Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: SpyHawk on July 20, 2000, 10:23:00 AM
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All I want to know is if the Ju88 will have TWO torpedoes (on inboard wing hardpoints) for sinking Allied ships.
Of course they wont be that much fun until we have ships....but...
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We're getting an A-4 not an A-17, sadly we get an American plane of which only 200 were built(1c) and then a 1941 German bomber that will get slaughtered in the MA, real fair.
How about an S model Ju88, Htc, even things up?
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Damn. That's a kick in tha nuts.
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Conspiracy!
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Yes, join us in the RAF who are stuck in the early part of the war. (OK, mid war, but who's counting?)
Sisu
-Karnak
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You're right, what a stupid and unfair plane to add. Fortunately, there's still a lot of work to be done on it so we should just cancel it and cut our losses. It's not like anyone would fly it or build events or scenarios using it.
Spyhawk- we won't be adding torpedos until we do ships - tentatively set for 1.05.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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Originally posted by Nath-BDP:
We're getting an A-4 not an A-17, sadly we get an American plane of which only 200 were built(1c) and then a 1941 German bomber that will get slaughtered in the MA, real fair.
How about an S model Ju88, Htc, even things up?
Its just about the marketing.. who would play a game where yank newbies would get kicked bellybutton by german iron (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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C'mon, Fishu. Knock that chip off your shoulder- you'll enjoy life a lot more! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Fishu and Nath,
You guys have hit on a great idea.....build your own damn sim!
With your combined vast knowledge, as demonstrated by your unending river of complaints..err opinions, I mean, prove that you two will have no trouble building your own sim!
Cobra
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Bring on the JU-88. It'll come in pretty handy when we start planning large scenarios.
I'm already starting to think about a huge Eastern front scenario.....
Come to think of it, a Russian bomber would come in very handy for that scenario!
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often posted, but no reply.
once more!
HTC why don't you give us a HE177???.it would
be a good (AND FIRST!!!!) AXIS bomber with
good payload and defense abilities. not like
a ju88 a4 (mid '41!!!) with nearly same pay-
load like a jug!.
if you think of ships then think of the FITZ
glide bombs they could carry.
once you said, that there would be planes
modelled other sims haven't. well give the
ah pilots the he177.
ok, ju will be good for bob, but will still
have no 109e and spit1 and hurry for it.
second question.
why got allied 3rd late-war buff (lancester)
and no early-mid one like axis??
because no one would fly BLENHEIM when there
is a b26 and b17 aviable. same would happen
to the ju88, pure SEA buff.
all out there, pls think about it!
HABICHT
XO JG54"Gruenherz"
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HABICHT,
Who says the Lancaster is late war?!?!?!?
The Lancaster is early 1942.
Its not HTCs fault that the vaunted Germans couldn't produce a decent bomber.
We may get a late war Lanc, but the thing changed very little from '42 to '45. Bomber Command evaluated each and every suggested change on the criteria of "Would this put more pounds of bombs on Germany?" If the aswer was "No", for whatever reason (and it usally was), the change didn't happen.
Jeez, if you're going to complain endlessly at least know your stuff.
Sisu
-Karnak
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 07-20-2000).]
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HTC why don't you give us a HE177???
Got any accurate flight data on it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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To paraphrase Pyro,
If you dont like your Battle of Britain bomber you get nothing.
Karnak seems to be saying that since the Germans did not have the best bombers in the world in 1944, AH should have a 1941 axis bomber. Give him a lanc with only 303s and listen to the roar.
I have to assume that Pyro has good reasons to include such a pathetically early plane in the plane set when the 188 and 177 would appear to make so much more sense. Maybe the 20mm defensive guns didnt fit in with his increased leathality bomber guns.
Maybe the Fort would be quite rare with a non engine problem 177 in the game. No. Im sure its not that. It will be interesting to see how many JU pilots want to brave their dual 7.92mm against the planes in the MA.
He 123 next?
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More thoughts...
Ju88A-4 1940
B-26B 1942
B-17G 1942-43
Lancaster 1942
Got that out of the way, now let's discuss what you really have.
The B-26B's role is well defined in AH- fast bomber, low alt, weak defensive armament. Result: easy to shoot down, but effective in the right hands. basically a bomber that can strafe targets, but quad .50' not very lethal.
B-17G: Slow to climb, carries good payload, and has great defensive armament. Result: once it has alt it is hard to stop. Has only one role; heavy bomber.
Lancaster: Carries the biggest payload of all, but will have relatively weak armament. It has a low ceiling, and isn't very fast. Result: If you ignore it, it can clobber your cities. It is no match for the late war fighters of our arena, and will die in droves. It has only one role, heavy bomber.
Ju88: A fast medium bomber capable of doubling (when the variants arrive) as a bomber killer. It can torpedo. It can level bomb. It can dive bomb (shallow). It can be used in anti-shipping. In short, it was the LW jack-of-all-trades, and will have every bit as much chance surviving the arena as does the Lancaster, and possibly even the B26 (higher ceiling and more maneuverable).
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Would be cool if it is a warning of a malta theater...
B17G is sept 43
I dont think its so rediculous to want a 1944 bomber for the LW.. But really none of them could stand up to the plane set we have anyway. Didnt they all have the cannon on the nose instead of the tail?
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"Discovery Wings" had an excellent show on the JU-88 on last week. It demonstrated, as Kieren said, that the JU-88 was used throughout the entire war and was a "jack of all trades". It was used in a wide variety of roles and performed the last bombing raid made by the Luftwaffe only a few days before war's end.
trm
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Er, Pongo, I'm fully expecting my Lancaster to be defended by 8 .303 Brownings. 2 in the nose, 2 in the dorsal and 4 in the tail. If I'm lucky we'll get a REALLY early Lanc that has 10 .303s with 2 in a belly turret in addition to the 8 I mentioned above.
