Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: brady on November 09, 2002, 07:48:03 PM
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Lets take a look at the comparative weights of fire of the primary apponts in the Curent CT set up:
P40b:
Four Browning 30M2 1200 rpm / 490 rpg @ 835m/s, weight 9.73g=15.89
Two Browning 50cal 750 rpm / 380 rpg @ 870m/s, weight 48.5g=38.64
Total:54.53
Huricane MK I:
Eight Browning 303's 1140 rpm / 333 rpg @ 745m/s, weight 11.3g=26.406
A6M2:
Two Type 97 7.7mm 1000 rpm / 680 rpg @750m/s, weight 11.3g=15.368
Two Type 99 MK I 20mm 520 rpm / 60 rpg @525m/s, weight 129g=29.76
Total:45.129
C.202:
Two Breda SAFAT 7.7mm 900 rpm / 500 rpg @730 m/s, weight 11.9g=13.222
Two Breda SAFAT 12.7mm 700 rpm / 400 rpg @ 760 m/s, weight 36.7g=41.94
Total: 55.16
The Nate(Ki-27) and the Oscar(ki-43 early model) both had only Two 7.7mm MG's, so clearly they would be at a serious firepower disavantage, or rather "Firepower Chalanged":), the A5M and it's Oerlikon MG FF which are vewry simmilar to the Type 99 MK I ( they should be the Type 99 is a licensed vershion of it), are very much on a par with the Zero, so in this respect the Zero Matches what the Claud had to delever compared with the Match up aganst the P40.
Somthing the above Numbers do not cover is Effctive range, the US 50 cal has a tremendious effective range advantage over the 20mm and 7mm rounds on the Zero, at least 3 times the range, this being said the 50cal could acheave meaningfull hits withen an envelope at least 3 time larger than Zero's.
Another point not covered is time on target, the 8 gun pack on the Huricane can deleaver damage Four times faster than the Japanese 7mm rounds.
When I say the Allies have a fire Power advantage this is what I am refering to, compound that advantage with the Fragile Zero, and tough P40 and Huricane and you have the full picture.
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The importance of cannon on the A6m2 can notbe overstated.
A couple of hits on the tail of a hurricane or P40 and hes toast.
Interestingl, the zeke CAN take .30 cals hits, as l;ong as nothing impotant is hit... like to fuel tank.
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Brendo has the right idea. The cannon on the Zeke more than make up for the slightly lower weight of fire (weight of fire tends to favor MG's over cannon since it doesn't account for the chemical energy of cannon shells). The Zero has more punch; it can do more damage in a short time. OTOH the Allied fighters have larger ammo loads.
But like I said in that other thread, it's too late now. Oh well maybe next time.
J_A_B
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The Chemical engery of cannon rounds virsues the pentrating effect of MG rounds have been debated at length and the general consious is that both are effective in their own right.
So having said that a good burst of that 8 pak of 303's will saw the wing off the Zero or set to it burning, same for the gun package on the P40.
A common thing over heard on the Japanese Local Voice: " I am RTB outa Cannon..."
Cannon on the Zero is it's only realy effective weapon and thier is precious little ammo for them, and they go fast.
P40E:
Six Browning 50cal 750 rpm / 235 rpg @ 870m/s, weight 48.5g=91.18
When poundering the Ballance of the above plane set and thinking of the P40E the figure of 91.18 might seam by it's self an overwhealming advantage considering how frail the Zero is.Howeaver their are other factors preformance issues, How hard will it be for the P40 to get rounds on target, clearly the Zero is a superd preformer, but not on a grand scale, it is a much better handeling plane true, but a lot of these points fall toward that of piolet skill and knowledge of his plane and that of apponet.
Now lets look at what was the Historical Zero that faced off aganst the "E" on more of an equial baises:
A6M3:
Two Type 97 7.7mm 1000 rpm / 680 rpg @750m/s, weight 11.3g=15.368
Two Type 99 MKII 20mm 490 rpm /100 rpg @ 625 m/s, weight 129g=52.65
Total=68.021
Now this is far better clearly but in more ways than one, the Slower rof actualy makes for imo better ammo usage, the Higher MV and longer barel mean better balastics, and thus a bigger envelope to be able to land meaningfull shots in.
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I typically have maybe one colision a week. Yesterday, I had 5. I usually keep firing at a plane until something vital breaks off. To me, th colisions are an indication that my guns suck, I've got to keep shooting until I'm too close.
I've also cut my deflection cannon shooting down to about 1/2 or 1/3 of my typical shooting range.
I've also been focusing my shots on the enemy plane's tail, while I typically shoot at the entire plane.
All guns in this set-up suck. As they should in an early war set-up.
eskimo
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The "cannon" on the zeke are not your typical "cannon" round. They relied on chemical energy not in their penetration capability.
