Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: MaddDog on November 14, 2002, 08:46:32 PM
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What id really like to see in the next release is an axis heavy bomber for the germans, currently in AH as far as bombing the axis is screwed. So for people like my self i enjoy flying some of the allied bombers but we really need an axis heavy bomber!......this isnt a complaint its just stating my opinion im sure there are gonna be afew who disagree.:D
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He177A-5 for the Germans:
(http://www.d-b.ne.jp/t-key/world/luft/he177.jpg)
13,000lb bomb load.
Two MG 151/20 20mm cannons
Four MG 131 13mm machine guns
One MG 81J 7.92mm machine gun
Max speed: 295mph
Inital climb: 850ft/minute
H8K2 for the Japanese:
(http://www.warbirds.nu/photo/H8K2/ki11.jpg)
6,600lb bomb load.
Five Type 99 Model 1 20mm cannons
Seven Type 97 7.7mm machine guns
Max speed: 282mph
Inital climb: 1,500ft/minute
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Clearly the only choices, worth consideration in the Heavy Axis catagory, the only other choice would be the P 108, but with so few made....
IMO the Emily would add the most to the game and open up a whole new aspect to online gaming.
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Brady,
I'm curious, what aspect of gameplay would the Emily or PBY add? I don't see either one surviving 5 minutes in the MA. The payload isn't very large, they weren't used for troop transport, they are virtually defenseless.
So,
Honestly what role is there?
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The "Emily" is most definately NOT "virtually defenceless"
J_A_B
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DOA the Lancaster is a soft bellied defense too, either high and defensless from upper slashes, or low and slow with 303s only to defend from high speed runs.
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F4UDOA,
The Emily is not defenseless. Se Mitsu's "Emily Data" thread. It is nearly as fast as the B-17G, carries a larger payload and climbs very much faster.
I don't know that it would add any new aspects to the game, but it would give the Japanese a bomber with a real war load.
BTW, the H8K4-L was a troop transport. It carried 64 soldiers (not paratroopers {so far as I know the Japanese never used paratroopers}).
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Maybe the Heinkel, but got no idea why people would want Pby's or the H8K. As F4UDOA said what would you even use them for? Buggered if I would want to bob around in water hoping for a pick-up.
Did the japs even use the H8K for level bombing...does it even have a bomb site suitable for level bombing?- (sounds like an answer Mitsu would know).
Would prefer a B-29 for a heavy bomber in the MA
Tronsky
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the emily is a great plane - definitly the best of it's genre, however it did not carry nearly a third of what the B-17 could.
Max payload for the B-17 was 9400 kg, i've never read of emily carrying more than 2200 kg...emily had an advantage of ~1400 miles over the B-17 in the range category and possibly in the area of toughness & defenssive armament as well...one would assume that, since emily could carry so much fuel, that it could not fully load the fuel and take on more bombs instead, but i have not read about this happening anywhere...less than 200 Emilys were built and nobody had yet mentioned the Piaggio P.108 (also less than 200 built) which is so similar to the B-17 that it would probably not be worth modeling - He177 would not be complete w/out it's special weapons
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tronski,
Yes, the H8K2 was used for level bombing.
They didn't build a huge number of them so there weren't mass raids, but I have read of one raid by H8K2s on Perth.
There was also a plan to fly 15 or so over to the Gulf of Mexico and meet up with a suppy U-Boat. The U-Boat suppy ship would then fuel them and arm them to attack the industrial cities in the US. They'd then return to the U-Boat to repeat the process as many times as possible. Hitler was apparently quite enthusiastic about the plan, but the war situation changed and it never happened.
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Well the Emily is very well defended, she had extinsive armor plating for equipment and crew,The first operational sortie by the Emily was an atack on Peral Harbor, wheair they did drop their bombs but cloud cover hid the target and they hit nothing, the Emily is considered the best of it's type out of all flying boats of WW2.She could cary 8 551 pound bombs, or 16 132pound bombs, or two torpedos,five 20mm canons and several 7.7mm mg's, aprox 167 were built.