So no, I won't scream or squeak and moan when my Lancaster is patheticly armed.
Sisu
-Karnak
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often posted, but no reply.
once more!
HTC why don't you give us a HE177???.it would
be a good (AND FIRST!!!!) AXIS bomber with
good payload and defense abilities. not like
a ju88 a4 (mid '41!!!) with nearly same pay-
load like a jug!.
why got allied 3rd late-war buff (lancester)
and no early-mid one like axis??
because no one would fly BLENHEIM when there
is a b26 and b17 aviable. same would happen
to the ju88, pure SEA buff.
The B-17, B-26, and Lancaster are late war bombers? Oh yeah, I remember now. The U.S. B-18s were getting severely mauled throughout the war until the closing days when those bombers were introduced, but really too late to make a difference.
The P-47 has nearly the same bomb load as a Ju 88? Hmm, I need to fix the P-47 then because the last I checked, it didn't come close to carrying 28 x 50kg + 4 x 250kg bombs. Oh well, just like me to screw over the 47 like that.
With the Ju 88, we get a good and ubiquitous plane that can be converted to many uses. We get a maneuverable bomber, a dive bomber, a torpedo bomber, and maybe even a Zerstorer. The last two are helpful because it gives us something to get by on while those things are developed in ernest. And yes, it is important for special events. As for the 177, we will do it in time, but it doesn't hold a candle to the 88 in terms of what it brings to the game. Sorry that you think the 88 is a poor bomber, we disagree on that.
Tell me, which version of the 177 you would like to see and why you think it's better than a Ju 88A-4.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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Cant see the word poor above to describe the 88, I used outdated which is not the same thing.
If you had a B17b (1939-40) or even an E in the game your shot about the b18 might make sence.
The contemporary of the B17G is the Ju188 which is 20mph faster then the 88 and flies higher and has a 20mm nose gun.
As for the 177
Only numbers I have are for the A1
Speed is 40mph higher
Has 2 extra machine guns probebly 13s instead of 7.92s.
payload is 50% greater
20mm!
Tail position!
and the molotov cocktail effect is not in effect!
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Facts about Junkers models.
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/aces/junkers.gif)
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 07-20-2000).]
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Hehe...go get em Pyro. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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This one next (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/aces/Blenheim_mkIV.jpg)
And "Bolo" would be nice too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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didn't say that Ju88 is bad (it's a great
design).
but it's nothing for our MA.
with "late war" lancaster i thought about
the 4x cal.5 turrent in the rear.
someone said it will be in.
BTW the HE177 was a good buff, more than
1,0000 were built. only problem were the
DB engines.
let's try the Ju88 and let's see how often
it will be used.
HABICHT
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Yeah, dammit! We want EVERY plane and we want them YESTERDAY!
Fer pete's sake, you've got a HUGE staff of 6 people and this thing is sneaking up on being pay for play for what? 5 or 6 months?
..and you still haven't modeled every single combat plane from the six different nations featured here!
What do you guys do down there in Grapevine anyway?
But seriously folks...they've said they're going to model all the good stuff. Look at what they've done so far. Accept the fact that they have their reasons for doing the planes in a particular order. Maybe it's data availability, maybe it's scenarios, maybe they just like that plane.
The planes keep coming. They'll all get here. It's still fun and it gets better every release.
Thanks HTC!
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Well,
I have to agree with Habicht. IMHO the AH's late war plane set makes every Axis bomber useless. After late 1942 the Luftwaffe lost any offensive elan. The Ju88 is without doubt a good level/dive/torpedo bomber, the problem is that you should use it in a 1940-42 arena. Why should I use a Ju88 in the Main Arena and not a fast and well armed USAF buff like a B25-B26? And the hopeless Zerstorer role is, IMHO, not enuff (perhaps the anti-shipping role .... who knows). The 1944-45 scenarios, with the (hopeless) LW up to intercept USAF+RAF at 25K+ with FW190A-8 and Bf109G-10 are, IMO really tiring (compared to the BoB, the channel air battles of 1941, the North African and the Russian fronts).
I hardly understand why WB and now AH dont give enuff importance to the 1940-42 air war, with IMHO the most interesting and balanced plane set ever seen. In 4-5 years WB staffs have not been able to build up a complete BoB, North Africa or Russian Front plane set. Now AH has a plane set that make all Axis buffs obsolete (well, jet buffs apart).
No flames, just some thoughts. Regards,
GATT
4°Stormo
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 07-21-2000).]
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>"It's going to be slaugthered in the MA!"
Well you don't have to fly it in the MA .. i don't see a lot of Zekes either in the MA but still the plane set wouldn't be complete without one !!
Take that JU88 Golly-geenit, just think about all the possible variants ! The JU88S, night fighters, Torpedo bombers, etc, etc, etc,.. this was one of the most versatile aircraft of the war just aknowledge that fact.
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Originally posted by Cobra:
Fishu and Nath,
You guys have hit on a great idea.....build your own damn sim!
With your combined vast knowledge, as demonstrated by your unending river of complaints..err opinions, I mean, prove that you two will have no trouble building your own sim!
Cobra
Sure thing, if someone gives me a coder and couple artists.
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Originally posted by Kieren:
The B-26B's role is well defined in AH- fast bomber, low alt, weak defensive armament. Result: easy to shoot down, but effective in the right hands. basically a bomber that can strafe targets, but quad .50' not very lethal.
