Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: texace on November 10, 2002, 12:51:03 AM
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This is something I've seen an increase of in the past few years. Every day I see someone walking around with a T-shirt or a keychain or something telling the rest of the world that they believe in God and that they will be "saved".
What gets me is the complete audacity of some of the people I meet wearing them. I once commented on one and I got a 20 minute preaching of why God is our savior and that those who don't read their Bible every day will go to Hell. (Which I didn't belive, I'm an atheist)
What exactly is the purpose of these shirts? Most if not all of them a Christian things. Remember the WWJD things a while ago? I've always wondered what these people are trying to do by wearing the shirts...
Oh well...more ramblings from the bored teen...
Semp out...
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No harm in wearing a shirt depicting something you like. If somebody likes Jebus, why not wear a t-shirt with him on it? The key is, don't ask them about it and hopefully they won't tell you about it. If they offer up "the word" unsolicited and tell you you're going to hell because you don't pray to their imaginary friend in the sky every day, walk away or antagonize them. My favorite is to analyze why this imaginary friend needs so much praise or he'll damn ya...I like to offer up that he must be low on self esteem (hence the need for all of the positive re-enforcement) and should probably seek therapy.
SOB
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Wearing a T-shirt doesn't make one a Christian. If they told you, you were going to Hell because you didn't read the Bible every day, then they were wrong.
You are young and haven't lived long enough to call yourself an Athiest. Please don't judge these well-intentioned folks with the T's too harshly. They are doing what they feel they must do. And that's spread the news about God.
Be wary of churches that add to or detract from the Bible in their messages, or that present any message other than Jesus Christ was and is the Son of God, sent here to die on the cross to take away our sins. And who was resurrected and ascended into Heaven. Christians believe in only one God through Jesus.
I'm 45 years old, but I remember when I was about your age, I had a friend who was my best friend. I was concerned about his soul and wanted to be sure he didn't go to hell. And I can tell you, we weren't no angels. We smoked, drank whiskey and smoked pot together. The one thing he did that I didn't do was take LSD. I was so serious I was crying when I talked to him about it. It took guts, but I really meant it, because I was truly concerned for him. I think he respected me for it, and may have changed his life because of it.
I was 16 at the time.
Les:cool:
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this one was trying to save my soul but the deal she was offering was pretty bad.
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/prov/images/Provinssi%202002%20079.jpg)
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If you found a way to achieve eternal life, wouldn't you want to share it with others?
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Leslie - I'm older than you, and a life-long atheist and the son of a Methodist Preacher. I say let 'em wear what they want. Just don't make me wear it.
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You should see Salem, MA, on Halloween.
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Well Beet1e, at least we have something in common, I'm Methodist too.:D
Les
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hehe
<< NOT methodist any more.
It's a delicate issue. My father is no longer living, but my mother is. We have to avoid the subject of religion. I might ask her if she enjoyed the Sunday morning service at her local Methodist Church, but that is all.
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Beet1e.
Les
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Texace, the surest way to avoid getting a lecture is to simply not bring it up. Remember, their evangelical goal is to sell you on their worldview, so think of their shirts as being like Tommy Hilfiger or Nike clothing - just brand advertisement. No big deal - they can and should do it if they want to, and so can you, although wearing clothing with an atheistic message may only end up attracting those people who bother you in the first place. :)
In the case of unsolicited evangelism, I would suggest simply politely declining and then walking away or changing the subject. Most of these people might mean well, but many can get downright arrogant and patronizing, and this is annoying, yet amusing, considering the nature of religious faith. Attempting to put these people in their place via debate just breeds more hostility and you're not going to change any minds that way, as I've observed conversion (deconversion?) to atheism is a very personal thing that requires much deep thought.
If you're serious about your atheism, I'd suggest reading good books about the subject (Smith, Martin, Nielsen, Flew, Drange, etc.) to achieve a better understanding. Also, just be glad that in America we still have that pesky Bill of Rights which prevents these people from forcing you to believe as they do, or else.
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Texace, you certainly are old enough to decide for yourself if you are an atheist or not. No one can tell you what is in your head or what you believe.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Texace, you certainly are old enough to decide for yourself if you are an atheist or not. No one can tell you what is in your head or what you believe.
I'm sure Texace has chosen his college major already. Of course Thrawn, he is mature and knowledgable enough to chose whether or not to be an athiest.
Les
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Originally posted by SOB
No harm in wearing a shirt depicting something you like. SOB
Hmmm, but in todays world if I were to wear something I like (a nude picture of Petra Verkaik for instance :D ) on a T-shirt, people would get on my case about it and demand I stop wearing it in public.. but something thats offensive(or not relevant) to non christians and atheists on a t-shirt is okay. ...go figure:confused:
BTW: a post here + religion?!! eeeeeeeeeeek! run, run while you still can!:p
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If this is the texace im thinking of, he is old enough to be my dad by more than a few years.
Besides, i didn't know you had to be "x" age before you can make such a decision.
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Many times they are insecure about themselves and their fate, so they wear these shirts to advertize their fate. Avoid them like the pleague, act like they dont exist. And it seems you yourself are insecure about your belief (and atheism IS a belief) so you are bothered by these shirts because you feel threatned that they are trying to somehow force you into sharing their faith.
I dont see how these shirts are worse than GAP and A/X shirts ;)
I used to be a die-hard atheist at your age, now I'm really agnostic. There is a big diference between the two.
I strongly believe that true spiritual people only need to wear a smile to show it.
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Originally posted by marauder
Hmmm, but in todays world if I were to wear something I like (a nude picture of Petra Verkaik for instance :D ) on a T-shirt, people would get on my case about it and demand I stop wearing it in public.. but something thats offensive(or not relevant) to non christians and atheists on a t-shirt is okay. ...go figure:confused:
BTW: a post here + religion?!! eeeeeeeeeeek! run, run while you still can!:p
YOU are confused? I'm confused how you can equate wearing a t-shirt featuring a nude model or a profanity as the same as wearing a t-shirt that says "Jesus Saves." Well, actually I'm not that confused because religion has been under attack in America for years now, so I guess it figures Jesus could be considered obsene by some people in "today's world."
Another thing that confuses me is why some athiests would comment and initiate a religious debate with a stranger wearing a Jesus Saves T-Shirt. I wonder if Texace would debate someone wearing a t-shirt of a sports team he didn't like? Texace obviously isn't as secure in his athiesm as he might think he is or there would be no need to confront someone wearing a Christian themed T-Shirt.
It's one thing for nonbelievers to be nonbelievers, but it goes over the top when believers are confronted about thier beliefs and ridiculed- and insert Moslem, Christian, Hindu or whatever religion you want here. And to feel you have the right to wear a t-shirt that is truly offensive, graphic or obscene because someone is wearing a Jesus Saves t-shirt is just plain stupid. Find a real issue to get offended about.
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Just wondering what comment an admitted atheist would have on a "Jesus Saves" shirt. Wouldn't have anything to do with the receiving the sermon, would it?
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Kieran, should I scan my Million Man March t-shirt and post it? Now THAT one is a real conversation starter:)
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Not really from me. I see all kinds of shirts. The ones I don't agree with, I ignore. I'm just wondering what comment resulted in a 20-minute sermon. As they say, there's another side to this story.
I suppose it is possible someone just out of the blue started talking religion- it certainly does happen- but the way Tex outlined this story it seemed more likely he did something to provoke the person. Did he know the person? Was the comment sarcastic? I just can't understand how someone who doesn't want to hear the word would invite discussion by inquiring innocently about a shirt, I guess.
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what's the big deal about a tee-shirt?
i've yet to even see one here in babylon- i guess it's the same attraction people get from having bumper-stickers (an attraction i don't understand btw) but it's just a conversation piece. i probably see more 'che guevare' tee shirts but i don't bother asking them if they're starting a revolution.
anyone from the eighties remember those awful george michael, wham, 'choose life!' shirts all the girls (and some guys i might add) were wearing? arrrggg it'd probably have the same effect on me.
i remember wearing 'sex-pistols' and 'the clash' tee shirts in highschool to try to assert my identity and set myself aside from the bee-bop herd i grew up around and as a general anti-statement, but these days i could care less what my clothes say -
i mean really, it's a little silly when you think about it.
i think it's about maturity - once you are sure of your identity you don't need to wear things to try to prompt a discussion on it.
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I'd agree with that, Mr. Fish.
In fact, when I think about it, the most likely people to wear such T-Shirts would be young Christians or people who work with young Christians. It certainly would be considered an identity builder.
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Originally posted by Animal
Many times they are insecure about themselves and their fate, so they wear these shirts to advertize their fate. Avoid them like the pleague, act like they dont exist. And it seems you yourself are insecure about your belief (and atheism IS a belief) so you are bothered by these shirts because you feel threatned that they are trying to somehow force you into sharing their faith.
I dont see how these shirts are worse than GAP and A/X shirts ;)
I used to be a die-hard atheist at your age, now I'm really agnostic. There is a big diference between the two.
I strongly believe that true spiritual people only need to wear a smile to show it.
Animal we could be brothers.
A handful of my friends have gone that route and they also tried getting me into the cult as well. The general hypocrisy coming out of their mouths is so strong it I often find myself gagging.
I don't hang out with them as much as I used to. A few years ago a good friend of mine in particular was extremely insecure of himself and eventually became quite depressed. I couldn't relate, I've never been in that position and he never said anything about it (to me, anyway. I think he viewed our friendship as a competition actually) He found others like him at his place of worship (an Assembly of God), they banded together, joined the "cult" and haven't been the same ever since. They completely block out everything 'negative' in their eyes without even thinking about confronting them. They are THAT insecure that they hold on to their book and, as SOB said, their imaginary being in the sky, with dear life..
Texace, listen to Master Animal, he knows what he speaks :) Agnostic is the perfect word to describe myself. Not absolutely closed to the existance of a supreme being... but I certainly can live my life without one.
ag·nos·tic n.
1. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
2. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
3. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.
I've been a Lutheran for all my life until recently. My FRIENDS who joined the cult actually turned me off. One of them got out just before he was sucked in. We often find ourselves talking about it... the contradictions, the hypocrisy, and how they could have turned out if they hadn't been 'reborn.'
oct out.
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Marauder, rest assured that I would never harass you for wearing a t-shirt with a nude Petra Verkaik on it. Unless you consider me following you around and staring at your t-shirt with a strange grin on my face harassing. :D
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http://procinwarn.com
http://www.thebereancall.org/
pretty good sites for anyone wanting to do some reading themselves.
after you're done I recommend reading the bible yourself see if what is said is true. That goes for anyone already attending a church, crack open your bible see if what was said is true, see if what was said is even in it!
God gave us everything including a measure of faith and a will to make a decision.
Last time Jesus came into this world it was as our saviour, next time He's coming he's here to judge and His decision will be final. no such thing as overtime and there will be no appeals.
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Spare a thought for me, an Irish atheist (you did'nt think there was such a thing).For the past 17 years my parents have made me go to church, but i've seen the light. I realized that the whole god thing was a tad far fetched. Listening to some child abuser telling you how to live your life, screw that .Now i just refuse to go and shout insults.
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Originally posted by Animal
I strongly believe that true spiritual people only need to wear a smile to show it.
Whoa Animal...well frigging said man!
I agree and strongly believe that the irony in advertising one's "piety" is that it basically boils down to pride and vanity. Two sins that have been labellled as those of the seven deadly variety.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by loser
If this is the texace im thinking of, he is old enough to be my dad by more than a few years.
Besides, i didn't know you had to be "x" age before you can make such a decision.
If that is the case Loser, then I am a fool. I did enjoy Marauder's post though. At least some good came from this discussion.:D
Les
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Jesus saves .....
.... and Manchester United still leads 1:0 !!!
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it's a shame to see the pro-religious side so under-represented since there are a drove of believers out there! i think if your religion is going to survive you should be out there making some strong points. it would probably focus your cause and bring out the smartest people - many of us only seem to get the duds.
nevertheless i love this topic ;) - people looked out into the sky and got scared back when that tribe in israel wrote this hooey -
it's just their old school laws with an unprovable unassailable authority added for artificial legitmacy- i don't have that fear of the void because it isn't any void we were just new -i just see a big system of particles and forces which is way more awe-inspiring than some god who lives 'in' space...
if i called the universe itself and everything in it a 'god', who'd ever be able to say it wasn't. what's the god criterion again?
it makes a lot more sense anyway, i can see it and prove it and it isn't encouraging me or chiding me. newton knew the truth about it but so did einstein even though they had different approaches- it just gets more complex not necessarily wrong, it's more natural and perfect and elegant than the father god i say.
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it's a shame to see the pro-religious side so under-represented since there are a drove of believers out there! i think if your religion is going to survive you should be out there making some strong points. it would probably focus your cause and bring out the smartest people - many of us only seem to get the duds.
Not me. Not this time. We've been down the path before, it'd just be repeating history. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind discussing this at all, but I can't tell anymore whether people really want a discussion, or whether they are waiting for a mole to pop up. I am not doing religion any service to merely stand here and be abused for the entertainment of the board. In the end, I believe you have to pick your moments.
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mr.fish, what do you expect me to say? I am a Christian because I believe Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. I'm not always the best of Christians, but nonetheless my faith is my faith- I believe in God and I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Other than that there's nothing I can to say to convince you otherwise because faith comes from the heart, not from a scientific hypophises from Newton or Einstein.
I'm just curious why non-believers are "bugged" by Christians and why self proclaimed Athiests are so willing and eager to debate the existance of God? Really, you can't convince me of the impossibility of God so you must be trying to convince yourself. I'm not "bugged" by athiests at all- if you wear a shirt saying "There Is No God" then whatever, rock on. I am convinced there IS a God. It's a faith thing.
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If Jesus is the son of God, how can he also be the son of Joseph? If he really IS the son of God, then that must make God the original sperm donor. So now we know why he has that white beard that hangs down to his lap. When he thinks no-one's looking, he's having a five-knuckle shuffle behind that beard.
-The Irish comedian, Dave Allen - c1990 at one of the London theatres.
Airhead! I'm just curious why non-believers are "bugged" by Christians and why self proclaimed Athiests are so willing and eager to debate the existance of God? Really, you can't convince me of the impossibility of God so you must be trying to convince yourself. I'm not "bugged" by athiests at all- if you wear a shirt saying "There Is No God" then whatever, rock on. I am convinced there IS a God. It's a faith thing.
It's not really an issue with me. My mind was made up by age 16. The hard part was telling my preacher father. I got my best friend to do it, coward that I am. There IS a period, following one's decision to become free from religion, that one feels angry at having been led up the garden path in the first place. Just as a firm believer feels the need to convert people, so a newly confirmed atheist sometimes find the need to confront Christians. He feels that he was once conned, and he perceives your actions as tantamount to conning others the way he was once conned. It passes.
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hehe you're right fishy, where is everyone?
This may be your favorite topic to discuss, but if anyone or a group of individuals on this board DID present some information to debate, they would be shot down. Christianity has no factual base to proving the existence of a god... it all comes down to faith, and well, I haven't seen any scientific research concerning 'faith.'
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Well, Oct, there is exactly why these debates don't work in this environment... you are expecting people to come into your playground, play by your rules, and explain and sell something outside your rules. Is it any surprise what happens?
Look what happened to Joedirt when he announced he would try to live more like a Christian. Many of you (royal you) big, secure atheists beat up on him about it. Totally unnecessary, and indicative of the prevalent attitude of many on this board. Never mind he is 15, pile on.
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Originally posted by Airhead
I'm just curious why non-believers are "bugged" by Christians
Because the atheists don't go door to door asking you what you believe.
