Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Sakai on November 14, 2002, 05:10:22 AM
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Just musing here but . . .
You know, when the A-bomb was introduced into WWII it was the end of the war; it would be the end of AH for myself, too.
It is silly to model a game on WWII air combat with some ancillary points (CVs, Ships, bases, vehicles) then model city killing, society transforming weapons that belong to the next generation of wars and the end of mainstream propeller-driven aircraft for combat purposes.
If you want a game where 163s Chase down B-29s, my god, what kind of asinine stuff is that?
That's not air combat, that's Billy Spaceman and his rocket interceptor.
At that point the game becomes every other shooter out there. What sets WWII AC combat apart is it's attachment to the last vestiges of non nuclear warfare. By the time the A-bomb was dropped, the world had changed. The only excitement comes in being part of the world that has not yet sold out.
The whole "German secret weapon" and tweaks A-through Z thing is so bloody ridiculous, it misses the entire point of the idea of WWII combat, much less air combat. The war's most alluring moments were the undecided portions through late 1943-at most the earliest of 1944. After that the outcome was not in question and it was the inevitable "bludgeon the belligerents into submission" time. Oh, I know there are some who think otherwise, but the game was up in late '43, early '44. The tragedy of WWII was it's being dragged out, almost as tragic as some peope believing in the capacity of the so-called Third Reich to have come out on top "If Only . . . ." Yes Dorothy, just click your heels together three times and say "there's no place like home . . ."
At the point the B-29 and A bomb come into being, when we could have the SM79, He-111, Dewoitine, Il-4, Ki-43, Ki-27, countless Eastern Front variants, and many more setups that actually enmesh one into the war that occurred, I don't know, I can't see it and it would certainly taint the experience for me.
Doesn't anyone really think about these things when they request A-bombs and B29s? Asking for stuff should reflect some thought, not some dream of blasting things apart, but how does the entire society of AH change when such weapons are introduced? The 262 and A234 are already enough laughingstock aberrations, reflecting far more of an impact than they actually had in WWII (as is the Ostwind--get a grip on that ridiculous Ostwind's overbearing impact on the game). Why even have it based on WWII if you are going to skew it into the realm of far-fetched possibilities and away from the probabilities that defined the war? There were two A-bombs used in WWII (count 'em, two). There would be two an hour in AH. It is silliness to even consider, it is the height of frivolity and the end of ideas, hope, and personal impact, all sold wholesale to the weight of brute force, redundancy, and mere machines.
One man in a Gloster was more closely aligned with his machine's capacity, it reflects far more closely a one-to one equilibrium than one man flying an A-Bomb equipped B-29. Think about the relative impact of each person. One with an A-bomb, one with a pair of 7.7s.
Just my dos centavos.
Sakai
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oh, i though this thread was political comment and i was going to agree, instead i find it's about some game or other.....
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it's always fun to watch people complain about things that would never happen.
This is like a post pointing out how stupid if would be for the USA to invade Great Britain.
(if you're looking for political BS, go to the oclub)
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Yes, I have to agree, if the 29 is modeled it will be wtihout the atomic bomb and your complaining sounds like u need to find a WWI flight sim. WWII did have 22,000lbs bombs, 30mmm cannons, 2 nukes, rocket planes, flying bombs, and all this other stuff you consider to be "unessacary in a WWII sim"
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how fast is that 163 going?
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Originally posted by frank3
how fast is that 163 going?
420 at a climb angle of 70 degrees.
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Originally posted by Innominate
it's always fun to watch people complain about things that would never happen.
A snide little man! How quaint!
The complaint is about a mindset more than about the occurrence of any event, really which if you could intuit you might have undertsood. Basically It's about people too stupid to understand what was postulated, people like yourself for example. Given that, perhaps it is a logical disconnect to discuss such issues with guys like you?
Also, note that since the 163 has been identified as being "a done deal" my complaint is about specific ideas, attitudes, and perceptions that are in fact a reality.
Thanks for the attitude and the arrogance, I love it when small mineded little guys get haughty with me, really.
Have a nice day little man!