Its great how allied guys tell the folks who fly these planes how effective they are. :rolleyes: They are not. d300 is the absolute maximum range for these rounds to be effective.
.50 cal and hispano rounds can easily destroy aircraft up to d800 and cause damage up to 1.2k. All .50 cal and hizooka planes can reach out and grab ya. For a a6m2 to be effective it has to be in close. The slightest evasives at speeds above 325 the a6m2 has a tough time following. No matter what the speed advantage or accelleration or climb advantage the .50 cal and hizooka plane turn on the hose and hold that trigger down until you are 1.5 out most of the time.
Those of you who doudt the ranges at which .50 cals and hispanos can reach you are living in a dream world.
There are 60 rpg in the a6m2. They fire together. Thats 60 trigger pulls. It cant do more damage in a shorter time. It can do more damage closer in with less rounds. But it cant deliver rounds faster the any other type gun.
In rl they didnt have this problem. With the exception of a few anecdotal and unverified claims most pilots in all sides during world war 2 say that hitting and killing at the ranges we see hizooka and 50 cal planes fire in ah was nothing but spray and pray.
Dont try to sell the guys who fly these planes some bs that the cannon on the a6m2 are as effective or equal to anything else in the arena. Even the hurri 1 303s can drop a planes faster then the 20s on an a6m2.
Brady is correct that when looking at balance you need to look at everything. a 50 mph speed advantage means nothing when at top speed the a6m2 is unmanuverable and if you can be hit and damaged out to 1.2k.
Every axis guy that flew in the ct regularly has moved on. They got tired of every pac event it being every allied planes verses the a6m5 and ki-61. They got tired of tunisia where the p51b and p38l were available for the allies but we end up hearing the allied whines that the a5 is too good or that they need the spit 9 for "balance".
So the a6m2 is faster then the p40e......... so what. The p51b was not only faster then the a6m5 but its 4 50s could reach out and grab you from ranges that the a6m2 could never get on your slow p40e.
I could list numerous set ups where the axis ave had the very same circumstance as the allies claim having to face the a6m2 in p40bs.
Suk it up ..........
Brady is dead on here..............
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Originally posted by Wotan
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So the a6m2 is faster then the p40e......... so what. The p51b was not only faster then the a6m5 but its 4 50s could reach out and grab you from ranges that the a6m2 could never get on your slow p40e.
Has anyone tested this in AH? I've been having P-40s consistantly outrunning me in my A6M (low).
eskimo
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actually I hadnt checked
the top speed for the a6m2 is at 15k 330 mph
top speed p40b is 340 at 18k
The p40b is faster at all alts up to 20k and has it greatest speed advantage between 18 and 19k.
The p40b dives way better then the a6m2. It has greater control at higher speeds.
The p40b should just about own a zeke. The p40b when in trouble can dive away at will. If the zeke follows at those speeds the p40 can out turn and out fly it.
I guess I bought into the AWM. The p40b should handle its own in this set up. The p40 is faster and dives better. The a6m2 climbs and turns better a speeds under 350.
The a6m2 is faster above 20k only...........but its not like you can b n z in it.
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Originally posted by Wotan
actually I hadnt checked
the top speed for the a6m2 is at 15k 330 mph
top speed p40b is 340 at 18k
The p40b is faster at all alts up to 20k and has it greatest speed advantage between 18 and 19k.
The p40b dives way better then the a6m2. It has greater control at higher speeds.
The p40b should just about own a zeke. The p40b when in trouble can dive away at will. If the zeke follows at those speeds the p40 can out turn and out fly it.
I guess I bought into the AWM. The p40b should handle its own in this set up. The p40 is faster and dives better. The a6m2 climbs and turns better a speeds under 350.
The a6m2 is faster above 20k only...........but its not like you can b n z in it.
Thanks Wotan, I thought that's about how it was.
Very cool charts BTW, where did you find them?
eskimo
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Here (http://www.jannousiainen.net/online_sims/jg_4/index.htm)
Jochen put these together using the data from the ah charts.
Scroll to the bottom and you can ebter climb/speed for all ah fighters.
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Actually those charts don't always match the AH charts. I'm not sure which are accurate.
BTW Brady, the real historical opponent for the P-40E is neither the A6M2 nor the A6M3, it is the Ki-43-I/Ki-43-II. You're trying to make it look as if we're short-changing the Japanese by using the A6M2, when in reality they have a fighter which is vastly superior to what they were actually using!
Wotan complaint that once the Zero is out of cannons it has to RTB because all it has is 7.7's is funny....well guess what Wotan, all the Japanese fighters in Burma had at this time was 7.7's...well okay the Ki-43-Ia had one 12.7. Now *I* would NEVER make a setup restricting one side to only 2 light MG's (although I'm sure some of the CT staffers would if we had a Ki-43/Ki-27), BUT to complain about the Zeke's firepower when it is FAR better than what the Japanese were actually using at the time......that's just funny.