Five .50 calibers for pilot to strafe with (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(two on both sides of cockpit and one in the nose next to the single .50 caliber on the plexiglass, look to the right side of that single .50 caliber sticking out of plexiglass)
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Originally posted by Staga:
This one next (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/aces/Blenheim_mkIV.jpg)
And "Bolo" would be nice too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
With no stinking british markings, how about FAF markings (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Duck,
you know I fly Axis and love Axis aircraft. It is not a matter of how good the Ju88A4 is, it is a matter of arena/scenarios balancing. IMHO, with the A6M5b the arena is perhaps more complete (and fun to fly in) but more unbalanced as well. The Zeke and the Ju88 are sitting ducks. If HTC will extend the plane set back to 1940-42, then it is ok. If they'll stick with the 1943-45 air war, IMHO, those two a/c are pretty useless ... like the Bf109F-4 and Macchi C.202 "Folgore".
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 07-21-2000).]
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Originally posted by Toad:
Fer pete's sake, you've got a HUGE staff of 6 people and this thing is sneaking up on being pay for play for what? 5 or 6 months?
Funny how they choose those famous US birds to be modelled first and then those perhaps most used LW planes, which are not necessarily that competive...
Wheres P-40 and other equivelant less performing planes?
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Originally posted by Duckwing6:
Take that JU88 Golly-geenit, just think about all the possible variants ! The JU88S, night fighters, Torpedo bombers, etc, etc, etc,.. this was one of the most versatile aircraft of the war just aknowledge that fact.
Maybe if we shut up, they might give us couple versatiles of Ju-88 for 1.05...
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Originally posted by Fishu:
Sure thing, if someone gives me a coder and couple artists.
Give?? Give???.....Oh no friend....pay for!
I'm sure thats what HT did when forming this company......put this ad in the paper...Looking for experienced coder and artist to donate and give their time to me free of charge.....
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Originally posted by Cobra:
Give?? Give???.....Oh no friend....pay for!
I'm sure thats what HT did when forming this company......put this ad in the paper...Looking for experienced coder and artist to donate and give their time to me free of charge.....
But sir... you told me to do the game, that means you should be my sponsor and should take care of the crew.
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Let us look at the Ju88 and Lancaster a bit.
The Lancaster
Lancaster had the following wartime versions:
Lancaster MkI
Lancaster MkI Special
Lancaster MkII
Lancaster MkIII
The Lancaster MkI is powered by four Merlin engines. Has an internal bombload of about 18,000lbs or 1 12,000lb bomb. It is defended by 8 .303 Brownings, 2 in the nose, 2 in the dorsal and 4 in the tail. If it is a early MkI it will have an additional 2 in a belly turret for a total of 10. Belly turret would be controled remotely by the dorsal gunner. Various radar packages were mounted on the MkI throughout WWII.
Lancaster MkI Special is a MkI that has been modified to carry the "bouncing" bomb or a single 22,000lb bomb. It is defended by 4 to 8 .303s. Less than 100 were built. I doubt HTC is going to model this one as a 22,000lb bomb might be too effective at having one bomber sneak attack a base and shut it down instantly.
Lancaster MkII was designed to use Centaur radial engines. This was designed in case the supply of Merlins proved to be inadequate. In the actual event, the US began to produce Merlins and the anticipated supply problem did not materialize. The MkII is in all other ways similar to the 8 gun MkI. About 500 MkIIs were built.
The Lancaster MkIII was built using US Packard built Merlins and, I believe, was built in Canada. It is otherwise similar to the 8 gun MkI.
These are all heavy bombers useful only in that role. The MkI Special being the most divergent of the lot. The MkI Special was used to destroy REALLY hardened targets such as U-Boat pens. As we can see, the 1945 Lancaster is esentially the same as the 1942 Lancaster.
The Ju88
The Ju88 is not something that I am an expert on, but I do know that it served in many roles and was one of the most successful aircraft of the war. I can't list out the versions like I did with the Lanc, but lets look at some of its roles. Medium bomber. Dive bomber. Anti-shipping. Zerstorer. Nightfighter.
The Ju88 served as a medium bomber throughout the war. The A-4 version that we are getting first was a medium bomber.
The Ju88 was equipped to be used as a dive bomber. It did not do steep dives like the Ju87, Val or Dauntless, but it could dive bombe. The Ju88A-4 was capable of this role.
Anti-shipping was also something that the Ju88 was used for. The A-4 version was capable of dropping torpedoes (don't you love versatility?). Of course we'll need ships before this is useful.
Later in the war, as Germany's situation worsened, the Ju88 was pressed into service as a Zerstorer. Unfortunately, while it was tough and carried a heavy punch, the American fighters could easily shoot it down. This was probably its least successful role. The A-4 is obviously not a Zerstorer, but the option is there for the future. All the guys complaining about the B-26 being used as a fighter are gonna hate this one.
The Ju88 served quite successfully as a cannon and radar equipped nightfighter, shooting down many British bombers. Once again, this is an option for the future that the anti-bombers-being-used-as-fighters-guys will hate.
With all of these roles available, HTC will be able to take the design and give many versions of it. It will have many roles availble eventually. The B-17 and Lancaster will always just be heavy bombers.
Sisu
-Karnak
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 07-21-2000).]
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Fishu-
The point is, you always come in and complain about what is wrong, you never mention what is right. You go on about an American bias- well, yeah, there probably is. There happens to be a lot more information printed and living examples of American and British aircraft left. This is made in America. What would you expect?
