countries suck.
Then again, maybe I fly bish because that is where my squad is.
And btw hick, pumpkin is a noun.
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Doctoryo is just a nik dweeb.
what about skill??
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Originally posted by Krusher
Not that I really care about attrition but, would it work if it was based per player?
You still have your choice of aircraft, but it is limited.
LOL!
Now THAT would be fun. 150 bish get to fly 150 x plane quota, knits get 130 x plane quota and rooks get 70 x plane quota.
Even with the rook K/D of 1.14 mentioned in the first post that wouldn't leave any chance to rooks.
What could work is a per country quota, that would give each country an equal number of planes (e.g. 1 plane every 20 seconds, or 1 plane every 2 minutes from each airfield; plane/time weighted by total players online). You would either have to wait for your ride a few minutes, or change to a country with lower numbers.
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Here is one thing to consider about the Rook high K:D ratio. Since they are defending most of the time, that would account for the furballing aspect. The other point is, all of us at one time or another has defended a base tooth and toenail with a bunch of guys we don't know that well, but when the action gets think the defenders tend to communicate much better than the attackers. I fly for the Knights, and most of what I see are people in the ground attack role, and a few scattered bombers, but we never communicate as well on the range radio as we do when we are defending. I would assume that the Rooks are the same way. Just a thought I could be way off base.
Conn
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I don't think a good defence close to a field (not forward CAP) requires much communication, except maybe calling out where enemies are coming from etc.
And of course "Stupid fighters, two on the one low con is enough, rest of you climb, damnit! Climb!! Before more of them come here, CLIMB!!!"
OTHO good offence needs a lot of communication.
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Originally posted by ccvi
I don't think a good defence close to a field (not forward CAP) requires much communication, except maybe calling out where enemies are coming from etc.
And of course "Stupid fighters, two on the one low con is enough, rest of you climb, damnit! Climb!! Before more of them come here, CLIMB!!!"
OTHO good offence needs a lot of communication.
Ccvi! How many times have I not seen 5 or 6 Rooks dive after that lone Tiffie, and find myself circling alone at 15K awaiting the next hoard.