Wotan--
While I understand what you're saying, the poor balance of the CT setups isn't anyone's fault but the CT staffers. They're the ones in charge so they need to take responsibility for goofing up. It's not our (the players) fault, not HTC's fault, nobody's fault but theirs. Long ago I had some discussions with some of them about being historical vs being balanced and I was ignored.....they slaved themselves to the idea of trying to be historical at all costs for so long that it hurt. Only recently have they begun to open their minds a little.
Oh, next time we have a late-war Germany setup, I fully expect the LW to NOT get the Me-262 (even as a perk). As the omission of the P-40E proves, if a fighter is good enough that people would fly it instead of the "bad" one, then it must not be included at all. C'mon guys, you want to be "fair" to both sides don't you?? :)
J_A_B
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Wotan speaks the truth.
I'll take 2 50 cals over the 2 cannons in the A6m2 anyday.
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Its nobodies fault but we dont need every set up with the gameplay concession advantages for allied aircraft.
When making game adjustments the allies are happy to use a p38l even though its a later war plane then the 190d9. They are happy with a p51b instead of earlier version.
But when the a5 was enabled (performance between the a3 a4 a5 is neglible with the accelleration edge to the a3) in tunisia even though the p38 the p51b and the d11 were available folks still argued about not having the spit 9. Even though there were only a few stationed NA itself.
No one minds gameplay concessions. We all know they are necessary. But when the concessions are always one sided folks will just say forget it.
In the bob setups folks allies whined about the the ju88a-4. Even though its only 12 mph faster then the a5 and 24 mph faster then the a1.
Brady flies these planes he flies the a6m2 in events he and I both know the 20mm on the a6m2 are not worth 2 50 cals. So when doing a Burma set up we dont have a claud so the axis get the a6m2. Its no different then subing a p51b for an early model 51.
fyi I never complained about 7mm on the a6m2. Ever. Like on the emil they are mostly worthless. The 20mm on the a6m2 are gone before you know it.
What I complain about is not that the rifle calibre and small mg are under modelled but that folks who fly allied planes fire and kill with ease at ranges that are far from real. Thats a built in gameplay concession for the allies.
Folks can deal with lower lethality guns but when with the spray and pray of the allied planes there lethality is much higher then it was in realife. Anecdotal and unverified claims be damned.
You allies ignore this time and time again. No matter what the axis planes are armed with we still need to be in close to kill with them. But with spray and pray no acceleration or speed difference will make up for it.
That chart is accurrate.
We have np not having the 262, just the allies will get no p47d, p51ds or p38ls if we are forced to fly 109g6s. Again you ignore those gameplay concessions as well.
The p40b was in burma we dont have a claud so we the zeke is a sub. Just like in tunisia where theres no early 51 or jug or p38 and the allies get late war subs.
Anyway, it doesnt matter none of the original axis pilots who flew in the ct still fly there and theres a reason for it.
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Well, I got 4 kills in the A6M2 and only used 50% of my cannon. I had to RTB due to my buddy P6Hawk getting a hole in his fuel tank.
I fired at ranges between 100 yards and 20.
1 or 2 shells are all that are required.
This is fairly historically accurate IMHO.
No one sniped me from range... a bit of manouvering will fix that.
When I flew a P40, I also got over 4 kills. I would have more, but my guns were not killing the zekes instantly (I think my .50 cals were missing). I fired from 300 yards.
I found the P40B nose mounted .50s wildly inaccurate.
A Zeke latched onto my tail, however I outran him 1 yard at a time. At 700 yards, he was plinking away, however I was not concened due to the massvive range for 8mm.
Incidently, I have about 20 kills flying the Spit I in the MA so far....... and no deaths.
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"..the Fragile Zero.."
ain't seen to many these, if any in this setup
flaming smoking, they fly just as well as zero damage for way to long
looking forward to next friday
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Originally posted by Eagler
"..the Fragile Zero.."
ain't seen to many these, if any in this setup
flaming smoking, they fly just as well as zero damage for way to long
looking forward to next friday
The A6M-5 is one of my main MA rides, and has been for a long time. I've been set on fire maybe 100 times in it. Been able to ditch 2, maybe 3 times. If you are low and slow in one when it catches on fire, you might be able to put it down before it blows. My experience has shown, once a zero is on fire, its as good as dead.
eskimo
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Yeah, Brendo is a great wingman. (warbirds days were a blast with him
).
I had no kills and four assists that sortie...hmmm go figure!!
Here are a few of my problems;
1. Computer...I get lousy frame rates and "missed/not registering" hits at the required in close range needed to cause leathel damage. When I get a the required in close face full of fighter, my frame rate drops to about 9fps. Also, if there is a furball (5 or 6 planes), stratus clouds and/or puff ack, my frame rate drops to unplayable....etc etc etc.