Sakai
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Well I'll give you a little support. I agree with most of what's said, although the airing of the criticism might be a bit unnecessary. As for the Me163, I've heard it has a MAX 18 minutes of fuel. So it's limitations are serious and will keep it from being the next dweeb plane by far.
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The 163 will be free, and restricted to a small airfield next to HQ. Thats what thier job will be, to intercept bombers trying to hit the HQ.
Don't any if you pay attention? :D
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I have long thought that 1943 or early 1944 was the best time for an air combat game.
That said, HTC isn't going to be adding any nukes so don't get your panties in a bind over it.
Hell, they might not even add the B-29A.
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The 262 and A234 are already enough laughingstock aberrations, reflection far more of an impact than they actually had in WWII
LOL are u kidding your self..cause u aren t kidding me...
Arado..tht thing is basically usless in this game now....
Me 262..how many peopl fly tht??..Very few..no one has patience for it
So your argument about that is null
I welcome the B-29..with a High perk price
And if they did model A- bom wich the B-29 could and did carry and drop..Id be all for it...
Of Course a HUGE price would need to be put on that...200 Bomer perks or so..
Again..2 A- bombs dropping every hour is as ridicoulous as the above quote of your s Sakai
That would no thappen.....oh i guess we do see formations arados and me262 's flying all the time tho ..huh..................Lmfao
And dont say sht about my spelling
lolo
Love BiGB
xoxo
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like i said in another thread...call it the ultimate perk. takes all your perk points to use.makes it the last resort weapon it really was
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Originally posted by buzkill
like i said in another thread...call it the ultimate perk. takes all your perk points to use.makes it the last resort weapon it really was
Just blowing all your perk points wouldn't be a big enough disincentive. Have it take all your perk points and disable your getting perk points for 30 days. That would keep people from using it unless it was really needed.
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now we're getting somewhere...also make you unable to take over bases for say .....10,000 years:p
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Originally posted by BGBMAW
LOL are u kidding your self..cause u aren t kidding me...
That would no thappen.....oh i guess we do see formations arados and me262 's flying all the time tho ..huh..................Lmfao
As noted to Sir Richard Cranium above, it's about the mindset.
I see/hear of an Me262 virtually every day I log on, or at some time during everytime I log on (about 3-5x weekly). So, yes I see them commonly. There have been a few rare occasions where no one has called "262 coming in" and they don't get down to the ground to turn with me in my zeke, but I think we miss the point:
The entire mindset obviates the actuality of 99.999999999999% of WWII aerial combat. Therefore from a strictly probablistic determination, Jets, rocket craft and A-bombs are meaningless and do not warrant inclusion. The impact on an arena of one man relative to the prop craft which actually fought the war, is not capable of being balanced out without added "gamesmanship." That's a losing proposition in the long run and you've proffered no counter to the argument or facts except "you don't believe it" which is nice (don't get me wrong, I'm big on experience as determinant), but somewhat flawed from a dialectic POV.
It makes it something besides a WWII sim when anything like the Ostwind, 262, or B-29 rumbles in and ends the scene in seconds. It is the fact that resources spent on an Arado 234 detracted from the game at all that is the evil, the festering rot on our shiny apple. In fact, your personal opinion makes my point far more than anything else: if they aren't flown, as you opine, why have them anyway? Why waste the modeling resources and impact the concept and facts of WWII aerial combat with their inclusion? Why corrupt with a non event that for all purposes didn't exist in any sense relative to the vast majority of the action? Makes zero sense. Your POV is actually far worse than what I see. So we waste tons of resources modeling a B-29 that no one will fly due to perking when we could have 4 new fighters? Oh yes, that makes sooooooo much sense now! Why didn't we see it before!
I know it's a game, but it is a WWII aerial combat game sparky.
A-bombs are for the offspring of cousins, pony up for em if you like, but I'll stay on the side of the fence that notes that sanity, the entire war in every real sense, and my philosophical postulate are sound.
Sakai
ooo
xxx
and a biiiiiiiiiiigggggg wave!
And don't you dare mention MY spelling.
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Originally posted by Karnak
IHell, they might not even add the B-29A.
It is the idea and it's continued clamor that is the evil.