The big thing she would do for AH is add a new diminshion, watter landing or basing, they could spawn like pt's in the water off bases, from tenders, or even from V bases by the water or port's, thus adding a new tool to defend or attack with, ya she is big and slow by fighter standards and lets face what buf is realy not just easy meat for a fighter, howeaver this one has 5 20mm cannons:), she sports a usefull bomb load, as usefull as the A20G's, and is torpedo capable.
Karnak the Japanese did use paratroppers operationaly during the war on several ocashions.
Now in all fairness I must point out that the Coranado had a considerable bombload.
IMO the only two flying boats worth modeling are the Emily and the Coranado, all others are so weakly defended or pack such a small payload as to be pointless/worthless.
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Originally posted by Karnak
He177A-5 for the Germans:
If I remember the LW built up two large 'ish groups of 117's for strategic use against Russian manufacturing East of the Urals......
However in mid 44 the front line had been pushed too far back to use them and the 177's were squandered (suffering heavy attrition)in medium and low level attacks on Russian Logistics in the belorussia and the Ukraine.
I can understand and sympathise with the wish to maintain some balance of origin country..........
However the Heavy bomber that had very significant actual use in WWII but is actually missing from AH is the Liberator.
Then again a long range Sea plane that can spawn and refuel at ports would be a very welcome new addition.............
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b36
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From,
http://www.strategyplanet.com/commandos/h8k2.html
Official designation: Kawanishi H8K2
Allied code name designation: Emily
Type: long-range maritime reconnaissance flying-boat
Manufacturer: Kawanishi Kokuki K.K.
Production: 167
Engine: four Mitsubishi MK4Q Kasei 22 fourteen-cylinder air-cooled radial engines
Horsepower: 1,850 per engine
Crew: 10
Weight Empty (lbs): 40,521 (18,370 kg) Max Take-off Weight (lbs): 71,650 (32,500 kg)
Length: 92ft 4in (28.15 m) Height: 30ft (9.15 m)
Wingspan: 124ft 8in (38 m)
Fusalage Covering: N/A
Cruising Speed (mph): 184 mph (295 km/h) at 16,405
Maximum Speed (mph): 290 mph (465 km/h) at 16,405
Range (miles): 4,445 (6,440 km) Service Ceiling: 29,035 ft (8,760 m)
Armament: one 20-mm Type 99 Model 1 cannon in bow, dorsal and tail turrets
one 20-mm Type 99 Model 1 cannon in beam hatches
one 7.7-mm Type 92 machine-gun in nose, ventral, port and starboard positions
Racks under inner wings for: two 1,764 lb. (800 kg) or eight 550 lb. (250 kg) bombs
History: World War II was the great age of the military flying boat, producing famous aircraft such as the American PBY and the British Sunderland. The Japanese provided their own major contribution to the art in the form of the Kawanishi H8K Type 2 flying boat. The H8K flying boat was conceived in 1938 as a replacement for the Kawanishi H6K / Type 97 (later known as "Mavis" to the Allies), which represented an earlier generation of flying boat design. The Japanese Navy wanted a flying boat that was 30% faster, had 50% greater range, and better defensive capability. The result was a clean, high-wing monoplane design. It was designed for use as a reconnaisance aircraft, bomber, torpedo plane, or antisubmarine aircraft. The H8K was built by Kawanishi Kokuki Kabushiki Kaisha (The Kawanishi Aircraft Company Limited), established in November 1928 with its factory being located at Naruo Mukogun Hyogoken near Kobe. During the war it built four types of sea planes, two very large planes and two small fighters. It also built a land based derivative of one of the fighters.
The first prototype H8K1 made its maiden flight in Jan. 1941 and proved to be unstable on the water and prone to "porpoising". Many changes were made to improve its seaworthiness, including an 11% increase in the depth of the hull. The second and third prototypes (which used the same engine configuration) incorporated further hull improvements, and the third prototype was fitted with an enlarged vertical stabilizer. The engineers worked the bugs out, and the type was formally put into production in 1941 under the designation H8K1 Type 2 Model 11. The 18th H8K flying boat was built with uprated Kasei 22 engines, each offering 1,850 horsepower, and was given the new designation H8K2 Type 2 Model 12. The H8K2 added armor protection for fuel tanks as well as crew and a surface search radar system. The Allies gave the H8K the codename "Emily", in accordance with the doctrine that gave Japanese fighters male names and other types female names. However, the H8K's good armor protection and heavy defensive armament made it a nasty customer to tackle, and some Allied pilots called it the "flying porcupine".