2. Connections...I get a continuous spikes also causing unregistering hits. Been putting up with this for years. I live out in the boonies. I am lucky to have internet access.
These problems along with only having a limited supply of ammo in the Zero make for a night of nothing but assisted kills and fast RTBs.
Most of my kills are from non-snap shots, a couple vs a couple, sneaks...anything that takes little work for my computer.
Not that I do or even want to but flying in the MA is not good for these reasons. I stick to VHs in the MA much like I do in the CT. I get better game play with less frustrations. Hell, I really dont get upset when I get bombs droped on me..lol When ever I do hit a flying machine...by god it falls!!!!!!!!!!
Sooooo to sum it up, I get kills when I fly in a low attendance, non furballing, clear day (puffy clouds ok for some reason), pretty good connection arena no matter what I fly....def not the MA is it?
I get shot down no matter what.... :rolleyes:
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Yes, but you have to get it burning first.:D
The Zekes in here dont seem to as fragile as they're made out to be in articles I've read.
BTW, have I missed a post from the "Allied Whine Mafia" lately?
just curious, seems like somebodys a little peeved with the Allies.
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Wotan, I wont' say anything harsh since Skuzzy doesn't want us to make personal attacks, but I think your directing your feelings in the wrong direction.
"What I complain about is not that the rifle calibre and small mg are under modelled but that folks who fly allied planes fire and kill with ease at ranges that are far from real. Thats a built in gameplay concession for the allies. "
This comment is so blindly one-sided that I'll let it speak for itself. This sort of comment only damages your credibilitym since it suggests a sinister motive where there is none.
On a different note~
Just in case you forgot (since you seem to have forgot), we the players don't choose CT setups. So if there's a CT setup that's unbalanced in favor of the Allies (like a retarded subbing of a P51B for a P51A), then that's the STAFFERS fault. Not "us allies", so perhaps you should have taken this up with your former fellow staffers instead of complaining about US...your players. You of all people certainly had the ability to get things done, yet you'd rather sit and complain about the people who can't control it! That accomplishes NOTHING.
BTW, in various CT setups I've flown for Axis more often than I have for Allied, so including me in "you Allies" is hardly accurate. Besides, WW2 ended nearly 60 years ago and I am neither "allied" nor "axis"....I am a guy sitting in front of a computer. In the CT I don't much care about which side is which.....I don't have any loyalty to imaginary countries in a computer game. I really don't give a rat's arse who is pretending to be "allied" or "axis". I think you take your imaginary service to "der fatherland" a bit too seriously--there is no reason to carry this persona outside of the online environment of AH.
Calm down and think it over Wotan. I've got nothing against you personally (in fact I think you're a good flier in AH and respect you as such), but this "blame game" really accomplishes nothing, and your anger is directed at the wrong people.
Oh, how did Jochen develop his JAVA charts? since they don't match the HTC charts in some cases, did he test every airplane individually? It'd be nice to know.
J_A_B
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J_A_B, you just called me a retard! now thats seams like a personal remark:)
I am prety shure the Claud faught the P40 on a few ocashions, I am also shure that in the SW Pacifiv that the Primary apponent of the P40E was the A6M3, I was refering to the bigger picture in general, I know that Claudes did in fact fight in China and that the Burma map is a generalised background for that theater as well, so the gunpackage on that Zero is pretymuch bang on.
Wotans frustration with the modeling of the 50cal and it's effect in the game is well founded imo, it extends to all kinds of thing's effective range vs aircraft armor defeating abailityes are widely exagerated, this is not so much a statement of a preceavied bias as a matter of fact. While I would be hard presed to beleave any of these are conciuos efforts by HTC their is a list as long as my arm of outa wack things that when looked at on the whole seam to point to what could be lossely termed and Allied(US) Bias.
eskimo, is right, I have a ton of time in the MA in the Zero, over 300 kills on some tours in it, once it starts burning u nead to ditch asap, u dont have long to live.
J_A_B I am sory you find fault with sabres choice for this set up I personaly think it well balanced given the tools we have to work with, apparently no matter of convincing no matter how well presented will convince you otherwise, that is your right m8t, hopefully you will find the next one more enjoyable, Buzz has an intersting one cooking maybe the Hellcat vs the Tony will be more to your liking.
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Don't take this stuff too seriously Brady, this entire conversation will be meaningless a week from now :)
No YOU aren't retarded, but you made a bad decision. Hey, it happens. Remember way back when they used Typhoons as beaufighters in Afrika Corps? THAT was a bad idea heh heh.
Oh, and as for Wotan....it's not the claim of some bugs/problems favoring the Allied planeset that I take exception to....it's his suggestion that HTC made it that way as a deliberate effort against the Axis planeset.