This is where people come to you and say "Make your own sim, if you have the depth of wisdom everyone else seems to lack. Make it 'historically accurate' with all the performance you know it should have". You have every bit the opportunity as anyone else that ventures into the business. No one owes it to you to be your sponsor- you owe it to yourself to develop something (concept, programming, etc) that investors will want to support.
Still, this isn't what bothers me. It is the anti-American snide remarks you continuously make. I can understand you being upset about the disparity in plane representation for the respective countries. What I don't understand is why you have such obviously strong anti-American feelings. Is there more to American-Finnish history than I know?
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I don't notice any "anti-American" comments in his posts, apart from the bias against German a/c.
Go look at Fishu's page dedicated to the B17...
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Not just this thread, I am talking accumulated over time. Heck maybe it's just me hearing the "American newbies can't stand to lose" "American this" "American that"... just a recurrent thread is all. Maybe I have a thing against Finns? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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You'd better not have something against Finns. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
FINLAND!!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
On a more serious note, did my posting about the Ju88 and Lancaster make any sense?
Sisu
-Karnak
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I really wonder how this thread went into something that looks like a lot of people are getting something into their throat.
Fact is: No Axis bomber will ever fulfill the heavy bomber role like the B-17 does. The axis didn't have the materials to build a fleet of four-engined, supercharged heavy bombers. Also, the axis never had heavy bombers that could carry the load of a Lanc. They never needed it IRL or scrapped the development early (the B-17 was developed in mid 30's, at the same time the german "Ural Bomber" project, intended on developing a heavy long range bomber, came to an end when General Wever was killed in a plane crash.
Otoh, the allies had few planes that were as versatile as the Ju 88 - of course, this versatility is also a drawback, jack of all trades, master of none. But with the introduction of the Ju 88 HTC has the option to introduce a good medium/dive/torpedo bomber, and a heavy night fighter and heavy Zerstörer.
The He 177, nice to have, would just be another heavy bomber that was crippled by the attempts to add dive bomber capabilities into the design. As we all know, this was a historic failure. The only successfull use of the He 177 are night attacks on England (London), where the He 177's climbed to high alt over the north sea and went into a swallow dive towards their targets to pick up speed and evade the excellent english night cover system.
Az
381st BG (H)
(http://www.link-goe.de/~m.henze/images/381bg.gif)
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Karnak-
Made perfect sense to me. I feel the same way. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Azrael-
You're right too. I responded to something that most others have wisely ignored. Fishu will make the remarks regardless, so no point was served.
Your evaluation of the bomber situation in AH is pretty good, IMHO. I do think Germany could have developed a competitive bomber, even as late as 1942, but they decided the interruption in production was not worthwhile (or possible later on). Tragic mistake, as Russia moved its factories beyond the Urals and Allied production was beyond most bombing attempts.
The He177 on paper was a great idea, and in the perfect world of AH would be good. Still, if I wanted to survive a raid I would take the B-17 instead of the He177 every time.
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So now Fish's big complaint is:
Quote:
"Funny how they choose those famous US birds to be modelled first and then those perhaps most used LW planes, which are not necessarily that competive..."
So to do it right, they should have followed a strict time line? Started with the LW in Spain and the Japanese in China? Then built up the planeset over the next few years till we got to 1945? Wow, that would have gotten the game off to a rousing start. The mass market would go nuts for this. So many people have pictures of Ratas and Claudes hanging on their walls and silk-screened on their T-shirts.
We'd probably have ten times the players that we do now. We might even be up to the Battle of Britain planeset next year...maybe.
Not only are you a master programmer and strategic thinker, you are one heck of a marketing guy too, Fish. Not.
quote:
---------------------------------------------Originally posted by Cobra:
Give?? Give???.....Oh no friend....pay for!
I'm sure thats what HT did when forming this company......put this ad in the paper...Looking for experienced coder and artist to donate and give their time to me free of charge.....
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Cobra, don't forget that Fishu is NOT a paying customer. HTC hasn't met his high standards for quality yet. Of course, that hasn't kept him from playing, by his own admission, under several various aliases in the "two-week free trial mode" <cough, FRAUD, cough> and keeping the complaints coming. Now you want him <cough, FREELOADER, cough> to actually pay someone to put his brilliant, flawless gameplay and flight models into computer code?
It's damn easy to sit on the sidelines and squeak. But I suspect he'd get a bit more respect down in Grapevine if he actually was a paying customer.
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Man, anybody else think Pyro's in a bad mood today? Switch to decaf bro.
Anyways. I am glad we are getting a Ju-88. Reason? Once you finish the A-4 it will be fairly easy to crank out a destroyer and torpedoe plane. All I ask is we get all the options (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(Inlcluding my two fish!)
[This message has been edited by SpyHawk (edited 07-21-2000).]
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And here I was just dreaming along of the possibilities of night time Lancaster raids on Country "X"s HQ/City with determined defenders in their Richards hunting down the elusive tommies. Ohh well I be so stoopid for being patient... I want it NOW, I want it YESTERDAY...... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Of course, that hasn't kept him from playing, by his own admission, under several various aliases in the "two-week free trial mode" <cough, FRAUD, cough> and keeping the complaints coming.
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Is this correct Fishu?
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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Originally posted by Kieren:
No one owes it to you to be your sponsor- you owe it to yourself to develop something (concept, programming, etc) that investors will want to support.
Gosh.. wasn't that enough clear joke ..
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Originally posted by Toad:
Cobra, don't forget that Fishu is NOT a paying customer. HTC hasn't met his high standards for quality yet. Of course, that hasn't kept him from playing, by his own admission, under several various aliases in the "two-week free trial mode" <cough, FRAUD, cough> and keeping the complaints coming. Now you want him <cough, FREELOADER, cough> to actually pay someone to put his brilliant, flawless gameplay and flight models into computer code?