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Originally posted by K98k
Last time Jesus came into this world it was as our saviour, next time He's coming he's here to judge and His decision will be final. no such thing as overtime and there will be no appeals.
How very southern baptist of you to point it out for us... thanks for the fire and brimstone...
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Originally posted by funkedup
If you found a way to achieve eternal life, wouldn't you want to share it with others?
Maybe a select few.
Petra Verkaik is definitely on the list. :D
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Originally posted by Kieran
Well, Oct, there is exactly why these debates don't work in this environment... you are expecting people to come into your playground, play by your rules, and explain and sell something outside your rules. Is it any surprise what happens?
Look what happened to Joedirt when he announced he would try to live more like a Christian. Many of you (royal you) big, secure atheists beat up on him about it. Totally unnecessary, and indicative of the prevalent attitude of many on this board. Never mind he is 15, pile on.
I already see that Kieran. I know it would be very lopsided debate, sorry for not including that in my last post.
When did he announce that? I do not remember bashing anyone (even Joedirt). I remember commenting on his room, but thats all.
And for the record, I am not an athiest and do not claim to be one.
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Oops, my bad. Sorry for the misread.
Joedirt commented he'd dumped his harddrive because he felt it was wrong to have the illegal songs on the disk. Few of the guys went off a bit and attacked his faith- 'course, he'd better get used to that. I just thought it a little sad is all.
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Originally posted by Kieran
Oops, my bad. Sorry for the misread.
Joedirt commented he'd dumped his harddrive because he felt it was wrong to have the illegal songs on the disk. Few of the guys went off a bit and attacked his faith- 'course, he'd better get used to that. I just thought it a little sad is all.
He dumped his MP3's? Missed that one... saw the post about dumping all of his porn tho.
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That's right, he'd mentioned dumping the porn, too.
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Ah, thats right, I read that thread but never contributed.
Hehe, well if he feels it will help him out, then more power to him. :)
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In the rough words of George Carlin..
'Though shalt not kill, unless they pray to a different invisible man in the sky.'
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Actually, the comment I made on the shirt was "Nice shirt" in a thoughtful and serious answer. It had a pic of a hand with a nail through it with the words "Body piercing saved my life!" emblazoned on it. The first sentence I got from this person (a woman no more than 25 or so) was "Yes it is, and why aren't you wearing one?" I replied rather foolishly "Because I don't feel the need to announce my religion to the world..." She got a little red and began her little sermon, which I walked away from with a curt "I'm not intrerested...I need to get back to work"
I chose my "religion" for my own beliefs. I do not consider myself too young or too dense to make my own decision about religious beliefs. Unlike others, I do not wish to impose my beliefs on anyone, nor do I expect anyone to return the favor. I simply want to live my life and be happy. While that may sound "non-athiest" in the minds of some...it's the way I feel. I do not like nor have I ever liked people trying to tell me who I must worship to be "saved".
My family is totally cool with it, and do not give me hell for it. I simply made the comment on the shirt because I was amused by some of the designs I saw. "Jesus loves you!" or "Fish don't walk and Jesus lives!" are two to name a hundred.
:)
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"Why aren't you wearing one?"
Man, good move by walking away. I probably would have lost it and thrown every gripe I have at her concerning her ways. Her comment right there is an insult to me.
I absolutely hate someone forcing their beliefs/religion on me. If they want to gain followers, they can simply present their information like a display in a shop window. They remind me of annoying salesmen when they do that sort of thing.
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Texace, you asked about the purpose of the shirts, and I answered. I hope the answer was satisfactory.
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Forget religious T-shirts!
What would jesus do? panties (http://www.cafeshops.com/cp/prod.aspx?p=landover.3682427)
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"Because I don't feel the need to announce my religion to the world..."
Ah! There it is... a backhanded slap at her faith. But you knew that, right? Anyway... yup, she should have played it cool and just thanked you for the compliment. She didn't. Sorry for that.
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The reason WHY so many have lost faith is pretty darn simple. CHristanity as it is now is mired in medival concepts. Why cant one see a possiable relationship between science and religion?
Perhaps in the long run we'll find out that they were really the same thing?
xBAT
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Ah! There it is... a backhanded slap at her faith. But you knew that, right? Anyway... yup, she should have played it cool and just thanked you for the compliment. She didn't. Sorry for that.
BS. It was not an attack on her faith - it was a comment about the nature in which she advertised it. And considering she questioned the guy for not wearing one in the first place, she deserved it.
Sorry you're so sensitive about it. Keep your beliefs to yourself and amongst those like you, and I'm sure no-one will get hurt.
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Originally posted by funkedup
If you found a way to achieve eternal life, wouldn't you want to share it with others?
Why would I want to walk around with the same people, day after day, forever? Its all I can do to tolerate my coworkers for 10 hours a day 5 days a week, and at least I know that someday I'll reach the magic number in age or years of service and be able to get the hell out!
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There is only one god and Muhammad is his prophet .
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Sorry you're so sensitive about it. Keep your beliefs to yourself and amongst those like you, and I'm sure no-one will get hurt.
Oooh, nice implied threat, and from a Brit, no less. The irony.
Not sensitive, I said the woman was wrong, but tex wasn't exactly innocent, either, as he suggested.
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Oooh, nice implied threat, and from a Brit, no less. The irony.
I was threatening you? I think you just stamped Q.E.D. over my statement about you being over-sensitive. I was talking about feelings.
Kindly explain this 'irony' to me. Please remember today's date is November 11th, so if you are about to accuse the British of cowardice or lack of fighting spirit or plain old 'guts', please also remember the one and a half million dead British soldiers in WW1, the half a million or so dead in WW2.
FFS, the Yanks reckon they've got the market cornered when it comes to sacrifice, bravery and all that bollocks.:rolleyes:
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The reason few christians get involved in threads like these is that they are usually put in a no-win situation. Pointing out the insecurity and weakness of most atheists probably isn't going to convert anyone. And you are percieved as being on the same side as anyone who "claims" they are a christian, which is not a good thing either.
Originally posted by Samm
There is only one god and Muhammad is his prophet .
The koran has a lot of bible in it. Did you know that?
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Pointing out the insecurity and weakness of most atheists probably isn't going to convert anyone.
Pointing out the insecurity and weakness of most Christians isn't going to 'convert' anyone either, so I rarely bother.
I personally don't need a crutch to get out of bed in the morning and like my life and most things in it. Wish I had a better car though, but everyone says that. ;)
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Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
Pointing out the insecurity and weakness of most Christians isn't going to 'convert' anyone either, so I rarely bother.
I agree, on the whole, a good portion of those who call themselves "christian" are somewhat insecure and weak.
Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
I personally don't need a crutch to get out of bed in the morning and like my life and most things in it. Wish I had a better car though, but everyone says that. ;)
I am also fortunate to be in good health and do not have any use for crutches. My wifes car is ok, but I drive a beater.
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Heh, Hblair. Heard that comeback to that comment of mine, plenty of times. ;) I had lots of Christian friends at uni, and they repeatedly tried to convert me by persuading me to abandon my sinful lifestyle. They never succeeded, but we are still friends.
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I wish to suggest that an atheist who is charitable and does good things is a better person then a Christian (or other religious type) who does the same thing. The reason, unlike a religious person, an atheist expects no reward for their actions. They just do it because they think it's the right thing, not because there are consequences to being bad.
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Dowding-
Tongue-in-cheek response to you, sorry the humor was over your head.
"Nobody gets hurt" could jokingly be construed as a threat of violence, but, coming from such a progressive, firearm-hating, "save people from themselves" country as Britain it is without question comical. Admittedly as the butt of the joke I don't doubt you had trouble seeing the humor.
I guess it was ok, it did allow you to vent a bit more of your anti-American spleen. ;)
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my favorite religious t shirt is the one I am wearing now. It says "give me that old time religion" over a depiction of stonehenge.
Having said that... I wear a tshirt with "modified Healey club" on it and woe unto those who would ask about it! 20 minutes is nothing. I won't give up till they promise to find a basket case healey and stuff a big honking V8 into it.
I don't go door to door tho. My reaction to door to door religion panderers varies. Amusement is the most common but anger is possible. I have considered violence when the extremely rude person continues to invade my privacy from my own front porch after repeatedly being told that I am not interested an would like said person to go away.
I don't think you should be able to shoot em but pistol whipping is not too over the top ya think?
lazs
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"pistol whipping is not too over the top ya think?"
Actually, that might just encourage some of them.
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hehehe lazs,
i had a jehova withness fellow all dressed up in a suit show up at my door at 10 am sunday few weeks back.
I wasn't wearing anything but underwear at that point ( was changing ) and decided that would get him nice and away quick :)
Sure worked... opened the door, in my full overweight glory :) Gave few not so subtle hints that myself and the wife are getting it on ... he gave me some magazines and was off before i even started laughing :) It was hilarious :)
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Originally posted by fd ski
hehehe lazs,
i had a jehova withness fellow all dressed up in a suit show up at my door at 10 am sunday few weeks back.
I wasn't wearing anything but underwear at that point ( was changing ) and decided that would get him nice and away quick :)
Sure worked... opened the door, in my full overweight glory :) Gave few not so subtle hints that myself and the wife are getting it on ... he gave me some magazines and was off before i even started laughing :) It was hilarious :)
That is hilarious! I'll have to pass that one along tonight at dinner.
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yep pop.... I guess I never did understand that "hair shirt" and self flaggulation thing.
lazs
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Originally posted by Chairboy
I wish to suggest that an atheist who is charitable and does good things is a better person then a Christian (or other religious type) who does the same thing. The reason, unlike a religious person, an atheist expects no reward for their actions. They just do it because they think it's the right thing, not because there are consequences to being bad.
Are you kidding me? Do you really think one is a Christian out of fear, insecurity and weakness? If not for religion we'd all be axe murders or something? It might just surprise you to know that I am a Christian by choice- nobody twists my arm. What I'm surprised about is the anti-Christian bias in this thread. Hey, I don't CARE if you believe or not- it's your choice, do what you want- I do. Just don't over analyze me and look for a selfish reason some are Christians. Really, I'm NOT weak, incecure, or fearful. I believe because it's what is in my heart and I CHOOSE to believe.
Oh, I do agree one can be moral and a non-believer, and I also agree some Christians can get over the top with thier evangalism- but if anyone thinks I'm Christian because I'm forced to be, or afraid not to be, or to feel better about myself, then you don't know what Christianity really is.
Kieran, I made my last post before I saw yours, and I'll follow your advice and back out of this thread. I don't mind being called names for trolling or whatever, but I don't need to listen to any more name calling because I believe in Christ. Oh, and Chairboy? I don't think I'm better than you or anybody else. I think God loves all of us, and as He accepts all of us as His children the Christian thing to do is accept all of you as my brothers, regardless of what you believe. Peace out.
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Originally posted by fd ski
hehehe lazs,
i had a jehova withness fellow all dressed up in a suit show up at my door at 10 am sunday few weeks back.
I wasn't wearing anything but underwear at that point ( was changing ) and decided that would get him nice and away quick :)
Sure worked... opened the door, in my full overweight glory :) Gave few not so subtle hints that myself and the wife are getting it on ... he gave me some magazines and was off before i even started laughing :) It was hilarious :)
That's a pretty good one fd ski.:)
The Jehova's Witnesses had been in my neighborhood recently. And I did listen to one of them once, we talked, I told him I had attended a Christian school and was aware of the message he was telling people, so he didn't stay long. This guy was "professional" about it, and didn't waste his time or mine.
However, I had an aunt who became a JW, and she didn't know when to stop. It got so bad, she alienated all family members she had contact with. They practically ran when they saw her coming.
One day I was out working on something in my yard and a fellow wearing a suit came walking up from down the street. Well, I went to see what he wanted, and about the time I got there, he had casually allowed his suit coat to open just enough to reveal his badge and detective special along side on his belt. He says, "Hi, I'm Lt. Mike and I'm asking about some of your neighbors living down the street."
So we talk for a few minutes, shake hands, and I mention to him he had me a bit nervous when he first came up, and how relieved I was that he was the Police and not a Jehova's witness.
Les
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so the new christian debate tactic is the old "climb up on the cross and be an abused martyr" routine eh? awwww -
you should realize that your missionary conquests are a two-way street and quit being so thin skinned. don't you think you'll get resistance from your attempted conquest of our metaphysical holdings?
you are the ones trying to get your rules on our school walls, you are the ones trying to get our kids praying to your god every morning, you are the ones lobbying congress, funding laws that support your positions in states other than your own, you're the ones always asking for our money, going door to door etc etc etc
what you see as an attack is a defense! at least we (agnostics etc) don't burn you at the stake like you did to us. you've got no right to complain when people fight back - many of us don't want your nonsense in this country and the harder you push the more we'll resist - period. if you see it as an attack then good. your positions are weak and flacid and should be once and for all put to rest.
you want us to swallow these wacky off-the-wall views based on fear of mystic punishment and fear of almighty god's watchful eye but you can't prove anything and that blind fear-based mysticism has no place in this world so take it elsewhere - you're no victims not by a long shot so take off that crown of thorns and make your case -
you want us to believe so bad but you can't stand the heat when someone shows how ridiculous and inconsistent your religion is - then you're the victim.
if i was a christian i'd be fanatical - pounding you all with my views til they banned me - proclaiming my joy relentlessly - if i really thought i was saving your soul the last thing i would do is tepidly back away.
you get all squishy inside when you actually question your views because you're afraid god's watching you - and because if you ever did, you know your nonsense wouldn't hold water.
i'm ready for a brave new world of personal responsibility not your old scared world.
"...Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place...."
little late ain't he? lemme guess he meant uhhhh "era" yeah or uhhhhh "historical period" - what's the nebulous catch all wafty answer for this little problem?
roadkill! it was an apocolyptic cult - one of many and he was trying to rile them up - and in the end he was just a guy who got crucified by the romans. millions of dead folks in his name later..... let's move on.
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Whew!
Man, I hope those lightning bolts don't travel on the internet.
Maybe I'll unplug my computer for a while, just to be safe.
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you want us to believe so bad but you can't stand the heat when someone shows how ridiculous and inconsistent your religion is - then you're the victim.
if i was a christian i'd be fanatical - pounding you all with my views til they banned me - proclaiming my joy relentlessly - if i really thought i was saving your soul the last thing i would do is tepidly back away.
you get all squishy inside when you actually question your views because you're afraid god's watching you - and because if you ever did, you know your nonsense wouldn't hold water.
Wrong. If you did as you say, you would run people away. You know this is true simply by reading the reactions of people here on the BBS. You can't approach people as if weilding a 2x4. It doesn't work.
Come here and convince you guys? I'm the first to admit, I am not up to the task- not for lack of trying of course, but more because I am just an inadequate spokesman. I know it is entertaining to rip on me, and I guess we can do that, but who is going to get converted? You? Not a chance. No way I can walk in here and play by your rules and win. Your ball, your court, your rules.
I will say up front I can not scientifically prove the existance of God. I will say you can not scientifically prove the non-existance of God. Mexican standoff. Neither one is going to budge an instant, so... what is going to happen now? You know as well as I do. Cheap shot after cheap shot. The crowd will take their pot shots. I have to know that I will do no good that way. I have to know better than to go down the path again.
I am not a sledgehammer for religion- it isn't my style or talent. Heck, I wouldn't even call myself an evangelist. Sure, I witness when and where possible, if I feel there is a reach from the other party. I came from a family of atheists, I know what happens if I push too hard or too soon.
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All hail the new fish god! Look, he dropped a porno mag. It's a sign, worship the new god and the porno mag prophet! Praise be to Mr. Fish!
