Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Mickey1992 on November 14, 2002, 09:03:17 PM
-
There was a thread not too long ago, that I now can not find, that asked where all of the bombers have gone.
Tonight, after a week away while on vacation, I log in and up a formation of B26. I climb to 9K and calibrate for my bombing run. I make my drop, and a Corsair climbs up my 6 from below. When he is about 800 yards, he climbs and opens fire on my lead bomber. I let him have it and take off one of his wings, but not before he shoots the tail off my lead bomber. As he goes down, I switch to the pilot's seat and bail.
I am jumped into the next bomber, and the tail comes off. I bail again.
I am jumped into the last bomber, and my tail comes off. No one else is within 2K of me.
I have no problem with the new bomber calibration system. I have a problem with the bomber formation damage system that is still bugged after 4 months and 7 patches.
No more bombers for me. Ahhhhh.....I feel much better now. :D
-
Yep.. bombers have a tendancy to die very easy lately, even to .50s.
The other day, I shot a formation of B17s with about 100 rounds total. two of them exploded.
It's far too easy for a single fighter to destroy all 3 bombers in a formation... ON A SINGLE PASS...
HTC didn't make bomber formations for guys who like to fly bombers, they made them to allow fighter guys to pad their scores.
-
Originally posted by Midnight
HTC didn't make bomber formations for guys who like to fly bombers, they made them to allow fighter guys to pad their scores.
Such investigative journalism. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
-
Originally posted by moose
Such investigative journalism. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
It's completly true.
Furballers complained about bomber pilots hurting thier furballs, so we got the new bombsight, and formations. Bombers were changed from damage-dealing aircraft to lawn vandals. Now they pretty much have to fly at fighter-happy altitudes, straight and level for extended periods of time, with a very large chance of doing no damage. If the lead buff in a formation is killed just before or during the bombing run, you can count on missing by a large margin.
The formation damage bugs only make it worse.
-
It's false, like other things put in HT's mouth, he said himself he saw the difference between "guys that just want to furball, guys that want to bomb stuff, guys that want to grab bases, " etc.
If the MA wasn't brain washed into constant lemming mass quaking... If only AH had the size and detail of what WWIIOL[edit]'s terrains[/edit] sounds like, with our physics models, and correct dispersion of battles and players, maybe it would be better. Hopefully the mission arena does at least this much.
If players would have innate sense of automatic strategic organisation instead, there wouldn't be need for HTC to force a mission arena.
And just like fighter planes, bombers need to wing up; to the difference that they are bigger and more attractive targets, which both solves the bombing problem (if any, considering it's not that hard to make correct calibration) and the "defenselesness" by putting bombers like they were meant to be, in large boxes of 5+ ships. Just like it's off subject to say the interceptors of the game can't stall fight with the little A6M etc mosquitoes, by design.
-
Moot, you're giving the average gamer too much credit. The average gamer doesn't care about anything except getting that kill. Many of them are mediocre pilots at best, where getting a single kill before going down is a good flight. Most of them couldn't care less about the war as a whole. Wether because they don't understand it or simply don't care depends on the player. But remember, when someone says "average(or often casual) gamer" what they mean is "idiot". This effect is very visible in most objective based FPS games.
Nobody wants to fly a bomber because outside of HQ attacks and CV sinking, there isn't a single reason to.
Yes a fleet of four or five people in buff formations can do a lot of damage. But you can count on half of them hitting nothing, you can also count on it taking 20minutes to get to target. You can put those same four or five people into p38s, p51s, tiffies, or , and do the same amount of effective damage, in MUCH less time, with much more reliability, then hang around and cap.
-
I completed a successful bomb run with a formation of B26's a couple of nights ago. Even fought off a couple of fighters and sustained no damage (that I could see). Everything seemed to be going fine as I flared for touchdown with both drones slightly behind and above me over the runway. Unexpectedly they both blew up. Was the last straw for me, no more buffs for a while.
