Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: LtHans on October 03, 2001, 03:18:00 AM
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Ok, look. I just saw a whole flurry of bomber and anti-bomber posts this last week.
I would like to point out that I beleave the argument that you cannot shoot down bombers like the real life pilots could absolutely DOES NOT hold water.
If you want to use that argument, let me ask you this. Did you fly like the Germans did? Did you attack in groups comming in from different directions simultaneously? Did you take the time to get above your target and dive on it? Did you use any sort of attack pattern other than dead astern? Did it even occur to you that instead of attacking you could shadow the bomber, herd it away from your airbases and call out its postion? These were the standard tactics of the Luftwaffe, and even they failed to stop bombers alot of times.
Did you know the B-17 shot down more German planes than the escort fighters did? Did you know that the Germans have a point scoring system whan awarding kills and counted the 4-engine bombers as four kills?
I personnally beleave that anybody who whines about fighting bombers is to blame for his failure, not the guy who flys the bomber. Let me say it a second time. YOU were flying YOUR fighter. YOU are responsible for winning. If you fail, you did something wrong. I think most whiners are just sore because they thought they knew what they were doing, but I have seen too many idjits do it the wrong way to be convinced there is something wrong with the bombers.
Also, when I attack bombers I do it the SMART way by using the tactics I described above. You know what? When I don't forget my own advice...I win. All the time. No joke. They key to success is cooperation and attacking in groups. If you don't have the pattience for that, then no you won't ever win a high alt buff vs fighter fight.
The only concession I will give is that early warning radar....isn't. I would like to see the radar display when in the control tower (not airborn, just on the ground) show details of the aircraft on screen including altitude, speed and type. That is an area where in real life the airforces had ample time to ready an air defense, but we do not.
Hans.
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why dont you go reread those "anti-buff" threads again then check the scores of those who were the major anti-buffers.
The majority of which never said buffs are to hard or have any problem killing them.
and why rehash it here.
Buffs arent forced to fly "historically" or have anything close to historic bombing procedures. They are by far the minority in Ah.
Please dont "redefine" the arguement based on your misunderstanding of what was said in those other threads.
While you are certainly correct on how the true LW attacked planes it has no relationship to the arguement of buffs in AH.
I'll restate what I believe is the arguement.
buffs have far to great an impact on gameplay in the main.
To get an understanding of that point reread those threads abd maybe you'll understand.
I'm not gonna cut'n'paste the numerous explanations by several different folks so please reread umm.
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Wotan,
Buffs have far to great an impact on gameplay in the main.... IF they are not intercepted!!!!
One could just as well say the same thing about jabos and gvs, but since they fight low, the furballers sometimes intercept them.
If "gameplay" = furballs, move that gameplay to duelling arena.
Buffs are fun to hunt just the way they are at the moment. If they are made easier to kill they wont be flown that much anymore. It would be a pity to lose such targets.
Another point is that buffs never destroy the ability to refuel and rearm. If you stay alive you can keep on furballing close to the attacked base as long as you like. BUT if you only go for suicide HO attacks and get new planes after another... well it will be a problem. It is good that buffs encourage people trying to stay alive this way :)
[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: BlauK ]
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Hans you live in 1950 do you?
The scoring of 4 kills for a four engined bomber was a long defuncted myth. They DID give 4 POINTS!!! towards a promotion to German Luftwaffe pilots that shot down a Buff,and 2 points for a final destruction of a buff. It was a points to promotion award system NOT kills, Ricky Retardo.
A kill = a kill no more no less, the LW had one of the most strict standards in regards to kills compared to other airforces of the time.
So there you go your argument goes down the toejam hole .
No, I don't have a problem with killing buffs since when they're on their bombing run you can sneak up on them and well 190A8+Buff=confeti.
[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: Glasses ]
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One thing that I think is wrong is buffs ability to totally destroy a fighter. Bombers gunners should be able to shoot engine out, pilot kills/wounded, maybe some control surface damage, fuel and fire etc. but not be easily able to saw wings off.
Buff guns are just too stable gun platforms. Maybe little instability to gun sight would do the trick. You know, even if you don't move the sight, it does wonder a little.
Otherwise they are fine, shouldn't be too easy to kill a buff.
Other than that, most stories do tell simple attacks on buffs, killing gunners, shooting engines etc...not some fancy angle attacks and shootin buff wings off.