Sakai
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Originally posted by Innominate
The 163 will be free, and restricted to a small airfield next to HQ. Thats what thier job will be, to intercept bombers trying to hit the HQ.
So we've wasted all the modeling resources on a ride that will see virtually no action?
Oh that does make a ton of sense now! This is excatly what's wrong.
No one wants to fly buffs anyway, so instead of a great MA plane like the ki-84, we have the plane no one flies!
Hey, but then we can say we have it huh? And what's more important after all? Flying planes, or knowing they're out there?
Oh yeah, the logic train is really pulling its weight today.
Sakai
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Sakai..i will only repy to one thing now..I have limited time...
The B-29 would take resources??
Way too easy..they alreeady have the guns modeled..it would be easy to put a b-29 in here....
And you say Buffs arent used anyways??
Dam now i know you are an "idiot"..in a nice way....
just becuase you dont fly bomers you say they are usless..."classic"..I think the Japanerse bomer is usless...
ANd so what u see a or hear a me262 every time you log on...is it doing some MAJOR damage in the game.....HELL no it snot
So why are you so anti -- new planes...O yaa..u want your Rice Ball planes..ohhh ok,,,
I guess thats alright....Would it be alright to have that Jap me 262 version..what ever they called it...
OO OO ooo how about soem of your Cherry blossom - Jet Suicide planes???
ANd to say no one will fly it....you make m esick...it sthe option of using it sweeet.....I love using the perk planes..changes the game up a bit.....Hell i took out my formation of Arados last night..killed the barrks and went home..really fast
LMFAO......\
Love BiGB
xoxo
P.S I hate all of you:)
BRING IN AH SPELL CHECK..o yaa and that rice ball Ki-84..or what ever it is...olol
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What are these... 'bomers'.... you speak of? My command of your Earth language is, how you say..... lacking?
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Originally posted by Sakai
So we've wasted all the modeling resources on a ride that will see virtually no action?
What's this we toejam kemosabe? Oh, you must be the unseen, uncredited ace modeller and programmer that we've been hearing all about. Excellent work, sir; it speaks for itself.
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Originally posted by Sakai
Just my dos centavos.
Sakai
u trying to steal my end note :D:D:D:D LOLOLOL
just my 2¢
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Hrm. I like this idea. This was an idea generator, right?
Fat Man (I like the implosion design better than the gun; much safer) costs 15,000 bomber perks (one for each 2000lb equivilent). When dropped on a target that target is gone and cannot be rebuilt until the map resets.
There are a few people out there with 15,000 fighter perks, this would be an excuse to get that many bomber perks. If your bomber gets shot down by all those Me163s that aren't going to take the chance that lone B29 has a nuke onboard you loose the perks. You can land safely without dropping and keep them if you like, but should the bomb go off you start over. A formation of nuke-equipped B29s will cost 45,000 perks, but since each bomber only carries one bomb and all three drop at once...
So, is an HQ, or an airfield, or anything else worth 15,000 bomber perks to anyone? Probably. Bet we'd see a LOT more bombers being used as people build up their perk points.
Personally I think it'd add a nice sinister overtone to game play. Don't think there's a chance in hell of it ever happening, though.
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:( sakai i hate to say this but he ki-84 entered service in May 1944 with the engine that it was desined to use. The Me-262 was intro duced in july 1944 that is a 2 month diffrence. You say that the Me-262 didn't have a big affect on the War, well i have to say that the Ki-84 had just the same effect on the war. The Me-163 Komet interterd service in Aug 1944 which is just 3 months diffrence. The b-29 entered service in june 1944 and well that is a months differance.
In other words "hey stupid u want a plane that had a huge effect on the war it ain't goin to be the ki-84 that u want so bad"
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y aPuck..i like tht idea,,i do think 15, 000 perks is a bi thi..but i like the perment base destroyed..pretty sweet
How about 2,500 perks for ab om..thtas alot in bomers...
but i like ur ideas..and hell some day it will be here...
and NOD2000...great stats.. Thank u
Love BiGB
xoxo
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Originally posted by BGBMAW
just becuase you dont fly bomers you say they are usless..."classic"..I think the Japanerse bomer is usless...