Work had also been proceeding on a transport variant of the H8K. The first prototype was modified for this role and was fitted with the Kasei 22 engines, and was given the designation H9K1-L. It was followed by 36 similar H8K2-L transports, built between 1943 and 1945. The transport version was named "Seiku" ("Calm Sky"), and had accommodations for 29 to 64 passengers. Two experimental variants of the H8K were built as well, but not put into production. The H8K3 was a modified late-production H8K2 that featured retractable wingtip floats and a retractable dorsal turret. Two H8K3s were built. They were later reengined with more powerful Kasei 25b engines and redesignated H8K4. Production of the H8K declined in the last year of the war, as the Japanese material situation became increasingly desperate, and priority was given to the production of fighters for the defense of the home islands. The end of the war put a final stop to the manufacture of this impressive aircraft. A total of 167 H8Ks were completed in all.
Features: The Kawanishi H8K1 "Emily" flying boat is universally recognised as the finest flying boat of World War II. It possessed excellent flight performance for its class, and was remarkably seaworthy and was mostly used for bombing and reconnaissance purposes and sometimes transport. It was also well able to take punishment and dish it out in air combat, and as such was treated with respect by Allied fighter pilots. The prototype was originally intended to have retractable floats, but these were abandoned in favor of fixed floats to save weight before the prototype was completed on 31 December, 1940. This initial prototype was designated H8K1. It was powered by four 1,530 HP Mitsubishi MK4A Kasei ("Mars") 11 engines, a 14-cylinder radial design based on Pratt & Whitney technology. The plane was huge with a wingspan of almost 125 feet and a length of over 92 feet. Compare those dimensions and power plants to the British Short Sunderland flying boat and the Boeing B-17E Flying Fortress which had wingspans of almost 115 feet and over 103 feet respectively. Both of these were also powered by four 1,200 hp engines.
The 'Emily' was a high-wing aircraft with a deep, stepped fuselage; four radial engines were fitted in the wings and the aircraft had large, fixed stabilizing floats. The improved H8k2 had upgraded engines, fully protected fuel tanks, armor protection for the crew, and surface search RADAR. The H8K2-L Seiku (Clear Sky) was a transport variant that could be configured to carry up to sixty-four passengers. The experimental H8k3 variant had retractable wing-tip floats and a retractable dorsal gun turret.
Service Record: Given the Allied code name 'Emily', the plane made its first serious combat operational debut in an attack on Oahu, Hawaii, on the night of March 4-5, 1942 - the second attack on Pearl Harbor ( Operation K). The three H8K1s involved were based in the Marshall Islands, which were roughly 3,700 kilometers (2,000 nautical miles) from the island of Oahu. This was beyond the round-trip range even of the H8K1, and so the flying boats were refueled by submarine at a waypoint. However, on arrival at the target, the aircraft found it socked in with heavy clouds, and had to call off the attack.
The Kawanishi H8K1 was also responsible for three attacks on Townsville in Queensland Australia in late July 1942. On the night of 25/26 July two Kawanishis bombed Townsville port but the bombs fell wide of the mark and landed on mudflats. The planes, W-45 and W-46, were not intercepted and no anti-aircraft guns fired on them. On 27 July one Kawanishi was attacked a it flew over Townsville and it dropped seven of its eight bombs on the Many Peaks Range. This aircraft was W-46. The third and last raid was on the night of 27-28 July when two Kawanishis (W-37 and W-47) left their base (I am not sure where this was yet) but W-37 had engine problems and turned around. The remaining place continued and was attacked by Bell P-38 Aerocobras between Magnetic Island and the mainland. The Japanese plane dropped its bombs and they hit the mud below (one remained in the plane). During the attack by two Aerocobras, the bomb fell out of the bomb bay and hit the ground destroying a palm tree. Cannon fire from the fighters exploded in the rear gunner's compartment. The planes continued their attack until they ran out of ammunition. The Kawanishi made it safely back to base.