Bah, I didn't had flown for months and tried 1.03 for week if I get intrested in playing AH again.
So you're really exagerating that 'several accounts'
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So true Pyro the guys a real whining jerk but who cares Drex is here finally a LW ace with character not a whining tight pocket dweeb like Leechu...er i me Fishu.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum8/HTML/000625.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum8/HTML/000625.html) lol u lie so much Fishu it's start'n to catchup with you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)gee leechu that post was dated 7/10/2000. Didn't you say somewhere in there that you stopped fly'n a couple of days ago.
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 07-21-2000).]
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Originally posted by Pyro:
Of course, that hasn't kept him from playing, by his own admission, under several various aliases in the "two-week free trial mode" <cough, FRAUD, cough> and keeping the complaints coming.
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Is this correct Fishu?
I quit playing AH couple days before beta ended, never even used my 2 weeks..
Now I try 1.03 for week and I have suddenly several various aliases...
http://nlm.cjb.net (http://nlm.cjb.net) - thats what I have been working & playing on since 01.04.2000.. and before that since I quit playing AH, I did play that particular game without modifications.
(I just wonder why he says I have admitted "several", I only had one for 1.03)
Anyway.. 1.04 sounds intresting.
[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 07-21-2000).]
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Originally posted by Kieren:
Not just this thread, I am talking accumulated over time. Heck maybe it's just me hearing the "American newbies can't stand to lose" "American this" "American that"... just a recurrent thread is all. Maybe I have a thing against Finns? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
By the way.. British spits and hispanos... *whine*
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Viagra
Fishu, you need to get some and take 1 or 2. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"So what do you post here? Poetic love letters?"
Ram
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Mino do you know where he can get it for FREE????
Fishu how come i always hear the words Freehost when i read your threads
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 07-21-2000).]
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Hehe... no kiddin' Ppit.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Originally posted by Torque:
Mino do you know where he can get it for FREE????
Fishu how come i always hear the words Freehost when i read your threads
Huh? what do you mean?
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why not model the Ju 88S-1 S-2 or S-3?
these were very high performance bombers and very fast
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Man, anybody else think Pyro's in a bad mood today? Switch to decaf bro.
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Maybe HTC actually has a plan for the sim's development and a chronological list of planes to be modeled to fit that said development. Maybe they have some things under development that we aren't privy to at the moment. Maybe they're planning to surprise us by introducing the Dora out of the blue like the P47. Maybe they actually do have a clue as to what they're doing after all. Maybe they're just getting a little tired of constantly having to defend each and every business decision they make. Maybe we just need to say thanks for their untiring efforts and extend them a little courtesy now and then.
T
Maybe I need some sleep.
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Originally posted by Torque:
Fishu how come i always hear the words Freehost when i read your threads
Torque how come I always think "Warp nine" when I see your plane ?
I had to say I don't have any proofs against you when I see a warping hawg but "freehost" was an illegal program and it looks like you accused Fishu ?
I'm sure you have some proofs ?
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btw...
If these bulletin boards could be usable only for paying customers (except free multip. and couple other) maybe we could have less bs here ?
Staga
(who's only reason to get Visa-card was this little game (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
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Hey I can't wait for the Lanc & the JU-88.
We used to run ju-88 raids up to & includeing jet sunday in warbirds. Properly setup and excuted they are a thing of beauty.
As to the rest, well every time I see a new release I see another picture of the puzzle snap into place. Little features, planesets, fixes, all slowly welding into a harmonous whole.
Can they see the whole picture? Shrug who knows, all I know is that they can see a lot more than I can. And as long as AH keeps growning like it is I'll keep voteing with my wallet every month.
ROCK ON HTC
(you think Pyro has an attitude, you ought to wake up next to me some morning!)
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I think it's interesting that someone who has only used a part of one "two week free trial" can critique every single new version of the game in detail as they come out and do so within days of each release. Flight models, gunnery, leathality, new plane decisions....he knows it all and can point out where it's in error. Without even playing! Superman!
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I loved the JU-88 in... um... "that other game", and flew it often. It's fast, climbs well, some versions may carry two torpedos, the mixed bomb load out was my favorite feature, and most importantly:
It fits into scenarios and a potential HA.
let me repeat that:
It fits into scenarios and a potential HA.
It fits into scenarios and a potential HA.
It fits into scenarios and a potential HA.
It fits into scenarios and a potential HA.
It fits into scenarios and a potential HA.
It fits into scenarios and a potential HA.
It fits into scenarios and a potential HA.
It fits into scenarios and a potential HA.
It fits into scenarios and a potential HA.
eskimo
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Pyro first of all, THANKS for giving us the Ju88!!! It means a nice and wanted addition to the planeset (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I disagree with people whining about A-4 coming but I can see their point somehow. I also think that a Ju188 would have been better, tho, as it is a latewar development of the Ju88, much more capable in bomber roles...
Originally posted by Pyro:
With the Ju 88, we get a good and ubiquitous plane that can be converted to many uses. We get a maneuverable bomber, a dive bomber, a torpedo bomber, and maybe even a Zerstorer. The last two are helpful because it gives us something to get by on while those things are developed in ernest. And yes, it is important for special events. As for the 177, we will do it in time, but it doesn't hold a candle to the 88 in terms of what it brings to the game. Sorry that you think the 88 is a poor bomber, we disagree on that.
