Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Buzzbait on November 11, 2002, 02:05:40 AM
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Salute All
I will leave the Finland setup to the next CT Staffer to create, since it doesn't look like it will be ready for this Friday.
There has been a lot of discussion recently about balance and setups, so I thought I would put some choices for people forward.
Here are three possibilities:
1st Setup
Malta 1941 (uses Sicily/Malta map)
It's December 1941 and Kesselrings Aeroflotte 2 has just been transferred to Sicily with orders to suppress Malta with an eye to a possible invasion.
Axis
109E4
109F4
110C4
Val
Ju88a
C-202
C-47 (limited)
1 Cruiser Fleet (no LVT's enabled)
1 Convoy Fleet (LVT 2's enabled)
Ground Vehicles
MkIV
M8's
M3's
British
Hurricane I
Hurricane II
P-40E (wasn't on Malta, but is a possibility)
Boston
TBM (for British Torpedo bombers)
1 CV Fleet (no LVT's enabled)
Sea Hurricane I's (Hurri I's)
SBD's
Ground Vehicles on Malta
M8's
M3's
Setup #2
Tunisia late 1942 (uses Tunisia Map)
The Germans build up their forces for Rommel's defence of Tunisia and first introduce the Wurger to N Africa.
Axis
109F4
109G2
190A5
110C4
Val
Ju88a
C202
Ground Vehicles
MkIV
M3
M8
Ostwind
British/U.S.
Spit V (no Spit IX, not needed, and not available in '42 in Tunisia)
Hurri IIC
Hurri IID
P-40E
Boston
Lancaster (limited, subbing for B-24)
Ground Vehicles
MkIV
M8
M3
M16
1 CV Fleet
Sea Hurricane II (Hurri IIC)
Martlet (F4f4)
SBD
TBM
Setup #3
Phillipines: late Summer 1944 (uses either Phillipine map or Mindanao Map)
As the U.S. successfully invades at Saipan, 'Bull' Halsey takes his Task Force to conduct airstrikes and soften up the Japanese defences in the Phillipines prior to McArthur's invasion at Leyte gulf later in the year.
U.S.N.
4 CV's
Hellcat
TBM
SBD
3 Cruiser Fleets
Japanese land bases
A6M2
A6M5
Ki61
Val
TBM (for Judy)
Ki67
1 Cruiser Fleet
No land units or LVT's or field capture, this setup will have very high repair times for Japanese fields, so that once down, they are down for week. The USN has the objective of destroying all the active Japanese Airfields with airstrikes.
There will also be long repair times on the USN fleets, so they are not really replaceable if they are sunk.
Comments please!
Express your opinions!
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Setup #3
Phillipines
PTO is long past due.
However, "this setup will have very high repair times for Japanese fields, so that once down, they are down for week. The USN has the objective of destroying all the active Japanese Airfields with airstrikes. " will kill this set-up.
I am a dedicated CTer, and am becoming more and more dedicated to the Axis since they are so often out-numbered. However, if/once all of the Jap front-line bases are down for the rest of the week, so am I, and so is most everyone. I'll fly 25-30 miles for a fight, but if I have to fly 50-60, well... I'd rather go to the MA. I'm too impatient.
To me, the single greatest thing that the CT or any arena can offer to promote fun and numbers, is quick/close action. Tough CVs are a good way to promote this.
eskimo
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Setup #3 sounds great! :D
Otherwise you will never hear the end of the allied whiners SpitIX crying. Here there is only a marginal Corsair whine possibility....
I would reconsider the Japanese down time, what will happend 100% guaranteed is the allies will just CV vulch the coastal bases, and everyone knows that airfields die much more easily than carrier fleets since deacking is such an easy job and USN jabos have such heavy bomb capability- with a long downtime the Japanese will be in a hopless position especially once the FH are destroyed.
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3 please:)
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Originally posted by Buzzbait
Salute All
I will leave the Finland setup to the next CT Staffer to create, since it doesn't look like it will be ready for this Friday.
Three simply because the PTO hasn't been up really in some time, but those other two are smashing and I would take any of these three hapily with only a modest amount of pants wetting.
Sakai
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Originally posted by Sakai
Three simply because the PTO hasn't been up really in some time, but those other two are smashing and I would take any of these three hapily with only a modest amount of pants wetting.
Sakai
Agreed. The Pac lovers have been very patient, and altho' my own preference would be for #2, all three look quite nice. If you do the Pac, consider using the Mindanao map instead of the Philippines.
- oldman
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I like them all, but #3 is definitely overdue.
