Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Sachs on November 12, 2001, 12:57:00 AM
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When the Ta-152 has as many kills as the 202, ju88 and the C47 so far this tour. How about lowering the value a little more? Say within Chog level?
C-47A 169 2064 0.0818
C.202 163 371 0.4382
Ju 88 175 662 0.2640
Ta 152H 172 57 2.9655
Seems the 262 is the only widely used perk ride.
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The propblem with the Ta152H-1 and Tempest is that they aren't significantly better than the free rides. An La-7 is nigh as fast as a Tempest. Even the Fw190D-9, Typhoon and P-51 are really close.
Why spend that many points for an aircraft that is only marginally better?
The Ar234B is very difficult to have any effect with due to its small payload. Furthermore it isn't terribly fast while it is carrying bombs, the vast majority of m 234 sorties have ended with me dropping my bombs in the middle of nowhere and running from a piston fighter.
The Me262 has such a great advantage in performance that it is worth spending the points to fly it.
I don't think that the number of points are the issue once a certain number has been reached, rather it is the capabilities of the aircraft. A 1000 perk point Me262 is still a better deal than a 70 point Tempest. People aren't willing to pay more than a token price for aircraft that only seem to have a slight edge in capability.
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Seems OK to me. Pretty sure the 202 and Ju 88 had many times more victories in WWII than the 152. :)
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Heh, nice one funked! :)
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Perk the C-47! :D
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HTC already said they'd lower the perk cost of the TA-152 until it started seeing some use. Whats it down to now? 30 points? Nope, still to much to pay for a mediocre aircraft, sorry. As it is the C-hog is probably the best perk for the money. And you that say the 262 is, go get shot by a C-Hog. You'll change your mind.
HTC won't lower the price of the TA-152 because it is "to good" of a plane for the MA (I suppose by some sort of crackhead logic that may even make sense). I guess if the price was lowered the average altitude of the fights in the MA might go up from 1,500 feet to 1,502 feet or something, which just doesn't fit in with the "Vision" <TM>.
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Whoa! Vision(tm) is a fanboy trademark of WWIIO. You are in violation of the EULA if you disseminate trademarked intellectual property in the improper forum applied to the incorrect software. I turn you over to AKNimitz and his tender mercies. ;)
With regards to perking the Ta-152, get over it. Big guns, big speed, and altitude has nothing to do with it. If you think making the thing cheaper will do anything but make it harder to fly the early war stuff, you are mistaken. Your argument about it having fewer kills than the 202 holds no water, either. It shouldn't. It is a perk ride, and the fact it isn't overrunning the arena is exactly the desired effect.
To tell you honestly, I don't much worry about any plane in a furball except the BnZ's like the Tempest and Fw's. They have the punch to kill in one pass and the speed to pull through the furball with impunity. Load the arena up with 262's, Tempests, and Ta's and see what variety of planes you have left.
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Our 152 get's a lot more use than the real one did. i say get rid of entirely or make it cost more. All it can do is run away if it misses the sneak up so... I gotta ask, who would fly such a thing and do we need more such players?
lazs
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laz.....you are an idiot, Im sorry i tried to think of a less insulting word for you but it keeps springing into my mind everytime I see your attacks of people who dont want to furball for 24hrs a day.
So the aircraft is suited to fast Bnz? so what?
so is the P51d ,F4uc,190a8,190d9,p38,p47,me262,Typhoon, Tempest ETC ETC. you want all of these removed? half of these are the top flown planes!
what ever late plane we remove there will ALWAYS be a plane suited to ,how do you put it, "sneak up" (idiot) open your eyes and check behind you! you dont you get killed.
why have these planes? because customers, with a few exceptions like yourself, want to see and fly them.
You keep telling us closer bases with more furballing and no stopping spawning by destroying just FH's will be the best way to play so why dont you ask for an arena for it?