J_A_B
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Well J_A_B, I am happy that you cleared up the fact that you think it was a bad deshion for the record I do not:), I do screw the pouch perodicaly though, the Freee F4U-4 in my kuriels rerun in the summer was not one of my brighter moments.:)
I try and take all this very seriously, it is my job to build good set up's and I try and pay attention to that, I also try and be objective to all sources of input and give the proper weight to who and what are relavent.
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The Axis fighter set is woefully overmatched this set-up.
Sakai
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Originally posted by Sakai
The Axis fighter set is woefully overmatched this set-up.
Sakai
This is Sakai's well-known sarcasm.
I hope.
It's interesting to see how art follows life. Regardless of whatever the stats may imply, one on one the P40B has been dogmeat. So what happens? The allies learn to fly together, and as a team the P40s do pretty well.
The Zeke v. Hurricane match seems fairly even, Zeke on top because of its climb, of course. But until they model those open cockpit Japanese planes, I can't see any scenario in which the P40B will be competitive.
- oldman
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Jab please dont make up stuff and dont try to "read between the lines". No where did I say HT modeled any plane wrong or even any ballistics.
I have made plenty of posts about what I think of the planeset and the ballistic modelling. Do a search and read that for direct answers. I am not going to bother with quoting and re typing questions that are already answered.
Dont make stuff up to prove a point.
Oh, and as for Wotan....it's not the claim of some bugs/problems favoring the Allied planeset that I take exception to....it's his suggestion that HTC made it that way as a deliberate effort against the Axis planeset.
I never said any of that.
Regardless of whether or not the ballistic model is correct the fact is that hispanos and 50 cals hit and kill at ranges beyond what was "normal" is rl.
Save your time posting the few anecdotal pilot stories about miracle kills at d800. They are about as credible as jugs bouncing bullets into the underside of a tank and killing it.
What I said was with 50 cals and hispanos, even the newest of the new guys, can spray and pray and kills. This is in effect a "built in gameplay advantage". Gameplay meaning that in the context of the game with range and ammo counters its relatively easy to zero in longer range shots. Any speculation you make beyond that is on you.
Dont tell me that the kill range for 50s and hispanos is not an advantage.
For a few to cry foul over the inclusion of the a6m2 in this set up or suggest that its unfair and that the allies need to p40e as an equalizer to the a6m2 is bogus. Especially when the allies in a lot of these setups enjoyed an even greater advantage with the subs it recieved. Even with those subs in some cases the allies cried for more.
BTW, in various CT setups I've flown for Axis more often than I have for Allied, so including me in "you Allies" is hardly accurate. Besides, WW2 ended nearly 60 years ago and I am neither "allied" nor "axis"....I am a guy sitting in front of a computer. In the CT I don't much care about which side is which.....I don't have any loyalty to imaginary countries in a computer game. I really don't give a rat's arse who is pretending to be "allied" or "axis". I think you take your imaginary service to "der fatherland" a bit too seriously--there is no reason to carry this persona outside of the online environment of AH.
All this is in your head. Again dont make stuff up. When I speak of allies and axis its into the context of this game. Any confusion you have about that is on you. All I fly is axis planes in Aces High. There are guys who only Allied planes in Aces High. You fly more allied planes then anything. You can include or exclude yourself in either as you wish.
In the context of Aces High its an obvious way to destinguish between two types of players based on planeset. Any advantage the axis side in regards to planeset substitutions in this ct set up is minor. Its far less then what the allied side has had in previous set ups.
The 20mm on the a6m2 while deadly in close is off set by the range of the 50 cal planes. Any performance advantage gained by the a6m2 is tempered by the fact the p40b is faster below 20k, its handling at high speed and its dive ability.
This set up is as balanced as any other.
Anything that you read into to this reply other then what is typed is on you.
As for your "temptation" to get "personal" if you read my replies they are clearly on the subject matter. If you take offense to being labeled an "axis" or "allied" player then simply exclude yourself. You can do that on your front end while being
a guy sitting in front of a computer
If any thing I typed doesnt apply to you, then dont apply it.
your imaginary service to "der fatherland" a bit too seriously--there is no reason to carry this persona outside of the online environment of AH.
If I were apply this statement to myself I may be inclined to believe you are making a veiled attempt to call me a Nazi. But since nothing in that quote is correct or could "apply" to me I have no reason to take offence.
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Everyone, take a moment to contemplate the fact that there are so many people on boths sides of this debate, then contemplate further the difficult task of deciding what to put in and what to leave out of a CT set up like this. I do more than my share of PTO/CBI set ups, but even in late war ETO set ups the task is never simple and straight forward, and there are always cries of bias/unfairness/unhistorical/unbalanced/"e-all of the above." Please just remember...it's a game, and no set up is going to please everyone.