I'm concerned about the field downtimes as well - the U.S. will probably have a numbers advantage every night, and their jabo-capability is very potent, even without the F4U.
Balance is a very tough thing to achieve in the CT. I appreciate the effort Buzz! 27th Sentai will be there regardless!
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Is there a 1942 Tunisia setup with new skins? :D
If so, I'd like to play in it.
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Salute
Oh yeah, forgot for Setup #3
Could put the FM-2 Wildcat on one of the US Carriers instead of Hellcat.
FM-2's were only assigned to Jeep and Escort Carriers, which didn't travel with Halsey's big TF34 which had all fast ESSEX class CV's.
Not that historical to include it, but would provide some variety.
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Salute
In regards to people being concerned about the Japanese Fields being down and their pilots having to fly a long distance:
I think people are missing the point.
In order to win this Scenario, the USN has to knock down the Japanese fields.
Therefore THEY have to come to the Japanese fields. Once they knock down a field, they have to move onto the next one. Which should bring them in range again. There are no field captures.
The Japanese will have the advantage of the defence, and being able to wait for the USN attackers.
They will also want to launch Strikes on the CV's as well of course.
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Originally posted by Buzzbait
Salute
In regards to people being concerned about the Japanese Fields being down and their pilots having to fly a long distance:
I think people are missing the point.
In order to win this Scenario, the USN has to knock down the Japanese fields.
Therefore THEY have to come to the Japanese fields. Once they knock down a field, they have to move onto the next one. Which should bring them in range again. There are no field captures.
The Japanese will have the advantage of the defence, and being able to wait for the USN attackers.
They will also want to launch Strikes on the CV's as well of course.
Buzzbait, this is a good objective for a scenario, but I don't veiw the CT as a scenario. For the most part, I don't fly in the CT for the big picture (winning the scenario/battle). I fly in the CT because I like historical airwar match-ups. I like the little fights, pretending that I'm Pappy Boyington or Saburo Sakai. When I'm Pappy, I want to fly a big blue hog and blast zeros out of the sky, and when I'm Saburo, I want to terrorize big blue Navy planes with my Zeke. It can be fun to have an overall objective/battle, but not at the expense of killing the little fights, the action, the game.
If I can't kill someone, or get myself killed every 10 minutes or less, I'll go to the MA... every time.
As you have it laid out, This set-up will start out very strong. Folks have been waiting for a PTO set-up for a long time. But once the Allies start killing Jap bases, the fighting in that area will end. It will then start back up at the next two closest bases, or when the next Allied CV nears a Jap base. This will continue until all of the front line Jap bases are dead, and then the CT itself will die for the rest of the week. Very few Allied flyers will want to fly 50+ miles to do a jabo run. Even fewer Jap players will be willing to wait 15 to 20 minutes for Allied pilots to return to the base under attack once they die.
My suggestion:
Use Mindinado.
Give the Allies all 6 CVs. 3 with Hellcats, 1 with hog-1s, 1 with FM-2s, and one with F4Fs. (and all with TBMs and SBDs)
30 minute downtime for CVs is plenty. Sink one and it's prolly out of the picture for the rest of the night. 5k to kill a CV.
1 to 2 hours down time for all base objects is plenty as well
eskimo
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#3 of course.
See sig.
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While Eskimo has some valid concerns, I'd like to #3 a chance. I didn't think the Big Week set up would go over well either, but it generated some great and unique action in the CT. If Mindanao is used, it has enough bases within CV strike range to make the action last quite some time. I would suggest making the objective bases no further than two sectors from a coast line, if you use Mindaland that is. You might also consider upping the ack leathality a bit, to make the Allies job more difficult (at least up to a value of 100% of MA, if not higher), and/or upping hardness of field objects.
Sabre
CT Staff
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Originally posted by Sabre
While Eskimo has some valid concerns, I'd like to #3 a chance. I didn't think the Big Week set up would go over well either, but it generated some great and unique action in the CT. If Mindanao is used, it has enough bases within CV strike range to make the action last quite some time. I would suggest making the objective bases no further than two sectors from a coast line, if you use Mindaland that is. You might also consider upping the ack leathality a bit, to make the Allies job more difficult (at least up to a value of 100% of MA, if not higher), and/or upping hardness of field objects.
Sabre
CT Staff
If this is done, you can make all of the inland bases neutral/3rd country.
eskimo
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And disable ship/shore guns and give both sides PTs. Give the Japs M-16s and M-8s.
eskimo
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41' Malta Please!