Ill tell you why, its because you like everyone else in here knows that whatever other arena we see up people will still log on, see 99% of people in the MA and go straight there.
It doesnt matter how much we 'want' to fly historical or just duel or even practice in the TA, it still boils down to how many are already in a room! therefore they stay empty except for those who try their best to support a room and thats not many.You would sit in your furball arena with if you are lucky 15-20 other pilots (on a GOOD night) furballing away happy for a while and gradually the numbers would fall.Without the support from people, like CMs, it cannot take off.
Stop attacking a choice of ride or worse still the players who fly them!
"do we need such players?", you really are a total and utter.....
well you fill it in, I think you all know what i mean.
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This tour is not a good one to look at. With many people having problems blowing up on the runway, may proximity kills are being recorded. I would bet the C47 kills are coming from this.
Gunner <CAF>
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Originally posted by Karnak:
The Ar234B is very difficult to have any effect with due to its small payload. Furthermore it isn't terribly fast while it is carrying bombs, the vast majority of m 234 sorties have ended with me dropping my bombs in the middle of nowhere and running from a piston fighter.
The Me262 has such a great advantage in performance that it is worth spending the points to fly it.
234 was very useful as a tactical buff till 1.08. More than once 2-3 arado could turn tide away from the bishland by hitting fuel at the frontline fields. I really miss those strikes, they were fun.
If you spent time to get arado to 20k you would not need to ditch eggs.
me262 is waste of perks, but its fun to fly. Still hogc is still only perk plane which costs its perks.
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152 has as many kills as the 202 you say?
Solution isn't to lower the 152's price- the solution is to place a higher price on all currently perked aircraft and perked all the late '43/early '44 onward aircraft.
This will make people fly the 202 and get kills more representative of the work it did in WWII.
-SW
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Originally posted by funkedup:
Seems OK to me. Pretty sure the 202 and Ju 88 had many times more victories in WWII than the 152. :)
Is this a WW2 sim? Just curious, but if the plane is in here I don't care what usage or how much combat it saw. If it is in here then it nees to be reflected on current usage. Some planes such as the tempest do have a severe advantage downlow some have it high. How many fights do you see at 25-30k? Where the 152 will shine lol, it doesn't btw. down low anything short of a zero can catch it on the deck. I am not asking to unperk it, all I asked was for a reduction in price to Chog level, how is that so hard to get through everyone's thick noggen? Oh thats right this is the Chog lovin croud, how many were made? Just a handful more then the 152 interesting that shoots that validity point out the window. I know when I fly the 152 I earn every kill I get in it, and a lot of the time I am running like hell after I am spotted. And if I am at 10k or lower I will not get away. Take whatevr you want from this all I was asking for was a reduction in price.
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Originally posted by Fariz:
234 was very useful as a tactical buff till 1.08. More than once 2-3 arado could turn tide away from the bishland by hitting fuel at the frontline fields. I really miss those strikes, they were fun.
If you spent time to get arado to 20k you would not need to ditch eggs.
me262 is waste of perks, but its fun to fly. Still hogc is still only perk plane which costs its perks.
Totally agree with you on this one. Arado is called out before it gets to base swarm of 262's come up and chase ya down easily. Another one of the justified prices that needs to be looked at.
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So.. how many kills SHOULD the 152 have?
I do agree its perk cost should be lowered (to around 15), but you need to give an acceptable number for kills here. How many kills should the 152 be getting each tour?
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
So.. how many kills SHOULD the 152 have?
I do agree its perk cost should be lowered (to around 15), but you need to give an acceptable number for kills here. How many kills should the 152 be getting each tour?
AKDejaVu
How many sheep are in a farmers flock? That answer your question? :) At any rate I would be happy even with 15, I would even suggest upping the value on fighters such as a 202 to say 60-65 eny value. Just so it could get more usage. Make it more appealing to fly is what I am getting at. Yes the 152 has a 30mm landing it is a whole new subject. If you read my post in aircaft about adding attack options for the ju88 and tbm you would see more usage out of those as well. Even the b-26 should have an attack option. I hope this enlightens it a little more where I am going with this.
