Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: SFRT - Frenchy on June 07, 2000, 12:33:00 AM
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Ok I'm french but I have no idea who was the leading French ace ...ouch... stop...AIe!... not in the teeth...KAI!...
http://famousamericanaviators.com/Marcel%20Arbert.htm (http://famousamericanaviators.com/Marcel%20Arbert.htm)
Here they say it's Marcel Arbert on a Yak 9 with Russian red star. (hehehe some french AH pilots are dying for it I know).
Oh and at this URL, a german ace displays a gun cam of a HO kill on a B17 in a BF109. He downed it in one pass. So stop crying after German pilots ripping ur buff in one pass in AH. Hey...wait... I hate german planes pilots, why do I help them? Whatever, i'm naturally kind hehehe... yeah right.
http://famousamericanaviators.com/Petzschler%20190.htm (http://famousamericanaviators.com/Petzschler%20190.htm)
Salute fellow pilots! Fear the Niki hihihi. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
http://home.cfl.rr.com/rauns/menu.htm (http://home.cfl.rr.com/rauns/menu.htm)
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Olivier "Frenchy" Raunier
(http://home.cfl.rr.com/rauns/SFRT-AH-LOGO.jpg) www.sfrt.net (http://www.sfrt.net)
[This message has been edited by SFRT - Frenchy (edited 06-07-2000).]
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"hihihi" ???? But......but...........you laugh like Garcimore !!!!!!!!! AHAAAAAAAAAAAA !!!!!!!!!
To press this matter, I am reading a book about the British Bombing campaign on Berlin, and there are many accounts of Buffs going down on one fighter pass...
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy:
Oh and at this URL, a german ace displays a gun cam of a HO kill on a B17 in a BF109. He downed it in one pass. So stop crying after German pilots ripping ur buff in one pass in AH. Hey...wait... I hate german planes pilots, why do I help them? Whatever, i'm naturally kind hehehe... yeah right.
Ohhh niceeee...SO Niceee...so Bf109s DOWNED B17s in frontal passes!! WOW!!!! BECAUSE I DIED AGAIN YESTERDAY IN A 4x20mm Fw190 IN A DAMNED FRONTAL PASS On A B17!!!!!!
FIX THE DAMNED BOMBERS GUNNERY OR DELETE THEM,DAMNIT!
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*cough* I will remind you that when you HO a B17, you are facing 8 .50 cals, plus the fact that when you pass the B17, the gunner can hit you with his tail guns too. So a good idea would be not to HO Buffs.
Also, bear in mind that the Buffs in AH are not set to WWII standards. (thank god (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) )
The ever informing Beefcake
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Yeh, only approach BUFFS from hi angle, best one being his 10 or 2 o clock IMHO.
In the 190, ususally one pass makes him smoking. 109 takes patience *and* good accuracy - gotta land almost all those 150 rounds on target.
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
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Originally posted by Beefcake:
*cough* I will remind you that when you HO a B17, you are facing 8 .50 cals, plus the fact that when you pass the B17, the gunner can hit you with his tail guns too. So a good idea would be not to HO Buffs.
Also, bear in mind that the Buffs in AH are not set to WWII standards. (thank god (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) )
The ever informing Beefcake
This B17,at best, could fire me with 6 guns...most possibly only 4 as I was coming from directly ahead, and higher than him (and if he wants to fire the ball turred to his own plane, better for me). Ball turret couldnt fire and cheek guns,historically, couldnt follow a direct 12 o clock aproaching target well.
So I had 4x20mm and 2x13mm firing at a buff that was answering to me with 4x12.7mm...I got him but he got me too.
SOrry If I find this weird but I do think tha buff gunnery is like a joke.
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Ram;
Learn to fly better... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"If you little boys don't behave I'm going to send you to your rooms without supper!"
John "SUPERFLY" Guytan - Art Director
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Buffs are not that durned hard to shoot down. My shooting stinks to hi heaven but as long as I am not trying to climb up ones 6 they will always leave damaged or as confetti.
tour 4
JimBear has 22 kills and has been killed 4 times against the B-17G.
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Ram my firend, remember that u are in a game (hellllloooo). During WW2 it was rare to find B17's alone but here, for the gaming purpose it's pretty common.