No one said any of those things, need to read more carefully, need to think a bit before we start that mouth going.
But if you prefer to identify the lodge pole pine family tree that is you'rn, then cuz, you jest git down on that dog and ride it!
Sakai
Bring the B-29 and ABomb and kill common sense, once and for all!
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Originally posted by NOD2000
:( sakai i hate to say this but he ki-84 entered service in May 1944 with the engine that it was desined to use. The Me-262 was intro duced in july 1944 that is a 2 month diffrence. You say that the Me-262 didn't have a big affect on the War, well i have to say that the Ki-84 had just the same effect on the war. The Me-163 Komet interterd service in Aug 1944 which is just 3 months diffrence. The b-29 entered service in june 1944 and well that is a months differance.
In other words "hey stupid u want a plane that had a huge effect on the war it ain't goin to be the ki-84 that u want so bad"
I think we're missing the point here, and I'm sorry did I call you a name? I think not.
Do you really feel the Ki-84 woud unbalance MA play? Take resources for modeling away from planes we "really" need like the Me-163 or the beloved and oft-used B-36? I think that late war Japanese Homeland defense was defined by the Ki-84 and other planes, though I certainly would never ask for the Ki-100 myself because I think that's the Japanese equivalent of the Salamander, Ta-152, etc. The Ki-84 would simply be a fine addition to both scenario/CT use and the MA without being an unbalancing factor.
Likely all Franks were used for something in Japan, not true of all German secret and hyper craft and the potential of a single frank isn't anything when compared to any Jet or Rocket craft or any mega bomber or A-bomb so my comparison is a good one and the criticism, in context of this debate, is misplaced.
I mean, I know your points and understand them, there is nothing wrong with your points in some other discussion, they simply are not relevant to this particular debate.
Since the Frank would not really be more than an agile FW with some less favorable qualities when compared to the 190 (survivability, firepower, high alt performance, diving) then I really can't fathom your argument, your turning on a single point that really is not germane to the debate at hand which is: The A-bomb and it's carriervehicle are over the top and define the next era, not the one that this sim is based upon. And, best of all, the Frank was simply tossed out as an example and your fixating on it is a likely reason for your failure to grasp the larger idea and points proffered.
Now, if your point is "let's ditch all late war craft, at least untill all early craft are built": then I am with you.
Besides, the thread really is about the ridiculously assinine, unthinking, and sophmoric mindset that wants mega weapons. I would argue that until you have the earlier craft--which as noted and not really countered in any meaningful way by you or anyone is the defining aspect of the air war in WWII--fleshed out, making a B-29 is really a ploy for punks, weenies, and sissies who can't aim two 7.7s in a fabric-covered Gladiator.
Now, align yourself where you will (that certainly is your choice and I applaud your use of your agency!), I simply think that common sense, decency, honor and the American way should all be given a more favored hearing than the absolute nonsense of B-36s and A-bombs and that the 234, 163 and it's ilk should be party favors for a hoedown at the local mental institution by comparison to say, Gloster Glads, Cr42s, and such fine and honourable aircraft wherein the impact of a single man relative to all other propellor driven craft is more closely linked to his machine than the aforementioned monstrosities.
Cheers,
Sakai
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Originally posted by Fancy
What's this we toejam kemosabe? Oh, you must be the unseen, uncredited ace modeller and programmer that we've been hearing all about. Excellent work, sir; it speaks for itself.
We as in the community. Of course you and I have wasted nothing, but let's stop the silly, pedantic finger pointing and think in larger terms, can't we?
Sakai
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Originally posted by Chairboy
What are these... 'bomers'.... you speak of? My command of your Earth language is, how you say..... lacking?
Well, BGMaw has confused his stupor with some sort of abstract reasoning that is most characteristic of the finer trailer parks in suburban BFE.
Not uncommon in such places, and certainly not in anyway a remark on his linear genetic code which is to be commended for it's ability to measure straight angles.
Sakai
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Yet another case of someone making the mistake that the MA is a recreation of World War II, when instead all it is is an arena based on World War II aircraft.