..Looks like its going to be late late war pacific though :(
I don't think we ever had an Early Malta scenario period.. at least not since I have been playing in CT/MA
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Salute Cajun
No the setup I listed is a 'Mid' Malta.... ;)
We need the Glad, Swordfish, MC200 and CR42 to have an early Malta.
We also need the STUKA!!!!!
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Salute Eskimo
I don't want to include the Corsair for the reason that it wasn't operating off Carriers at this period in the war.
They arrived in '45 AFAIK.
And the Americans didn't have land bases within range at this point.
Plus the Corsair is just a little TOO fast for the Japanese plane set. You can fly one and never die, just zip around maintaining your energy with those semi-laminar flow wings while you riddle the Ki61's and Zekes with your big ammo load.
I'm gonna stick with the Hellcat and Wildcat FM-2. The F4f4 was not in service at this point with USN front line Squadrons.
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Originally posted by Buzzbait
Salute Cajun
No the setup I listed is a 'Mid' Malta.... ;)
We need the Glad, Swordfish, MC200 and CR42 to have an early Malta.
We also need the STUKA!!!!!
Yeah.. Think u could help me bribe HTC? :D :D
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Dont put Corsairs or F4F or FM2 in this setup. It will then just turn into another US biased planeset where the FM2 tie down the Japanese by turnfighting them while the Corsairs finish them off by BnZ. Having only the Hellcat in there actually means there is some risk to the US side, which scary these CV vulch dweebs, and is why they ask for Corsair and FM2... Plus you yourself said it wasnt historical, and the USN navy wasnt so much full of variety from big CV for a long time having only Hellcats. :)
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As I recall, there were a number of jeep-carrier squadrons participating in the Leyte Gulf operations that operated FM-2's (the "Taffy" fleets). I agree with Buzzbait that the F4U should be left out.
Sabre
CT Staff
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Setup 3 please, but that mid war tunisia looks good for later (the spit V, hurri 2 and p40e setup).
Leave the setup as is, maybe increase flak as stated above.
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Originally posted by ergRTC
Leave the setup as is, maybe increase flak as stated above.
I think the Japanese are allready going to have a hard time with the flack since most battles will very likely involve CVs near Jap bases. As soon as we break 3K, our little glass planes be getting pounded. Is it possible to turn down the flack, but increase the ack at the same time?
Oh, forget it, I'll just fly Allied! :)
eskimo
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Eskimo, all ground/fleet flak and ack are controlled by a single variable for each country, "GroundLethality", or something like that. So we can make all IJN AAA more lethal than all Allied AAA, but we can't make the Allied flak (i.e. puffy-flak) less lethal than the Allied small calibre ack (i.e. laser-ack).
Sabre
CT Staff
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Originally posted by Buzzbait
Salute
Oh yeah, forgot for Setup #3
Could put the FM-2 Wildcat on one of the US Carriers instead of Hellcat.
FM-2's were only assigned to Jeep and Escort Carriers, which didn't travel with Halsey's big TF34 which had all fast ESSEX class CV's.
Not that historical to include it, but would provide some variety.
Want to add variety? Halsey's Task Force was supported by the 5th Air Force flying P-38s, B-25s, A-20s and B-17s. Need specifics?
I can get them for you.
My regards,
Widewing
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Lets see, being CO of VF27 Hellcats ummmm my choice would be ummmmm oh well ill pick 3! Shewwwey that was difficult, and oh ya eskimo dont u dare go runnin off to the ma, or fly allied, that would be down right depressing. I cant even begin to imagine gettin killed by anyone else! Lol
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I say Malta, let them damn VF-27 sailors swim in sand.:D
Actually the PTO set up looks good.
Oh and BTW guys it's been a while since we've had a P-47 in the setups. Instead of the same RAF vs LW Med setups. How about a 1943/44 Itailian set up with some P47s in the mix.
This constant bias against the jug must end!!!!;)
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Originally posted by HiJack
Lets see, being CO of VF27 Hellcats ummmm my choice would be ummmmm oh well ill pick 3! Shewwwey that was difficult, and oh ya eskimo dont u dare go runnin off to the ma, or fly allied, that would be down right depressing. I cant even begin to imagine gettin killed by anyone else! Lol
OK, but only if the CMs turn the fleet ack down so low that I can vulch you guys while your still on the carrier deck?
eskimo
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Ack never bothered you before,hell i think you even killed me in the tower once!
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Salute
Just to clarify:
This is not Leyte Gulf.
It is intended to represent one of the softening up missions which Halsey did during and immediately subsequent to the invasion of Saipan.
