Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Pepe on November 15, 2002, 02:48:47 AM
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One of the most widespread miths of AH is that Rookland lacks on "strat" thinking, while Knits and specially Bish are more aware of this aspect of the game.
Well, I have to say that this concept is, to put it mildly, absolute BS. Being in the Bucket for a long time and on the receiving end of both sides' sticks, I can judge now.
Bish "Strategy" limits itself to overwhelming raids of Tiffies or Ponys, raiding contiguous fields with no deep penetration or disrupting the frontline whatsoever. Sheer and boring numbers power with little intelligence (let alone ability) in it.
For instance (and the pattern is been repeated despite terrain change) during the 4 hours I've been online yesterday in NDISLES terrain, they just jumped from base to base following the same pattern. Launch a 30ish Tiffy or Pony run to the nearest base. Ill-hearted attempt of a jabo run failing miserably to close FH's and even VH most of the times. 50% of lemming attack wave killed on their first pass, aprox. 10% more (I presume the "skilled" ones) dead on their second. Remainings of the "attack", average 10 planes, start the usual vulch, gaining no air superiority until the 2nd lemming wave (the ones killed on the first pass) get again to the vulched field. Lose an average of 2 or 3 goons killed by scarcely 2 to 4 defendants. Finally, base capture. Total time: no less than 30 minutes from the first pass, usually not more than 90.
Is that "strategy"? No, no and no. It's lemming psychology working full steam ahead.
There is one thing that I've stated last month and is that, given roughly equal numbers between Bish and Knits, Bish are consistently losers. Of course we Rooks are only the sandwich's ham. But that's another story.
Being a fact the lack of skill of the average Bish pilot (and saving for the inevitable exceptions to this), I just wanted to point out that their "strat" department is severely lacking too. Even doubling Rook numbers, not a single "mission" deep into Rook territory, just the usual hopper dance. When numbers don't give them a notable advantage, their run simply stalls, and game over for them.
Sorry to burst your bubble, Bishland. Your pretended "strat" boils down only to numbers pressure.
I respect the Bish individuals that, as hard to find as they are, still give you fits, and go for the fite, and the skilled ones (Mika and LeftF00t come to mind after yesterday run). I still them after the fite, whatever the outcome. But I'm losing respect for Bishland attitudes at a very fast pace. Just the permanent no-skill vulch&gangbang country. Not anything that anyone must care about, I'm no more than an insignificant player flying for Rooks. Just the statement of a fact.
to all AH fighters.
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:D :D ;) :D :D ;) :D
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Hey someone quoted Stalin here not long ago : "Quantity has a quality of it's own".
The tactic you're describing pretty much worked for the Chinese(PRC) revolution! When you have overwhelming numbers, there is no need for more "subtle" tactical move.
50% of the rooks are still at A1/A44 though... someone please remove their blindfold :D
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Originally posted by Saintaw
...When you have overwhelming numbers, there is no need for more "subtle" tactical move....
Problem with this: yesterday they moved from the 130ish against 100ish Knits, with 5 fields advantage for the reset. It took them too long to win, and they found themselves on equal terms in numbers against Knits, and 1 field behind. Gap that they were unable to close.
If Bish war academy would by some books, they could get rid of the only one they have now. It's time they drop "Lemming Evolution: a natural success tale" (by Dweebus Maximus, Gen.Ret.). Using this only book as teaching material is producing some weird, albeit predictable, behaviours. :D
Cheers,
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so your saying the rooks in their ultimate superiority of skill tactics and wisdom are unable to counter inexperienced bishop tactics and numbers?
hitech did away with deep striked long ago when goons were given power to instantly resupply hq even with city at 0%
deep strike field captures are equally pointless if you have no way of closing the gap between it and neerest enemy field.
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Originally posted by Citabria
so your saying the rooks in their ultimate superiority of skill tactics and wisdom are unable to counter inexperienced bishop tactics and numbers?
No.
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3 days ago I got 23 bishops in mission with 28 bishops online. BTW bishops were 3rd in number, with nits having around 45 online same time, and rooks 2nd in numbers. Can you make it in rookland? I could not, in the same situation in rookland I got 0 participation, and canceled mission.