-
That's a bit like predicting no one will want to fly anything but 163s because only they will reduce time-to-furball to a few seconds from takeoff; it's unlikely there will be something like this, airstart out of thin air at altitude for example, for bombers.
So it's always been a given that the bomber pilot is to expect climbout time, but not that they should have to use an impossible bomb aiming gizmo or a2a defense setup. So, reading the instructions (or not, you can just follow the ones in the bombsight HUD) and not going alone is common sense, at least because that's historical and therefore necessary as per the plane's design and mission.
The average gamer doesn't care about anything except getting that kill and that oversight of his makes strategic organisation among players disappear, which is why probably HTC has no choice, to put some WWII shape into the online arena, but to themselves force a guiding automated gameplay structure that at least mimics WWII strategic warfare without taking away the possibility to just blow toejam up. There will be a place to be for each gamer wanting to game their way, without stepping on each others' respective gaming and still avoid the chaos of average gamers gaming as only viable/survivable solution.
-
I used to fly bombers a lot. I really enjoyed winging up with a couple of m8s and going on a bombing mission deep into enemy territory. Had some great battles with fighters. Loved trying to nurse a damaged bomber home. Also when in fighters my favorite thing to do was go buff hunting with a 109 or some other historical bomber killer. It took skill and good luck to get a bomber kill.
Since the introduction of the bomber formations and the new bombsight calibration system however, I've completly given up on bombers, don't think I've flown 1 bomber mission this tour. they just aren' fun. It seems like most feel the same way as there are very few bombers in the arena and its useless to go buff hunting as there are no buffs.
I feel 1 pilot 1 plane is the way to go, no drones! I really like the calibration system and it works fairly well, but the bombers as they are are pretty much useless.
-
Maybe we will get an updated damage model soon.
I would like to see a buff kill as hard work.
I would also like it to be able to aim at stuff and hit waht i aimed.
What i mean is gunner position on a buff. Like in real war take out the rear and lower gunner and u can pick the buff piece by piece.
With the current ddamage model it seems to me like u aim at the tail and the wing fell off.
-
You already can take out each gun position in a Bomber. The buff Pilot can go to that gun, but he can't fire it. But because the Pilot in that gun position is comanding the remainding guns in the drones, so you don't know excatly what gun is destroyed.
But yes, I think too that the buffs are too weak now.
Sailor
-
Yesterday it took me six (6) passes *hitting* with mk108 30mm on a single B17 to take one of it down. Firing cannon only, I saw the hit sprites.
Maybe I should switch to .50's after all...
-
Bombers, hmm.
As soon as you get one up it's like flies around toejame, every fighter within range comes after you regardless of what their initial mission or aim was, as soon as you knock em down, they just re-roll from nearest field and come after you again, unless you are hitting strats behind your own lines you don't stand much chance of surviving and landing.
And what's with this .50's and 20mm taking out tanks ? pathetic, unless you hit them with at least 250 pounds on the head or with a full rocket load they should be damn near invincible to aircraft.
Ah well, back to work
wipass
-
Originally posted by Saintaw
Yesterday it took me six (6) passes *hitting* with mk108 30mm on a single B17 to take one of it down. Firing cannon only, I saw the hit sprites.
Maybe I should switch to .50's after all...
OR maybe you should learn how to aim. :cool:
-
*Slap* I said I SAW the hit sprites!
If you would be man enough to ********tuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut********* you would have heard my whining on Squad Vox last night :D
off to work now...
-
Sure u can take out gun positions. But that more a random thing than u can AIM for it.
I would like to see that damge model updatet.
-
To this day I still don't use the formations. I took them up for a few in the beginning and didn't like them so I still use my Lanc all alone. I think just maybe someday I will be bored and up a formation of Lancs and fly to 35k and maybe bomb Bish HQ, then go to Knight HQ with my 4k bombs, then go to Knight HQ and bomb that with my remaining bombs:D Other than that, I doubt I will use formations untill some of the problems are fixed, which im sure HT has planned for 1.11.