Also, hiding behind buff rudder was valid tactic, since RL gunners did not shoot thru it. :)
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LtHans, I see what you are trying to say, however it is not applicable to what we are trying to say. The AH bombers are not limited to realistic settings as the fighters are. HTC has implemeted game play concessions for the bombers as they have stated on numerous occassions.
An good example was lastnight. We (rooks) were attacking a field, think it was A29. Even tho the fighter hangars were up, bomber after bomber after bomber kept upping from that field in a defensive posture (in WB we called it ackstarring). Why do you think that is?
In your post you mentioned RL pilots. Do you actually think a real bomber pilot would have taken off to assist in defending a field full of enemy fighters? I don't.
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As for buff defensives:
* I dont mind too much about the gunner range slighty increased. You still have a good chance downing a bomber all by yourself without taking any lethal damage.
* I really would like a restricted field of fire for gunners when crossing their own structures or let em damage themselfs... but no biggie here...
* I DO mind about the ridiculous manouverability of buffs at stratoshperic altitude though!!! Just had a Lancaster outlooping :eek: me at 25k+ yesterday!! Me being in a D9. (I got film - gonna post it and some pics just after I come home); plus the rudder-turn-shoot-you-down-move. B17 seem to turn at high alt without any E-loss. Along with the fact that buffs have pin-point accuracy from infinite alt really promotes alt-monkeying...
Leave the defensive positions alone but fix the FM! :D
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Real life buff gunner kill claims were the wildest exageration of any kill claims.
The AH fluffs are no fun to kill... They are easy enough if you wish to fly a boring flight that is ended by a gamey, nonsense fight that is barely a step above a boxed sim. I kill a lot more of em than kill me... I only bother if there is NOTHING else to kill.. To kill em does take time tho.. that is ok but you don't have time since they can fight and laser bomb at the same time and really... they are on a suicide trip anyway... If you succeed the no talent moron will just come back in 20 minutes and you will be stuck playing HIS gtame all night.... But since you have some talent you will feel like your time is being wasted... There is no such thing as a fluffer feeling his time is wasted since it is all that he can do anyway.
Wotan is correct. they have too much effect on gameplay... blauk... you say you enjoy hunting them? You would make a great baseball fan or... next time I paint the house I'll let you come over and watch it dry.. I kill em easy or one of em kills me with a shot that is made from some gun that is on the other side of the plane. Or because every single gunner act's like worker ants (or ai) slaved to a single queen...
Look... How many people do you see in the arena up there hunting fluffs? Maybe a few who fly for the girley grey and can't kill anything else but that's about it. where are the players? they are fighting between fields. They are not gointg to give up the fun of a fight to go cap at 20k or so in the off chance that some no talent, attention starved, suicide fluff driver may come over and laser bomb a few choice targets and ruin the game for the others.
Why learn any skills in AH if all you have to do to have a huge impact is take a mouse and an hour or so and learn to fluff?
the fluffs have too great an impact on the game. It is a bug and it will get fixed. Wanna bet?
lazs
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Lazs
i wouldnt go as far to call all bombers no talent, ive seen some real good gunner/pilots that can hold there own with about any fighter.
Im bored here at work so i wanted to check it out and see what your :(crying :( about, what i found for last month is that its the fact you cant kill them efficantly, contrary to the over statement of
"I kill a lot more of em than kill me... "
Now if "a lot" is 1 more kill on a b17 than a death buy a B17, then your statement is correct.
Other than that i would stick to the furballing, you got the hang of that for sure (stat wise).
Having bombers adds another angle to the game, with out them you end up with another death match flight sim.
this is my opinion of course, you are intitled to yours. but dont act like yours is the only one that matters, we all pay our fees to play.
The point of this sim is to take feilds, not get kills IMO. furhter more than taking feilds, have fun, the thrill of the hunt. Or the thrill of penetrating enemy lines and flying a bomber group deep in enemy territory, making a hit and making it home.
That is fun, may you be a escort or a buff pilot that is good fun. Personaly i dont fly any bombers often, unless freinds are over playing on a lan in the MA.
I find it much more enjoyable to dive bomb, good way to get the ole heart pumping. :o
[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: Am0n ]
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Yeah, sure. Let's remove bombers and make this game one big giant deathmatch... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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"Let's remove bombers and make this game one big giant deathmatch..."
YES!!!!!
:D
Westy
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"The point of this sim is to take feilds, not get kills IMO."
Wrong.
Taking fields is just one way to promote aircombat. Landgrabbing is an act that causes a reaction that begets the fighting. For it is all about killing and shooting each other down.