You need to strengthen their parts and guns a bit. And stop whinning Ram, u grounded, eh toc! Hummm, even better, go fly a buff for one whole week and we will see how u changed ur point of view.
When u in a buff and u see a canon plane higher than you, and this things dives, you know that at best you will finish both dead if it's an average pilot. And this is a miserable feeling knowing all the time you waited to climb and proceed to the target.
Just assume that attacking buffs full HO or full 6 (high or low) is not the safest way.
Remember also that guns are more and more deadly when u are closer from ur target, works for the canons and the .50 of the fortress. I hit planes flying toward me several times and they still fly but if I hit them when they zoom by my turret filling my screen, a couple of pings and zip here goes the wing.
When I was starting playing AH, and I was buff hunting in those miserable german machines, I used to fly right to the buff and because of the efficiency of the guns, when I was very close, the buff usually blew off and I was surviving flying thru it. (No debris in AH, boom and you disapear). (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
<mais non Saw, je fais des vers sans en avoir l'air hehehe>
[This message has been edited by SFRT - Frenchy (edited 06-07-2000).]
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RAM, keep in mind that the major change from the B-17F to the B-17G was the addition of the chin turret. This WAS successful in causing the Germans to change their tactics against B-17s. I know that 2 50 cals don't sound like alot, but it was enough to eliminate that as the prefered attack against the B-17.
Sisu
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Thanks Frenchy.
I am reading a book endorsed By Adolph Galland that states that for long while the prefered method By the LW was the Hi 12 ock attack in shwarm ( 4X ). And yes in alot of cases one pass was all was needed. Here is an exerpt about a raid on Muenster on 10 October 1943 by the 8th AF. The 8th sortied a total of 274 B-17's. The bombers were escorted by the 352nd ( a very rookie unit at the time) in P-47's. however Muenster was at the time out of range for the P47s so they couldn t accompany them all the way tothe target. therefore the 56th FG ( Zemke's group) picked up escort on the return home. The raid was a disaster for the Allies though.---
"Attacks alternated between Head-on passes by FW-190s and BF-109s from a number of jagdgruppen and rocket barrages from ME 410s positioned behind the leading wing of Bombers. The fighters broke away broke away briefly when the bombers came within range of the muenster flak defences. After the bomb run, the German fighters resumed their attacks, threatening to wipe out the leading wing completely" It goes on to say that The 56th broke up the attacks. Lt Robert Johnsons AC was badly damaged by a 190 but not before he became an ace that day by shooting down two German fighters.
(http://www.ropescourse.org/cammo.jpg)
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Not tryin to start anything...
BUT!!
1st.. killing a buff w/6 .50's is exceedingly easy.. with cannon's they are fodder. One pass buff kills here are routine.
Succesfull low ammo expenditure attacks on buffs are possible if you concentrate your fire on one area of the buff.. outer wing or tails seem very vulnerable. You'd better have a high crossing angle; and a very high closure speed, or he's gonna get you messed up for sure.. they are tuff to kill; but by no means impossible.
2nd.. I'd take it as a personal favor that if you do not wish to be killed; DON'T BOTHER TAKING OFF. Attacking anything in this sim comes with a significant risk of destruction to yourself; and if you are unwilling to accept those risks; maybe you'd better go fly Microsoft Cessnas for awile.
Seriously.. every time somebody here runs into a task they are not equal too at their current skill level they bark about how 'WRONG' it is, that it's the GAME; not THEM.
Horsecrap. Sick of hearin it.. ask for help; don't just scream at the developers or other players.
Hang (done on soapbox)
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I'm with Hang on this one....I also fly a fair amount of time in buffs, and I think the balance is right.
If the bandit comes in a diving attack than I can't kill him on the pass....if however he dives in but then pulls up to linger at ded 6..than the bandit will get shotdown.
I've attacked buffs from high 12 in a pony and gotten a one pass kill (more often it takes 2 or so passes), and I find that if I come in with speed and a high angle and keep the dive through the run and extend away to re-setup, then the buff can be killed. Patience is the key for getting a clean buff kill.
Ram, if your smokeman post w/screenshots is an example of your normal attack run, then the buff will have a good window to put alot of lead out your way. Try increasing the angle of attack.
