Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: batdog on October 03, 2001, 10:21:00 AM
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Well...just for FRIENDLY conversation how do you expertn out there see this effecting them.
I see them as being badass planes still. I see this as taking away some of the zoom ablities, perhaps speed retaining from a dive and even effecting the T&B ablity of them. Actually the E thing might help a niki in a turn fight?
xBAT
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IMO the LA7 is an over rated threat and I'm still perplexed at those who seem to have an issue with it.
The N1K2 I've seen do some pretty fantastic and ey brow raisning maneuvers and it makes me dread thinking what a Spitfire Mk XIV could do if we had that commnonly available online. But Pyro has said the FM od the N1K2 and a few others planes (fm, flaps etc)and wil be corrected. Will have to "wait-see"
Westy
[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]
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Originally posted by Westy MOL:
But Pyro has said the FM od the N1K2 and a few others planes (fm, flaps etc)and wil be corrected. Will have to "wait-see"
Westy
[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]
Hi Westy,
I normally try to stay abreast of this sort of thing, but I've been in hospital, can you point me at the thread where the flight model changes are being announced/discussed?
Thanks
Badboy
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Hope all is well Badboy. Sincerely.
Pyro posted in the aircraft/vehicles forumn back in July and there have been several posts interspersed among many topics here and there also. But with the search feature being turned off I cannot find those. I did however "punt" Pyro's FM topic in the aircraft forumn.
Westy
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Search with this. http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=search (http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=search)
xBAT
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the la7 is the best plane in the aces high main arena for sure
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I don't know that I agree Zig. It certainly has terrific low alt speed, good instantaneous turn-rate, great WEP and fantastic acceleration. On the down side, it has terrible guns, poor outside view through the cluttered windowframes, very short range, and a nasty stall.
In the right hands it is a lethal weapon, for sure, but in the wrong hands all you have to do is stay outside of D200 of it and you needn't worry about it hurting you. A long range shot in a La7 is 250-300. That would be considered "whites of their eyes" territory for something with .50's.
-Soda
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the la7 is the best plane in the aces high main arena for sure
Then why is it only the 4th most used plane? If its so obviously the best. ;)
FYI I've never seen anything from anyone at HTC in posts here on the UBB, or in person seen arena discussions about the La7 being lumped in with the N1K2 about having the "E bug".
I've only seen one person who said that he heard Hitech say that in the arena, and its been spread by word of mouth here. And even then it was said that the problem with the La7 only had the problem "a little bit".
*shrugs* so I guess we wait and see.
[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: Vermillion ]
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the only real issue i have with the nik is its e retention.THATS what is so hard to predict.I cant tell you the amount of times ive dived on one with excessively higher speed and alt missed the shot because the nik breaks, i loop over and try again as you can with every lower e plane only after 2 or 3 tries at this, and lets face it the nik is very capable of avoiding fire so its by no means unusual to miss it a few times, the nik can be almost co alt and co speed even with all the crazy evasives.NO OTHER aircraft is so dangerous or so fast in evening the energy states in this sort of engagement.This is what i percieve to be its UFO quality.
Now im well aware that the NIK was indeed a very good aircraft and will no doubt perform pretty similar to how it does now but it will not maintain its 'e' quite so well and would fall more into line with the behaviour of other aircraft(ie predictable).
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batdog,
I agree. The N1K2 and La-7 will still be extremely leathal. I expect that the N1K2 will remain the favorite aircraft in the MA. It is clear that people like to brawl, to get in close and mix it up, and the N1K2 and Spitfire MkIX are clearly the best brawlers. This doesn't bake them the best fighters, just the best brawlers.
Westy,
I agree about your Spit 14 comment. An unperked Spitfire MkXIV would be the ruin of this game. The Spitfire F.MkXIVc is my favorite WWII aircraft and I look forward to spending perk points to fly it. It isn't terribly fast at AH combat altitudes, so I would think that a moderate price of about 30 perk points would control it nicely.
The Spitfire MkXIV must be a perk plane. Unperked it would make the F4U-1C scourge look like a minor hassle.
Soda,
I too think that the La-7 is the best fighter in the MA. That doesn't mean that I think it should be perked though (although it, and planes like it, are a big reason that I don't bother with the Tempest).
Look at the La-7s advantages:
Speed: It is the fastest non-perked aircraft at AH combat altitudes, only slightly slower than the 70 point Tempest.
Acceleration: The La-7 is one of the best accelerators in the game.
Guns: 3 20mm cannon are enough firepower to kill anything quickly.
Zoom climb: The La-7 will zoom climb with anything.
Instantaneos turn: This is the only kind of turn a fast plane needs.