Booky
-
You're supposed to punch a hole with concentrated impacts, not spread them all over. B26s will take one 108 hit in the wingtip and 5-8/9 of them in the center fuselage respectively to die off. B17s about the same or more and lancasters the same to almost double amout.
Normally what you hit is what you damage so unless there is a small hit bubble or a large hardness setting the gunner positions should be killable like any other parts.
And if you don't want to see flies don't fly near them or within their reach; if you linger, don't be surprised, it's like wiggling red meat above a doberman's nose.
The damage bug that magically transfer one bomber's damage to the next one in the formation is an annoyance.
The bish in akdesert made a ~20kft B17 strike from A1 that was intercepted, but in the middle of 10-15+ enemy planes only the single formations were attacked, no one managed to kill any of those that stuck to the tight 5 ship box.
-
Well I have given up bombing altogether after 4 years of almost exclusive bombing here and in AW.... at least for now, and then I will see what the next update brings. It just wasn't worth the effort of climbing and flying to an enemy target, to have very little success in hitting it, or to be shot down not once but three times on the way there. I've always been a pretty good gunner, too, but it seems the bombers are just so fragile against the fighters.
Recently, I've taken to flying goons..... at least I've had more success with dropping troops!
-
Originally posted by moot
The bish in akdesert made a ~20kft B17 strike from A1 that was intercepted, but in the middle of 10-15+ enemy planes only the single formations were attacked, no one managed to kill any of those that stuck to the tight 5 ship box.
Im willing that this strike did next to no damage.
I remember a lanc strike not too long ago, we had a dozen lanc formations, with escort fighters and flew over an enemy field. We carpetbombed the whole field, and when we left, the radar was out, fuel was at 100, and nothing else was hurt.
-
I havent flown a bomber since the bombsight calibration thing went into effect. Not because of its difficulty i just havnt made time to assign the buttons on my saitek. Maybe this weekend who knows.
I do have to say something has to change soon. The one thing that bugs me is the kamakaze, 300ft, divebombing, furballing bombers that play the game. I guess that if the flight model allows people who like to game will exploit it.
My guess is the new arena forthcoming will probably be more what I am looking for (and then some). I am hoping that it will bring back my enjoyment levels of about 1.5 years ago. Lately the onetime simulation is now completely a gamey game gamer, quake festival. Maybe the influx of a crapload of newbies and experienced gamers from Air Warrior and FA, etc. have warrented it.
Please note that this is not a bash on All newbies and AW refugees. I am sure alot of them share my opinion on what they want out of there 15 bucks per month is more of a sim with a purpose. Thats is why I am holding hope on the new Mission arena.
Bombers ? Aww crap I didnt mean to hijack the thread sorry....
-
Using bombers in AH is a no no as Mickeys post reports. Lazs *did* get his way after all.
-
It's an annoying bug that will hopefully be fixed in the next version of perhaps bombers wil lgo the same way they are in WB and be 2nd class citizens seems bombers fall very easily these days and don't have the defensive firepower they had before.
I've all but stopped playing AH except for squad nights and events. The MA quake mentality has become extremely tiresome and myself and my squad have cut our flying hours right down to just squad nights while we wait for the mission arena.
Having said then when we do fly we still enjoy ourselves and regularly put up long range missions to strike strat targets despite the futility of it. The last few weeks have seen some great fun flying pretty realistic looking missions with B17's or Lanc's escorted by Allied planes and strangely we often get attacked by only Axis fighters in recent weeks apart from the odd P51 or La7 which serves to increase the immersion a little more. If there are any bombers jocks on Sunday around 8PM GMT we will be flying again for Bishops.
-
so how about just flying a single bomber until the 'bug' is fixed?
or were the bombers 'neutered' when the formations were implemented ?
(I dunno because I rarely, if ever, fly them)
-
Originally posted by Pollock
I do have to say something has to change soon. The one thing that bugs me is the kamakaze, 300ft, divebombing, furballing bombers that play the game. I guess that if the flight model allows people who like to game will exploit it.