Cobra
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
Not tryin to start anything...
BUT!!
1st.. killing a buff w/6 .50's is exceedingly easy.. with cannon's they are fodder. One pass buff kills here are routine.
Hang I can send you a film of me in a P51 doing a perfectly executed attack on a B17, the damned buff endured for 7 SEVEN attacks on him. In each pass I had sound and good hits on the buff's right wing.
The film shows nearly 5 minutes of attack on it. THe bomber had 2 engines gone and was leaking fuel from one wing's tanks. It refused to go down until his (LOL!) tail broke.
If you say that you kill Buffs on one pass, please send me the film...because I need to know how.
BTW after watching the film, my path of approach was from the bomber's high eleven, one of the cheek guns was out and I dont know if with that elevation the chin turret is available.
BTW this is to all who thinks I dont know to attack B17s. Tour4 Kill Stats...23/2 K/D ratio in fw190 versus B17s. I KNOW HOW to attack the damned things. But what happened yesterday still shocks me. A frontal attack should mean death for the buff not for both.
IMHO
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 06-07-2000).]
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LOL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ram;
This will drive you bonkers I stopped trying to figure it all out and just had some fun!
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Horsecrap. Sick of hearin it.. "
Hangtime
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hell in one sortie I took down 3 B17s, with 1 pass each, using only the 4x.50 in me P38 (was outta 20mm)
I'd send ya the film but I kicked meself after I realized the recorder wasn't on as I rtb'ed
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RAM
I can send you film where me 51 kilt a b17 1 pass from hi 6 in dive. Instant death to the b17. All shot concentrated.. Killin b17s with a p51 is an art.
Dog out.
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Possible reasons for requiring multiple passes..
1. Angles/Time on target-- if your angle leaves you with a poor gunnery solution you may not be able to get enuff lead on him. Lead pursuit is the cure; and set up so your deflection angle gives you the most time on target possible while maintaining a constantly changing angle to the buff gunner. Hi-lo passes from the top or sides are my most lethal approaches.
If I'm flying a buff and see a fighter approching fom this direction I immediatly start a turn to ruin his angles solution and get him into a low angle off tail position. Remember there are some buff pilots out there that are VERY savvy at defending themselves.. never assume an easy kill when you see a buff.
2. Trim not neutral or 'g' loading on your plane is forcing high dispersion to the shot. One to two seconds of well aimed fire will put enuff lead onto a tail or wing panel to saw it off.. the trick is in focusing the bullet stream AT CONVERGENCE into the target area. Precisely! No twitchin on the stick; no 'spraying'.. you focus your fire and keep it on the part.. a buff is a BIG target.. if your fire is scattered all over the buff it CAN absorb the damage and keep flying. If you focus your fire in one area the results are spectacular and immediate.
The reason most buffs survive that firstpass is because the attacker is dancing in the buffs defensive fire, unable to focus his own shot. Usually, due to low closure speed on the attackers part, when he DOES stabilise in trim for the shot the gunner will find the right lead and guess what.. buff wins.
3. Rubber Bullets--- we've all had these.. micro warps, poor connex on one party or the other, whatever. If you notice this condition, just relog.
4. I don't want to perpetuate a myth.. but my gun camera is jinxed. If it's on; I die. I'm not superstitious (hang crosses fingers) but I'd rather not tempt the fates. For evidence of one pass kills on buffs from my P51, I'm sure more than a few buff drivers are out there readin this that can attest to the plain truth. A buff is no match for any fighter in this sim if the fighter makes his attacks as described above.
Good luck RAM.. and stay hot!
Hang
"Stop trying to figure it all out and just have some fun!" -Mino-
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 06-07-2000).]
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I almost always get the BUFF on one pass. The trick is in your set-up.
When I shoot I generally initialy aim at center fuselage. At range d1.2 I start shooting way in the lead. As soon as I see hit sprites I try to walk my fire down onto a wing. As I pass below the BUFF often I see many hits sprites. The wing flashes over my head, I check my six to see it come off in a nice V shape.
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Horsecrap. Sick of hearin it.. "
Hangtime
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>To press this matter, I am reading a book
>about the British Bombing campaign >on 'Berlin, and there are many accounts of
>Buffs going down on one fighter pass...