Durable: The La-7 is one of the toughest fighters in AH.
Disadvantages:
Guns: The trajectory isn't very good on the cannons.
Nasty stall: When turning its stall is abrupt and hard.
Fuel range: Very short laegs and no droptanks available.
Only the fuel range cannot be compensated for. The guns can be compensated for by simply firing from closer range and the bad stall characteristics can be avoided by avoiding something that you should be avoding anyways, turn fighting.
The 5 best fighters in the AH MA are, IMHO, the La-7, P-51D, Bf109G-10, Typhoon and Fw190D-9.
Vermillion,
The La-7 is 'only' the 4th most popular because of two things:
1) The La-7 is not a brawler and most people seem to like brawlers.
2) It is Russian and many Americans still react with distaste or hostility towards anything Russian due to the Cold War.
Best and most popular are not the same thing. None of the fighters that I consider best occupy the top spot.
hazed,
It sounds like you're pulling to tight to me. When I fight N1K2s in an Fw190D-9, if I miss the first shot I pull up at no more than 3 Gs and then zoom up till I'm down to 125mph, THEN I dive back at him. I've never seen an N1K2 come close to equalizing energy with me.
If you are in a plane like a Fw190A-5 or Bf109G-2 you are going to be at a disadvantage, but this is hardly surprising when you think about it. The N1K2 is a late 1944 aircraft whereas the Fw190A5 is an early 1943 aircraft and the Bf109G-2 is a 1942 aircraft. The Fw190A-8 is intended to be a bomber killer, so it too has problems. A compentently flown Bf109G-10, P-51, La-7, Fw190D-9 or even Typhoon should rarely lose to a compentently flown N1K2. They might not win all the time, but they should be able to force a draw more than they lose.
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I'd strike the 109G10 from the list of planes that has an easy time killing the N1K2s. Even if you use the caveat "a competent pilot" (which I consider myself to be), I have an incredibly tough time fighting N1K2's 1v1 (and it is even more fun when there are 3 of them and 2 other enemies).
I'll agree that the Dora should kill them pretty easy, the La7 as well. The P-51D I don't agree with, and I have no clue about the Typhoon. I do believe the 109s (except for the G10) and the 190s (except for the Dora) have a fairly poor shot at killing N1K2's in any situation, regardless of who holds the inital advantage (although the F4 can turn with them, or very close to it).
I don't know, I think the 109 lacks the firepower to kill N1K2's. You will not get any 'tracking' shots against one (unless you are in the F4), and the 30mm is an incredibly tough gun to hit with, plus it has very limited ammo. The single 20mm just is not enough firepower to bring one down in a snapshot.
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Karnak,
I agree that the La-7 is ONE of the best, but I don't think it is THE best. It takes a good pilot in order to really exploit the La7 to its full potential where some other planes can be thrown around the sky and still do well. I don't think the La7 can do that or it will not be very effective.
Look at the La-7s advantages:
Speed: It is the fastest non-perked aircraft at AH combat altitudes, only slightly slower than the 70 point Tempest.
Acceleration: The La-7 is one of the best accelerators in the game.
Guns: 3 20mm cannon are enough firepower to kill anything quickly.
Zoom climb: The La-7 will zoom climb with anything.
Instantaneos turn: This is the only kind of turn a fast plane needs.
Durable: The La-7 is one of the toughest fighters in AH.
Disadvantages:
Guns: The trajectory isn't very good on the cannons.
Nasty stall: When turning its stall is abrupt and hard.
Fuel range: Very short laegs and no droptanks available.
Speed: It is actually BARELY faster than a number of aircraft on the deck which are all considered good rides. The 190D9, 109G10, Typhoon (ok, not great), P51D, and Tempest all are within only a small amount of total speed. Add 5K of alt in and they pretty much are all even, by 10K all are ahead except the Typhoon. Most fights in AH end up low, but start out at up to about 15K. Only the furballs start out lower than that and any fight that is at less than 1000ft typically is a turnfight, where the La7 certainly doesn't excel.
Acceleration: Agreed, it really can pick up speed quickly. So can the 190D9. A nice thing to have, but not enough to get you away from a number of good accelerators in the lower speed ranges (if you get slow). It works against N1K's and Spits though since they top out in speed so quickly as compared to an La7 down low.
Guns: They aren't nearly as good at snapshots as one might think. Things often squeek through without a scratch since most snapshots have to occur so close that it's tough to judge them perfectly. Playing the BnZ game with it, and trying to snapshot up close, leads to a lot of collisions, or near collisions.