Agreed to an extent, because with A-4 we get a medium early war bomber, and there is no other role for it than the medium bomber...of course in next version you can bring new Ju88s with the other roles (C for night fighting and Buff hunting, S for fast bombing, Zerstorer versions with 75mm PaK guns (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) etc)...but right now the A4 is IMHO bassically defenceless against arena planes.
See, it is a FAST bomber...for 1941. It isnt any faster than a B26 and it has way worse defensive guns. German bombers relied in speed as they basical defense...and Ju88A4 is slow for the current planeset. And I think that you may agree with me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Dont take me wrong, as I said ,Ju88A4 is a wonderful addition and a much asked one!...but I really get worried thinking ing Ju88s being hunted by F4U1-Cs...will be a slaughter.
Tell me, which version of the 177 you would like to see and why you think it's better than a Ju 88A-4.
Its just as I said avobe...He177 lacks the multirole possibilities that Ju88 has, but it is quite FAST bomber. So its surviving chances will be better than Ju88.
Dont take me wrong, I'd rather want to see a 88 coming than a 177. But you asked about advantages (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Anyway thanks for the plane, Pyro. Really apreciated (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Karnak:
The Ju88 is not something that I am an expert on, but I do know that it served in many roles and was one of the most successful aircraft of the war. I can't list out the versions like I did with the Lanc, but lets look at some of its roles. Medium bomber. Dive bomber. Anti-shipping. Zerstorer. Nightfighter.
The Ju88 served as a medium bomber throughout the war. The A-4 version that we are getting first was a medium bomber.
A medium bomber in 1940-41...dont forget that, Karnak. People here is right that A4 is too slow for a latewar planeset like the one we have now...And as I said in previous post, Germans relied in speed to protect their bombers from Ju88 onwards.
Later in the war, as Germany's situation worsened, the Ju88 was pressed into service as a Zerstorer. Unfortunately, while it was tough and carried a heavy punch, the American fighters could easily shoot it down. This was probably its least successful role. The A-4 is obviously not a Zerstorer, but the option is there for the future. All the guys complaining about the B-26 being used as a fighter are gonna hate this one.
My god...B26 was called the Flying squeak because its high wingloading! it killed novice crews because that!...B26s dogfighting is something to yell about because it is MIGHTY unrealistic...
Maneouvering Ju88A4s isnt that unrealistic...the plane was VERY nimble for a bomber and could do aerobatics never allowed in twin bombers before that. It had WAY less wingloading than B26...
So dont call that argument because it has no sense. B26s dogfighting with fighters is a monstrosity. Period. And that has nothing to do with Ju88.
With all of these roles available, HTC will be able to take the design and give many versions of it. It will have many roles availble eventually. The B-17 and Lancaster will always just be heavy bombers.
From my point of view, Karnak, people here doesnt yell because Ju88 is added to AH's planeset, but for the A4 chosen instead a later version. and while I love Ju88A4 added, and I dont mind it being the first instead other, I can see and understand the people who expected a more advanced one.
Of course there are good and bad ways to say the things...and this thread is not one of the bests in that regard.--------------->Said by the whinin champion of AH (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Dunno Toad...
Maybe free multiplayer ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
In company I work for we have plenty of "yes mens"...
Wonderful,great,cool,wonderful....
Keep continuing that and see how company goes down...
Somekind of critic is allways good.
If you cant take the heat get out of fire (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Cool down and have a bottle of lemonade (Coors,Bud etc...Those are not beer (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif))
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RAM,
down boy, down.
You took that post in all the wrong ways. I like the Ju88 and was supporting its capabilities in all of those roles. I know it is a 1941 aircraft, but I'm sure later ones will come, probably quite quickly (I hope). I have absolutely no problem with the Zerstorer and Nightfighter versions of the Ju88 and hope to see them in AH. On of the advantages of the Ju88 is its manueverability.
I hope that a later version of the Ju88 shows up in 1.05, or in a patch to 1.04. What I was taking exception to was the wanton, lets disregard historical facts, pro-Luftwaffe things that some people said, such as the Lancaster being a late war bomber. It would have been nice to start with an Ju88A-14, but such was not to be. The Luftwaffe fans also seem entirely to anti-RAF, e.g. if we can only have an early versionof our best bomber, then the Brits (who actually built big bombers) should only get a 1937 light bomber that proved to be a complete failure and had no impact on the war, they should only get the Blenheim. Now, if they had suggested the Wellinton, I wouldn't have minded, but the totally over the top ranting was annoying. As I pointed out, there isn't much difference between the various Lancs, so HTC can focus on new versions of the Ju88.
I do understand their frustration at geting a 1941 bomber, I just don't see the situation as being that bleak.
BTW RAM, thanks for reading and responding to my post.
Most people seem to have been caught up in the anti-Fishu idiocy. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Sisu
-Karnak
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 07-22-2000).]
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JU-88 in he main?
BAH!-who cares about the main arena uses for it,add the SpitI,Hurricane,109E and ME-110-we can then do the Battle of Britain,Malta,and other events in the SEA. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I also seem to remember the JU 88 as being a tough bird to kill in WB due to its ability to take damage. Bring it on HTC!
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Jihad
48th FG "Checkertails" (http://members.tripod.com/checkertail/)
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Originally posted by Toad:
I think it's interesting that someone who has only used a part of one "two week free trial" can critique every single new version of the game in detail as they come out and do so within days of each release. Flight models, gunnery, leathality, new plane decisions....he knows it all and can point out where it's in error. Without even playing! Superman!
I haven't been even posting much on the board before V1.03.. hm.. patch 3 probably.
Now when I begin posting after a week (maybe 2-3 days over that week), I have suddenly been posting frequently for last few months..
Funny thing.
I do read message board every week at least, even if I don't play, but I don't critisize game if I don't know.
