Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Gabber88 on November 16, 2002, 04:01:47 PM
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How i can evase the other plane in the game with the Fw190A?
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I fly the 190A-5 quite a bit, and it has one of the best roll rates in the game, which makes scissoring a favourite evasive move. For most planes, scissoring is only really effective when the attacker is coming in behind you with considerably higher speed. In the A-5, and most of the other 190's however, as long as you aren't too slow, scissoring works well because the attacker won't be able to change direction as quickly as you, and thus won't be able to follow your movements, and thus, with throttle control, you can force the overshoot on even an equal-speed attacker because you bleed speed more quickly.
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what is scissor?
the 190A5 is for B&Z or manuver fight?
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The A-5 is best used as an aggressive BnZ fighter, where its great snap roll allows it to track last-minute evasives by the target much better than most other aircraft. The A-5 is the most maneuverable 190, which may enable you to surprise people who think you're a D-9, but it is still by no means a good turner at low speed, and ideally you want to stay above about 250 TAS (true airspeed, indicated by the red line on the gauge). If you do get tangled in a furball, try to use the vertical as the 190 seems to perform better there than in flat-turning manuevers. I've been very successful in rope-a-dope manuevers with it.
The scissors is an aggressive evasive manuever where the aim is not to disengage and escape but rather to turn the tables on the attacker and go on the offensive. It consists of banking back and forth in quick succession, trying to get out of synch with your pursuer and eventually gain angles and ideally arrive on his six. There are many variations on it, but the idea is represented here:
(http://allgamefiles.hypermart.net/madhatters/training%20files/combat_tactics/Scissors_files/scissors-anim.gif)
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There are a few things to be considered when taking evasive action in the Fw190. Among its contemporaries, the Fw190 is almost always has a decisive edge over the other in high speed maneuvering. For instance, the A-5 has much better handling at high speeds than the Spitfire MkIX or Spitfire MkV. The USAAF fighters P-47s and P-51s are well matched in this category, but they lack in pure maneuverability compared to the Spitfires, thus, it is pretty much a fair shot when one has to face them in low/mid speed situations.
In short, any plane that turns better than the Fw190 can be outmaneuvered at high speeds, and any plane that is faster than the Fw190 can be fought with traditional, tight dogfighting techniques.
However, in the MA environment where the majority of fighters are from 1944~1945, even the Fw190D-9 lacks in a pure dogfight/maneuvering contest. For instance, one of the most common fighters in the MA, La-7, is superior in almost every aspect against the D-9 except high alt maximum speed.
Therefore, when going into evasive action, the 190 pilot has to judge carefully whether his objective is to evade and run to safety, or to evade and engage. The "traditional scissors" as depicted in Ecliptik's pic is not a very good choice for the Fw190, because as you can see, traditional scissors maneuvering has a lot to do with low speed handling and turning ability, not just roll speeds. You may outroll planes like Spitfires and force a temporary overshoot, but in the end, as the speed drops lower, the Spitfire will start gaining decisive and irrecoverable advantages over the 190.
Thus, in most cases, the tactics in the Fw190 is simple: try not to show your rear end to anyone, and if you do, use rolls to evade and escape, not evade and engage.
A good example of such is utilizing short series of rolls at spiral dive. Start shallow turns with the nose pitch under the horizon. As you catch up speed, you will begin to feel the G forces causing partial grey outs at the border of your vision.
If an enemy is following and gaining on you in your spiral dive, it means he is turning with you at an even faster speed. As he closes in, tighten your turn. When you feel the enemy is about to open fire, tighten the turn with one last pull and roll 180 degrees opposite and dive away.
The chances are, the enemy behind you cannot see your change of directions because of the black out, or, cannot follow your roll due to high speed. If the enemy somehow manages to roll with you, keep the dive going and roll 180 degrees again. Sucker him into a "chicken" game diving to deck, rolling out of the way 180 degrees every time the enemy seems to have a gun solution on you. Not many pilots can follow the 190 doing this and saddle up behind. Most of the times they give up the chase in fear of crashing, or losing excessive altitude and becoming a target of another plane nearby. Then, you dive away, extend to safety, and plan your next move.