This would decrease drasticly if it wasn't by far the fastest, most effective way to fly a bomber.
The choice between divebombing, and a 50/50 chance of hitting is no choice at all.
-
rip... I allways get my way.. I am beloved by all.
lazs
-
It is true the higher you go the more difficult it is to be accurate. However the Bombsight does work - even from over 30k alt.
I note these points:
It is a hell of a time commitment to fly a bomber successfully. Maybe the time commitment/enjoyment ratio is getting upside down here, even for the experienced player.
Bombers have always been a place where new players start out and learn to fly. In this respect HTC is trying what has never been done. Bombers are no longer entry level, but an advanced level of play. Adding to new player frustration level can't be a good thing.
There seem to be a few bugs in the code:
The formations do seem to transfer damage - for example the same guns die at same time on all three planes.
When gunning from a formation the aim just doesn't seem right. I find I am many times more accurate gunning from a single bomber.
-
does gun convergence come into play on formations of bombers ?
-
Originally posted by moose
Such investigative journalism. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Don't take what I said the wrong way, Moose.
My comment was totally sarcastic to say the least. BOmber formations are a great addition to this game, as is the site calibration routine.
However, like many other new introductions to this game, HTC has a great deal of work to get it fine tuned.
1. Killing multiple bombers (making them explode) on one fighter pass should be an extreme rare occurance. The current situational norm is that a single cannon-armed fighter can kill or severely damage an entire formation of heavy bombers within 15 seconds. HTC knows this, and hopefully is working on a solution.
2. When the lead bomber is shot down by loosing a wing, there is a HUGE lag warp effect on the drones and where they end up once the pilot finally bails out. Rather than the remaining bombers maintaining level flight, they start to dive with the wreckage of the leader and then warp back to a different position. HTC knows this, and hopefully is working on a solution.
3. The current bombsite has no aeronautical or mathmatical information available. A major improvement could be made if HTC added a few items...
A. Air speed indicator
B. Bombsite angle (looking straight down could be 0 degrees, and anything forward view could be + degrees. (I.e. +10, +15, +45, etc.)
By adding info to the bombsite, the experiened bomber pilot would be able to "guestimate" the calibration based on his bomber's speed, altitude, bombsite angle and target altitude.
4. As stated by HTC, targets for bombers will become cities and factories that will become more populated with killable targets. Right now, pin-point bombing is nearly impossible, requiring larger salvos to get target hits. This results in a lot more wasted bombs hitting empty space. Hopefully we will see the larger target areas for 1.11.
5. As requested by many, it would be nice if HTC added a formation spread command (.spread xxx) so the pilot could make his bombers spread out slightly before dropping bombs, allowing greater area of coverage.
And I stand by my sarcastic remark if HTC doesn't make any changes. Last tour, the only plane I shot down more than the P-51D was the B-17G with the spitIX in a distant third. <<-- how could a P-51D (my main ride) be able to kill so many bombers? Answer: They are too easy to kill and make a good score padding device.
-
I thought I saw posted somewhere that you could change which aircraft you were sitting in without bailing out of the first..
I.E.
one could change to the 'next' bomber without having that incredible lag between planes that lets fighters blast you to bits before you can reorient.
??
-
I miss more credible blast radius, and damage to rnwys ---> Craters.
And what Midnight say about Norden.
Cheers
-
No need to bail at all.... transfer is automatic. As the lead buff is destroyed the pilot is transported to the second until that one is destroyed then on to the third. Ctrl-2 and Ctrl-3 can be used by a gunner to jump to one of the drones at any time, allowing the pilot of the lead buff to gun his own aircraft.
-
Flossy, the bug in question is that damage carries over to the next airframe even though it wasn't hit.
-
Originally posted by Wlfgng
or were the bombers 'neutered' when the formations were implemented?
The scatter introduced in 1.10 makes it more of a crapshoot; combined with the problems some people have getting the sight to calibrate properly, the bomb scatter can move impact points outside the effective blast radius. Scatter, like the difficulty of calibrating the sight accurately, increases with altitude, adding to the incentive to fly lower.