You must have AH confused with Age of Empires or some other land conquering strategy game.
Westy
[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]
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Westy
things to note;
"IMO" = In My Opinion (welcome to the internet!!)
that is yours.. A very biased one but none the less your opinion. If your not open to others veiws on somthing you should really just keep yours to your self, no one wants to have a discusion with a one sided-my-ways-the-right-way cynic.
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Of course that was your opinion you posted. All posts regarding what AH is are simply "opinions" unless it's an actual member of HTC that defines what AH is. I posted my opinion of yours being "wrong" in reply. If you're that senstitive that you cannot handle the feed-back then maybe you should limit your responses to email?
Westy
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I dunno but at 30+k (dweeb alt) we (assassins) fired up a bunch of ta's to intercept b17's last night..
I think maybe 3 of the group made it through and the rest we shot down :)
oh.. few fighters too.
overall though I think that alt is crazy.
I can only imagine how long it took those buffs to get to alt.. and it was a long way to fall I'd bet too :)
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amon... as u say "IMO"... yours seems to be that this is a sim with land grab as the most important thing... logic wuld dictate that you were wrong since MOST players are flying fighters when they could be dong a lot more for the whole land grab issue (and a whole lot easier) by simply dropping a few laser guided bombs at "spoiler" targets also...
How did you check my stats? was it for the current tour or overall? don't really care that much but it sure seems that overall I kill a lot more buffs than kill me. If not then I will restate to.... "i kill more buffs than kill me". Truth is.... I don't try very hard... they are simply a lousy target... no fun at all. Very gamey. sometimes I will ded six one or attack with no chance of survival if it is at my alt and close to dropping bombs but I canb usually tell how bored i am by the fact that I'm even attacking a buff.... I bet my stats show that I fight one buff for every couple hundred fighters.
lazs
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amon....LOL! I am at work and bored so I checked your "5 star rating" and found that only one person had voted.... wonder who it was?
lazs
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Westy
The statement "wrong." is in refernce to actual fact, not opinion.
So in a essence you are saying my beliefs are wrong, what i feal is right for me is not..
You my friend are wrong, i do indeed belive what i stated is true, being my opinon makes it correct.
Im done with this argument, you may continue alone.
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Continuing on the topic i think your correct in saying the ones who complain are the ones who dont know the proper way to attack a bomber or bomber group.
I find the most successful attacks made on me when um gunning is the ones who pick and pick at you from different angles. I think the worst thing you can do is try to fly in and take the buff down in one burst, this may work sometimes but general not effective.
Come in and make a snap shot and break away.
The more you hang out at a safe distance and "tease" the gunner the more nervous/impatient and likely he is going to try somehting rash to get you, thus its likely he'll screw up when you finnaly make a pass.
Heck most the time when you sit back 1.5k-2k and dive in and out at them you can get the gunner to burn most (if not all) his ammo before you actualy make a move.
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"what i feal is right for me is not.."
Wrong again. ;) You tried to state WHAT the focus of AH was not what it was for you or what you think it should be.
Westy
[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]
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lol
i dont care about my rating, meaningless.
I checked your stats on the AH web site. Stats dont lie, only people with inferiority complexes do..
Jeesh i even said you had a great fur balling record! just leave the buffs alone. :D
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Can't let this one slide. Lazs is a squaddie after all :)
Am0n, if you are going to use stats, use them all, not just the ones that support your argument.
Just go back a few more tours. Lazs stats just against the B17:
Tour 20 5-4
Tour 19 17-6
Tour 18 13-1
35 kills to 11 deaths. Looks like alot more kills to me.
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Originally posted by Am0n:
"this is my opinion of course, you are intitled to yours...."
The point of this sim is to take feilds, not get kills IMO. furhter more than taking feilds, have fun, the thrill of the hunt. Or the thrill of penetrating enemy lines and flying a bomber group deep in enemy territory, making a hit and making it home.
Originally posted by Westy MOL:
"what i feal is right for me is not.."
Wrong again. ;) You tried to state WHAT the focus of AH was not what it was for you or what you think it should be.
Westy
Hurmm... Read much?
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Apache
you are correct, i shoulda looked back further if i was going to use stats to argue. I was not trying to belittle Lazs, but it just struck me as very odd at first glance to here someone with seemingly so little experience/success fighting bombers make such biased statements about fighting them and there usefulness..
I stand corrected! :cool:
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Apache don't try and confuse the issue with the facts.