What shall we do for you, savior Fish?!
SOB
:D
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Originally posted by Kieran
I will say up front I can not scientifically prove the existance of God. I will say you can not scientifically prove the non-existance of God. Mexican standoff.
I'm not going to get into a religious argument with you, 'cause your right, we'll get nowhere. Especially since you're wrong, and you won't admit it. :p However, since when does anyone have to prove the non-existance of anything? That's a pretty weak argument.
SOB
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Not when the thing which is to be disproven is a matter of faith.
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Originally posted by Kieran
I will say up front I can not scientifically prove the existance of God. I will say you can not scientifically prove the non-existance of God. Mexican standoff.
let's get our facts straight - i never have and never will claim that god can be disproved.
i've never understood atheists actually, because saying that god doesn't exist is as silly as saying he does, my position is that it's unknowable at the present and really doesn't matter. it's like satanists - aren't you really just saying you believe in god but want to play the bad guy??? it's senseless.
i would rather follow john the baptist than jesus anyway if i was going to follow anyone - he was out yelling and preaching and dunking people in the jordan and ranting about the end times- i don't know, i like his style - sitting back all w.a.s.py just doesn't fit the apocolyptic nature of the teachings of christ imo.
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bring me cheetos sob! golden cheetos damnit! ;)
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Eh?, that's apples and oranges. If you believe in something that can't be proven, it's faith. It's a fact if it exists. Does the boogieman exist until proven otherwise just because your kid is afraid of him when the lights go off in their room?
SOB
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huh. Let me, in my imperfect English, try to 'splain it one more time.
The more I talk, the more I push people the other way. This isn't about me and my ego, this is about me doing the right thing by my God and Savior. So, in that light, you win the debate.
Even if that means you believe I am being WASPY or can't take the heat. (hah!)
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Why, yes, the boogeyman DOES exist, except we call them "demons".
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Yes, cheetos my savior! And wet naps to cleanse thy self before the porn, so thy mighty johnson shall not be tainted orange?
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Originally posted by Kieran
Why, yes, the boogeyman DOES exist, except we call them "demons".
Shit. I knew mom was lying!
SOB
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Originally posted by SOB
Eh?, that's apples and oranges. If you believe in something that can't be proven, it's faith. It's a fact if it exists. Does the boogieman exist until proven otherwise just because your kid is afraid of him when the lights go off in their room?
SOB
There have been many "facts" over the centuries that later, under the scrutiny of enlightened reason, turned out to be less than factual. Facts are nothing more than what is popularly believed to be true. imo.
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Yeah, whatever. Next you'll have me believing the earth isn't flat!
SOB
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After this brief warmup... could we move on to the real issue: bumperstickers
I see fish with IXOTE written in them
I see fish with feet with DARWIN written in them
I see rainbows on the backs of cars
I see naked ladie silouettes with their feet kicking in the air
I see bumperstickers pronouncing how great kids are
I see bumperstickers pronouncing how tired of kids someone is
I've just never seen a bumpersticker that made a car look better.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Kieran
huh. Let me, in my imperfect English, try to 'splain it one more time.
The more I talk, the more I push people the other way. This isn't about me and my ego, this is about me doing the right thing by my God and Savior. So, in that light, you win the debate.
Even if that means you believe I am being WASPY or can't take the heat. (hah!)
so what if it pushes them away? why do christians buy houses? why do y'all have jobs and make long term investments and why are you worried about pushing someone away? if the building was on fire you'd shake them and beg them to run for their lives and jesus 'done' told you it was so why don't you get off my tv screen and get shakin!
you are supposed to believe that jesus could come back at any moment! why don't you sell everything you own take off walking - sleeping as little as possible and having faith that the lord will take care of you - just spending all your time trying like hell to save souls and spread god's word?
because it wouldn't go over well in this day and age? so what- did it go over well in jesus' day? how did they receive him and his disciples?
it might distance people? so what - that's a cop out, your actions would probably do more to convince people than your weirdo threats. all these preists have been making excuses for you all to live comfortably over the centuries but if you really believe shouldn't you be out there doing what he told you and smiling at the sky?
"There have been many "facts" over the centuries that later, under the scrutiny of enlightened reason, turned out to be less than factual"
actually iron - in this day and age our understanding gets more complex but not necessarily wrong - i could describe the motion of some thing using newtons laws but einsteins are more precise - bohr's model of the atom wasn't perfect but it was close, heisenberg understood it much better- even the greek idea of circular orbits was at least close - kepler straightened that right out and so on and so on.... it just keeps getting clearer and it may be impossible to ever know the full truth but we don't need to.
- it's all about understanding that you don't have all the answers and spending your efforts trying to make closer and closer approximations of the truth- what else ya gonna do, just read genisis and leave it at that? that's wasting our ability.
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A strange observation...
Athiests are always more likely to thrust their lack of religion on someone than a religious person is to thrust religion on you.
Basically, I know quite a few Christians and seldomely is anything really unloaded on me. I know a few athiests (or so they claim) and they never shut up about it.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
A strange observation...
Athiests are always more likely to thrust their lack of religion on someone than a religious person is to thrust religion on you.
Basically, I know quite a few Christians and seldomely is anything really unloaded on me. I know a few athiests (or so they claim) and they never shut up about it.
AKDejaVu
Funny, i never had an athiest come to my house and give me the "lack of god loves you" lecture.
What planet are you on ? :D
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Can't say I have either...
But can say I've had to spend several lunch hours listening to athiest spew the same rhetoric you've posted here. I can't say that I've had a Christian do it once. Had a Mormon try once, but he actually responded to a polite "No thanks". Athiests... they just don't respond to anything.
AKDejaVu
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Good thread, and not too antagonistic either.
I am sometimes envious of those who can have such a strong religious faith. I have a friend who revels in his Christianity, and claims that it changed his life for the better. It probably did.
I just don't have the capacity for that kind of suspension of my beliefs, for that is what it would take. Too bad really.
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tell you what kieran -
what i'd like to see is a bunch of christians out in a cornfield in iowa - living there tonight and somewhere else the next, carrying everything they own on their backs, not knowing if they'd wake up and jesus would be there to settle things out, never knowing exactly how they'd get by or where they'd sleep - moving along preaching about god, spreading the word and all out rejoicing. you know- living like the bible said to-
is there even one christian living that way today in america? i've never seen it - if there was such a movement it might be worth having faith in
no hard feelings i hope :)
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Wow, Fish, I step out for my daily run, and missed the show...
First of all, I thought you knew the Bible better than that. The Bible does not tell everyone to live hand-to-mouth. It doesn't tell everyone to be shouting from street corners. If anything it comes closer to expressing mankind as a body with all the necessary parts- meaning all will work for God, but not all in the same way.
Next, why do I care if I drive people away? Are you kidding me? That is the last thing a Christian wants to do. If I am doing a poor job of witnessing (and it would appear by my performance on this board I have) I would do God and all Christians a big favor and shut up. If God hasn't opened a door for me, my crowbar isn't going to do any good.
Finally, you only know the piece of me revealed on this BBS. I am flawed like anyone else, maybe more so. That said, you don't know how I live my life, how I teach my kids, how I deal with those that wrong me, etc. There is probably where I do my best evangelizing- not that I am even very good at that, but I have my moments.
One thing is for certain I never realized before- we don't even agree on the definition of what the Bible requires of people.
Oops, forgot- of course no hard feelings! Don't think that for a second.
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Originally posted by mrfish
what i'd like to see is a bunch of christians out in a cornfield in iowa - living there tonight and somewhere else the next, carrying everything they own on their backs, not knowing if they'd wake up and jesus would be there to settle things out, never knowing exactly how they'd get by or where they'd sleep - moving along preaching about god, spreading the word and all out rejoicing. you know- living like the bible said to-
is there even one christian living that way today in america? i've never seen it - if there was such a movement it might be worth having faith in
no hard feelings i hope :)
Isnt that kinda like those homeless people you are always complaining about? I mean they have signs that say "God Bless You", right? :D
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Originally posted by sling322
Isnt that kinda like those homeless people you are always complaining about? I mean they have signs that say "God Bless You", right? :D
the winos are homeless -> the christians are homeless-> therefore the winos must be christians
- are you looking at some weird venn diagram or something :D
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Originally posted by Airhead
I'm just curious why non-believers are "bugged" by Christians
Usually because most discussions from most Christians can translate to "I'm right, you are not, believe what I believe or go to hell to burn forever". What's funny is that this discussion has occurred between "Christians" of different denominations who worship the "same" God but in just slightly different ways.
As soon as "Christians" from different denominations stop trying to force their faith on me then I, for one, will therefore stop being "bugged".
As a Methodist I can feel empathy for agnostics and atheists. I certainly don't want a neo-militant religious person "trying to save me" so I can imagine how they feel with an unwelcome and uninvited sermon about how they are wrong and will burn forever unless they change.
It is quite funny though, to ask the zealout during his/her devout sermon, "Did you know that Jesus was Black?" I don't know if that is true as there are several arguements both pro and con about it but that usually shuts them up and puts them into a tail spin :D
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Originally posted by mrfish
the winos are homeless -> the christians are homeless-> therefore the winos must be christians
- are you looking at some weird venn diagram or something :D
Well....he did turn water into wine didnt he? I think I remember that story. ;)
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no kidding hey wait i take it back lemme in:)
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Originally posted by mrfish
tell you what kieran -
what i'd like to see is a bunch of christians out in a cornfield in iowa - living there tonight and somewhere else the next, carrying everything they own on their backs, not knowing if they'd wake up and jesus would be there to settle things out, never knowing exactly how they'd get by or where they'd sleep - moving along preaching about god, spreading the word and all out rejoicing. you know- living like the bible said to-
is there even one christian living that way today in america? i've never seen it - if there was such a movement it might be worth having faith in
no hard feelings i hope :)
No real need for Christians to spread the word in America as it has pretty much been covered, many times over. You will find some Christians doing the sort of thing you mentioned in many third world countries. Some of which (middle eastern) at peril to their very lives.
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Hey Texace if you ever wondered what thread hijacking is... NOW YOU KNOW. sheesh
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Yeah...I figured this would happen, just not to this extent. However...if this is the way the thread went...I'll voice my opinion.
Do I believe that other religios are wrong? No, I don't. Do I believe that all those who follow a religion are dumb? No, I don't. I am the kind of guy who sits back and watches the action from afar...as it should be. I, however, have noticed that the only people I've ever been irritated with over something they tell me or something they're trying to "sell" me are Christians.
Why? In my mind, the Christians (not all of em) believe that their reigion is superior, cause they have Jesus Christ as the Messiah. Some like to try and tell someone else what religion they should follow, becuase Jesus loves them. If that's the case he loves everyone, right? So these people tell me that believing in Jesus will save my soul from eternal damnation? Why must I wait to be saved? Do Christians believe that God will help them in life?
To me, the answer is no. I have always tried to look on the spiritual side of things, to see if God could help. A year ago, I gave up. Same reason my aunt did (she did cause her and her family prayed and prayed for the life of a loved one, only to have him die right in front of them)
DO I want to force my beliefs on others? No, I do not. I've always lothed people who told me what I need to believe in. I've been told several times that I'd go to Hell (the Christian Hell, mind you) and had my car keyed at school over my beliefs.
We may be the most civilized Christian nation on earth, so why must we deliver our payrolls in armored cars?
Look...I do not bash what someone believes in, as I tihnk it's not right to tell someone what or who they should follow. Why can't others do the same? Seems to me that there's be less pissed off people if other religions didn't force their beliefs on us, trying to change us.
Don't you think?
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You need to put yourself into the shoes of the person wearing the shirt. Read my first post and imagine yourself in that situation.
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Originally posted by texace
I, however, have noticed that the only people I've ever been irritated with over something they tell me or something they're trying to "sell" me are Christians.
You have never had to deal with insurance salespeople? Mortgage brokers? Carpet cleaners? Windshield replacement specialists? Telemarketers? Hey, I get the JW's at my door but they're polite when I say I have a religion but thank you very much, and in fact I wish the other solicitors who ring my doorbell or phone were as courteous and could take "no" for an answer.
I don't feel superior over anyone because I'm Christian- in fact I believe there are many paths to the truth but Jesus Christ is the path I have chosen. By all means, seek enlightment wherever you can. Christ talked about the common golden thread through all religions and beliefs so I respect the path you choose to guide you through your life and don't feel superior to you at all nor feel I am exalted above you. I believe we will all be judged by what is in our heart, not what is in our words, and if anyone feels like we won't be judged at all then I'm cool with that, if it's what you think then I hope it's the solution you get.
Seriously, I'm not here to "sell" anything. Mrfish seems to think we believers have a responsibility to debate him, but his ideas of debate on this subject are clever comments depitcting Christians as being insecure, weak, superstitious, different from the mainstream, self righteous, detatched, out of touch fanatics who want to shove God down your throats through clever manipulation of the judicial system where prayer might be once again allowed in public schools.... and in fact if we DON'T fight for these ideals and the conversion of every man woman and child to Christianity we somehow aren't good Christians... as is written in the Book of Mrfish. Amazing that a self proclaimed agnostic/athiest can dictate the narrow guidelines of what he believes our Christian thinking should be based upon his understanding of Christianity. Amazing more is that he calls us "narrow minded."
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again, i'm not an "atheist/agnostic" any more than you are a "christian/moslem" - i'm just an agnostic-period. if you want to make the case that you aren't narrow minded then you should start by learning the distinction between the two.
where did jesus talk about any golden thread among different religions? i'm unfamiliar with that passage.
you say you believe in all these different paths to enlightenment or the truth - is that an official bible view or is that an american-pseudo-christian-pop-culture-watered-down-to-be-nice-to-everyone view? maybe you could show me some passages since i am so direly uneducated in the matter-
you can't change a clause here or a passage there - jesus was pretty clear i thought about his requirements - you have to accept jesus as the one and only true god and you have to be baptized and follow the the commandments at bare minimum.
if you are following the "golden thread" of buddhism or druidism or whatever, then you ain't following it to heaven mac because those enlightened folk straight up can't get in. i know in your view they do but we're talking about christian doctrine, not your unique more tolerant view.
you can want it to be that way all day long, but you're either following some new 'jesus-based' or 'jesus-inspired' religion or 'based on a true story by jesus' or you're following the bible as written. i don't see it as open for argument, it just says right there to believe in jesus specifically or perish into eternal suffering.
the message i took from the new testament was one of absolute faith and urgency and passion - the common christian viewpoint today is one of caution, passisivity, and reserve.
you can hammer my interpretation of the bible all you want but i don't see how you can read the gospels, especially mark's gospel and feel any other way. i think the message of the gospel is frankly too demanding for today's sluggish pepsi swilling luxury christian.
today's christian is willing to say that prayer shouldn't be in school or the ten commandments on the wall and they're all embarassed to drop down on their knees at the mall and pray in front of everyone or sing a song to jesus on the sidewalk on your way to work.....why?
if you believe it's true then why comprimise? you want people to have faith in your religion but you're all low on faith and damned near embarassed of your religions sometimes. like i said, i don't see one single christian living like the disciples and early christians did, just a bunch of excuses as to why it can't be done.
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Which way is it? Are Christians too pushy, or or they too passive? Honestly, I can't decide what people think. The one thing I can discern from here is I have never done a bit of good talking about it with the people here. Perhaps people reading the thread and not posting may feel differently, perhaps not, but I am not divine and cannot tell. My sneaking suspicion is I haven't done too well.
You think Jesus never shook his head and walked away? Know where the phrase "No man is a prophet in his home town" came from? Or the phrase "Shake the dust from your sandles when you leave town"?