We (the CT staff) discussed this set up. Originally I considered putting the P-40E in, but our conscensus was that it would dominate the A6M2. "Well, add the Ki-61," someone suggested. "But that would unbalance it in favor of the IJN," it was pointed out, "and it's not historical." "Well, neither is the A6M," was the rejoinder.
In the end, I decided that the firepower on the Allied side would be balanced by the A6M's superior performance in other areas. I wished to preserve something of the historical balance of the time and theater (working within the limited planeset), while not completely overburdening one side or the other. K/D ratio's seem to indicate that the IJ are holding their own. Arena numbers on the other hand have been rather lower than I expected (as Buzz's little poll indicated this was a popular set up). Would adding the P-40E change that? Probably not, as it would simply reduce the number of people flying IJ. My opinion only of course.
I've flown both sides in this set up, and felt not terribly over-matched from a technological stand point. Indeed, I've had some great fights. Fortunately for those who find the planeset less than to their tastes, it only lasts for a week.
Sabre
CT-Staff (and needing a vacation)
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Originally posted by Oldman731
This is Sakai's well-known sarcasm.
Yes, it is, we aren't that overmatched. Basically the Axis is hampered by me flying for them.
In one on ones I have done quite well, usually getting killed through sloppiness. The biggest issue has been face shooting and 3 on 1s. The zeke does not face fight well, it is so poorly armored. I think the greatest allied advantage is the capacity to handle well in dives. They can dive away out of any fight. The compressing, "Fat stick" phenom is problematic for Herr Rising Sun.
But in one on ones, the P-40s and Hurris generally fold.
I do think range, rate of fire, and lethality is an issue only because the zeke's are so poorly armored. I usually bore in for the fight regardless, but I think if a man chose his fights judiciously, you'd have your fair share of wins flying the zeke-a-matic.
I also wish the zeke had some more cannon ammo, all my kills have required too much of my lethality. I can't imagine trying to kill TBMs in one.
Trying to talk the whole squad into coming up Tuesday, say 6-14 of us? Hope to get us in there on a regular basis, on some night.
Sakai
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Originally posted by Wotan
The p40b was in burma we dont have a claud so we the zeke is a sub. Just like in tunisia where theres no early 51 or jug or p38 and the allies get late war subs.
Some historical background. There were no Claudes (A5M) deployed in Burma or China at the time the AVG was flying. Moreover, the AVG was not flying the P-40B either. Their aircraft was a hybrid, a cross between the Tomahawk IIA and the Tomahawk IIB, Some were later fitted with custom built Allisons (hand-built spares) that made about 20% more power than the standard engines used in all of the Curtiss H-81 series. The extra power resulted in many failures of the fragile planetary reduction gear. This was fixed with the P-40D/Kittyhawk Mk.I aircraft.
In Burma, the AVG faced the IJAAF, who were largely equiped with the Ki-27 Nate, but were re-equiping with the Ki-43. No Zeros were deployed to the theater either, although pre-production A6Ms were tested against the Chinese. In terms of speed and firepower, the Tomahawk badly outclassed the Ki-43, and was vastly superior to the obsolete Ki-27. All the AVG had to do was avoid turning fights, and there was little the Japanese fighters could do with them. Eventually, the AVG began to receive P-40Es as replacements, ferried in from the middle east.
AVG aircraft had no provision for external bombs or fuel tanks. This is because their aircraft, taken from a British contract for Tomahawk IIBs, were manufactured using left over fuel tanks and fuel system plumbing from the Tomahawk IIA/P-40B production runs. As a result, Curtiss designated these aircraft as H-81A3. (H-81A2 being the standard Tomahawk IIB).
My regards,
Widewing
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wow surprised I missed this axis sleeper whine post. I cant believe someone could find something to whine about in this setup, but there it is!
A6M2 has 165 Kills of P-40B
P-40B has 142 Kills of A6M2
Hurricane Mk I has 123 Kills of A6M2
A6M2 has 164 Kills of Hurricane Mk I
yawn.......
now what could that mean about the guys complaining about allied planes in this setup?
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I have flown both sides this setup, and the last time this setup came up also. As long as you try to avoid flying to your aircraft's weakness you'll do fine on either side. Hints for allies: try to match alt of incoming zekes, but more importantly dive a bit to gain speed so that you are doing around 300 mph at the merge. This gives you room to escape or do slashing attacks (take a shot - it might pay off, but don't linger too long). Having buds around is essential. Hint for axis: You are faster than the hurricane and climb better than the P40. On the merge, avoid the inevitable guns pass (I would do the same in the P40 in some situations.. so no HO this or HO that arguement here), and climb for reverse. Maintain your E and you'll find the P40's below you... pick one, make a pass and get back up b/c the others will be attempting to get a few holes in you (doesn't take much). You can fly less conservatively (yank the stick around) when buds are around.