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Originally posted by Turbot
Yet another case of someone making the mistake that the MA is a recreation of World War II, when instead all it is is an arena based on World War II aircraft.
Exactly!
If it were about WWII, the A-bomb would at least make some minor sense as would the militarily disastrous and wholly indefensible Me-163 or He-177, but since it is about WWII aircraft, and the idea is to have some sort of playability without "gaming" it to pieces, then all this late war German Iron and A-bomb talk is really quite stupid!
Now, if everyone gets a spaceship, great! Call it "1945 Rocket Wars" but I don't think that "Aces" and A-bombs has anything in common. Do you? Can we have a special "A-Bombs High" arena where B-29s and Me-163s fight it out escorted by 262s and Salamanders? Well of course we can! But don't call it Aces High, call it "Billy the Circus Boy's fantasy land arena for Luftwaffe freaks of nature and idiots that think P-40s and A-Bombs make for a decent gaming situation". That at least makes some intuitive sense, don't you agree?
As noted, a probablistic determination indicates that such planes are meaningless in context of WWII aerial combat. And since it is about WWII planes, and one would assume the combat derived from the creation of a sim about same, then such planes should not be used to divert resources that might model actual airplanes--which the Me-163 was not.
Thanks for pointing these guys back to the core concern.
Sakai
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"let's ditch all late war craft, at least untill all early craft are built":
yah thats basically my point, but also i would think that the planes that are going to be any use in the MA is late (44-45) planes.
I like the system that HTC has in place though. Think about it this way sakai have you noticed that over the last 2-3 versions that we get we get one "MA use plane" and like 4-5 planes that are considered "hanger queens" in the MA. See me and you are in agreement bring on more early war planes and the system that HTC has in place is in our favor.
take for example this version taht is coming out
we are getting
Me-163A-1 Komet = this is that dweeb plane
Tiger-1 = No were near a Ostie it won't harm planes much...
B5N2 Kate = ok this thing has only a back gun as its armerment
we are probably getting another "hanger queen " as the call it in v 1.11
or even look at v1.10
P-40B, P-40E, D3A1, SBD-5, Boston III, A-20G, A6M2, F4F-4, FM2
its all early war planes
v 1.9
Spitfire I, Hurricane I, Bf 109E-4, Bf 110C-4, Bf 110G-2, and Ki-67.
the only thing thats near dweeby in there is the G-2 and thats cuz it has 4x 20mm cannons 2x 30mm cannons
v 1.8
Me-262, Hurricane IIC, Hurricane IID, F4U-1, F4U-4, and Mosquito Mk VI.
and the only dweeb in there is the F4U-4
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Originally posted by NOD2000
yah thats basically my point, but also i would think that the planes that are going to be any use in the MA is late (44-45) planes.
I like the system that HTC has in place though. Think about it this way sakai have you noticed that over the last 2-3 versions that we get we get one "MA use plane" and like 4-5 planes that are considered "hanger queens" in the MA. See me and you are in agreement bring on more early war planes and the system that HTC has in place is in our favor.
Couldn't agree more, and if there is one 163 built for every 4 early war planes then sure, I'm happy as a pig in the proverbial poo pile.
I simply cannot fathom why people would ask for an A-bomb or a B-29 in lieu of new fighters or Buffs that flew across a wider front for longer periods (Il-4, Wellington, Hudson). Society-altering weaponry simply does not bring WWII aerial combat to mind for me.
Sakai
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BLAH BLAH BLAH..sakai
U seem to think that when they bring your "rocket jet bot future planes",,that these are unlimited and every one uses them...
Ya liek we see the furballaof me262' severynight..o yaa i rmeber you always see this...LMFAO
Ill hold bak my true words cause i wil just get kiked out of the BB
but i will quote you again....
No one wants to fly buffs anyway, so instead of a great MA plane like the ki-84, we have the plane no one flies!
Please stand up for what u say??So no one flys buffs?? You are compltly wrong and un top of that ...well you fill in the blank swith a demeaning duragatory comment:) Dam we should ban you from speeaking again with that remark..Im love buffs...and cant wai tti shhot you down....