Look, I'd agree Christians shouldn't be embarassed about Jesus. I'd just as quickly say they shouldn't push people away from Jesus by being an embarassment.
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Originally posted by mrfish
you are the ones trying to get your rules on our school walls, you are the ones trying to get our kids praying to your god every morning, you are the ones lobbying congress, funding laws that support your positions in states other than your own, you're the ones always asking for our money, going door to door etc etc etc
[/b]
If you think about this for more than one second, you will realize that "we" are the ones who are trying to get our rules on our school walls since our kids go to school too. And suddenly there is something wrong with lobbying? Or does that just apply to Christians?
what you see as an attack is a defense! at least we (agnostics etc) don't burn you at the stake like you did to us. you've got no right to complain when people fight back - many of us don't want your nonsense in this country and the harder you push the more we'll resist - period. if you see it as an attack then good. your positions are weak and flacid and should be once and for all put to rest.
[/b]
Yeah, bring up something that happened 300 odd years ago. Great line of defense. Where are you on the reparations issue btw? As for your declaration of war against Christianity...seek professional help.
you want us to swallow these wacky off-the-wall views based on fear of mystic punishment and fear of almighty god's watchful eye but you can't prove anything and that blind fear-based mysticism has no place in this world so take it elsewhere - you're no victims not by a long shot so take off that crown of thorns and make your case -
[/b]The difference between you and me is that I know that I'm right and that you're wrong. If you are an agnostic, that means you dont believe in anything...correct? Well, good luck proving that you are right and I'm wrong then... since we all know how easy it is to prove that something is non-existant I mean. So even if we would take this to the philosophical level, you lose. But the thing you fail to realize is that religion is not about physical evidence, it is about faith. For some reason that seems to bother you.
And respectfully, it is not up to you to decide what this world needs or doesnt need.
i'm ready for a brave new world of personal responsibility not your old scared world.
[/b]
You are living in the world of personal responsibility already. Enjoy.
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"Yeah, bring up something that happened 300 odd years ago."
Maybe something that happened 2000 years ago, would be more persuasive?
"If you are an agnostic, that means you dont believe in anything...correct?"
No. An agnostic BELIEVES that the existence of a God is unknown, and probably unknowable.
"good luck proving that you are right and I'm wrong then... since we all know how easy it is to prove that something is non-existant"
As you point out, it is not possible to prove something is non-existant, therefore the burden of proof is on believers.
"So even if we would take this to the philosophical level, you lose."
Nope. You can play the "faith" card, but "reason" belongs to the other side. See above.
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So... what options are available to the believer?
Quote scripture? Nope, it will be denied as mere words.
Prove existance of events as cited in Bible? This continues to happen, but such events are played down as inconclusive or irrelevant.
Describe personal stories of God's touch? Denied as hallucination or chemical reaction to something eaten.
Stand on a street corner and scream like a zealot? While it proves your faith, it does nothing to bring new people in to the faith.
Prove the unprovable? Not possible.
Live the life of faith as instructed by God? Yes, this is doable. This means enduring attacks to the faith by those around you.
I don't hide I am a Christian, never have here. I am happy to engage in conversation about it, but that isn't really what we have here, is it? What we typically have is a believer setting himself up as a pie clown, and letting the passersby take their best shots. I can recall pretty good discussions with St.Santa and MT in particular, and though we didn't really change one another's minds, I felt the discussions were two-way.
No, what some want is to goad a Christian into standing up and enduring attacks- I don't know why. I can't get in the heads of people, so I can't guess why that is.
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Originally posted by popeye
As you point out, it is not possible to prove something is non-existant, therefore the burden of proof is on believers.
[/b]
Hm, did you miss what I said about "faith" instead of physical evidence?
Nope. You can play the "faith" card, but "reason" belongs to the other side. See above.
Not really. "Faith" is mine yes, but "reason" sure as he** dont belong to "the other side". Since an agnostic apparently believes that the existence of a God is unknown, and probably unknowable, you guys get "sceptic".
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Heck, I don't care what kind of T-shirt you wear, or what you do in the privacy of your home.
I just get bothered by "trash logic".
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this may surprise a few but I believe in god. I have felt him in the very best of times and the very worst. I have no proof.
I also think that my god would be sad to see all the people out there that claim special knowledge of what he wants. I cannot see choosing among the thousands of beliefes out there... every one that I have explored ends up with some cockeyed rule that they claim was handed down to them from someone who spoke directly to god and that all the other religions are simply full of toejam.
If it helps you live a good life... or even get through life... more power to ya. If you annoy me with it I will no doubt inform you of such. I guess we will all know one way or the other someday. I know a lot of very moral people that I wouldn't mind spending an eternity or two with that are agnostic or even atheist... I know some very religious people that I would rather take a beating than be in the same room for 10 minutes with.
lazs
funked said in response to the terror squirrle attack in england that was only stopped by a grandfather with an illeagal air rifle... "Wow if they had a rabid racoon I bet they'd have to call in NATO to bring over a .22 or something."
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I sure did miss you Stevie.
You are still full of Sh** but I sure did miss you. :D
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(http://www.astro.umd.edu/~miller/Cthulhu.gif)
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"If you are an agnostic, that means you dont believe in anything...correct?" - Hortlund
lol - yeah yeah that's it guy, that's about all i can say of your post - do your homework and try again.
"If you think about this for more than one second, you will realize that "we" are the ones who are trying to get our rules on our school walls since our kids go to school too."
- huh? isn't that what i said? not all kids are christians or should be exposed to your fantasy - your post is a little vague to me but i think i get the drift.
keiran - my problem is seeing otherwise rational people holding onto this completely primitive view. your god isn't the only one that's never shown - no one's god ever has not athena or zeus or gonesh or any of the gods the mayans killed over. what are the odds that all these people over all these centuries believed in all these gods (which magically never showed themselves) but somehow yours is true. yours is no different from all the other discarded myths out there.
instead of saying jesus all day - substitute the name 'zambooby'. when you hear your self saying that zambooby is going to come down from the sky and take us all to a special place somewhere in space and that zambooby can watch everyone in the world at once but doesn't like to show himself....you'll hear what it sounds like to the rest of us. silly.
but of course he doesn't show himself because that would tip the scales and we are supposed to pick good over evil on our own right? doesn't that seem kinda weird? can you imagine creating a child and a disease- then making the child highly suceptible to the disease and torturing them forever if he catches it?
these are real questions about your faith that don't add up - if god doesn't want evil then why bother creating it - much less making us drawn to it. i get this "because it's required for balance" - why? if he's god he can set up the universe any damn way he wants or does he play by some higher rules? you can see it as bashing if you want but those are inconsistencies so what's the deal?
imagine if someone killed your wife, you'd want to see them fry right - for how long? imagine 100 years of constant torture - even i would say "ok this guy's had enough - cut him loose, he's paid his debt to me and if i keep torturing him, then i am being wrong by my own standards."
your god not only tortures murderers, and not only for 100 years, but he threatens to torture anyone who doesn't fear and praise him for all eternity regardless of how they live their lives!
your religion entails sadistic sick and violent beliefs in my opinion and i don't feel like i'm bashing christians by asking them to explain that sickness - i've never heard anything other than "it's god's mysterious will" i'm afraid that's not enough.
ps lasz - how do i sign up for your god? do i need to own a healey?
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mr fish... you may not like my god that much... he does agree with you tho on torture at the end.... torture on earth? well, everything has a purpose... life is a learning experiance.. some of us have a higher tolerance for pain and are harder to teach... You may agree that everything that happens to us makes us what we are. We need some strife. No one gets out alive but I can't imagine my god torturing anyone for an eternity. what would be the point? even if it were true... do I want anything to do with a god that would extort me so? I believe that god is all around us and that ... far from him not revealing himself he reveals himself constantly... some of us choose not to see it. No big deal. I still believe that a moral atheist is guided by gods presence. I don't believe that god cares if you believe in him or not. I don't believe he has given any particular group exclusive trademark rights or power of attorney.
lazs
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Oh... did I forget to mention that god loves horsepower and firearms? Sex is good too but only if it doesn't get in the way of enjoying horsepower and firearms.
lazs
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BTW...I was refering to religious things...not salesmen. :)
I remember reading this somewhere...I think it was an answer to a college quiz.
"It's been said that all religions have their own versions of a 'Hell', right? Given the fact taht anyone who does not believe in a religion automatically goes to that religion's Hell, wouldn't every single soul be going to one form of Hell?"
or
"Hell is constantly expanding. Using Boyle's Law, if the amount of souls in Hell expand faster than Hell itself, the temperature of Hell will begin to rise until all Hell breaks loose. But if the amount of souls in hell expands slower than Hell itself, then the temperature of Hell decreases until Hell freezes over."
Ok, so the last one is just humor, but the first one is a valid point, yes? Given the fact I'm atheist, will my soul go to every single religion's Hell? Or will it simply go to the Christian Hell?
Sorry, I don't buy anything religios freaks tell me. What I mean are the Christian Bible thumpers and cross huggers, or the Jehova's Witnesses in their fancy suits and bicycles, or any other religious extremists who tell me that my soul will be saved if I join their religion.
Anyone remember the skit that George Carlin did about religion? "They've actually got you believing there's an invisible man living in the sky..." That's kinda how I feel about the whole thing. To me, religion simply became nothing but people in starched suits taking money to support their churches. I stopped supporting them when I no longer believed what they preached.
Onward!
:D
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Are we talking about the same Christian faith here?
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Escaped Ugandan Sex Slaves Battle Inner Demons
Mon Nov 11, 8:59 AM ET
By Matthew Green
GULU, Uganda (Reuters) - Rebels stormed into Hellen's village and clubbed her father to death before dragging her into the Ugandan bush for training as a child soldier.
For the 11-year-old girl, that was just Day One of her ordeal as slave "wife" in the Lord's Resistance Army (LRA), one of Africa's most fearsome rebel groups.
Kidnapped by the raiders who murdered her father, she was forced to stand in a row with 18 other abducted girls as a rebel commander picked her out as his mate. Rape consummated the union. Hellen had yet to reach puberty.
Now 17, she cradles his baby in her arms.
"I love the child, but I hate the father," says Hellen, speaking in a rehabilitation center in the northern town of Gulu. "If he comes here he won't touch my baby," she said, gazing intently at her son Justin suckling on her breast.
Hellen was released in June after nearly seven years of captivity, along with about 100 mothers and babies freed by the rebels during a forced march to escape a Ugandan army offensive.
"They beat us so much the skin peeled off our backs," she said softly, as Justin clasped at her gray and white dress.
The freed mothers were a lucky exception. Since June, rebels have embarked on their worst spree of abductions for years, seizing an estimated 4,000 children, some as young as 9.
Charities in Gulu say an average of at least 10 children are taken every day to serve the LRA, whose leader Joseph Kony is said to be a former altar boy who takes orders from a Holy Spirit and a host of "angels."
HERDED INTO BATTLE
Northern Uganda's eerie landscape of abandoned villages, long grass and misty hills is full of parents waiting in vain for their sons and daughters to come home.
Charities in Gulu estimate that Kony has seized at least 20,000 boys and girls during his 16-year-old rebellion, which has killed hundreds of people and forced half a million to flee.
Abductees are rapidly trained to shoot, then herded into battle against the army's tanks and helicopter gunships.
Anyone caught trying to escape is clubbed to death. Sometimes they have to dig their own graves first. Other children are forced to participate in the killings to instill discipline, according to the testimonies of escapees.
Food is scarce. Children eat wild plants. Most are used as slave laborers. Some are killed as "sorcerers."
For girls, it's worse.
"Once you are given to a man, whether he is young or old, you can't say no," said Esther, 29, who escaped in September after eight years at an LRA base in neighboring Sudan, which says it has now cut off support for the LRA.
Esther said she had been one of 12 wives serving one commander.
"Once the person wants to have sex with you, you have to do it -- if you try to refuse they can beat you with machetes," she said, telling how she carried her baby, Brenda, on a two-week flight through the bush to safety after an army attack.
TEN COMMANDMENTS
Ugandan President Yoweri Museveni has promised to crush the rebels by the end of February, but even if his "Iron Fist" offensive succeeds where others failed, healing the children of war will take years.
The LRA has created a lost generation of teen-agers who can barely read but know how to fire an AK-47 rifle, fueling a vicious circle of war and poverty gripping the north.
Human rights groups say northern discontent is rooted in discrimination under British colonial rule, ethnic massacres under former military ruler Idi Amin, and a feeling of neglect by the government, but Kony seems to have no clear agenda.
The self-styled prophet has in the past said he wanted to overthrow Museveni and rule according to the Biblical Ten Commandments. But to northerners, his motives are a mystery.
For those lucky enough to escape or be rescued by the army, the brainwashing by the LRA is hard to cast aside.
Children at rehabilitation centers look deceptively normal. They play cards, swing their legs from bunk begs and line up for lunch with green and red bowls, some laughing with visitors.
But many suffer mood swings and nightmares, shunning their peers. Some believe that Kony can still read their thoughts.
"Sometimes I dream that they have abducted me again," said Christopher Ojok, 14, who was held for almost two years but escaped in August during a gun battle between the army and rebels. "Sometimes I wake up startled. I think they've caught me," he said, matter-of-factly relating his ordeal.
The abducted boys and girls have grown up starved of love and can hardly speak about the past. Counselors say they must attempt the seemingly impossible -- to forgive their captors.
"When they know you love them they begin to trust you and they can talk to you in detail," said Florence Lakor, who counsels escapees. "Once they open up, the healing can begin."
Even if the children can confront their inner demons, their neighbors may not want them, sometimes seeing them as outcasts.
For the girls, whom some men consider as used goods, finding a husband may be difficult. The centers do not test for HIV-AIDS but counselors say some girls must be infected.
Hellen, who preferred not be identified by her second name, is hoping to learn tailoring, before heading back to her village, where the rebels may again come knocking.
"I'm scared, but there's nowhere else to go," she said.
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Hortlund, someone who doesnt believe in anything is a Nihilist. They do not have faith in anything, or so they say.
Atheists have as much faith as religious.
Agnostics have faith in logic.
An agnostic person is someone who believes that the existence of a God or a similar concept can not be proven or disproven by our primitive minds, and to believe that you are 100% sure of one way to the other is to have blind faith (though from all my bible reading I concluded that blind faith is an important and even cherished "virtue" of a good Christian)
You can be agnostic and still lead an even more spiritual life than religious people. You can be agnostic and still apply the teachings of buddha or christ or whatever prophet of your choice to your life, but you are not bound to any of them.
Most importantly, agnostics believe in logic above all else (not to the level of the Star Trek character ;) )
Though logic can be relative at times and skewed by many, that is why we keep a scientific way of thinking to everything.
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amen lasz! that's a pretty nice view
as for the rest of you who see non-christian beliefs as horrid, being agnostic doesn't stop you from being spiritual or having ideas about the unknown - it just says there's no way of knowing - at present- doesn't mean you can't theorize about it.
to me, the fact that we and everything that exists, may have emerged from the same little singularity, suggests that us and everything in it is like a giant entity constantly redefining itself. in that sense i think "god" is just nature from the quark to the galaxy etc etc
- it's you and the rock and the volcano and everything else. my "spiritual" moments if you want to call them that, come when i see how it all fits into one thing and i am able to lose the locus of self for a brief moment. <- that's the most spiritual thing i can imagine.
not believing in some specific god doesn't mean you can't feel the awe that comes from nature. do you fundamentalist types think we just go around getting body piercings and hating the world or something? :)
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I heard over the weekend that less than 1% of all Catholic priests are convicted/charged child molesters. Listening to the media, one would think that less than 1% weren't...