It would be interesting to try Ki-27 vs P40's. As for the Ki-43, I can only get 3 kills before running out of cannon. After that the armament is the same, albiet in a faster package.
mauser
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ergRTC nice stats where can I find them?
Can you go back and theck the stats on kill/death ratio now?
I see wayyyyy more P-40s landing kills than A6M2s.
The P-40s deaths come from furballing and more than non furballing with many trailers inbound pretty much preventing the zeros from RTBing and landing any of those kills. .....u know, mini-MA
Also I see way too many Hurrican/P-40 mixtures. Certainly this ends up being a mini-MA...but coincides with the name "Combat Arena" not "Historical Arena" It is little bitter sweet. The HUrrican complaments the P-40 and allows the P-40 to turn fight a bit more than without the Hurrican. I see less running when Hurricans company P-40s.
As much as I yack about "runners" I do the same thing when I have to and when I can!!!!!
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Those numbers come from the kill stats page under scores. Not sure about the ratio. Will have to see if you can do that.
erg
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well on the "historical" (lazer) side, the a6m2 should not even be here. So complaining about a hurri that cant turn with it anyway seems reaching. Hurricane (as the stats show) is a suicide flight at best unless your a really good and lucky pilot.
As of this time I am 1:1 in the CT.
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I am suprised to see the Huricane doing as porely as it is, my gues is that people are taking to much fuel and not turn fighting with flaps aganst the Zero, bearing that in mind when I fly it aganst the Zero it seams to do quiet well.
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I'de have to agree that the allied MG have the advantage.The amount of zero 20mm a biggie, plus in furballs zero takes much less damage to bring down. If there was another plane during that time that would help the axis, bring it aboard. Someone mention this maybe? With this planeset, how did the japanese walk through burma(or anywhere where there were hurcs and spits)? Gimme hurcs and spits over zeros any day.
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When they were walking through it was before the p40s showed up right? They were fighting a land war mostly, backed up with tactical bombers weaker than the nate. I think.
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Remember that the Chines air force was a small, poorly trained, poorly equiped, and poorly led organization before the AVG showed up. The courage of the individual Chines pilot was not the problem...they were just waaaay outclassed by the Japanese. Even after the AVG showed up, it was only three (often understrength) squadrons trying to protect an appreciable portion of the Earth's landmass. One of those squadrons was their training squadron; as such it was place out of the main threat axis, to allow it's pilots time to acclaimate to combat in a somewhat less frantic pace. So only two of those three squadrons were bearing the brunt of that responsibility. Much of the AVG's success was due to the early warning system of spotters put into place, allowing the AVG to make the most of their modest numbers.
Indeed, Japan was a victim of their own early success in China. From it, they drew all the wrong conclusions when designing the fighters that would face the Allies in the wider war to follow. Manueverability and range were emphasised at the expense of durrability, speed, and firepower, with the now-historically evident results.
Sabre
CT Staff
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As sabre points out Japanese planes suffered from this design philosphy untill the end of the war when they finaly started making their planes more robust, the N1K- and Ki 84 are examples of the change in design, they were still very manuaverable but sported better firepower and tougher airframes incourperating armor, fire sys, and self sealing tanks.
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And cup holders; don't forget the cup holders...little ones...for those tiny sake cups.
Sabre
CT Staff
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DOH, how could I, did i tell ya sabre I got this great book from Japan on the Ki 84, it shows quiet clearly the cooling system and bottle holder for the saki, placed so the piolet could easly reach it, and designed like a heat pump to keep it chilled at the perfect tempature.
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The Zero, at least, was not designed so much for maneuverability as it was to reach a certain level of performance using a somewhat under-powered engine. The maneuverability was a by-product of a pressing need to save weight (and in fact by Japanese standards of the time the Zeke actually lacked maneuverability).
J_A_B
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......here lately the Hurrican will outfly the Zero if flown correctly. The Hurrican will out turn a Zero in a heartbeat. That is not right PERIOD! It seems that the allies are so use to B&Z that they forget the Hurrican is porked. Slow it down, use flaps and it will out fight a Zero. 2 vs 1 I have absolutely no time to even think about getting on someones six and damn lucky to RTB with my tail between my legs! (unless they both are rookies)
To top it all off, the zero flys like crap at slow speeds. Its slugish and will stall and snap roll into the ground in a split sec. practicaly without warning. I have stalled, crashed, been shot down more and gotten them into flat spins more in two months than I did in four years in WBs. Actually I NEVER got one into any type of flat spin in WBs. Very seldon did I EVER spin one into the ground in WBs. So which model is porked, WBs or HA? or both? or me? Pull the power off and the zero drops at 3 to 4,000 fpm...thats total BS!! When you run outta gas, you drop practicaly straight down. Also the damn thing lands worse than a Spit in the three point attitude. Do a wheel landing at 105 mph and it lands like a freaken F4U! (Hot and Fast), anything slower and you better watch the flare and the edges of the runway!