HEheh. Did they then spend months lobbying to have that fighter removed from the war?
Wab
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I do not believe this Sim is modeled correctly. I am having a problem shooting down C47's. I get close (1.9 to 1.7) and pull the trigger but the C47 dosen't go down.
I am having a difficult time finding a reason to fly in this sim because of this! Until this bug is fixed you may not see me flying anymore.
Also I ground looped a F4U last night. I never ground loop!! So this must be another bug!
Thank You!!
Have a Nice Day! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Swager
XO I/JG2~Richthofen~
"Damn.....I can't believe I missed that shot!!!"
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/swager.jpg)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://members.tripod.com/JG2/)
[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 06-07-2000).]
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
I'm sure more than a few buff drivers are out there readin this that can attest to the plain truth. A buff is no match for any fighter in this sim if the fighter makes his attacks as described above.
I know from experance the Hangtime knows his stuff (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) <S> BUT I am getting better at messing up fighter attacks now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) , quite right , turn at just the right time screws them up big time .
BTY , Hangtime , if I see a High Bish P51 now , (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) . I get the loving hell out of Dodge proto .
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air_rules = Play fair ....Don't worry about points......Keep a sense of humor......Drink Jim Beam......and don't let the fediddlein cat walk on the keyboard.......!!!
(http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/1589/airlogo.gif)
air_squadron (http://www.airsquadron.com)
www.sprocketsworld.com #1 internet air start page , plus
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Well, according to the Air Aces Homepage: http://www.cableregina.com/users/magnusfamily/ww2fra.htm (http://www.cableregina.com/users/magnusfamily/ww2fra.htm)
The leading French ace of WWII was Francois Warnier of GC I/5 with 18 kills.
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Lt Col Dune
X.O. 352nd Fighter Group (http://www.352ndfightergroup.com)
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"
"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona
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Heheheh RAM u suck ya dweeb:
Vulcan has 19 kills and has been killed 0 times in the Fw 190A-8 against the B-17G.
(Tour 4 incidentally)
-vlkn- in
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Dune, 'your' site doesn't show the same nb of victories as 'my' site for Marcel. Hum, someone as more infos?
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Very good point here, RAM, fly buffs for a week & I am sure your POV will change...
Buffs are the easiest kills I have, and yes, as Hangtime said, even with my new wonderfull ride, the pony...hey I even took 2 B26's with only 4 .50's yesterday...
3 days ago, I took out 4 B17's in one flight with a FW190 with only 2 20mm guns...
Get on top of him, roll a lot, mess up with his gunning ability and aim for the tail... he's dead meat...
Nothing wrong with the Buffs, IMHO...
Saw
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Remember that it was the *F* model of the B-17 that had a weakness for the HO. The *G* model (what we have) was fitted with the bendix chin turret.
The B-17 was a tough bird. It could take much more damage than a fighter and keep flying. On the other hand, even with just the 2x.50 chin turret firing a fighter is exposing critical parts (engine, pilot, etc.) to a *zero* deflection shot.
Finally, remember that cannon rounds are superficial (although quite distructive (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ). Rounds from the Browning M2 .50 MG hold their kenetic energy well, and go through stuff like engine blocks, armour, and pilots (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
IC
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Not all LW cannon rounds detonated on impact. There was a type deveolped for attacking bombers that detonated when the shell's spin slowed down enough. That usually meant that it penatrated the aircraft's skin before it exploded. This caused a blowing out of the aircraft skin which is bad at 300mph. Also allowed the explosion to effect more internal systems. Like the people.
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Lt Col Dune
X.O. 352nd Fighter Group (http://www.352ndfightergroup.com)
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"
"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona
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Originally posted by Swager:
I do not believe this Sim is modeled correctly. I am having a problem shooting down C47's. I get close (1.9 to 1.7) and pull the trigger but the C47 dosen't go down.
I am having a difficult time finding a reason to fly in this sim because of this! Until this bug is fixed you may not see me flying anymore.
Also I ground looped a F4U last night. I never ground loop!! So this must be another bug!
Thank You!!
Have a Nice Day! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Really? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"I have returned"
Mitzu