Zoom Climb: You're probably right, it can zoom with anything in the game. There are a couple that zoom pretty close though. It can't zoom and hang there though like a N1K or Spit. Once at the top you'd better get yourself back picking up speed.
Instantaneous turn: It's very good, but so are a number of other planes. I don't notice it superior to some others.
Damage Tolerance: It can take a hit, but having only 1 fuel tank tends to cause problems. Once you spring a leak (which happens often to even .303 fire) you are pretty much outta luck. You'll have 30 seconds more fuel and then you are a glider. It also seems to lose wingtips easily though it is possible to fly it without one (to some extent at least).
I admit, I fly a lot of La7 and I like it because it is a great plane for killing P51's, N1K's, Hogs, and Spits down low. At mid alt though (say between 10 and 20K) it isn't all that great and many common rides are better (the P51, 190 and 109's come to mind). It's best for slashing attacks, but there are others that are just as good at that and have been guns.
-Soda
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The best arena plane is still the P51D, closely followed by the La7, 109G10 and Fw190D9
THe P51D is the best all around because it is bassically faultless. All the planes I mentioned avobe have some kind of serious drawbacks
-Fw190D9: bad guns (mausers suck), serious E-bleeding in any maneouver. nasty stall
-La7: Bad visibility, bad hi altitude perfomrance
-109G10: horrible hispeed maneouverability, limited visibility and space for the head.
The P51D is easy to handle, has very good speed at any altitude, has a great initial turnrate, combat flaps, dives like a dream, keeps E very well, has a nice zoom ability, great performance at altitude, impressive visibility, great weapons with lots of ammo, (I LOVE those 50 cals), incredible range...it has it all.
The only think it lacks is a better acceleration and climbrate, but those are not MAJOR faults.
Of course it is an OVERALL estimation. The other planes have important strenghts as well as problems, but the P51D has lots of strenghts and no serious fault. For me it is the best MA plane.
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Actually as a regular La7 Pilit I would like to be able to bleed a little more e with throttle and rudder control than presently. I would be willing to pay for it with acceleration.
The present speed/climb envelope is beyond question I assume?
And I know it was a little more stable at lower airspeeds than present modelling.. (devil when it departed tho)
Tilt
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An interesting thread....seems to have evolved to two issues so
1) IMHO the nikki has serious e retension issues that make it a much more formidable plane than it should be. If the E model is tweaked a bit the plane becomes what it should be...a great brawler with reasonable "total energy". As it stands no other palne combines the pure T&B and E fighting combination....even the tempest. I believe this is because they are "mutually exclusive". No plane from that era has a technological/engineering edge that allows that level of domination....a trade of has to exist. Obviously a planes design may be better than its relative counterpart....but the 109f to 109G10 is indicative of development....so the spit XIV will not out turn the spit IX...just like the spit IX wont out turn a spit V.
Personally I've always felt the La-7 is right about where it should be....a poor mans 190-D.
As for the vulnerability of the nikki, I often see stats like 9-3 vs nikki in tour X. Well since I see 9+ nikki's every hop this means your engaging only when you have an edge and extending an awful lot. The nikki is a very difficult plane to beat in a furball enviornment...and it should be. It's unfair E retention (IMO) allows it to dominate in the E fighting arena with little or no lose of angle fighting capability.
The nikki should be a feared T&B plane...probably the best in the game...but ita ability to "turn and close" is a bit porked...we've all seen nikkis pull hi speed hi g turns and climb up our tail pipes...even though we're zooming from the start...or make classic ACM mistakes...only to recover with no apparent lose of E.
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I think the LA-7 will improve if they tweak the E retention. As it is the E-retention can be exploited, ie its easy to get an overshoot or lawndart out of an La7 because they find it hard to slow down. With the limited gun range you get the chance to do this a lot.
The Niki is a puzzle to me, I kind of hear people describing it as a Zeke with big guns and a big engine. This would explain the amazing manoevres we see it pull. Where it puzzles me is the Niki can follow my tiffie down through dives, tiffie-pedal-to-the-metal type dives at well over 480kias. Now if the niki was so light, had a hi thrust-weight ratio etc, one would think it would have airframe problems at high speed, or compression problems. But it doesn't.
I've had a niki follow me through moves that rip the rings of 109s, 51s, 47s, and Spits.
This is what I don't understand - composite airframes didn't exist in WW2 did they?
These days if I see a co-alt or high niki I just HO him, I figure that 9 times out of 10 its a newbie, his shooting sucks, and my hispanos have a higher rate of fire and better trajectory. And most of the time this works, especially as most nikis go for the initial HO anyway - I'm getting a relatively high success rate :) I've noticed some Nikis pull some wild moves when they see a tiffie coming HO at them now.