Same here, those without faith make so much noise, you'd think they were (hoped to be?) the majority. They are not and never will be.
Then you have to wonder WHY they make so much noise.
Is it to supress their own doubt & fear?
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Originally posted by Eagler
I heard over the weekend that less than 1% of all Catholic priests are convicted/charged child molesters. Listening to the media, one would think that less than 1% weren't...
Same here, those without faith make so much noise, you'd think they were (hoped to be?) the majority. They are not and never will be.
Then you have to wonder WHY they make so much noise.
Is it to supress their own doubt & fear?
Of course it is.
But it works both ways.
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so non-christians 'attack' christianty because they are insecure and afraid?
if that's your best argument....
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Well, Christians are not the only insecure people in this world.
Some choose to attack christians because of morals, some do it because its easy to jump the bandwagon, some do it because they are insecure, some do it because they feel threatned by anyone who doesnt agree, some do it because they want to antagonize their parents, and I believe mrfish does it because he is tired of trying to ignore what he believes is a foolish cult of self righteous salamanders who probably burned him at the stake in every one of his past lifetimes ;)
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I know a few non-Christians that attack Christianity because they're afraid that the Christians will kill the non-Christian men and rape the women.
See my posting above.
Then there was an incident in the former Yugoslavia you may recall. The war-crime tribunals are still in session.
And then there's the whole Spanish conquistadors and their impact on the Incas, Aztecs, and Mayans.
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FWIW, I don't look down on non-Christians.
I don't think you are all heathens.
I don't think all non-Christians hate the world and get body piercings.
Have I really said anything like that, ever?
I do wish you would take Jesus as your Savior.
I do witness to that end.
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Throughout the history of the world, people have attempted to explain the unexplainable. To this end, they have employed magical beings as the source for that unexplainable event. The Greeks and Romans (along with various other cultures) believed in multiple gods. Some cultures were monotheistic.
For example, the Greeks believed that Zeus controlled the thunderbolt and when it stormed, it was his anger being unleashed. Fire was a gift stolen from the gods by Prometheus and given to mortal man. As learning progressed, the need for these gods became less and less. People learned that lightning was not the result of some omnipotent being hurling charges of electricity at his enemies from atop a mountain. People learned that fire was simply the result of energy transformation. As people learned, the need for magical beings was negated. The beliefs that were held to be true, became legend and mythology.
Another thing that was realized was that religion could be utilized to amass and control the people. The gods are angry at you. Come to the temple and pray. Sacrifice so that they may be appeased. A few people who have been trained and have special favor shall show you the way. These people utilized this inherent fear of the unknown to manipulate people to do their bidding. Many a conflict throughout the history of the world has, at its roots, been because of religious ideology.
Today, there are still many things that cannot be explained. Also, there are many religions that attempt to explain said things. Followers of these religions claim that one needs faith. Christians will claim that the earth and universe were created by God. Man was created in God's image. One just needs faith to see that.
There will always be things that cannot be explained. Our quest to find as many answers as possible, so that we can enlighten our sons and daughters should be our ultimate goal.
Eventually, the bible, koran, or whatever religious flavor of the day exists, will be replaced with something else. What makes the Christian bible any more "right" in the explanation of things, than the Greek Mythology? Absolutely nothing. It just happens to be the explanation-du-jour. Sooner or later, current religious tomes will be on bookshelves in the fiction section, as those of the past are today.
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here is something interesting to ponder... It has been proven over and over that a large group of believers all praying for someone who is sick will aid in that persons recovery.. in "blind" testing... those who were prayed for allways did better than those who were not... it didn't seem to matter what god was being prayed to. Conversely... no one has ever been able to make someone more ill (or prove they have) by praying for it. I have no idea what that means but it is interesting and hints at energies that we may not understand yet. It also appears that the energies are "moral". glad of that.
lazs
funked said in response to the terror squirrle attack in england that was only stopped by a grandfather with an illeagal air rifle... "Wow if they had a rabid racoon I bet they'd have to call in NATO to bring over a .22 or something."
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Texace, you are a person with very little imagination.
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the bottom line is you beleive what you want, I BELEIVE IN JESUS CHRIST, I HAVE FAITH, note the keyword FAITH, do not try and debunk me, you cannot and will not succeed. the simple fact remains those with out FAITH are trying to find it they are suffering with there own miserable lives and do not comprehend what FAITH is , so there by try to(at least in here) bash those who beleive, and try to convince the FAITHFUL that there GOD does not exist, like i said primarily do to there lack of FAITH in any thing outside there own minute existance, CHRIST DIED TO SAVE ME FROM MY SINS <--NUFF SAID
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Originally posted by lazs2
here is something interesting to ponder... It has been proven over and over that a large group of believers all praying for someone who is sick will aid in that persons recovery.. in "blind" testing... those who were prayed for allways did better than those who were not... it didn't seem to matter what god was being prayed to. Conversely... no one has ever been able to make someone more ill (or prove they have) by praying for it. I have no idea what that means but it is interesting and hints at energies that we may not understand yet. It also appears that the energies are "moral". glad of that.
lazs
Really!? can you provide a link please?
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The only thing that kinda upsets me about this whole debate is the insinuation I might have bashed people that don't believe as I do. That simply is not true.
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"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
Hebrews 11:1
I've read all of this and am left with the following....
and I paraphrase....
It is not what enters a man that will defile him, but rather what comes from his mouth.
Guys, Jesus said the following after trying to share the truth with others....it has always spoken in a profound way to my spirit.
"If any man have ears to hear, let him hear" and also, "You have ears, yet you hear not and eye's, yet you see not"
After reading this entire thread, I was reminded of those statements.
One thing for sure for those of you who feel the need to prove something....it is appointed for every man to die, so, some day we all will know who was right and who was wrong.
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your beliefs are an affront by themselves - can you be a good person without being a christian?
must not be the case if all non christians go to hell right? god doesn't send good people to hell does he so.... therefor you are automatically assigning a lower moral value to non-christians.
if that's not bashing i don't know what is.
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I have no problem with Christians, but one thing bothers me a little.
Didn't Jesus basically say something like "You will find salvation only through me."?
That essentially condemns most of the World population to Hell, and I find that an idea that I cannot come to terms with.
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I think we'd all have Faith .....
(http://www.chascollectiblesnstuff.com/Faith_Hill.jpg)
if it were Faith Hill :)
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I have no problem with Christians, but one thing bothers me a little.
Didn't Jesus basically say something like "You will find salvation only through me."?
That essentially condemns most of the World population to Hell, and I find that an idea that I cannot come to terms with.
Well if it's correct then you will have plenty of time to come to terms with it.
And also you can see why believers are so eager to get the message out. The penalty for not getting the message is unthinkable.
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No room for good Buddists or Hindus in Heaven funked?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
No room for good Buddists or Hindus in Heaven funked?
Not unless they have accepted Jesus as their savior. I don't make the rules, sorry.
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Boo freakin hoo fish. You guys try so hard to prove stuff that you trip over each others big heads. Just calm down and be content that christians are just gonna go back to being dirt in the end. If I were an atheist or agnostic I'd be all about that. What a funny gag huh? They think they're going to heaven but they just cease altogether. You should be going for that angle. That'll show 'em! ;)
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firearms, horsepower and beautiful women lazs..
and not necessarily in that order :)
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Originally posted by funkedup
Not unless they have accepted Jesus as their savior. I don't make the rules, sorry.
LOL...if that's the case, I must say that I do find it sad that anyone would worship a deity who's so petty as to damn anyone to hell who doesn't spend their life in his service.
SOB
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Originally posted by funkedup
Not unless they have accepted Jesus as their savior. I don't make the rules, sorry.
that be the preachers making them rules, the same ones which pass da hat every service
There is enlightenment and then there isn't
it wears many customes and rituals
the bible is a very holy book, as are many other spiritual scriptures/ too bad mans narrow minded interpretation changes/clouds their true meaning, usually into a self serving one
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Ummmmmmmmmmmmkay never mind that whole "New Testament" thing. I suppose they were just kidding about the whole eternal life thing......
:rolleyes:
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According to the bible, enlightenment isn't enough to get you upstairs.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
According to the bible, enlightenment isn't enough to get you upstairs.
I do believe that would depend on what rev of the bible and who is doing the reading/interpretation
Enlightenment IS Upstairs
don't worry, we all will keep coming back and trying again until we get it right :)
oh yeah forgot, the "leaders" removed ref to reincarnation from the bible as it did not fit into "their" religious ways (2nd
Council of Constantinople 533 a.d). Not enough fear in try try again. they'd rather have one pop and you are judged for "eternity".
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Originally posted by Eagler
Enlightenment IS Upstairs
Interesting... even to an atheist. :)
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Originally posted by mrfish
your beliefs are an affront by themselves - can you be a good person without being a christian?
must not be the case if all non christians go to hell right? god doesn't send good people to hell does he so.... therefor you are automatically assigning a lower moral value to non-christians.
if that's not bashing i don't know what is.
So what you are basically saying is that, regardless of how I behave, what I say or do, you are going to bash me because of what I believe? And you think I am offensive? And you want someone to discuss the issue with you?
You don't think that comes across a bit... fanatical? You are assigning behaviors and thoughts to me that have not been borne out by any of my actions or words. I realize I am just a vehicle to your destination, but at least do try to play fair.
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Further... I never said non-Christians weren't good people. I am not assigning moral value to anyone. If you believe this, you really don't have the understanding of the Bible you say you do.
God assigns the moral value. God makes the judgements. In fact, we are specifically told NOT to judge people. You know that, certainly.
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Originally posted by Kieran
Further... I never said non-Christians weren't good people. I am not assigning moral value to anyone. If you believe this, you really don't have the understanding of the Bible you say you do.
God assigns the moral value. God makes the judgements. In fact, we are specifically told NOT to judge people. You know that, certainly.
you should consult with funked if you need clarification on the rules.
ALL non-believers go to hell - > ALL people that go to hell are bad people
i am a non-believer, so i am going to hell, so i am a _________ person.
jump in if i am wrong here.....
now, you say non-believers can be good - > so is it possible for good people to go to hell then if they don't meet the entrance requirements to heaven?
if you say "yes, good people can go to hell" ie - good person but unbaptised and non-believer
then your god is unjust
if you say "no, good people can't go to hell" ie. god makes judgments exclusive of his rules, then you are saying the rules in the new testament are meaningless.
there's just no way around that.
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I'm not any kind of theological expert. It may actually possible to get eternal life without praying for it. Maybe God will grant mercy to nonbelievers. I do know that eternal life is explicitly guaranteed for those who accept Christ as their savior, and this is why people do things like knock on doors and wear Jesus t-shirts. They are trying to share the greatest gift ever. Maybe you don't think it is a great gift, but if you want to understand why they do these things (which I thought was the point of this thread in the first place) then you need to put yourself in their shoes.
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ah!
finally thanks funked for the straight answer-
so a non-believer can go to heaven then?
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Time for me to clarify some points.
1. My belief says the only way to heaven is through Jesus.
2. My belief says that God will judge all; it is not me or anyone here on earth to do so.
3. My belief says that I must treat everyone as if Jesus exists in them- because He does.
4. I am not denying anything written in the Bible- neither am I attacking anyone who does.
I have noted some things you have stated, and they don't make sense in the Bible I know.
1. Where does it say people should wander the earth, depending soley on God to provide?
2. Where does it say believers are to always be confrontational?
3. You also stated you would follow John the Baptist- yet JtB himself stated he was "not fit to tie the sandles" of the one who would follow. So- would you follow him and do as he says? You realize JtB knew he must diminish so that he didn't become the religion, because it was God's plan that Jesus be the foundation?
More though... and this is the thing that troubles me... you keep attacking, attacking... saying you want discussion, or proof, or backing a viewpoint... yet you are totally adversarial in your approach. Even this doesn't bother me (though I feel the uselessness of my attempts), but assigning behavior or words to me that have no foundation is completely frustrating. Am I being condescending to you? Have I called you a bad person? Have I called you a danger to society? Honestly, I don't know where that stuff comes from, especially since I take pains NOT to say or do such things.
Maybe it is you are trying to drive all believers into a corner, to pound away with your reasoning- I really don't know. Maybe you really do perceive Christianity as a real threat to the world. Does it occur to you your postings in this thread pretty much justify my questions to texace at the top of this thread? Would it surprise you to hear you are not the first agnostic to... aggressively... attack my belief?
Maybe atheists and agnostics don't go door-to-door. I can tell you I never heard a Christian say "your beliefs are an affront by themselves." Say what you want, but pinning an intolerant tag on Christians by being intolerant is a bit odd.
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Fish I don't have a Bible here at work so I can't look it up. And like I said I'm not an expert. From what I've read here I would say Keiran knows his stuff a lot better than I do. The part that I know for sure is that eternal life is guaranteed if you accept Jesus, and that is enough for me.
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kieran - most of what you are asking has already been answered in my posts but i'll try my best.
if you are asking for a strict rule saying do this or do that then you are abandoning the one thing the bible gives you - interpretability if it is interpretable for you then it is for me too -
And He instructed His disciples that they should take nothing for their journey, except a mere staff; no bread, no bag, no money in their belt; but to wear sandals; and He added, "Do not put on two tunics." – Jesus quoted by Mark 6:8-9
his message to his disciples is his message to me in my opinion, i don't seperate their duties from mine...
The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?" Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." – Jesus quoted by Matthew 19:20
sounds like capitol advice but again, i've never met a christian that did as this guy......
And as they were going along the road, someone said to Him, "I will follow You wherever You go." And Jesus said to him, "The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head." – Jesus quoted by Luke 9:57-58
i feel this is a perfect testimony of faith - these versus formed my view mostly 0 i think there was another that said "don't even bother to get married, he's coming!" - lol roughly paraphrased of course, maybe someone can clue me in on that as i forget or was mistaken...andof course what i quoted before about the generation not passing away etc - that really drives home the urgency of jesus' mission by my interpretation.
as for your second question, it doesn't say anyone should be confrontational as far as i recall that's just how i'd be by my interpretation of what it asks of christians.
if you believe that the word saves souls then how should you proceed? meekly? cautiously? timidly? my interpretation is that- if you believe - you should beg borrow and steal your way into convincing people and never let up - if you love everyone then you will be hurting at the thought of losing their souls - personally, that would torture me.
and for your third question - john's humility only makes me love his style more - i'm basing my point of view on his actions to answer your question more directly.
thanks again funked - i'd love to hear that point expanded btw - religion requires seperation but you and others, kieren, airhead and others included want to justify their religious rules with their sense of justice, i think that is cool and shows where your heart is.
i still contend though that if you strictly follow the bible, you just can't have it both ways. that's my deepest point of contention.
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Fish I wouldn't justify any "religious rules" with anything but the Word itself. If I'm mistaken as to what the Bible is saying about these things then I hope that somebody would point it out to me.
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PS Fish you seem to understand my responses to Texace about the motivation of the t-shirt wearers,
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back funked - and everyone else for that matter - it wasn't hatred of christians or some wacky event that caused me to abandon christianity.
i had a real problem being able to live up to the way i thought a christian should be. i can't imagine doing it half assed and i was doing it half assed like most everyone else i know.
i just can't believe that god would set us up to fall - one day maybe he'll come down and slap me. lol- i'll take a pic so you can all mock me, you know when the second coming happens you'll be like "ha-ha that fugger fish- i bet he is crapping his pants now!"
:)
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Ok... now we get down to it.