-
you can wlfgng just map the keys. The guys bail out to switch planes are the easiets to kill.
If 1 bomber is engaged say the lead bomber then jumping to the left or right bomber to fire at him keeps you gun trained longer and if and when the center bomber goes down you will already be in a gun position for a follow up attack.
The bail to change bombers is what causes the warps as th 2 drones get strung out with 1 tumbling in. When you bail the bomber you end up in goes to the lead. It seems to "jump" and the other drone does the same.
I rarely fly bombers but I have - = \ set to
- left
= center
\ right
One of my hat switches is set to gunner positions
This may or may not be a factor in damage transfers from 1 bomber to the other. By bailing it may not send the necessary update and then damage gets transferred. Someone needs to check it.
-
One more thing:
If you are able to kill a formation that quick, unless it is because the numbers are largely in proportion of the interceptors, then the gunning player just isn't up to par. Hard to blame HTC or the FM/DM then.
-
My squad (SkyKnights) flies B17s about 50% of the time. I would agree that the damage bugs are VERY frustrating and I hope they are being addressed along with the drones following the crippled lead buff like a couple of lemmings. If you have calibrated perfectly, and the lead buff (which will always be the target) drags the drones down, lowering altitude and increasing speed, your calibration is screwed when you are materialized into buff number two.
Most of our pilots have become proficient in the calibration process but I feel there are several inconsistencies that remain in the code. For example, I've experienced bomb runs where I have calibrated and the hits were several yards short. If I come back for a second pass from the exact opposite direction, after another good calibration, the drop will be long... and that is UNDER the wind layer. :confused:
A current speed indicator AND a calibration speed indicator in the bomb site view would be a step in the right direction. If there was at least SOMETHING to let you know you were off in the calibration. I watch the DROP ALT and current ALT numbers very closely.
I don't know about the bombers really being "softer"... I know there are a lot of dumb pilots who insist on "walking the six" on a B17 which only ends up padding our gunner scores... to those of you ... keep up the good work :D However, I always get excited when I see an FW or 109 setting up at high 3 or 9 o'clock... then I know I'm in for a fun fight!
-
Originally posted by moot
One more thing:
If you are able to kill a formation that quick, unless it is because the numbers are largely in proportion of the interceptors, then the gunning player just isn't up to par. Hard to blame HTC or the FM/DM then.
The issue raised in my post was the frustration over the bugged bomber formation damage model where damage inflicted on the lead bomber is then inherited to the second (and sometimes third) bomber when the pilot bails out of the first one.
A single fighter has more than once destroyed my entire formation in one pass as a result of this bug.
-
In that case I agree.
-
I agree too..
I also think that NOT waiting for the auto-plane-change to happen and moving to an undamaged buff prior to losing the one you're in would help avoid some of the problems associated with flying a bomb group.
-
I discussed a way to make the bomber role more "interesting" in this thread. Might be worth revisiting?
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=62264
David "StracCop"
113th Lucky Strikes
(A Knight Squadron)
http://www.113th.org/
-
While we're at it. The .salvo command isn't very intuitive in buff formation either. If i'm in formation and type .salvo 1 I only expect 1 bomb to drop, not three.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Flossy, the bug in question is that damage carries over to the next airframe even though it wasn't hit.
Not disputing that.... was just sayin' (tm) :)
-
I don't really see it as feasible to switch A/C while under attack. Your in tail gun plane 1, your firing, the bandits firing, you take some hits. Switching planes will disrupt your fire, giving the bandit more time to kill you. Plus, in the time it takes to switch gun spots, he's moved, still firing, you've stopped firing, and now have to reacquire your firing solution. You might as well just give him whatever plane he's aiming at, and start from another one. So every bandit gets a free kill! Woohooo!!!!. Let's hope you don't get jumped by more than 2 before target.
In my mind, you stay in the plane your in, until it's dead. It's not our fault the moronic drones follow the lead flight into a death roll. It's the code. The drones should stay straight and level.