I might sound idiot and so on, but I still do put a line for that whats the truth and whats lie.. honestly, I don't like lying at all, even slightest lie makes me very sad if I have to.
for example, when I've been making mod, theres been few who has wanted to help me, and it is been *real* hard for me to tell them that they don't qualify for it yet.
Also, if I say something about game when I haven't played it, I also have included there "I've heard...", like I have done.
I do talk with people, and I do also include something into the message telling that its not been me, but someone else, who I trust, telling me so.. (usually more than just one), I have told that "i've heard" etc.
I am sorry if I sound idiot, but uh.. thats sort of bad habbit, which I am trying to work off, but don't tell me that I am liar if you don't like me though, thats bit far off.
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For truth, I am delighted to have Ju-88, it's something I've wanted to have for while.. but I must admit too that I we're bit dissapointed when we got A-4.
I am keeping thumbs up for new versions of Ju-88 though..
So if nobody of you has recently noticed, I have let off criticism on HTCs Ju-88.. latest message giving a hint on that was one where I said "maybe if we shut up, we might get new versatiles of Ju-88 in 1.05", or something close to that. (sorry, too lazy find it from the messages)
Also to say something clearly.. 1.03 is most promising, even 109 models satisfies me.
Gun models are very fine now also, except for Hispano anti-tank capabilities, which probably is my only 'real' complain.
Few still thinks that I mind bad about guns in A/A role, but no.. those feels correct now.. Hispanos aren't such 1 hit killers as those used to be and fifties are in realistic ranges.
But I really were waiting for Ju-88S or some other than A. (perhaps HTC will glue up new versions from A-4, like they've done with others)
Ostwind really amazed me.. its so rare and they did it, boy, favorite toy for me as flak gun.
(maybe this should get a new thread now?)
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Fishu-
Thank you. That was very refreshing, and at least lets me see you in another dimension. The way it sounded before, nothing measured up. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Kieren:
Fishu-
Thank you. That was very refreshing, and at least lets me see you in another dimension. The way it sounded before, nothing measured up. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Uhh.. been on bad mood lately I guess, been kinda figuring whats up with me..
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I don't mind seeing US or whatever high power stuff modelled first. I'm such a lousy fighter pilot (= I don't care to learn) that I usually pick up the most inferior piece of iron to fly - that could get a few surprise kills.
As to the Ju-88 discussion - heh, why not give us the experimental Ju-287 jet bomber with it inverted V -wings (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And an unrelated question to this thread: How _do_ you know if someone is a paying customer or not? Can you (excluding HTC staff) somehow see, for example, if I am a paying customer or a 2 week trial user?
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Originally posted by Citabria:
why not model the Ju 88S-1 S-2 or S-3?
these were very high performance bombers and very fast
Ya, wouldnt it be as easy to roll back as forward if they want the earlier version later...
he he
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Originally posted by Staga:
Dunno Toad...
Maybe free multiplayer ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
<No excuses for the length..some things need to be said.>
Well Staga ask yourself how long we've had working multiplayer? Then check and see how long the complaining about each release has been going on. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
You may think of me as a "yes" man...and that doesn't bother me a bit.
But I'll tell you how I look at it. My leadership training has been of the "Praise in public, critique in private" school. When I have a real bone to pick with HTC about something that I have first hand RL experience with (flying), then I either E-Mail or phone them and explain my view. We don't always agree; in fact, we rarely agree (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) but I get it off my chest and I DON'T RUN DOWN THE PRODUCT IN THE PUBLIC FORUM OF THEIR OWN BBS.
Now, when items come up for discussion on the BBS, I will add my _opinion_ if it is in an area in which I have some personal knowledge, experience or expertise. But again, I never try to claim any EVIL INTENT or DELIBERATE MIS-PROGRAMMING on the part of HTC. I also try to point out that it is my opinion.
Overall, I think HTC has a dream. They are trying to build the best WW2 Online Flight Sim available...with a total staff of 6. Think about that and how far this has come in 8 months.
They may get it exactly right, they may be wildly successful. They may fail to attract enough support and have to give up their dream...and we'll be much poorer for that.
I'll tell you what though...I'm DAMN GLAD someone who can program this stuff HAS this dream! This small crew has the track record and history that shows if anyone can do it, these just might be the ones.
I hope they succeed beyond all expectation! Why? Simply because I love WW2 aviation and air combat online TOO! I wanna play!
Now, if we just all squeak, squeak, squeak on this board, continually telling them how FUBAR-ED they are and how they deliberately & maliciously favor this over that....how do you think this story will end? Huh? Are you helping build the dream we all share?
If they get something wrong, the truly knowledgeable folks in the crowd point it out immediately. It's already happened with a few of the flight models, some of the historical configurations, etc., etc., etc. They LISTEN and they FIX what can be shown incorrect.
The main point is that it doesn't have to be an aggressive, acrimonius confrontation. It CAN be done with style and class, with a willing, helpful attitude, with dedicated testing and a desire to promote the DREAM to even greater glory, for us all to share.
What gets me riled? <as some of you may have noticed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)> People that HAMMER them for trying to do their best. Do any of you REALLY believe that better aircraft are NOT coming for non-allied countries? Only the idiots would entertain that thought. I can't explain their timetable for aircraft release...and I don't care.
I know that if this succeeds, SOMEDAY we're going to have a full planeset. With the HELP of this community it's going to be damn good. (My personal fav is the BOB era. But I'm willing to wait as long as it takes.)
In the meantime, I'm going to play as much as I can with whatever they provide for a mere $30 a month. Sit on the sidelines and squeak if you like, but this is still the best WW2 online sim currently available. I'm playing.