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"Is this a WW2 sim?"
Nope, and it isn't meant to be :)
It's an air combat game that happens to use WW2-era aircraft.
People who think the MA is somehow supposed to re-create WW2 air combat are missing the point. That's what scenarios are for.
I agree, lower Ta-152 price; it wouldn't hurt to see one every now and then.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by Karnak:
The propblem with the Ta152H-1 and Tempest is that they aren't significantly better than the free rides. An La-7 is nigh as fast as a Tempest. Even the Fw190D-9, Typhoon and P-51 are really close.
I agree about the Ta-152 but not the Tempest. The Tempest is a real beast, especially if you fly fast and BnZ. It is virtually untouchable and even if you get slow it will outaccelerate virtually any plane in AH. Keep the Temp price expensive but lower the price of the Ta-152 IMO.
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Grrrrrrrrr I hate it when I have to agree with you Mako!
Huge difference between the TA-152 & the tempest. Even to a LA-7 the tempest is nigh untouchable.
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Whereas an La7, or a good pilot in a P51d, 190d,109g10,la5,yak9u,F4u(any model),P47(really good pilot), or any other plane that makes about 350mph on the deck is going to hand the Ta-152 it's bellybutton in a fight. And that doesn't even count the 4-5 kewl_d00ds in spits that will jump in to gangbang you.
It can't be perked because of its inherent 'awesomeness', because it doesn't have any. It shouldn't be perked at 30 points because it was historically rare and had very little impact in ww2- at least not without taking a good hard look at a few other popular planes that had absolutely no impact on ww2 and were ALSO produced in very few numbers.
All this is really a dead bloated horse anyway. There is absolutely no point in debating why or why not the plane should see more usage than it does. Hitech, for whatever reason, wants the Ta-152 to be the least used plane in the game. That is fine, it is his game, his decision. He chooses not to engage in a debate on whether or not that decision has any merit. Again, his game, his choice. On that happy note, thats all I've got to say about it.
EDIT: I went back and checked the stats, just to remind myself of what I already knew. The C202 and C47 (with no GUNS) have had more kills than the Ta152 for 4 of the past 5 months... obviously this fact is not due to the recent 'runway death' bug.
[ 11-12-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
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Perk the La7, Yak9U, Spit9, FW 190D9, BF109G10 or unperk the TA imo.
:p
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Originally posted by Zygote:
Perk the La7, Yak9U, Spit9, FW 190D9, BF109G10 or unperk the TA imo.
:p
I agree with the last one. No need to perk teh others they die just fine. :)
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I agree about the Ta-152 but not the Tempest. The Tempest is a real beast, especially if you fly fast and BnZ. It is virtually untouchable and even if you get slow it will outaccelerate virtually any plane in AH. Keep the Temp price expensive but lower the price of the Ta-152 IMO.
I agree with Mako, <S>
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SW get's it... hazed and sachs don't.... but then... self interest seems to be the biggest factor in their case.
If you want the game to be a faster and faster late war game then lower the price of perk rides. If you want the game to have useful early planes then raise it. To have a 152 be in the arena but no spit ones 109E's P40's Wildcats, A6m2's etc... is idiotic.... not, sugggesting that they have a place eh hazed? I believe that most people like early and mid war planes. They find your ilk cowardly and annoying. I do not believe that encouraging your behaviour is best for parity and variety. I would even like to see 51's perked if "perking" is the best solution that HTC can come up with. I doubt that it (perk) is tho.
Furballs are secondary to getting early war planes in the game even tho furs (melees) are the only realistic, manly and SA taxing combat in the game.
Sooo... it would appear that it is actually you who is the idiot eh hazed?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs1:
Furballs are secondary to getting early war planes in the game even tho furs (melees) are the only realistic, manly and SA taxing combat in the game.