Additional info,
* Production: A total of 167 H8Ks were built by Kawanishi Kokuki K.K. in their Naruo and Konan plants as follows:
o 1 H8K1 prototype (Dec 1940)
o 2 H8K1 pre-production aircraft (1941)
o 14 H8K1 production aircraft (1941-42)
o 112 H8K2 production aircraft (1943-45)
o 2 H8K3 prototypes (1944)
o (2) H8K4 prototypes modified from H8K3 frames (1945)
o 36 H8K2-L production aircraft (1943-45)
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MiloMorai,
If you really want data on the H8K "Emily", look no farther than this board. Mitsu supplied a tremendous ammount of data in this thread:
H8K2 Emily Information (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60283)
brady,
The H8K2 could also carry two 1,500kg (3,306lb) bombs. One under each wing.
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Count on the He-111, or Do-17 as the next axis buff being added. I am sure it will see considerable usage in the events and scenarios. :rolleyes:
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Karnak, already have that info.:)
Was only posted here for quick general info for the 'Emily', for others so they did not have to go looking for Mitsu's info.
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There was also a plan to fly 15 or so over to the Gulf of Mexico and meet up with a suppy U-Boat. The U-Boat suppy ship would then fuel them and arm them to attack the industrial cities in the US. They'd then return to the U-Boat to repeat the process as many times as possible. Hitler was apparently quite enthusiastic about the plan, but the war situation changed and it never happened.
Lucky for Hitler he never tried it. You've never seen "small arms fire" until you try flying over / invading Texas. :D
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He177 killed more Germans than Allies, it's a rotten plane. Germans had no good large bombers.
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Originally posted by brady
Clearly the only choices, worth consideration in the Heavy Axis catagory, the only other choice would be the P 108, but with so few made....
IMO the Emily would add the most to the game and open up a whole new aspect to online gaming.
Yes, but then, the few 108s that flew were used for bombing, anti shipping, etc. over the course of their useful life. I really can't see how it is that any reasonable being would say "well, the 177 was a plane worth having but the P108 wasn't." If the 108 isn't worth having, neither is the 177. Both countries devotion to both planes is about the same if you look at their manufacture of aircraft. In fact, given the Itais resources and their place in the war, I'd say the P108 actually represents a far more serious commitment than did the 177. Considering that Italy had a viable heavy bomber in 1941 that by all accounts was a splendid plane and the Germans were still watching theirs burn on the Runways in 1944 and Heinkel himself said it sucked as built. . . . .
Really, if you want to play fantasy ride 5000, ask for the P108, at least then you would have an Axis heavy that served in the early stages of the war. The 177 is an "if only they had" plane.
The Emily, while also built in small numbers, does add a dimension to the game as Brady correctly notes. Also, the Emily is representative of a class of aircraft for its nation (in a way that the He177 simply is not). In WWII there were flying boats and floatplanes in the stores of all the Belligerents and they were widely used. German heavy bomber use was basically nil. The Emily, in contrast to the woeful 177, was an excellent design that was actually used within its specifications. People also forget that the mighty Em could carry a load of troops and that would fill a neat need for the MA as well. Flying boats could carry:
Bombs
Supplies
Troops
Torpedoes
They would be extremely useful.
The Do217 is a better ride for Germany, 16 500 lb bombs or 8 1,000 lbrs. That's no piss ant bomber and it really flew and wasn't called "The Reich's Lighter" by aircrews or "That cursed 177" by its designer. The Do217 would also be far more available for CT and scenario use, having served over a far longer period of the war. The 177A5 as noted is the only 177 that burned in small enough numbers to actually get some off the ground. It came out in what, mid '44? So it was available for the death throes of the Reich and wasn't used as intended?
That does scream for modeling to the detriment of all the other planes that actually flew and fought, doesn't it?
The stuka is far more important as is the Henschel 123, the He111 and the Ju52 for representing the German war machine as configured through the parts of the war where the luftwaffe was a viable offensive threat--something that ceased in 1943--and those years worth flying in the CT.