And He instructed His disciples that they should take nothing for their journey, except a mere staff; no bread, no bag, no money in their belt; but to wear sandals; and He added, "Do not put on two tunics." – Jesus quoted by Mark 6:8-9
Put into context, this as much expresses the urgency in which they were instructed to carry out their duties as it does assure the faithful their needs would be met. You recall the disciples had been pretty much holed up since the crucifixion of Christ. This was Christ saying "Whaddya doin' here? The needy are out THERE!" Jesus wanted them to go forth- that is the gist of the quote.
The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?" Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." – Jesus quoted by Matthew 19:20
A couple of things on this one; first, the Law was never going to save man- else Jesus would have been unnecessary. Second, the problem wasn't that the man was wealthy- the problem was the man held his wealth in higher esteem than he did God. Jesus read his heart, and when he told the man to sell all he had it showed the man's true god. Jesus wasn't saying you can't have wealth... think about it, God made many religious leaders rich and powerful (Solomon?). Jesus was saying "You can have no other God before me"... the First Commandment.
And as they were going along the road, someone said to Him, "I will follow You wherever You go." And Jesus said to him, "The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head." – Jesus quoted by Luke 9:57-58
Of course this is a charge for all that follow Jesus. Does it mean those that follow are to have no home? Not necessarily. You notice He gave three messages in that section. One person volunteered to follow, and Jesus warned it would not be easy to follow (the meaning of your scripture). The second Jesus asked to follow, and told to follow now- the exact reason for the urgency is unclear. The third man offered to follow, but asked to say good-bye to his family. Jesus said in effect "those that look back are not fit to follow". What this means is following is a commitment, and not to be taken lightly.
But I really believe it comes to this- if God calls you to do something, you need to be ready to do it. If this means traveling the earth, so be it. If it means teaching, being a doctor, a hamburger chef, whatever, you need to be ready to do it.
Check out Luke 19:11... there is a discussion of talents. I need to hunt up something more specific, but the point is there are many talents distributed to people, some more, some less, and we are charged to use them as best we can. Some people will be evangelists, but most won't.
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i had a real problem being able to live up to the way i thought a christian should be. i can't imagine doing it half assed and i was doing it half assed like most everyone else i know.
That is true of all of us, Mr. Fish. As much as I like to believe I am a good guy, I get to the end of the day and can mark multiple places I screwed up. And you know as well as I do God made it very clear no man could make himself perfect- no man. No less a warrior for God than David had multiple failures as a believer, yet he is always referred to as "a man after God's heart". I have to hand it over to God and ask for forgiveness, and ask Him to work through me to do His will.
Take this debate we are currently in... I personally didn't (at the outset) see any usefulness in pursuing it. Now I am not so sure. It isn't up to me to say when God opens a door or not, and the fact you seemed to want this discussion, and the fact I do feel the need to defend my religion when necessary brought it about anyway. Now it may be we made progress in considering one another's viewpoints, perhaps not, but if nothing else you challenged my thinking again.
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ah! those are good answers but they haven't really moved my interpretation.
"Whaddya doin' here? The needy are out THERE!"
exactly man! i feel there is no difference today....
nothing will change the fact that i feel the best christians are the ones getting into it fully. having a job and doing the routine keeps you from preaching and praising, i'd have to be out there all the time and i'd believe enough to have faith that god'd take care of me. can you imagine that faith? that freedom? if i couldn't live that life then i wouldn't believe - is that a fanatic? i couldn't be anything less if i decided to believe.
if you disagree with my interpretaion then so be it - i can deal with that, but isn't it odd that more christians don't just go and preach and spend day and night sweating over unsaved souls, maybe even with complex charts and tables and all kindsa soul-saving strategy and not worry about each day and just go out preaching and carrying on.
i'll always see his message that way i'm afraid, but you do make some clear points above to your credit.
i cheer christians in tee-shirts in one sense, because at least they are living it large - i just can't get past the part that tells me their horse is a loser in the end and that faith would be better spent in the real world.
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Just FYI Fish, I know people who live the way you are talking about. People who gave up very lucrative careers to spread the word here and in other countries, places where spreading the word can get you jailed or worse. They ARE out there.
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Originally posted by Kieran
Take this debate we are currently in... I personally didn't (at the outset) see any usefulness in pursuing it. Now I am not so sure. It isn't up to me to say when God opens a door or not, and the fact you seemed to want this discussion, and the fact I do feel the need to defend my religion when necessary brought it about anyway. Now it may be we made progress in considering one another's viewpoints, perhaps not, but if nothing else you challenged my thinking again.
i didn't see this - you must have been posting whilst i was blabbing - i agree in a sense. :)
i pose this challenge (half seriously for a change;))- you christians figure out as a group what the bible means when it comes to us non-believers.
if you really think the rules say we can all be accommodated then we have a chance of losing our differences and getting things done- if you think we are doomed then you are setting up a rift, not us. you have to see how thinking a whole group of people are going to be tortured forever might bring on a little angst! sheesh ;)
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man, i logged back on just now armed with some more material to post and I find yall
ing eachother and actually agreeing!
blargh, c'mon! fight!
ah well.
maybe i'll troll a little bit to get the party started...
(http://www.jasonswholesale.com/trolls.jpg)
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No, no, no...
I see it differently, and understand, I have the complete reverse upbringing you had. I come from an atheistic family. I am the sole openly religious person from that family. I know what happens when Mormons, Jehova Witnesses, etc. come knocking on an unwelcome door. I also know the mindset of the people after they leave. I watched my dad calmly tell my relatives who were religious to shut the hell up and leave if they were going to talk religion, because he didn't want to hear it in his house.
Now it took me a while to come to terms with the fact I was a believer, but I always knew I was. I constantly denied the constant feeling I was living wrong, and would quiet those feelings by telling myself someday... someday I would set it straight.
I met my wife, we were married, and I was finally in an environment where I could nurture a growth in understanding of God. I had this misconception that I needed to make myself "good" before I could become a Christian- which of course completely misses the point. It was because I could not make myself perfect I needed to become a Christian. Once I understood that point, I stepped out and was Baptized.
That took me 33 years to accomplish, and I do believe it was God's will it happened that way. I believe God prepares you individually for His Word, through your life experiences, through your acquaintences, through everything, but everyone will get their shot to come to Him. It doesn't matter if I am the one to reach you or not- someone or something will be there. Yes, I still should witness anytime and every time the opportunity presents itself, but trying to force a situation that clearly does not exist isn't necessarily the right thing to do, and in fact may be moving ahead of God's plan.
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I made the comment on the T-shirts after I was basically condemned for not "seeing the light" of the Christian faith. Later in the thread, I stated that it is usually Christians who are the ones who really try to get you to believe.
It's been that way for centuries...ever since Christianity became a "major" religion. Notice how a few wars years and years ago were over religion? On the same note, ever notice how Christian people will hate you or hurt you if you don't believe?
I had my car keyed at school over my beliefs. I had to get my entire car repainted, as the guy or guys went over it pretty good. Busted a window too. Know what? Upon reviewing the footage from the camera out school installed, the guys who did it (who have now been suspended) were all devout Christians.
Would someone who's Jewish do that? What about Muslim? Who knows...all I know is what I have seen. But did this change my faith? No, it hasn't. I refuse to be scared about my beliefs. What would you do? If you saw a Christain or a Jew or anyone keying your car over your beliefs?
BYW, funked...I have as much imagination as anyone....though sometimes I'm dumber than a box of rocks...but hey, who isn't?
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Texace, that might not always be the case. The Christians that keyed your car are a few rotten apples. Did you in any way provoke them? I can't really see anyone doing that just because you choose not to believe. My friends, even the 'fanatics' do not condemn me or anything for my beliefs. Yes, they do say "I hope you find your way to the Right path" or "I'll pray for you" as if I've made some horrible decision. This allows them to continue their hypocritical ways, and you know what? It doesn't bother me a bit. I'm happy just as long as they don't try preaching and/or forcing something on me.
This page (http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/homeofcd/jesus.html) properly demonstrates what it was that turned me off. To me, this seems no different than Catholicism and jumping through a few hoops in order to have your "spot" in heaven reserved. It totally contradicts. Maybe if you "say the prayer with all your heart and you reeeeally mean it (as they say at that page), you'll have your spot saved... guaranteed.
From the contradictions I have found, the fact that it cannot be proved and comes down to blind faith, the basic hypocrisy of the followers (not all!) and the church itself, I chose not to follow it any longer. Like Fishy said, maybe we'll get whapped on the head by jebus himself, maybe the rapture will happen and we'll be left behind, who knows! The fact is, you cannot prove it right, and conversely, you cannot prove it wrong. I stay away and tend not to let this bother my daily actions. I can still have a good time with my 'fanatic' friends along side my non-christian, agnostic friends.
whatever floats their boat. I wont try to sink it as long as they dont sink mine.
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Originally posted by mrfish
i cheer christians in tee-shirts in one sense, because at least they are living it large - i just can't get past the part that tells me their horse is a loser in the end and that faith would be better spent in the real world.
Real world? Gee Mr. Fish, my Church raises money to help support a homeless shelter and soup kitchen, we distribute meals to the elderly, Christmas toys to poor children, Hospice to the dying, counseling to people trying to overcome marital or other personal problems, scholarships for deserving students...we organized community blood drives after 9-11, set up 3,000 crosses to commemorate the event on 9-11-2002, and yada yada yada... all the while expecting nor wanting anything in return other than the knowledge we have helped somebody in the REAL world even if it's in a very small way.
Now before you start typing a rebuttal claiming all these things can be accomplished by non-Christian organizations, I agree entirely Christianity hasn't a monolopy on kindness and good works. I'm just pointing out some of the things my Church strives to accomplish- none of them because we are weak, fearful, superstisious or any of the other unflattering terms you apply to Christians- we do it because it needs to be done and, yes, I also get a small bit of earthly pleasure out of helping truly needy people out.
According to you if I'm not living destitute in a cornfield I'm not a true believer, but if I decided to live up to your ideal of what a Christian should be like and move into a cornfield you would call me a superstisious fool. LOL I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't, according to you. What do you want me to say? I'll quit my Church because we aren't accomplishing anything worthwile anyway, other than spreading lies? Please don't make me retell the Little Girl and the Starfish story.
I'm not the best of Christians, admittedly. But really, my Church accomplishes things that help people out in the REAL world because that is the world we are all currently living in. Why does taking part in my religion make me weak, fearful, cowardly or so many of the other names you have to refered to believers as? Or even more importantly, why are you so opposed to my pratice of my religion? Because you think I'm wrong? Please, there's "wrong" people we all ignore every day. Why does my religion cause you such consternation? I really don't get it.
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Texace I'm sorry to hear what those people did to you. Unfortunately there is no mechanism to prevent amazinhunks from saying they are christians.
I would never hate or hurt somebody for not believing.
Pity maybe, hate never.
And there's no reason for hurt either. If you die before you are saved then you will have quite enough hurt. :(
The imagination comment was in regards to you imagining yourself in the shoes of someone who believes that you will face the most horrible possible fate if you aren't saved. If you can envision yourself in that situation then maybe you can understand why somebody would wear a t-shirt like the one you pictured.
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Originally posted by mrfish
your beliefs are an affront by themselves - can you be a good person without being a christian?
must not be the case if all non christians go to hell right? god doesn't send good people to hell does he so.... therefor you are automatically assigning a lower moral value to non-christians.
if that's not bashing i don't know what is.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:8,9
Can you be a good person without being a christian? Sure...the difference is who defines good. In Gods eyes all have fallen short and need a saviour, Jesus Christ, who's shed blood at calvary covers our sins.
If you feel justified that mankind recognizes you as a good person, then the end of that will be what it will be.
Most everyone I know likes and respects me as a man, a professional and a father....does that justify me in Gods eyes?
No, it does not.
Many of you will laugh, but God loves us all...we are his creation, black, white, yellow....all of us. It is his desire that he have fellowship with all of us.
Unfortunately, the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.
It is my sincere hope that all of you might come to know the peace which only God can provide....to know your enemy and to understand that this is not about what I or another so called christian might think or say, but rather what decision you make regarding your life.
I am not your judge, for only God knows a mans heart.
There is but one truth....what different men believe to be that truth has no effect...it still remains the truth.
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mt... knew I probly shouldn't have said that about the prayer thing... I watched it on a PBS thing a while back and don't have any link to it. Maybe someone else does? I know it has been tried many times... I also seen a part where "believers" were bitten by poisous snakes and drank enough arsenic to kill a dozen men with no ill affects.
My point is... I believe that kieran and the other christians will find their heaven through christ and only him... I believe other believers will find their heaven by their prescribed ways. I don't think god handed out power of atorney to any one religion.
I think modern christians do a whole lot more good than they do harm and... while I am a little miffed that they would condem me to the fires of hell for no other offence than.... not caring about wheter or not christ existed or, id the son of god... I don't really get too angry about it. I meet their attempts with like force... if they are conversational then I am conversational.... when the conversation reaches the inevitable.... "well because it is written" then.... the conversation is over. Ther is no point in discussing it any further...
lazs
funked said in response to the terror squirrle attack in england that was only stopped by a grandfather with an illeagal air rifle... "Wow if they had a rabid racoon I bet they'd have to call in NATO to bring over a .22 or something."
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Originally posted by mrfish
ah!
finally thanks funked for the straight answer-
so a non-believer can go to heaven then?
I am the way, the truth and the light; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6
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MrFish summed it up nicely as far as i'm conserned.
Kieran, i was brought up in VERY religious family in the country that has more churches per person or per mile then any other place on the planet.
Main problem is that I never really believed. Never felt that "extrernal something" touch me in any sense.
Secondly, hypocricy of Holy Mother Church in Poland and better part of its followers litterally guaranteed that I will never even thing about going back into the fold.
99% of polish population declares themselves as Roman Catholic. At least 50% of it is actively practicing. Those are usually people in rural regions and the poor cities. Same people who spend their last cent on potatos and vodka. Who abuse their wives and children in such ways that would make SS-man proud. And sunday morning they put on their only decent outfit, and march right up to be cleansed of thier sins....
If there is one problem with any faith it is the idea of "instant forgiveness". Lay down and pray for two hours and all your sins are forgiven... again and again. You can be a total piece of toejam, but on sunday, under the sign of the cross all that will be gone and forgiven.....
( in this context it is hillarious that conservatist types are usually very religious.... tough on crime of any sort and absolvation for me ? )
In USA i've observed a westernised version of christianity.
I guess you could call it "liberized" version :) It's the "my god is different" approach. It's quite genious actually.
Wanna screw before the marriage ? That's ok - my personal God doesn't care.
Wanna do drugs or drink like mad ? Sure no problem. My God wouldn't mind.
Disrespect your parents ? That particular commendment was nullfied by my personal god.
Help poor ? diddly them. Let them get a job !!! ( Sounds familiar ? )
So my beloved belivers :) Pick up that Bible which you love to thumb so loudly. Read it and follow the word. Litterly. Don't roadkill, translate, abbriviate or read into it.
If interpretation is so importatant we could make "Mein Kamfp" into a positive piece. I've read the Bible. Live it the way your "god" disctaced. "Interpretation" excuse doesn't cut it.
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Just for the record, I don't condemn anyone. That isn't my job. :D
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Heyas Ski....
Just a thought....you might want to stop looking at men and their religion...then and only then will you see the truth.