I will leave an open invitation ..I will DUEL YOU ANY TIME ..u pick what ever plane you want..Ill fly B-17....and I will Kill u good...
Do you have a good reason for not allowing full war planes?? O yaa u want all the Old war planes in first??..Thx God you arent running HTC!!
its is very nice to be able to pick a VARIETY of planes to choose from.....and yes some planes may need perk points to fly..example(B-29...)
and when you start mixing in ..me163 and you say B-36.. thats a load of crap...one plane saw atual combat ion ww2..1 did not..so please try no to stray form the real world
AND GOOOOOO A-BOMB!!!!!!!!!!!!! 1,000 bomer Perks...!!!
(just think Sakai,,since you cant bom w/ a toejam..all you need to do is fly 100 goon misions and drop drunks)!!!!you too can have a aAbomb....bu tdont worry..im sure you will crash into trees at end of rnwy in b-29..lololollololol
Love BiGB
xoxo
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Originally posted by BGBMAW
U seem to think that when they bring your "rocket jet bot future planes
Of course there are one or two people who routinely fly Buffs and I myself try them out time and again, but compared to say Air Warrior? No, not in any real sense are buffs (outside of the A-20 and the little attack planes like the TBM or such items) flown. Every person that I know who did fly buffs has dropped out or, like Flo, has gone to GVs.
Now, if you go to teh CT, which is an ideal setting, you see many, many more bomber sorties than you do in the MA. Half the enemy I saw last night were bombers, so if you like bombing you should get on my bandwagon.
I see Heavies and Meds about, I'd say, 2% to perhaps as much at rare times when my squad ups in Ju88s 30% (for that one run) as much as I did in AW. If you feel that equates to some real "usage", then sure. Since we're speaking of larger concepts than just your personal ride of choice, I'd ask you to look outside your perspective and know that gaming the product excessivley to counter rockret planes, B-29s and A-bombs would end this product for me and a great many others. It's the idea of aerial combat that is intoxicating to us (and this would include bombing, ship to shore and CV to CV action, strafing ground targets, etc.) and A-bombs have nothing to do with that, nothing. Again, they are society-transforming weapons. Try to place that in the context of the small Aces High arena.
I can almost see an argument for the B-29, they made a ton of them, but rocket planes like the Me-163? It was a disaster (killed many of its pilots, had little or no success), why waste the resources on modeling it? Because we don't want an aerial combat game? Right, I know you don't, I simply don't see why if you don't want an aerial combat game you don't play somethig else?
You see the point, and thanks for the duel challenge, I am sure you would shoot me down, I've never professed to be a good or even average pilot. I'm sure you're an excellent pilot and I look forward to seeing you up some time.
Sakai
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ahh Salute Sakai..didn no claim to be EXcellent pilot..but i aam good..and in buffing ..and gunning in buffs..im at the top..
anyways..that does not matter..
I ABSOLUTLY LOVE dogfights..so i m down for ftr vs ftr...But if you nevr go to attak large buff formations in ur lttle ftr..you haven experinced tru heart pumping...in the TOD's..i have had some of my best -And worst times...
Sheer Terror..and Fast paced fighting..too Extrem bordem for an hour not seeing 1 nme....
My heart rate incresed one day whil fighting ibn TOD..1 life to live sets all different level of flying
But i still dont undrstand why u are so against new planes ..ones you dont like....If it flew in combat ion WW2...then bring it....yes some may need perks ..some dont..but dotn use your personnel feelings to judge what should and shouldn tbe in AH...
Hopefully..and ill pray..AH will still be here..in 10 years..this game will have almost everydam plane that flew in ww2 available fo rus to fly when ever we want....from your Fairway Swordfish too the B-29.Super Deathstar!!!
Love BiGB
xoxo
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A-Bomb would be a kewl "Evil Con" mission though...:cool:
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By the way BigB, your spelling, as well as your grammar, is atrocious ;)
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heheheh :)
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johnny..you forget his breath too. One addition to Innominate's post---Komet had 18 min fuel (presumeably NO throttle as it was a rocket, and not a jet)---the scale in AH would give it like 5 min fuel? 18 min quite a long time