If you die in a P-40 you just got plum STUPID.
If you die in a Hurrican, your out numbered or not flying it right.
If you survive in a Zero, your a DAMN GOOD PILOT...or get a lucky extend from a Hurrican!!!..cause its too damn slow to run home.
It doesnt matter if the A6M2 does or doesnt belong in the set-up. YOU WILL NEVER SEE A SET-UP WERE THE AXIS HAVE A BETTER ALL AROUND PLANE THAN THE ALLIES.....PERIOD!
Forget the scores, they are BS...lets face it, The CT is a MINI-MA. Damn near tempted to join Shane's MINI-MA Squadron if he would let me...:D Anything can shoot down anything if the furball is big enough with a continuos flow of traffic to and from the furball!
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Originally posted by CurtissP-6EHawk
......here lately the Hurrican will outfly the Zero if flown correctly. The Hurrican will out turn a Zero in a heartbeat.
The trick in this situation, for the Zero pilot, seems to be to just keep going up a bit during the turn fight. The hurri can out turn the zeke, but it can't out turn it at the same time as it climbs.
- oldman (who finds that the Zeke has been so uber that this is the first setup he would call "unbalanced")
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I wouldnt say unbalanced, but if have noticed some zero pilots complaining about instability at low speed. This leads me to believe it is the zeke pilot and not hurricane. You can fly that zeke like a go cart without ever losing it. Just gotta use your rudder to keep the nose pointing where you want it.
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Ya that climbing turn got me the other day aganst Eskimo, I was in a huricane, baged a zero and looked back to see one boring in broke hard and started fighting, I choped power till the flaps came out jamed it forward and started a good turn fight, got hitss on him but he baged me with that manuaver, I remember looking up behind me suprised to see him climbing during the turns untill he had the advantage, was a slick move, I will never forget it:)
The funny thing is I see P40's down low and trying to turn fight Zero's all the time, and I always ask my self, wtf are they thinking?
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Originally posted by brady
Ya that climbing turn got me the other day aganst Eskimo, I was in a huricane, baged a zero and looked back to see one boring in broke hard and started fighting, I choped power till the flaps came out jamed it forward and started a good turn fight, got hitss on him but he baged me with that manuaver, I remember looking up behind me suprised to see him climbing during the turns untill he had the advantage, was a slick move, I will never forget it:)
The funny thing is I see P40's down low and trying to turn fight Zero's all the time, and I always ask my self, wtf are they thinking?
I remember that fight Brady, it was a good one. I think I had a fight or two with oldman that were similar as well.
Salute guys!
eskimo
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ergRTC you may be right. I dont have a twisty stick any more and have to use the "A", "S" and "D" keys for rudder, no peds. The keys are not very good for slow fighting. Not only that but when I move my hand from the keys to the throttle in a dogfight, replacing my finger to the wrong key happens alot!! There is a good chance I am getting a bit more cross control in slow turns because of that. As far as everything elsssssse, well I guess its what you are use to flying and having to re-adjust to a DIFFERENT FLIGHT MODEL!
AH says noting is wrong with thier zero.
WBs said nothing was wrong with thier zero...well one of them is wrong because they fly different.
cheers!!!
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I am not saying the fm isnt porked hawk. I dont think the ah zero model is good either. Most of the reports I have read said that the ijn was scared to bring em over 350 in fear of the wings ripping off. In this game I have filmed dives of exceeding 570 mph without losing anything but the rudder (?? wtf). Oh yeah, and I pulled out of that dive too.
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yeah, 570? who cares? You caint do anything that fast but see what you are about to crash into...lol
Going 400 mph in a straight lvl flight after barly pulling out of a dive only makes me a nice straight flying target for whom ever was chasing me. The extra speed mearly delays death! However, I am sure most if not all FMs are in some way inacurate.
What about the "magic" under 200mph lower everything speeds?
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My beef with that is purely strat related. The way the p40s were supposed to escape from bad situations was to dive away. Real hard to do when zeros dont compress till 400 and even then its not much worse than the p40 (spiraling down doesnt help either, I flew a zero for a day just to see if I ever had a problem diving after p40s, nope, easy as can be). They will do nothing about it though. I sent a picture of my film viewer showing my a6m2 doing 570 at 3000 feet when they first released it (bug reports). No response.
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Hawk, you not having better rudder cotrol is seriously hampering you bro. ( no toejam right) i cant see even trying to fly like you do but you still put up good numbers. Nice job. now get some real rudder controls:D
p.s. mauser, where did you get a Ki-43 to fly?
p.s.s. where are you guys getting your info on the effective range of the weapons?