Okay, going off topic here but: How do you figure that furballs are the "only realistic, manly and SA taxing combat in the game"?
How many battles do you know of in WW2 (or any war for that matter) where both sides just kept throwing planes into a big furball for hours on end, pilots upping from fields 5 miles from the fight and flying straight into combat without gaining alt etc? IMO furballing is a result of the no-consquences-to-death game environment. If it were RL, I doubt any pilots would be so eager to entering furballs as they are here, with no teamwork and no heed to personal safety.
Also, furballing is the only way to measure how macho you are? :rolleyes: It's a game for goodness sake, how does a computer game measure how macho you are???? Besides, wading in like Rambo and spinning around in tight circles until you die doesn't strike me as a sign of how manly anyone is, just makes me think they should be playing Quake instead.
And finally, as far as testing your SA is concerned, there is a sig someone has here on the board with a quote that goes along the lines of: "A superior pilot uses superior judgement to avoid situations where he has to use his superior skill" I agree with that. I think it is a better test of your SA to avoid getting tangled up in a furball. I think it takes more SA to always keep an escape route open and to enter and leave the furball when you desire, not wade in and dodge bullets until the 15 guys on your six nail you. That just means you were lacking the judgement to keep you alive.
Okay, back on topic: As far as perks go, leave the unperked planes alone. Reduce the price of the Ta152 a little until more people use it then all is good. I personally like flying the late war rides (with the odd spin in an early war one). I think most peoplelike flying the plane they are most successful in, in most cases that is a late war ride...
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Originally posted by Blue Mako:
Okay, back on topic: As far as perks go, leave the unperked planes alone. Reduce the price of the Ta152 a little until more people use it then all is good. I personally like flying the late war rides (with the odd spin in an early war one). I think most peoplelike flying the plane they are most successful in, in most cases that is a late war ride...
Yup, it was not like I was asking for the Spit 14 or the other perk rides to be lowered. I personally fly all the FW's, well my top kills are in a A8 which if you want to call an uber ride go ahead but it is a fun plane and not a late war monster 450 mph plane.
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IMO the Ta152 rules the skies above 30k...
just ask the (can't remember the squad right now) what the Assassins did to thier purdy buffs and 'scorts :)
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My point sachs was, the TA 1 vs 1 with equally skilled pilots against any of the planes I previously mentioned will have a hard time staying alive at normal AH combat altitudes. Unperked it will more then likely not be flown by many people anyway. Considering the aforementioned planes are not themselves perked, then why perk a imo "inferior aircraft".
oh yes, the TA is great above 30k sure, but considering that its opponents will be B17's mostly, its still gonna have a hard time getting kills and getting home in one peice given the incredible performance and manueverability of the B17 over 30k
:p
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
152 has as many kills as the 202 you say?
Solution isn't to lower the 152's price- the solution is to place a higher price on all currently perked aircraft and perked all the late '43/early '44 onward aircraft.
This will make people fly the 202 and get kills more representative of the work it did in WWII.
-SW
I agree with you whole-heartedly. The problem is we need some early war aircraft before we can perk the mid and late war aircraft. I think we only have maybe 5 or 6 planes that were introduced before 1943. The 109F4 and G2, the SpitV and IX (I guess.. it used to be considered a 1944 plane, now it is a 1942 plane), the Hurricane IIC and D (?), the C202 .. and thats it I think. Oh, the JU88. So 8 pre-1943 planes out of 60 or so. Plus I think probably 8 of the top 10 planes are late 1944-1945 planes, without any early war alternatives. Perking the late war planes would probably never happen in the MA, maybe they'll start a RPS arena or something.
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you know, lazs is right. If you actually enjoy furballing, early war WWII stuff is pretty good. Even better is WWI or Korean War stuff -- I mean those had the lethality at engagement ranges such that a simple snapshot wasn't enough.