Not the great Marianas Turkey shoot, but after that.
AFAIK, there were no land based aircraft, with the exception of multi engined bombers, which could reach the Phillipines.
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Buzzbait just make it Hellcats, IIRC that would be most representative of what was on fleet carriers at the time.
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Originally posted by Buzzbait
Salute
Just to clarify:
This is not Leyte Gulf.
It is intended to represent one of the softening up missions which Halsey did during and immediately subsequent to the invasion of Saipan.
Not the great Marianas Turkey shoot, but after that.
AFAIK, there were no land based aircraft, with the exception of multi engined bombers, which could reach the Phillipines.
The 49th FG flew several escort missions from Biak to Mindanao in September of 1944. They were flying P-38L fighters. Borneo was also a target of the 49th.
My regards,
Widewing
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Salute Widewing
As usual, you are an excellent source of impeccably researched information. Thankyou.
However, with all due respect, I am not going to include the P-38L for two reasons.
1) There are no land bases far enough away on the Mindanao map to accurately simulate the distance which historically was required to fly a P-38L into combat.
2) The P-38L is TOO DAMN GOOD... ;)
Thanks again Buzzbait
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I agree with GRUNHERZ.
Giving the USN both the FM2 and F6F-5 gives the USN the one-two punch against the IJN/IJA. The FM2 can nearly turn with the A6M5b and will out turn the Ki.61-I-KAIc. The F6F-5 is faster than either, and is only threatened at high speed by a diving Ki.61-I-KAIc as the A6M5b can't follow the USN fighters in manuvers at speeds above 300mph.
The F6F-5s will force the Japanese to dodge, the the FM2s will keep them slow while the F6F-5s finish them.
It'd be like giving the US the F6F-5 and the Japanese the A6M5b and the Ki.84-Ia (if we had it). The F6F-5s would get slaughtered because they couldn't run or climb with the Ki.84s and the A6M5s would keep them from living by turn fighting. The whines, justifiably, would be deafening.
Don't predetermine the victor by handing one side an unbeatable (realistically) fighter combination.
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awww.
I am fine with allied having only the f6f.
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Originally posted by Buzzbait
Salute Widewing
As usual, you are an excellent source of impeccably researched information. Thankyou.
However, with all due respect, I am not going to include the P-38L for two reasons.
1) There are no land bases far enough away on the Mindanao map to accurately simulate the distance which historically was required to fly a P-38L into combat.
2) The P-38L is TOO DAMN GOOD... ;)
Thanks again Buzzbait
I can see other problems if the scenario is pre-November. To get to targets in the PI from Biak, the 49th used 310 gallon drop tanks, not modeled in AH. Moreover, they were instructed not to drop the tanks unless absolutely required. This was due to these huge tanks having a tendency to tumble into the booms when released at speeds in excess of 150 mph. This was thought to be caused by the anti-sway braces bending under the stress of aerodynamic loading on the tank. There was also a shortage of the 310 gallon tanks, so bringing them home was a priority.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Karnak
I agree with GRUNHERZ.
Giving the USN both the FM2 and F6F-5 gives the USN the one-two punch against the IJN/IJA. The FM2 can nearly turn with the A6M5b and will out turn the Ki.61-I-KAIc. The F6F-5 is faster than either, and is only threatened at high speed by a diving Ki.61-I-KAIc as the A6M5b can't follow the USN fighters in manuvers at speeds above 300mph.
The F6F-5s will force the Japanese to dodge, the the FM2s will keep them slow while the F6F-5s finish them.
It'd be like giving the US the F6F-5 and the Japanese the A6M5b and the Ki.84-Ia (if we had it). The F6F-5s would get slaughtered because they couldn't run or climb with the Ki.84s and the A6M5s would keep them from living by turn fighting. The whines, justifiably, would be deafening.
Don't predetermine the victor by handing one side an unbeatable (realistically) fighter combination.
We're talking about giving the Allies 1 FM-2 CV, out of 4 or 6.
With only 1 fighter type per CV, the Allies would have to bring a pair of CVs together for this to happen. The mix of fighters would likely happen, but not all the time, and not everywhere at once.
eskimo
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I got an idea.........................
Give the Japs a damn break and just have the F6F for a change.
If you guys havent noticed there are very few Japanese to chase on these setups. Theres even less now with 27th Sentai splintering.:rolleyes:
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Just the Hellcat and one good bomber, well matbe everyother plane in the allied arsensl too, what the hell, just fly what they give ya and do the best you can, but the Hellcat and a good bomber will do.