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Fariz (and all),
I'm seeing that you are misunderstanding the post. This is not a whine, and this is not chest thumping. It's only a descriptive post about Bish behaviour and tactics.
I am not telling we can do it better in Rookland. Not even close :D
Well, everybody knows that we Rooks are in the anthipodae of team playing. I quite agree with that. But this issue does not have anything to do with the post.
Being in a country that is not Team-oriented does not blind me as to not see how the other countries behave. That's all.
Bish strat is VERY limited in scope. Bish missions are limited to the same thing over and over. Bish depends purely on numbers to succeed, and they fail strepitously when they don't have them. Bish are booring and easy to fight on a 1 vs 1, 1 vs several (3 or 4) bishes.
This are facts about general behaviour and skills. And, of course, there is exceptions, and It can arguably be said that there are some Bish pilots amongst the pilot elite. I agree to this too.
But facts are stubborn. Each night is a lively prove of what I said.
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Cool isn't it, that significant No of Bish (and knit) switched to rook.
We'll see how the 'No-players' Bish will do when they don't have the No's anymore, :D
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Pepe
For instance (and the pattern is been repeated despite terrain change) during the 4 hours I've been online yesterday in NDISLES terrain, they just jumped from base to base following the same pattern. Launch a 30ish Tiffy or Pony run to the nearest base. Ill-hearted attempt of a jabo run failing miserably to close FH's and even VH most of the times. 50% of lemming attack wave killed on their first pass, aprox. 10% more (I presume the "skilled" ones) dead on their second. Remainings of the "attack", average 10 planes, start the usual vulch, gaining no air superiority until the 2nd lemming wave (the ones killed on the first pass) get again to the vulched field. Lose an average of 2 or 3 goons killed by scarcely 2 to 4 defendants. Finally, base capture. Total time: no less than 30 minutes from the first pass, usually not more than 90.
Is that "strategy"? No, no and no. It's lemming psychology working full steam ahead.
I fly for Bish, because that's what the squad flies for. But I absolutely agree with what you say - 100%. Those lemming missions score zero for skill and satisfaction in my book, which is why I NEVER join missions. The behaviour you describe leaves me pining for the Mission Arena.
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We do have co-operation in rookland every now and then. Almost every thursday we get about 10-20 (sometimes even more) finns on-line and we do our own missions together. Sometimes we even capture fields and Ive seen that many other rooks join us when they see us attacking somewhere. No need to post a mission. People are like ants, they often follow bigger group.
Just wait until our tactics and skills get better and we run over bishland...:D :D
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It's Human Nature vs Gameplay
It's go the path of least resistance
It's nothing new, really- actually WWII would have probably been the same as AH if you would have been in it for fun back then, paying 15$ a Month as you went along...
A proper side-balance may be interesting, or boring as hell - we'll see
interesting because we may develop better tactics to "get the edge"
boring because it may just end up in a stalemate of endless "take the Base, lose the Base" fighting
Numbers: with so many ppl in the arena, fighting becomes rather impersonal - you just vulch a field and kill a bunch of John Doe's and pat your Score (that's what I'm doing right now).
I still have some shame left, since I refuse to fly La7's but when I take a glance at the Chn1 talkers, or the BBS attitude, I often wonder "why bother?"
The CT ain't better in that Department because the people are sooo much more decent, it's due to low numbers that you refrain from acting like a dork, because you know most of the people on the other side, and they know you.
As far as this Rook, Bish, Knit Nationalism goes: Rooks would be like Bish if they had the numbers, Bish would be like Rooks if they were in the bucket - same goes for Knits. I've heard the same Nationalist Banter in WB, so it's not even restricted to this Sim, it's just another day at the office...
The Mission Arena may be something that would bring back some the excitement I felt when picking up Flightsims so long ago, but the same people who fly in the MA will be the ones in the Mission Arena and any loopholes in gameplay will be abused there as is done now in the MA for:
It's Human Nature vs Gameplay
It's go the path of least resistance
It's nothing new, really- actually WWII would have probably been the same as AH if you would have been in it for fun back then, paying 15$ a Month as you went along...
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Originally posted by Fariz
3 days ago I got 23 bishops in mission with 28 bishops online. Can you make it in rookland?