Now, on the 152 issue: I won't comment on its quality as a plane in AH since I've only heard second-hand reports from wannabe LW pilots who think it's overrated, and from LW pilots who think it a formidable plane at altitude. Yet in spite of the modelling issues (like the one-ping radiator), it has close to a 3-1 K/D ratio.
It may be not that great of a plane, but the fact is it was, like the Ar234, pretty damn rare. Zygote's list is pretty good, except that planes like the Spit IX don't exactly belong with a bunch of 1945 A/C.
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Originally posted by Blue Mako:
Okay, going off topic here but: How do you figure that furballs are the "only realistic, manly and SA taxing combat in the game"?
How many battles do you know of in WW2 (or any war for that matter) where both sides just kept throwing planes into a big furball for hours on end, pilots upping from fields 5 miles from the fight and flying straight into combat without gaining alt etc? IMO furballing is a result of the no-consquences-to-death game environment. If it were RL, I doubt any pilots would be so eager to entering furballs as they are here, with no teamwork and no heed to personal safety.
Also, furballing is the only way to measure how macho you are? :rolleyes: It's a game for goodness sake, how does a computer game measure how macho you are????
Well said Blue,
I for one don't really care about the Ta152 cause I've never actually needed to up one. As previously posted it doesn't have a clear advantage over other types to reward the perkie cost.
I do however think the Ar234 perk cost should be significantly reduced to reflect it's overall usefullness in the 1.08 enviroment. I disagree with the 262 being a major counter to the Blitz, unless you run into a patrolling con at alt. A well executed attack even at alts of 10-15k can gain the Blitz some immunity from cons.
Tronsky
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Also, furballing is the only way to measure how macho you are? It's a game for goodness sake, how does a computer game measure how macho you are???? Besides, wading in like Rambo and spinning around in tight circles until you die doesn't strike me as a sign of how manly anyone is, just makes me think they should be playing Quake instead.
And finally, as far as testing your SA is concerned, there is a sig someone has here on the board with a quote that goes along the lines of: "A superior pilot uses superior judgement to avoid situations where he has to use his superior skill" I agree with that. I think it is a better test of your SA to avoid getting tangled up in a furball. I think it takes more SA to always keep an escape route open and to enter and leave the furball when you desire, not wade in and dodge bullets until the 15 guys on your six nail you. That just means you were lacking the judgement to keep you alive.
Right on Mako, :)
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mako... the actual melee or 'furball' is the only realistic combat I have seen in any flight sim. While you are in it. Certainly...it is more realistic than lone wolf B&Z against low alt fighters LOL. No... the melee time frame is compressed... It is being "fed" but, that is a function of the time compression that is inherent in combat flight sims. I don't think you would like to fly for weeks and then find one 5 minute furball. And yes... it is the only manly way to fly. the sissy little girl kick and run from outside the fight is effeminate.
Of course... I belive that there should be a place that the "timid" can fly... just not with the rest of us. I don't care how good they are at it or how poor they are at dogfighting... they need to fight others of their ilk in a late war "area" of the arena.
Oh... This is a game and in a war where your life was at stake it would be best to be prudent and to take every advantage but... even in a war... if everyone else was down there mixing it up and you had the latest uber ride and were doing very little to help except saving your hide.... Watching fellow pilots die..you might soon get labled a coward.
lazs
[ 11-14-2001: Message edited by: lazs1 ]
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Originally posted by lazs1:
the sissy little girl kick and run from outside the fight is effeminate.
I think the word you are looking for is "smart", not "effeminate". :rolleyes:
Of course... I belive that there should be a place that the "timid" can fly... just not with the rest of us. I don't care how good they are at it or how poor they are at dogfighting... they need to fight others of their ilk in a late war "area" of the arena.