Heyas Keiren:)
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heyya Rude ;) We had this conversation, didn't we ? :)
I remember 3 hours at the con :D
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Originally posted by Rude
I am the way, the truth and the light; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6
an even straighter answer. and the one that causes the problems.
it's kinda like walking out into the world every day and saying "all these people are going to burn when they die but I'M not, I'M a christian and I'M going to heaven. let me hang my head in pity a-la jesus and pity all these poor, poor people...they are nice and good and don't hurt anybody but god is going to fry them forever because they don't believe and somehow i don't feel any cognitive dissonance over that because i am happy hehe yeeaaaah praise god!!!!"
if you don't see how that hurts rather than helps the world then what can i say? i'm not saying you consciously deride everyone but you should think about what your beliefs say implicitly to non-believers.
your good deeds? counseling? your answers don't take into account the persons needs, the church is no psychologist - all you do in each case is hit them with a soothing hypo full of reassuring scripture - i could do that with heroin.
people come to you when they are scared and hurting because they need answers whether those answers make sense or not. they are scared of death or scared of homelessness or scared of this and scared of that - you say hey we were scared too but christ made it all better with his reassurances from beyond the grave - come aboard!
if you think we are going to be punished solely for non-belief then either you think we have done something deserving punishment or you believe that god punishes good people. i still haven't heard that refuted and doubt i ever will - saying you don't condemn people isn't enough, your beliefs speak where you don't. see it.
as for my interpretation of the bible, it's no better or worse than anyone elses - i imagine we'd have a different take on the metamorphisis, heart of darkness, moby dick and daisey miller too(i thought daisey was a flirty squeak that deserved to die by the way).
personally, i'd rather be in a cornfield than bloated behind the pulpit of a giant gilded cathedral, congratulating myself on how gracious my charity is and asking for another fat check from the congregation.
you don't have to agree - it's just my take on it.
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Originally posted by Rude
Heyas Ski....
Just a thought....you might want to stop looking at men and their religion...then and only then will you see the truth.
Heyas Keiren:)
just curious - do your eyes roll back in your head when you say all that wafty stuff? do you kinda close your eyes and nod out for a sec?
:p
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Originally posted by Kieran
Just for the record, I don't condemn anyone. That isn't my job. :D
No, that is God's job ;)
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if you think we are going to be punished solely for non-belief then either you think we have done something deserving punishment or you believe that god punishes good people. i still haven't heard that refuted and doubt i ever will - saying you don't condemn people isn't enough, your beliefs speak where you don't. see it.
You are condemning the messengers. Speaking only for myself I can tell you that I don't condemn you, and my religion does not require I do so, either. My religion says I should live so that you see my religion in me, and I should treat you as if Jesus lives in you.
I'm sorry I can't do better than that, but I can't, I'd just be making stuff up. The only unforgiveable sin is rejecting Jesus so far as I know. That leaves the door open to a lot of people- as it should. Likewise if I interpret it another way it closes doors to atheists. Still, to me it is of no consequence, I still must treat you (royal you) the same. Until the day you die you have the chance to be saved, and I might play a part in that salvation.
The way you paint it, Christians walk around looking down their noses at everyone- a very big misconception of true Christians. True Christians do just the opposite.
Ski-
Sorry to hear that about the religious people you knew. I wish I could tell you that all Christians behave perfectly, but of course they don't and I can't. What can I say? Jesus said "Not all who call 'Jesus! Jesus!' will be saved." This is a warning to people who practice in name only.
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Originally posted by Animal
No, that is God's job ;)
not really
we condemn ourselves - through our thoughts & deeds
action-reaction whether its positive or negative
ying & yang - karma - many names - same end result
the boomerang of life - whatever you throw out there is gonna come back to you - sooner or later - so best make it a warm and fuzzy
oh yeah, don't think in terms of time - that's only a worry here :)
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Originally posted by Kieran
You are condemning the messengers.
that's a convenient way to see it - displacing the blame to god himself taking the position "i'm just a soldier i dunno..."
your club believes you will receive eternal life, your club believes the rest of us are condemned.
it doesn't matter what you explicitly believe, implicitly you are assigning a value to non-believers.
what if i told you that god just visited me and he said christians were wrong after all and you were condemned and that i feel sorry for you and pity you because you won't see the light?
i don't want your pity or your sympathy because i don't need it - your group doesn't have anything to offer me except myth.
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it doesn't matter what you explicitly believe, implicitly you are assigning a value to non-believers.
We're just going to have to disagree on that point. I think you misunderstand the Bible here.
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"Live by the foma* that make you brave and kind and healthy and happy."
The Books of Bokonon I:5
*Harmless untruths
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What would you have God do to them that oppose him? There is no "sittin' on the fence" here. Either you do or you don't, simple as that.
I as a Christian certainly do not look down on non-believers nor is there a feeling of pity, but rather one of desire, a desire that all chose to follow the righteous path. Not a path mandated by man, by no means.
I am a Christian. I will pray for those who aren't...whether you like it or not.
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Originally posted by Apache
I am a Christian. I will pray for those who aren't...whether you like it or not.
listen to yourself- what a completely christian line, you 'pray for us'. you can't hear how condescending that sounds? you don't think that equates to a form of pity?
what if i told you that i hope you'll eventually come to your senses- does that sound like i respect your position? if i want you to change then i must think you're doing something wrong or do christians just really want me to change for an entirely arbitrary reason?
well that is what you and all christians are saying to me - you hope i'll come to my senses and praise god - that alone means you are taking what you believe to be a higher moral position and hoping i'll ascend to it some day.
if you feel my position is equal then why does it matter if i accept yours? making sense yet? drop your christian dope smile for a minute and try to put yourself in my position.
and kieren how am i misunderstanding the bible? the only bible truth my reference needs is the fact that those who don't believe in jesus go to hell. is that not the case or not? why does that question and my simple propositon in my last post bring so much evasion?
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Originally posted by Apache
...rather one of desire, a desire that all chose to follow the righteous path. Not a path mandated by man, by no means.
that's just too rich to ignore - i had to bring that back for an encore
maybe we'll chose the righteous path as opposed to our current path which is_______________________?
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Its ok apache just remember that it is best to pray for squaddies first... especially those who need it most..
If apache is in heaven I wouldn't mind visiting once in a while... same for rude and probly kieran... probly a lot of nice christian folk will be there. were ever I go tho... bet I meet some pretty interesting folks... been that way so far... don't see why it would change.
lazs
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Originally posted by mrfish
listen to yourself- what a completely christian line, you 'pray for us'. you can't hear how condescending that sounds? you don't think that equates to a form of pity?
what if i told you that i hope you'll eventually come to your senses- does that sound like i respect your position? if i want you to change then i must think you're doing something wrong or do christians just really want me to change for an entirely arbitrary reason?
well that is what you and all christians are saying to me - you hope i'll come to my senses and praise god - that alone means you are taking what you believe to be a higher moral position and hoping i'll ascend to it some day.
if you feel my position is equal then why does it matter if i accept yours? making sense yet? drop your christian dope smile for a minute and try to put yourself in my position.
and kieren how am i misunderstanding the bible? the only bible truth my reference needs is the fact that those who don't believe in jesus go to hell. is that not the case or not? why does that question and my simple propositon in my last post bring so much evasion?
Nothing is stronger than faith & hope mrfish. You would make one heck of a "warrior for God", but then, you already know that.
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Originally posted by mrfish
that's just too rich to ignore - i had to bring that back for an encore
maybe we'll chose the righteous path as opposed to our current path which is_______________________?
I'l fill in the blank...obvious.
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Originally posted by lazs2
Its ok apache just remember that it is best to pray for squaddies first... especially those who need it most..
If apache is in heaven I wouldn't mind visiting once in a while... same for rude and probly kieran... probly a lot of nice christian folk will be there. were ever I go tho... bet I meet some pretty interesting folks... been that way so far... don't see why it would change.
lazs
lol, you got it my friend.
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well - then that means the christian doctrine is:
you can't lead a righteous life unless you accept jesus christ and his rules.
any christian care to deny that? if not then doesn't that mean that you believe my life is un-righteous?
and really "i don't want to judge you" as an answer to the above is a cop out
sounds like the case is closed to me :)
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Originally posted by mrfish
well - then that means the christian doctrine is:
you can't lead a righteous life unless you accept jesus christ and his rules.
any christian care to deny that? if not then doesn't that mean that you believe my life is un-righteous?
and really "i don't want to judge you" as an answer to the above is a cop out
sounds like the case is closed to me :)
Un-righteous in the sight of God, you bet ya...as is mine. I'm no less a sinner than you.
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Evasion? Hardly. I have already categorically stated my belief that the only unforgivable sin is denying Jesus. I have made it clear I am not to judge- it simply isn't my place. My religion tells me that believers go to heaven, and those that refuse to accept Christ don't... but I didn't make those rules. I don't place the value.
Here's where I think you blow it in the argument- if you believe Christians are supposed to assign value to you based on what you believe, you have it wrong. The Christians are here to spread the Word, and to work for God's kingdom. That's it. All the other stuff is left up to God.
I wouldn't DARE tell you that you are going to heaven or hell. I don't even know if I will make it, so what in the world would make me believe I can divine who else will go? More than that though... the Bible says "Judge not lest you be judged". We can speak out about a condition that will bring judgement, but pointing to individuals and stating they are damned is wrong.
To me it sounds as if you take it personally that someone expresses belief in God, as if that person will now look at you as something less once it is clear you do not (which is not true). Of course I want you to believe as I do, but that certainly is no more heinous a crime as you wanting me to believe as you do. To take a worldly viewpoint on the issue it is merely a difference of opinion. And, if you choose the worldly viewpoint, it should be no more important to you than what beverage I prefer. I of course will think there is much more at stake, but if you don't believe, why do you care how I feel about it?
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Originally posted by Rude
Just a thought....you might want to stop looking at men and their religion...then and only then will you see the truth.
Rude...I agree with this statement entirely and the problem is that "men" have really screwed up my belief (and others who have posted here) in organised religion...of any sort.
The sheer volume of blood spilled in the name of God is man's doing.
The abuse of children at the hands of priests...again..man's doing.
The legacy of The Vatican and its monetary and political power world-wide...men built it...ran it...and continue to eek money out of the poor in society to maintain it.
I could go on and on...
I say this because the only way I am ever going to see the light is through my own eyes...not the eyes of someone who holds him/herself out to be God's representative on earth. Those people have done more to push me away from religion than my inability to prove or disprove the existance of God ever has.
I respect you for your belief in God..and frankly I am a bit jealous.
Curval
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can non-christians lead a righteous life kieran?
your god gives you the answer, you don't have to make a judgment, you don't have to think mean things- it's written down for you - if you believe in his word then you believe in his conslusions.
he said it was impossible so if you believe what he says then you also believe it's impossible. if you believe it is impossible then you believe i can not lead a righteous life because i don't belive in god.
do you need a scatter chart or a musical accompaniment? how much clearer proof do you need?
one of my greatest aversions to christians is their squeamishness in living with the consequences of their beliefs. you can't think that someone is impossible of leading a righteous life and not be making a moral judgment.
the fact that you think you are a sinner too means nothing - you feel that your sins are redeemed by your faith and thus you are back where you started - the message is "whew, i was a sinner but i found god, maybe someday you will abandon your sinful life and come over."
the message is unquestionably a moral judgment.
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Don't you bandy words like "righteous" and "good" around interchangebly? What specifically do you mean?
If by "righteous" you mean "Godly", as in "perfect", no way anyone can do it- believer or nonbeliever.
If by "good" you mean "decent", as in "doing well to others", then of course people can be good.
What cannot happen is someone living a blameless life, regardless of faith. Every single person is fallible.
And where do you leap to the conclusion I am avoiding my responsibility by not assigning your moral value? By all means, include the charts and music. This attempt to paint believers into this corner you have prepared isn't going to work, because believers aren't supposed to hold nonbelievers in contempt the way you apparently think they should, which I assume is the basis of your resentment.
Salvation is a personal relationship with God- you and God, no one else involved. I can't tell you if you're living well enough for God and can get into heaven. I can only tell you what is written, then it's your ball. I cannot and will not be set up as your (or anyone's) judge.
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Originally posted by Kieran
By all means, include the charts and music.
i'm too lazy to attach anything, but if you like, you can imagine a chart with 'my rightness' along the y-axis and time(t) along the x-axis with y being determined by t^2
and you can hum 'cain't touch this' by our pal reverend hammer for the audio ;)
kidding dude- we'll just have to disagree i guess.
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Hey fish, we're about to do a west coast door knockin, need your address again.
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Thing some people have problems with is the fact that the Bible was written by man for man to explain things that man did not understand. Man wanted to know how he came to being, the Bible answered. Man wanted to know how to act, Bible answered.
So essentially...Christianity is a man-made religion...just like all of them.
Hey...I've even got a little Darwin fish on my car...is that so bad?
If there's a Hell...I'm going to it...as all of us are. Christian souls may go to Heaven, but God will have to fight all the other Hells from all the other religions to keep the soul. Most religions say you go to "Hell" if you don't believe, right?
Expect to go to Heaven, end up in a Jewish Hell. Same token for all other religions...
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Thing some people have problems with is the fact that the Bible was written by man for man to explain things that man did not understand.
Well there may have been a human moving the pen on the paper, but a lot of us believe that the inspiration and truth came from God. We don't have a problem with it.
So essentially...Christianity is a man-made religion...just like all of them.
Well religion, by definition, is man-made. But the truth in the Bible comes from God.
Hey...I've even got a little Darwin fish on my car...is that so bad?
It's not so bad, if not very original. If mocking others' beliefs makes you happy then enjoy.
If there's a Hell...I'm going to it...as all of us are.
Speak for yourself.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Mr Fish has brought up some interesting points concerning the idea of hell being a place of everlasting torment for non-believers.
I did some research and here is what I found out about the subject, as far as what the Bible means when it refers to hell. I will paraphrase, because the subject is too lenghty to post here. This information comes from Aid to Bible Understanding , containing historical, geographical, religous and social facts concerning Bible persons, peoples, places, plant and animal life activities, and so forth.
It seems there has been much confusion and misunderstanding caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to clear up this confusion and misconception.
Sheol refers to a place of unconsciousness in mankind's common grave. Those in Sheol neither praise nor mention God, yet it does not represent a condition of being separated from God. The Scriptures render such a meaning untenable by showing that Sheol is "in front of" him, and that God is in effect "there." (Prov. 15:11; Ps. 139:7, 8; Amos 9:1, 2) For this reason Job, longing to be relieved of his suffering, prayed that he migh go to Sheol and later be remembered by God and called out from Sheol. - Job 14:12-15.
Hades literally means "the unseen place." It refers to the common grave of all mankind, where the dead and buried ones are unseen. It signifies the same as Sheol. Since Hades refers to the common grave of all mankind, a place rather than a condition, Jesus entered within the "gates of Hades" when buried by Joseph of Arimathea. The gates of Hades were opened for Jesus when He was resurrected. The Bible Hades is not the imagined place that the ancient non-Christian Greeks described in their mythologies as a "dark, sunless region within the earth," for there was no resurrection from such mythological underworld.
Jesus Christ associated fire with Gehenna (Matt. 5:22; 18:9; Mark 9:47, 48), as did the disciple James, the only Biblical writer besides Matthew, Mark and Luke to use the word. Some commentators attempt to link such firey characteristics of Gehenna with the burnings of human sacrifices that were carried on prior to Josiah's reign, and, on this basis, hold that Gehenna was used by Jesus as a symbol of everlasting torment. However, since God expressed repugnance for such practice, saying that it was "a thing that I had not commanded, and that had not come up into my heart," (Jer. 7:31; 32:35), it seems most unlikely that God's Son, in discussing divine judgement, would make such idolatrous practice the basis for the symbolic meaning of Gehenna. Jesus used Gehenna as representative of utter destruction resulting from adverse judgement by God, with no resurrection to life as a soul being possible. The symbolism of "the fire is not put out" (Mark 9:47, 48) is not one of torture but , rather, of complete destruction, and is evident from the fact that the Isaiah text dealt, not with persons who were alive, but with the "carcasses of the men that were transgressing" against God.