Nope Fariz, one cannot make it in Rookland. Rooks have got used to defending what they have. That is why one could not take 23 guys on a "lemming mission" and leave only 5 to defend the existing bases. That kind of strategy would likely gain 1 base while losing 2 or 3.
Why would you even need 23 guys in that kind of situation? For those infamous suicide-jabo-tiffies? To create enough lag at small area with number of planes? It is enough to have 5-8 guys to capture a base.. 2 is enough for a V-base ;)
I do agree with Pepe's point. Bishes are a quantity country and most of them act accordingly. That is ok though, more targets.. :) ..if they only would stay in air instead of ramming those hangars.
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Its all about the numbers. Thats the only thing that counts here!!!
Strat from what strat are u speaking ???? Knights dont have any strat thinking.
U want to bring strategic thinking in a gang bang arena ???
How u wanna do that. U wann bring people to make suicide mission ???
No way not with me. I complained enough and got called a general to often. I wont care of diddlying strat anymore. Ill also will stop and care about diddlying score and everything. Be with the greater numbers and win thats it nothing more.
Best example was knights trying to get 24 yesterday. Ot the big furball A1 --- A4.
Strat is so what useless here. Have big numbers win the game.
Gang and getting ganged thats it. Have some beer good music and care a diddly of other people and land grabbing. Thats the only way u can have fun in the MA lately.
Better said thats the fun for me latley.
Really sad that is but true.
Looking forward to the next update and hoping AH will do something to the gameplay.
Otherwise ill take a big brake from this Bullchit, sad but true.
A lot of my squad mates often log off soon after logging in because of the situation going on in the MA lately. I have more fun doing some duels in the DA. Greets to Gremlin was a blast yesterday
Ok enough whine from me i wont take the game serious anymore.
It changed into a arcade game like AW was.
As more player comin into it as more gamey it will be.
PLZ HT do something or i am out.
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Pepe got killed by a rabid lemming?
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Surely he got...but he took 7 with him. I saw it yestarday.
I thank this lemming effect. I could imagine the same hordes but with very good pilots or very organised. Rookland woulnt exist anymore.
That lemming effect is what let rookland exist.
Salute to the comunity
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Originally posted by Fatty
Pepe got killed by a rabid lemming?
You bet....and more than once!!
Especially since I'm really enjoying killing lemmings on the Take Off run, or even otr, before I start engine. It's amazing seeing how they come screaming in a 10 degrees dive, perfectly aligned with the rnwy, to meet their fate from the guns of a barely moving plane.
It's a very demanding activity (K/D wise) but also a very rewarding one... :D
No, getting killed don't get my nerves. I use to be a close defense type of guy, so gettin killed over and over and over is my usual bread and table. I know it's stupid (into some particular and self point of view) but If you try to take a field from Rookland, and I am defending...you will take it (and you usually do ;)) from my virtual cold dead fingers no matter what the vulch lemmings odds are. Not a second before.
Oh! and don't try to look for a hidden agenda on my post. There is no such. :)
Cheers,
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Overall numbers don't really matter.
Only coordinated numbers matter.
Overall numbers helps you get more people coordinated, since about the same small percentage is interested on every side.
10 coordinated players can push back 30 people just flying to the next base, easily.
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If u say so
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Careful robsan, your coming dangerously close to the forbidden line of maturity and common sense. ;)
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I like to do missions, I mixed them up though, Japanese Jabos, British fiter sweeps...its too easy to take a field with a horde of Tiffy's. Hell, ya only need 10-tiffies or P51's to take a defended field.
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damn Freeze relax.......this is gettin to personel for you.:(
Bish....Rook or Knight doesn't matter.
you wanna buff...grab 1 and fly.
you wanna attack...grab jabo and attack.
you wanna fight....grab dweeb plane and fight.
what the hell else you want HT to do.
Numbers not good....go to DA or CT.
even better H2H:p
the point is do something to have fun...don't wait or blame HT if your not.
cya bud
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Now I would agree that 10 organized people can stop 30 less organized people, but it seems that whoever has a numbers advantage seems to be the one advancing. The Rooks advance just as fast as the bish when each has a numbers advantage.