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Urchin,
I don't fly the Bf109G-10 much (once only in Tour 20) so I'll take your word for it that killing N1K2s is hard for it. However that wasn't my qualification. What I said is that it would rarely lose. You have 3 options, win, lose and draw. The aircraft I mentioned are so fast as to be able to withdraw and force a draw most of the time, even if they don't kill the N1K2.
Soda,
All planes have advatages and disadvantages, I feel that the La-7's add up better than any other fighter's in the context of the AH MA. It might not be the best, but it is certainly close.
RAM,
Actually, I find P-51s annoyingly fragile. The break apart if you pull hard, something that my normal rides, Spitfires, Typhoons and Fw190D-9s, don't do. They are very responsive and balanced on the controls though.
Humble,
Heh. Those are my numbers. You have to consider that I only got 65 kills in that Tour. I don't get that much time in AH per tour.
As to my tactics, if I am forced to run, I rarely come back. The kills of N1K2s that I got were in melee situations, I just make sure I've got the energy to climb out of danger. I make an attack at 450mph-500mph and then do a 3 G pull up to verticle and go straight on up till I'm down to about 125mph. Then I look at the situation and go again.
I remember a fight I had in Tour 19. I was flying an N1K2 and my opponenent was in a P-47. He came in with the energy advantage and a did a break turn out of danger. He went verticle, but instead of going up until he was safe he just pulled it over the top and came down again. After doing this three times I had evened the energy and when he did it a fourth time I killed him.
I get the feeling that a lot of people don't do a great job of retaining their energy. That pilot initially blamed his loss on my "ufo". The truth is, I'd have done the same in a Spitfire MkIX and with a few more loops a Zero, Spitfire MkV or Seafire would have done nicely as well.
I have to admit that I am really looking forward to 1.08 and I hope the N1K2 is still servicable for all those who like to brawl.
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Karnak...the 9-3 # wasn't ment as a negative in any way....just an observation that many simply choose not to engage a nikki under most circumstances (a smart decision) and use it's mediocre top speed to minimize it's superiority in every other area.
My only other significant experience in online flight sims was AW (ducks), obviously the FM here is far superior...BUT...I do believe the hierarchy of the plane set was fundementally correct. The planes were modeled correctly to each other to a large degree...the spit out turned a 109 but suffered in vertical...the 190 outrolled the P51...but didnt turn as well and so on....the nikki was considered the "190 of the pacific"...the Ki-84 was the uber plane that came closest to the perfect combo of speed and turn rate...however a well flown hog would eat em both up...while the F6F labored a bit due to its lower top end speed.
The nikki here simply seems to have disturbed the natural order of the universe...
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Humble,
Ah. I see what you were saying. In my case I don't see the N1K2 as this monster and I don't avoid them like the plague. I think there may be some moral issues here as well. If people think its that nasty and it'll win, they may be setting up a loss without realizing it and fulfilling their beleif in the N1K2's UFOness.
My personal monster is the La-7. ;)
From what you say about Air Warrior I would not use it as a reference. Everything that I've found about the N1K2 says that it was a great turner. A 369mph Fw190 doesn't sound like a threat to me at all and historically Hellcat pilots reported the N1K2 doing "impossible manuvers." Actually, are you sure you're thinking of the N1K2 in AW and not the J2M3? That description would match the J2M3 a lot better.
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I believe only one version of the nikki was modeled and I don't really recall the specifics.
A well flown La-7 will control the fight against almost any plane in the absence of a large initial E disparity.
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Just take a n1k, get it to 300mph and pull 90 degrees up. Watch the speed until you begin to have problems keeping the plane under control while keeping the nose pointing upwards. Dare say 30 or 40mph? Notice I said "begin". The plane will stay nose up (90 degrees with horizon) with minimal rudder input until the plane is at near 0 mph, at which point it noses down on its own.. with no stall, no spinning, no nothing. Now you wonder why E-fighters cant do anything vs n1ks unless they have like 10k adv? it will zoom up WITH them and spray until its 0mph (which point the other plane will have stalled and flopped over at 100mph... 100 mph advantage!!)
Not bad for a plane with 2000HP engine and automatic flap system wouldnt you say? Im sure the F4U and 109g10 guys would love to have a torqueless thing like that!
[ 10-04-2001: Message edited by: Tac ]
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I think all planes could use a good stall model worked into thier fm's(not just Niki)
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Anyone know if they are going to change the ceilings of these planes? (la7/N1k)
from what i understood they could not fly over 20k due to not having the oxygen equipment, or somehting to that effect. (not a ac buff my self)