I think the basis of this comment is that you don't like the fact that people who have carefully conserved there fuel/ammo/E-state or whatever can come by and pick you off because you have been mixing it up with no thought to getting back to your base alive. When that happens, you prefer to blame it on their supposed "cowardice" rather than your own lack of forethought.
if everyone else was down there mixing it up and you had the latest uber ride and were doing very little to help except saving your hide.... Watching fellow pilots die..you might soon get labled a coward.
And if everybody just rushed into a hopeless situation just to save some idiot who has not had enough judgement to choose a winnable fight then you would soon be labeled an idiot... but not for long because they would soon be dead.
Seriously though, I fly to try and land my kills. I don't run from a fight, nor do my squadmates. We also don't hang around the edge of furballs, waiting for helpless victims. We get in there and mix it up, we also choose when to bug out, as opposed to staying in a furball until we are dead... Keeping your aircraft in a state to be able to do so is much more difficult than just chasing tails in a never ending, never get anywhere furball.
We do try to choose our fights, to give ourselves the greatest advantage. Anyone who does any differently isn't macho, smart or a better player, they're just stupid.
Who wants a fair fight? The loser, that's who.
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Originally posted by lazs1:
the sissy little girl kick and run from outside the fight is effeminate.
"I think the word you are looking for is "smart", not "effeminate". <http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/rolleyes.gif>
Well...Yeah, i guess we would all admit that women fight "smart" compared to men but.... I've never liked fighting women allthat much.
quote: Of course... I belive that there should be a place that the "timid" can fly... just not with the rest of us. I don't care how good they are at it or how poor they are at dogfighting... they need to fight others of their ilk in a late war "area" of the arena.
"I think the basis of this comment is that you don't like the fact that people who have carefully conserved there fuel/ammo/E-state or whatever can come by and pick you off because you have been mixing it up with no thought to getting back to your base alive. When that happens, you prefer to blame it on their supposed "cowardice" rather than your own lack of forethought."
No... I think what you don't understand is that conseving "e" is not simply the pervue of B&Z... All players try to attain a higher e state. I personally don't have much trouble avoiding the timid girly men but they are annoying. Which brings us full circle eh? If you fly a plane that starts out with a huge "bank" of e... One that is impossible to get into trouble with against slower planes.... you are well... "timid" That's fine but... U need to have your own "area" of the arena filled with like minded sissies so that you can while away the hours hiding from each other. To ask for a plane as fast as the 152to be even more comon against the likes of Hellcats is pretty lame. I would like to seel la7, P51's and d9's 152's all, in a seperate "area". You could still fly em just not against lesser planes unless it was the lesser planes choice... not yours.
will skip this quote for lack of content and go on to the next .
"Seriously though, I fly to try and land my kills. I don't run from a fight, nor do my squadmates. We also don't hang around the edge of furballs, waiting for helpless victims. We get in there and mix it up, we also choose when to bug out, as opposed to staying in a furball until we are dead... Keeping your aircraft in a state to be able to do so is much more difficult than just chasing tails in a never ending, never get anywhere furball.
We do try to choose our fights, to give ourselves the greatest advantage. Anyone who does any differently isn't macho, smart or a better player, they're just stupid."
Actually... we don't fly all that differently. I try to pick a fight with at least a good chance of survival but... I like one that strains my SA.. one with a lot of things going on and that means.... I got to get into the thick of a melee. I die a lot but I have fun and if I wanted organizaton, planning and hard work... I woulda worked overtime and made some money.
"Who wants a fair fight? The loser, that's who.
null"
Perhaps... but. I think that a close fight, hard won is allways preferable to sneaking up and killing someone who doesn't even know your there. sure... it's fun to watch toejam blow up but it's not much of a victory. I love flying a plane like the hog into a furball and coming out against spits lags and niks. I do Ok against those planes.... I wouldn't if i didn't have so much practice. I don't mind if my SA finally gets ovewhelmed and some newbie blasts my out of e hog out of the sky... I bet he get's something out of it... more than being B&Zed to death by an untouchable and cowardly uber ride.
lazs