Therefore, numbers are a statisticly significant causitive aspect. (sorry about the jargon)
In conclusion, however many pilots the bish have and however good rook pilots are individually, nits will always be better :p
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kill fuel
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I dunno Pepe. Last night on Baltic map, Bish were attacking Knight fields in force. When attacking a field, a three of four plane group would break off and go on to the next nearest field and take out fuel and/or fighter hangers so that we couldn't up from that field to defend the one under massive attack.
They took six or seven field in short order doing this. You can call it gang-banging, argue against mass-jabo attacks, and claim that it can't be any fun for those involved. But you certainly can't claim that Bishops don't employ good field capture tactics.
You can argue against the ultimate goal of capturing fields and gaining a reset (many do everyday). But given that goal, you certainly can't argue that the Bish don't display a knack for it from time-to-time.
I guess the point you're really trying to make is that swarming base captures aren't any fun. To that I would say that they must be for some, because a lot of people engage in them.
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Originally posted by Samiam
... When attacking a field, a three of four plane group would break off and go on to the next nearest field and take out fuel and/or fighter hangers so that we couldn't up from that field to defend the one under massive attack....
I do maintain my point. Maybe that particular nite Bish elite was working against Knights. On a regular basis, and from my experience fiting Bish, it would take an average of 10 Bishes to wipe out a small field FH's and gain air superiority over target, maybe 30+ of them to do it on a medium one... 2 waves, of course, due to the attrition suffered habitually by the first one... :D
The usual Bish attack lacks in the originality, skill, and forward-thinking departments and only excels in coordination and numbers....pitifully it's only first-wave coordinated. After first pass, such first wave decimated, Bish coordination seconds even Rook's and a really significant part of Bish attackers have to re-up from the last gangbanged field... :D
Cheers,
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bish, and now rooks, send in the chinesse typhie suicide waves. Yes, as stalin points out there is quality to quanity... I don't want to duplicate that fact in a game tho. It takes a lot of the fun out.
The strat and "missuns" are to blame... perhaps it is so many new people who.. are not bored yet with "buildng battling".. they may lack skill also and feel secure in large groups even if those groups are lemmings.
Point the new guys to the stats pages... give them some personal goals... better K/D... better K/hour... hit percentage whatever. anything but "dive into building with bomb and scream lok a t me look at me on vox". or...
change something in the game to make it not viable.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Bish, and now rooks, send in the chinesse typhie suicide waves. Yes, as stalin points out there is quality to quanity... I don't want to duplicate that fact in a game tho. It takes a lot of the fun out.
Lazs...don't sweat on it too much.
It's only part of our gradual Rook training program. People coming from other countries might find Rook approach to air combat too demanding for their "strat" driven minds.
Give us time, and you will have (again) a wonderful bunch of air fighters....of course don't ask us to coordinate a "missun" as you say....that only seldom happens. Nothing to worry about.
Look no further...yesterday :D
Cheers,
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All three sides are full of dweebs. All three sides do suicide typhie/38/jug/pony runs. All three sides are good. All three sides suck too. The sooner you all realize that the only difference between the three countries (aside from what chess piece represents them) is the attitude you have about those countries.
I have spent time flying for all three countries at various times in the past. I can say the following with complete sincerity:
Bish suck
Knits suck
Rooks suck
None is better than the other.
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To frikken funny.
Actually, now that I fully consider it, its kinda sad.
I am now officially requesting that Fatty move the FDB to rooks. I want to be cool too. I want to fly with the Uber Mensch and learn their superior rook ways. I want the love and adulation they get.
bahh, screw it... as long as someone is willing to bail out, I'll be happy.
F.
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I second Mathman's comment.
Rooks, Knights, and Bishops all suck, and are all virtuous.
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Hey Citabria, I've emailed you but got no reply. Is that Pitts you used to fly at Lakeland available? If so, who do I contact?
Thanks,
glacey
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people here crack me up always the same ...blah,blah blah
who cares if 400 hit 1 field go somewhere else. It is a GAME.....:rolleyes:
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Oh well Citabria, I must assume the Pitts was a figment of your imagination.
glacey
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the pitts s2c I was using was here in orlando and it was sold a few moths ago.
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Thanks, thought you got hold of a Pitts at Lakeland a couple of years ago. 'scuse the 'extreme measures' used to get a response :-)
glacey