My "bad" for I took his "IMO" to be a supportive for the rest of his post backing up what I took for a black and white statment on what AH was supposed to be. My apologies Am0n.
Westy
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I'll have a Vodka and Red Bull.
Oh this isn't the bar? Damnit.
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Westy,
Np at all, this happens when 2 opinionated people like our selves clash. :D
Heres how i look at games, they are art through and through.
With art, if it is truely art and not something you can pick up at Kmart in the home decor section, you can make a broad assumtion at what the artist was trying to portray, or at Kmart you got the "in your face" "this is what it is" painting of barns and old bridges.
Then you got Dali and Van Gogh who created imagry that is very stimulating.
Aces High = The Stary Night (Van Gogh)
Quake3 = Kmart barns and bridges (who gives a rats ass)
What im getting at is in a game like Aces High there is more to it than meets the eye, this is truely a work of art in every manner. They allow you to make your own opinion and work with it on those terms.
to the contrary of other "Art" where you just walk around and point/click, point/click.. few arguments can be made at the meaning of that "art".
lol i hope this makes sense, i got so symbolic that i almost didnt understand what i was saying.. :confused:
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Q3A is as good/fun/artistic/etc as AH, and vice versa.
I also like to put oranges as much as to put apples in what I cook.
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blauk
I used to hunt buffs all the time and agin I've kiled 7 b17s in one sortie no rearm in a 109g6.
Go read those other threads. I've posted several instances where I've killed 6 lancs ib a base they gave up and came back in spits to deack it. I killed them too. And about them time I killed milkrunning buffs ib a city at 3k. The same guys over and over.
Like I told hans go back and reread those threads so you can understand the points that were made there. You like hans are simply make staements that are/were irrelevant to the previous discussions.
Folks before you post a opinion on a subject it would help if you actually read up on what the discussion was about.
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S!
Actually Hans is both right and wrong.
The Germans did not count a 4 engined bomber kill as four kills for kill total purposes, but they did 4 engined bombers as more important as a criteria for awarding medals.
For the purposes of awarding the more important German medals, ie. the Knights Cross of the Iron Cross, the Knights Cross of the Iron Cross with Oakleaves, etc, a four engined bomber counted as much as shooting down 4 other aircraft.
For example, by the end of the war, the Knights Cross of the Iron Cross with Oakleaves normally required 100 victories in the air for it to be awarded. However, a pilot who shot down 25 4 engined bombers would also qualify.
So Hans is correct there.
As far as USAAF bomber crews shooting down more German fighters than USAAF escorts...
Nope.
The Bomber crews put in claims for a lot more German aircraft shot down, but studies after the war showed they were overclaiming at a rate of approximately 10 claims for each actual kill.
The Fighter Jocks were also overclaiming, (all nation's Fighter Pilot's overclaimed) but by a factor of around 1.5-1 or 2-1.
If the Bomber crews claims were accurate, the Luftwaffe Fighter force would have ceased to exist around December '43.
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WRONG Buzzbait! The german He111 and Ju88 DID wipe out the RAF on their first 2 sorties. Them ubermensch made great gunners!
;) ;)
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S!
Also, the Germans did not attack from all directions.
A typical attack happened from ahead and slightly higher than the bombers. (Hence the familar warning shout and Hollywood Movie: "Twelve O'clock High!") This was because the earlier model B-17's did not have a chin turret and were most vulnerable to attacks from the front. The attackers preferred to come in slightly high, because it made the bomber gunners adjust for deflection. The Fighters had much bigger targets so deflection wasn't as much of a problem. The B-17 cockpit was the bullseye aiming point.
The Germans would come in a wave, flying abreast so the maximum number of guns could be brought to bear. Typically there would be around 20-40 German fighters in an attack.
100 yards from the bombers, the fighters would break down and to the side so as to avoid flying right through the formation.
There were a lot of headon collisions due to pilots being killed in the cockpit, or misjudging their closing speed.
One B-17 flew home with a Me109 INSIDE the fuselage. It hit below the cockpit and travelled up the fuselage interior of the bomber before it came to rest.
The Germans would try to reform for another attack. Typically though, if there were escorts present, they were on the Germans at that point and they'd have to fight their way home.
Later in the war the heavily armoured special attack "Sturmbock" 190A8's would attack from the rear.
The Me262's almost always attacked from the rear. Their closing speed was too high for a frontal attack.
They'd come up behind the bomber formation at their level, dive through the escorts to a point below the bombers, then zoom up behind them for a snap shot.