Sakai
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Originally posted by bioconscripter
He177 killed more Germans than Allies, it's a rotten plane. Germans had no good large bombers.
you are repeating myths about the he-177 im afraid.If you actually read up more and more on the he177 you would know that the engine fires were common but avoidable and that eventually there were modifications which severely reduced their incidence.I have a book written by a german test pilot which describes the he177 several times and often remarks on the many false impressions about it.It was a good handleing aircraft.This LW pilot also flies all the captured allied bombers and describes their good and bad points.
For one thing he describes the B26 marauder as an excellent fast attack bomber but that it is a tough plane to fly.High landing speeds and high wingloading as well as a very sensitive CG ballancing act necessary to avoid poor flying affects.he describes how the fuel had to be ballanced just right to avoid tail heavy flying and it being tricky to maintain the correct incidence whilst trimming for cruise.
What people are doing on these BB's is taking a few well known facts about planes and simply deciding that they alone make the aircraft a failure and useless.When in truth many aircraft had bad points but still did the job.
What we dont realise in AH is that the germans were way ahead of us in terms of auto pilot management of their engines and we dont have to maintain a 10th of the maintainance and adjustments the real allied pilots had to do.
The LW test pilot does mention however that the German insistance on removing much of the adjustments from the pilots and onto computer controled auto devices meant longer development etc and he describes how the allies method of using manual control may have taxed the pilots more but it allowed them to produce their aircraft much more quickly.So even the LW pilots admit that their technically advanced method just wasnt the way to go in an attrition war.
Unfortunately with everything on all planes being auto like in AH we never really see the benefit of those early computer controlled devices.(examples: bomb fuse selectors, Gun selectors, auto pilot computers that control mixture and prop pitch automatically as throttles increased etc etc)
it gets real annoying to constantly read the same thing said about the he177 as a method to dismiss it as a possible AH plane.
When in reality with no spontanious engine fires modeled in AH the he177 would be a superb aircraft and btw even if they were modelled it doesnt mean it happened every flight!.The he177 (in AH ) would be good for sure, at least as good as the b17 anyway.
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Originally posted by hazed-
you are repeating myths . . .
you would know that the engine fires were common but avoidable and that eventually there were modifications which severely reduced their incidence. . . .
I have a book written by a german test pilot which describes the he177 . . .
Several things worth commenting on there:
As you note, the plane did in fact have serious engine fires, serious enough that it could not fulfill it's mission on any scale (as late as 1944 177A5 missions were scrapped or basically meaningless due to engine failures) that approaches actual contribution to the war effort. Those were "allegedly" overcome (in test situations) but honestly, since the plane was scrapped before it saw meaningful combat (and low level attack raids with cannon-equipped 177s are not the same as carrying 12k of bombs for 2500 miles so saying those planes used in low level attacks would in fact have succesfully bombed is assuming a very great deal) how would you or anyone really know? I am quite sure it did provide a few raids on industry in Russia (well, at least one I have read about years back but that might have been Junkers planes), but not many.
Everything the "test pilot" said about the B26 was known by the Allies and widely reported amongst Allied aircrews, yet the 26 flew in combat and was used throughout the war having the lowest loss rate of any US bomber. So on paper it was problematic but in use it was superb. This is precisely the opposite of the 177's experience.
Test pilot data is interesting but equating that to the Battlefield is precisely why this entire debate is so much, uhhhm, marfi. It is at times meaningless in light of the experience in combat. If the plane never flew in combat successfully excepting one or two raids and never was used on any scale or provided any meaningful contribution to warrant its 6-7 year devleopment, then what is the point? The 177 A5 is "alleged" to have been a better plane but the project was so fraught with difficulties that no one cared by the time they "allegedly" ironed them all out. Heinkel himslef continued to try to sell a 4 engine bird after being ordered to stop: that is, he knew the twin nacelle design sucked and I feel he may have known almost as much about his plane as we here do so I ascribe more weight to his ruminations on the subject.