What I get from this is, we all go to hell when we die. Hell is not a place of everlasting torment, but rather, the common grave of mankind. Jesus was in hell for three days until He was resurrected by God (the Ascension.) God resurrects the dead at some point in time. Those who separate themselves from God remain dead (the second death), but not in a state of everlasting torment. They don't experience pain or pleasure, or anything at all. The resurrected souls are restored to life alongside God.
Many of the modern day misconceptions about hell, come from Dante's Inferno and Milton's Paradise Lost .
Les
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"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matthew 25:46)
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev 20:15)
"And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame." (Luke 16:24)
"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." (Mark 9:48)
"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:" (Revelation 14:10)
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and potatomongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" (Matthew 25:41)
"Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever." (Jude 1:13)
"Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (Matthew 3:12)
"Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire." (Matthew 18:8,9)
And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand." (Rev 21:1)
"Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: [this shall be] the portion of their cup." (Psalms 11:6)
"The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?" (Isaiah 33:14)
"But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:12)
"Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 22:13)
"For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and potatomongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." (Revelation 22:15)
"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30)
"And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 24:51)
"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." (Luke 16:23)
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:11)
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:10
"And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:42)
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6)
"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
"And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds." (Revelation 16:11)
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I agree with you Mr. Fish, there is most definitely a God of wrath.
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the divine is in you
each and every one of you, waiting for you to tire of "life" and go in search of it
its not in the bible or other books, it is in you
stop the noise of your mind and senses long enough and any of you can find it
until then, its all just words and more noise
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its all just words and more noise
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I don't mock religions...I simply like the little fish. I laugh when I see it...if other can't they need to loosen up a bit.
The divine is in me? Well, possibly true...but I'm not going to take the time searching for it. I spent 16 years of my life praying to a "God"...and got nothing material or spiritual. If nothing else...I lost things for it. I believed that "God" could help me, but nothing came of it. I wasn't enlightened, nor was I "saved", so I stopped caring...and gave up...
If it's true people are saved when they believe, am I to believe that murderers and rapists will go to Heaven if they recite the Lord's prayer just before they die?
If that's so, I bet St. Peter has his pants around his ankles right now...
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I don't mock religions...I simply like the little fish. I laugh when I see it...if other can't they need to loosen up a bit.
The "little fish" (the Darwin thingy) is an obvious parody of a christian symbol. To say you laugh at it in the same sentence where you say you don't mock religions, now THAT is funny. :)
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I love chocolate ice cream.
I can't understand why anyone would be so stupid as to think that strawberry ice cream is better.
I hope that one day everyone realizes how much better chocolate ice cream is than strawberry or vanilla or anything else.
In fact, I think the world would be a better place if the only ice cream available was chocolate.
If you don't like chocolate ice cream, it's probably because you've never given chocolate ice cream a chance.
If you did, you would give up that nasty strawberry and vanilla.
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I bet your kids gona grow up to like choclate ice cream also. I wish they would make choclate cigarrets.
:D
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Sand, what if I wanted neopolitan?
[chocolate cigs? eek!]
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Now for a twist, Sand- which side of the religious debate does your analogy refer to? Both? ;)
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I agree with MrFish . If you are a good person but you reject jesus, according to the bible, the god is going to condemn you to hell . That makes the christian god evil in my book, not to mention a hypocrit . The promise of rewards in the afterlife is the ultimate scam, no testimonials from unsatisfied costumers . And it's been around since the beginning of history. It's like the old carnival trick, pay a dollar to see the wonders on the other side of the door, which is actually just an exit .
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more tidbits for the confused on both sides of this coin.....
THIS IS HELL - for the majority of us. some in it worse than others
everything is relative - Enlightenment/Nirvana/Heaven is so far off the jpy/peace/happiness scale as to be unimaginable - a finite mind cannot grasp the infinite
many paths/disciplines for one to choose but the Goal is the same - find one which suits you now and start, don't be so stiff/closed mind not to change if you grow/find a better one later
"Heaven" or "Hell" ain't a place - karma/suffering - tools to shake & wake you up
look at the scripts from that point of view
we are all connected - what you do/think affects me & vise-versa - as we are all One - brothers in the end (scary huh :))
be good now & you won't have to worry about later
not to you but to that spark in each of us which is us which most of us ignore - some call it a Soul
OM
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Originally posted by Eagler
more tidbits for the confused on both sides of this coin.....
THIS IS HELL - for the majority of us. some in it worse than others
The first noble truth of buddha .
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Originally posted by mrfish
just curious - do your eyes roll back in your head when you say all that wafty stuff? do you kinda close your eyes and nod out for a sec?
:p
Well...not quite sure what you meant by that but here is my final word.
God is more than just a belief for me....I have witnessed in my life his love, his grace and his power. I try and share that good news whenever I can.
He loves all of us, not one more than another, but the same. Believer or non-believer, there is no destinction.
There is no free lunch....a price has been paid by God himself for our very souls. We all have a choice.
Now if you are right, then it's a free ride for you and I'm just a fool. I fear the Lord and believe in my heart as well as my mind that he died for for all of us and that he will return to judge this world and to establish his government on this earth. Do I fully understand or know what that will be like...absolutely not, I just believe. I also believe that he loves us and wishes that no one would perish. He is waiting.
Is christianity as the world presents it the truth....on the contrary, it is an embarrassment at best. The very people that Jesus despised the most, were the most religious of that time.
Where does that leave us?
Perhaps some of you are too focused on the penalty rather than the Lords promise....He came not to condemn, but to give us all life and life abundant.
I just want to say to you guys that if life is not what you thought it would be, or problems seem too difficult to solve or no matter what you gain, you remain empty, all that is required by God is to give up. Crazy isn't it? My mom(business executive) raised me to go take what I wanted...she would say,"no one is going to give it to ya boy!"
Did that for the majority of my life and was successful and empty. The world offers nothing wothwhile...and what seems worthwhile at the time, has no permanence.
Am I a saint, void of trouble or problems? No. As a matter of fact, what Gods Word speaks of has happened and continues to happen. Life is harder for me now than it was before I trusted God. I am persecuted for my beliefs, made fun of and am mocked.
The difference is this...I have been given Gods peace which passes understanding....I have the holy spirit within me to guide and help me. It is the gift of God.
Do I get mad and act like a fool....do I treat those around me as God has commanded, loving them, even my enemies? Not all of the time.
But God has sent his Son who stands in my place, bearing witness to the Father in my stead.
A man cannot serve two masters....be it yourself, Buda, money, power or God.
It has been my choice to believe God for all things and it was a personal choice.
Sadly, there is nothing I or anyone else can say to make you see. That step is up to each individual. It is my sincere hope, that you just might step out in faith and believe and trust God in you own lives....you probably have stepped out to the bar or the bedroom or the career, is God no better?
As Jesus said, "those with ears let them hear."
Cyas Up!:)
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Originally posted by mrfish
well - then that means the christian doctrine is:
you can't lead a righteous life unless you accept jesus christ and his rules.
any christian care to deny that? if not then doesn't that mean that you believe my life is un-righteous?
and really "i don't want to judge you" as an answer to the above is a cop out
sounds like the case is closed to me :)
Your life is precious and valuable...God sent his Son to die for you so you might have life. Please try and understand that....it's not about us, it's about God first.
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Originally posted by Curval
Rude...I agree with this statement entirely and the problem is that "men" have really screwed up my belief (and others who have posted here) in organised religion...of any sort.
The sheer volume of blood spilled in the name of God is man's doing.
The abuse of children at the hands of priests...again..man's doing.
The legacy of The Vatican and its monetary and political power world-wide...men built it...ran it...and continue to eek money out of the poor in society to maintain it.
I could go on and on...
I say this because the only way I am ever going to see the light is through my own eyes...not the eyes of someone who holds him/herself out to be God's representative on earth. Those people have done more to push me away from religion than my inability to prove or disprove the existance of God ever has.
I respect you for your belief in God..and frankly I am a bit jealous.
Curval
Guess what...it's free:)
Before I was born again, I still believed there was a God, I was just too busy living for me, all the time. I was first.
My best friend was getting married to this girl and he invited me to go to church with him on a wednesday night....no big deal to me, I had been to church many times and he was my best friend, so I said ok.
I went with him and his future wifey, pretty much as a favor to him, for about 4 weeks.
Now what is hard to explain is that everytime I went, I would start to cry. I didn't know why....I had alot of money....good friends...fancy car and big house....was healthy...all of the things that the world says are good and worthy of our time.
The deep pain I felt and a longing, which I frankly can't explain, remained with me for some time. It would not go away. On top of that, strangers would start talking to me as if they had known me for years and were offering help and prayer for me(not at the church, but at work, play, all over the place).
One night at that little church, I felt an urging to act...I had to make a choice. I went up to the front uninvited and by myself, and gave my life to God. I just told him I was tired of doing it all by myself, and that I needed him...that I realized I had sinned...I asked for forgiveness and accept Jesus Christ as my saviour. At that moment, I was filled with a peace, that I cannot explain. My life has never been the same since.
My advice is to simpy get a Bible and begin reading the New Testament....humble yourself and God will do the rest. Like a friend of mine once said, the words in this book have power....the power to change who you are.
Cyas next year at the con Curval!
:)
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Change who I am? I've tried that...I've been to church before, and it did nothing for me. I never learned anything...and I never gained anything. I won't give my life to a God that I don't know exists. He never answered my prayers...never assisted me spiritually. He wants to piss on me...I'll ignore it and move on.
Yeah...I laugh at Christians, funked, but they're laughing at me...so I feel it's my right to return the favor.
What comes around goes around...I know I'm going to die a horrible death...but I'm ready for it. ;)
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Yeah...I laugh at Christians, funked, but they're laughing at me...so I feel it's my right to return the favor.
To state the obvious, if they are laughing at you they are not being Christian.
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Originally posted by Eagler
the divine is in you
each and every one of you, waiting for you to tire of "life" and go in search of it
its not in the bible or other books, it is in you
stop the noise of your mind and senses long enough and any of you can find it
until then, its all just words and more noise
"If God dwells inside us, like some people say, I sure hope He likes enchiladas, because that's what He's getting!"
SOB
:D
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Originally posted by Kieran
Now for a twist, Sand- which side of the religious debate does your analogy refer to? Both? ;)
I guess that depends on whether I'm selling the ice cream or giving it away. :)
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Originally posted by Samm
It's like the old carnival trick, pay a dollar to see the wonders on the other side of the door, which is actually just an exit .
hehe wow! - that's a great image.
and ps - boddhisatva eagler there, i thought you were a christian what's up with all this west coast tofu soundin' sh++ outta you?
;)
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I whom am the beauty of the green earth,and the white moon among the stars, and the mystery of the waters, and the desire of the heart of man, call unto thy soul. arise and come unto me. For I am the soul of nature, who gives life to the universe. From me all things proceed, and to me all things must return; Let my worship be within the heart that rejoiceth; for behold all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals. And therefore let there be beauty and strength, power and compassion, honor and humility, mirth and reverance within you. And thou who thinkest to seek for me, know thy seeking and yearning shall avail you not unless thou knowest the mystery; that if that which thou seekest thou find not within thee, thy will never find it without. for behold I have been with you from the beggining; and I am that which is attained at the end of desire.
Excerpt from the Charge of the Goddess...a much loved Neo-pagan, Wiccan work.
My T shirt says
Born again Pagan
ElLobo /|\
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The Gods exist alright, and anyone with a bit of patience and some luck can meet them several times a day if they like (although they won't want to, once a month seems about right).
Meetings are incredibly confusing, and not really confined to our common dimension of breadth, depth and height. This leads to intense disorientation and sometimes panic, although most of the time they are good hosts and make efforts to calm you down.
Meetings in antechambers with emissaries are much more leisurely and intelligible, and you are sometimes shown small object of intense beaty and detail, these are your individual joys, hopes given form. Fragile but highly energetic, utterly captivating continually unfolding into themselves.
The nature of God, and the infinite is borne of our ability to self percieve. A mental hall of mirrors spiralling off into infinity.
Infinty, Recursion, Paradox and Self-Reference are all methods of trying to delineate and define a large slippery thing that no-one can grasp. These things are symptoms or by products of some really all encompassing process or fundamental constant.
It's like a star you can't see without *not* looking at it (the really faint ones). Whatever it is, it is somehow involved in God, Conciousness, Life, Language and Culture
Religion is what the particpants make it. But religion is a human activity. Religious people simultaneously Mass Murder and Self Sacrifice, you can't go blaming their gods for that.
Inspiration: Godel Escher Bach: Douglas Hofstadter / The User Illusion: Tor Norretanders / The Origins of Conciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind: Julian Jaynes
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Originally posted by mrfish
It's like the old carnival trick, pay a dollar to see the wonders on the other side of the door, which is actually just an exit
hehe wow! - that's a great image.
Or the other side of the door is just another room, decorated by you for you through your behavior in the previous room
and ps - boddhisatva eagler there, i thought you were a christian what's up with all this west coast tofu soundin' sh++ outta you? ;)
I'm a buddhist, hindu, catholic christian -
I don't believe any one path has an exclusive on Truth
Namaste
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"Namaste" recognizing the devinity within each of us.. Thou art god..I am god..all that groks is god. There is and never has been any seperaton from god, he, she is within us. This is the magical plane, all is sacred. No original sin! Never kicked from the garden! We're still in it if we just look around. Yahweh is an old arabian volcano god that just doesn't fit in my belief system. The bible is for the most part a practical book of rules and beliefs of the ancient Hebrew tribe. Some good things, some bad, read it. Then read all the other holy texts from all over the world. They are all similar, telling similar myths in different ways.
Namaste
ElLobo/|\
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Originally posted by ElLobo
"Namaste" recognizing the devinity within each of us.. Thou art god..I am god..all that groks is god. There is and never has been any seperaton from god, he, she is within us. This is the magical plane, all is sacred. No original sin! Never kicked from the garden! We're still in it if we just look around. Yahweh is an old arabian volcano god that just doesn't fit in my belief system. The bible is for the most part a practical book of rules and beliefs of the ancient Hebrew tribe. Some good things, some bad, read it. Then read all the other holy texts from all over the world. They are all similar, telling similar myths in different ways.
Namaste
ElLobo/|\
They are all similar? I disagree. For example.
Christianity says there is only 1 true, personal God.
Buddhism is pantheistic, that there is no personal God.
Islam says Jesus was merely a prophet and not the only way to God.
I see contradiction, not similarity.
Also, I find it ironic that you state "The bible is for the most part a practical book of rules and beliefs of the ancient Hebrew tribe."
Israel has never accepted Jesus as The Messiah.
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Apache
don't you see the whole pie?
why cut it into slices?
when you split it up, that's when the trouble starts. everyone wants a bigger piece. their piece taste better than the other ones. before you know it you are stuck with the crust and have forgotten what the inside filling even tasted like
I think we are all on the same stage, some just on Act 1 while others are more into it but still the same stage until we get it right .. which I'm afraid ain't anytime soon
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I'm thinking that someone has got Eagler's password...
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
I'm thinking that someone has got Eagler's password...
:)
must be the driving my son's 69 beetle around - turning me into a smoke free hippy
Peace
(http://www.movietshirt.com/images/cool/peacesignl.jpg)
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Groovy. :)