...and I drink Scotch, not lemonade. The only Finns I hung around in the USAF didn't drink lemonade either. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Now that I've concluded my rant, I think I'll go have one! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Have a nice day!
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Originally posted by Fishu:
I haven't been even posting much on the board before V1.03.. hm.. patch 3 probably.
Now when I begin posting after a week (maybe 2-3 days over that week), I have suddenly been posting frequently for last few months..
Funny thing.
Yep, pretty damn funny...
Because a simple search turns this up:
General Discussion 240+ posts, first one 10/07/99, last one 07/21/00, with multiple posts in every single month since October 99. (240+ because using "any date" only shows 200 but using "last 30 days" shows 40 that don't go back to where the 200 left off..so there's a few more.
Aircraft & Vehicles104 posts, 1st one 10/25/99, last one 07/21/00, multiple posts in every single month since October 99.
Gameplay/Feedback 74 posts, 1st on 10/29/99, last on 07/21/00, multiple posts in every single month since October 99.
...and that's where you'll find the continuous, poisonous "Fishu Attitude".
The rest of the message I just quoted is equally full of BS.
Now as for your following message, I'll echo Kieren: "Thank you. That was very refreshing, and at least lets me see you in another dimension. The way it sounded before, nothing measured up."
I'm now done "kicking" you on the board Fishu IF you've decided to switch over to positive, helpful, NON-ACCUSATORY, NON-ACRIMONIUS critiques and suggestions to HTC. I think you do have something to contribute..if you can drop the attitude.
Join the other guys trying to make this the best sim available...and be patient. Your planes are coming...and I support you in your desire for top-line LW aircraft. They need to be there and not just as "perks."
I'll welcome you in the arena anytime you choose to join up and play. I don't expect to be good buddies with ya, but hey that's life.
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I just think you should all take a breath and go back and look at Naths post. It was not nearly so bad as is being made out. It was reasonable and offered a solution that seems perfect.
Kieren you started introducing the conspiracy flame in this thread, and pyro started the nasty stuff.
We are all thick skinned enough to take it here. We all let loose with the ronson from time to time. But there is no cause to get all defensive. Just a
"We are starting with the earlier Junkers cause we need an early war bomber to start moving to an early war plane set and the JU is the best one. And I like it...
Given our limited resources I put a greater emphasis on developing the early war then having a 1944 axis bomber.
You will get your 1944 version at a later date.
Along with the 75mm pak for the gondola.
"
Taken with out context it just seems like a weird decision. No one should be offended or supprised that consternation was expressed. It was mild. Alternatives where offered, bout as good as you could expect I think.
Nothing like what would happen if we got the Hampden instead of the Lancaster.
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Originally posted by Toad:
Now, when items come up for discussion on the BBS, I will add my _opinion_ if it is in an area in which I have some personal knowledge, experience or expertise. But again, I never try to claim any EVIL INTENT or DELIBERATE MIS-PROGRAMMING on the part of HTC. I also try to point out that it is my opinion.
Funny, but you seem to have evil intents against me when you dont have expertise, experience or knowledge about me.
I do at least wan't to know for sure if guy has really done this and that before I say.
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Originally posted by Toad:
Yep, pretty damn funny...
Because a simple search turns this up:
General Discussion 240+ posts, first one 10/07/99, last one 07/21/00, with multiple posts in every single month since October 99. (240+ because using "any date" only shows 200 but using "last 30 days" shows 40 that don't go back to where the 200 left off..so there's a few more.
Aircraft & Vehicles104 posts, 1st one 10/25/99, last one 07/21/00, multiple posts in every single month since October 99.
Gameplay/Feedback 74 posts, 1st on 10/29/99, last on 07/21/00, multiple posts in every single month since October 99.
I wrote most of the stuff during beta times, then I've been dropping replies sometimes on some topics until couple weeks ago.
Did I somewhere say that I haven't posted any stuff earlier or some posts during the time I was not playing AH? (btw. I did not critisize stuff when I didn't play, because I didn't have knowledge, but now I seem to have wrote forever these messages, funny)
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Hiya Toad
You may think of me as a "yes" man
No I don't (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I DON'T RUN DOWN THE PRODUCT IN THE PUBLIC FORUM OF THEIR OWN BBS
Neither do I but IMO bbs's one purpose is to help discussion about "Gameplay feedback and issues"
Are you helping build the dream we all share?
I think so.
In spring there was a time I payed 5 persons monthly fee 'cause I got the Visa-card(of course they sended some money afterwards).
Now I pay only 2 (my own and my co-worker's).
I'm trying really hard to have more my friends to try this fine little sim and I'm sure if they take that 2 week offer they're "hooked" after that.
Peace and happiness (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Staga
[edit]
Sit on the sidelines and squeak if you like, but this is still the best WW2 online sim currently available. I'm playing.
You didn't meant me didn't you ?
If I remember right only issues I "squeak" were buffs half way to moon (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
...and I drink Scotch, not lemonade. The only Finns I hung around in the USAF didn't drink lemonade either (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
uhm... well... got J.Walker and some others in my home bar thought Vodka is the one I like (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Ring the bell if you're in neighborhood (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 07-23-2000).]
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Pongo-
Guilty as charged. Is was mild, but intended to bring about a little humor to something that appeared to be going awry.
Seriously though, I form my opinions of people based on the total of postings and experiences I have with them, not one isolated thread or comment. I also try to assume the best in people. Never would it be my intent to personally attack anyone. I may be direct at times, but never do I try to hurt someone. That's about as "personal" as I ever get.