Hey, test data and incidental reports list the P-39 as superior to the Me109. Do you believe it? There is a revisionist desire to see the 177 as something it simply was not. I agree that had it been a different plane, it would have been a different plane, but wishing and saying so does not make it so.
If it is modeled, I hope single bullets to the oil pan send it straight to hell in flames because no one believes that monstrosity could fly without a perfectly in balance oil supply which had zero margin for error in maintenance.
Now, if the 177 is modeled to quell the hue and cry and a sneeze will shoot it down, guess what? Everyone will say "Well, can't we have the Do217 then since it didn't suck?" So why not skip point B, go past "Go", collect 200.00 and model a plane that while not stellar, was at least workmanlike and serviceable and had a terrific bomb load?
Sakai
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Originally posted by Sakai
Now, if the 177 is modeled to quell the hue and cry and a sneeze will shoot it down, guess what? Everyone will say "Well, can't we have the Do217 then since it didn't suck?" So why not skip point B, go past "Go", collect 200.00 and model a plane that while not stellar, was at least workmanlike and serviceable and had a terrific bomb load?
I rather prefer the Ju188A-2. It is better than the Do217, and more reliable than the He177.
That said, Hazed is right in saying that none of the He177 quirks would make it into AH as AH doesn't model that stuff.
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Originally posted by Karnak
I rather prefer the Ju188A-2. It is better than the Do217, and more reliable than the He177.
That said, Hazed is right in saying that none of the He177 quirks would make it into AH as AH doesn't model that stuff.
Not entirely accurate: The loss of oil in a plane sends it down eventually, the 177 would not sustain any hits to anything that was associated with coolant. That makes it far more vulnerable to enemy fire, or to put it another way, it would have to be modeled as fragile.
If it is fragile, and it never did anything in the war, why have it? A "Heavy" that dies instantly, what's the point? See a Greif limping home trailing smoke? Highly doubtful. So really, it's a suicide bomber and we want a plane that never did anything in the MA so guys can suicide out in German Iron?
I think that's a waste of modeling and I agree that the Ju188 is a great plane and it or the Do-217 represent a class of german planes "light heavies" kind of that we don't have: more payload than the mediums they built but not true 4-engine heavies. The 188 was mostly configured for recon duties though some did bomb and (like every other German plane do everything else at some point) as I recall.
Sakai
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Originally posted by F4UDOA
Brady,
I'm curious, what aspect of gameplay would the Emily or PBY add? I don't see either one surviving 5 minutes in the MA. The payload isn't very large, they weren't used for troop transport, they are virtually defenseless.
So,
Honestly what role is there?
"Hello, I am Emily, come up and meet my 5 20MM cannons....for starters!"
defenseless...not!
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in the He177 did the two engines in each nacle share plumbing? or if you knocked out the oil to one would the other keep turning?
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Originally posted by Sakai
Several things worth commenting on there:
If it is modeled, I hope single bullets to the oil pan send it straight to hell in flames because no one believes that monstrosity could fly without a perfectly in balance oil supply which had zero margin for error in maintenance.
Sakai
So, Sakai, tell us how you're REALLY thinking :)
Perhaps due to its limited numbers in WW2 we can offer it as a perked ride, and if it's as good as is was reportred to be, on paper, there shouldn't be any fear in flying it, yes?
Personally, I won't blow perks on a flying propane tank with a payload, but that's just my opinoion, I could be wrong.
Gainsie
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fortunatly you dont have to worry as long as htc doesnt go the 2 side (axis vs allies) route
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
So, Sakai, tell us how you're REALLY thinking :)
Perhaps due to its limited numbers in WW2 we can offer it as a perked ride, and if it's as good as is was reportred to be, on paper, there shouldn't be any fear in flying it, yes?
Personally, I won't blow perks on a flying propane tank with a payload, but that's just my opinoion, I could be wrong.
Gainsie
No need to perk it. There should though, it seems, be some semblance of the actual war we are refighting. The Germans never had a reliable heavy, never. They did have some fine "heavy Mediums" that one could model. Model those.
Sakai
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Piaggio P.108B (http://home.gci.net/~adler/P108.html)
BOMBLOAD: 7,700 LBS (3,500 KG)