Such is one example how the evasive rolls can be utilized.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
If an enemy is following and gaining on you in your spiral dive, it means he is turning with you at an even faster speed. As he closes in, tighten your turn. When you feel the enemy is about to open fire, tighten the turn with one last pull and roll 180 degrees opposite and dive away.
Very well said Kweassa. U can also try to make a short barrel role at the end of the tightening turn to end up right behind the enemy. This often works very well for me in my beloved 190A5.
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Ok...
At which distance i set his convergence (190A5) and is best with all 4 cannon or only the MG151/20?
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I fly the A5 rather often and find it the most challenging of my regular rides.
I don't hold much with scissors, I understand the basics but I think I lack the experience. And besides, in my three months of AH I very rarely overshoot. Having said this, I think Kweassa's post says it all. Roll rate works best when employed defensively. The A5 also climbs very well and when it is fast it can really dance.
What I don't like are the cannon. Mg151 cannons (main armament) lack the killing power of the Hispano cannon found on British fighters and the A5 doesn't really allow for a good tracking shot, at least not when you want to live. Furthermore ballistics suck so I really have to adjust my aim to compensate.
To answer you question, convergence of 450 works best for me in the A5. Leave the extra cannon, the are of an older model and the ballistics and killing power are even worse than that of Mg151's. Besides that, they carry only 55 rounds of ammo each, after that it's dead weight.
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What hogenbor said. Dont use the extra cannons (MG FF). They only add weight and drag.
U can set ur convergence for the cannons even to 350 cause u'll have to shoot at short distances caused by the bad ballistics of the 20mm MG 151.
The MG's are mounted above the engine so set the convergence to 650 -if u'll ever use them ;)
Only fire one kind of cannon at the time cause if fired both (MG and 20mm) it's really hard to get used to the ballistics of the cannons.
One additional tip: burn ur AFT fuel tank first.
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One thing i forgot. Try the Macchi 205 too!
It's my favorite ride at the moment (and i think it's the most beautifull plane).
Both the 190A5 and the Veltro are IMO the planes that really give u the most fun cause u can use them as fairly good Boom and Zoomers (not as good as 190A8) against the good turners (N1K and Spit) or u can use them as turn fighters against the Boom and Zoomers (109G, P47, P51, 190D9).
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How the hell do you just fire one set of cannons at a time?
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Inn, the Fw190A-5 has the 2x MG151/20 option.
But in reality, this configuration was for jabo 190s, with outerboard MG-FFs removed + underbelly bomb racks(these racks become standard equipment for 190s with the Fw190A-8).
Some people note that they prefer 2x 20mm option, but frankly in my case I rarely notice any difference between the 2x 20mm and 4x 20mm options.
As Hristo analyzed before, MG-FFs, though slow firing with little ammo load, seemingly worthless.. is substantial firepower - 4 cannons and 2 cannons is certainly different. In my case, risking 5~6% loss in climb rates or speed, maneuverability is better than doing away with the outboard cannons totally.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Inn, the Fw190A-5 has the 2x MG151/20 option.
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As Hristo analyzed before, MG-FFs, though slow firing with little ammo load, seemingly worthless.. is substantial firepower - 4 cannons and 2 cannons is certainly different. In my case, risking 5~6% loss in climb rates or speed, maneuverability is better than doing away with the outboard cannons totally.
Ahh, was hoping someone had a trick to fire the mg-ff's seperatly. I have to agree with you on the MG-FF's. At long range, the MG-FF's are worthless, but for those close-range snapshots, it's worth having them. I've never been able to feel the difference in performance between the two options, except in hitting power.
Deudel's tip is a bit more important than he makes it out to be. Burning the aft fuel tank first is absolutly essential, especially if you plan on turning at all. Burning the forward tank first(Like the fuel autoselector does) will leave the plane seeming heavily loaded.
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Does anyone have test data (climb, top speed) when using MG FF or not?
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I know the MG-FF's have no effect on top speed. The affects on accelleration, climb, turning ability, etc are all fairly negligable IMO.
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I almost never take the MG-FF's, mainly because the extra weight probably does hurt your acceleration a little bit, even if it isn't immediately noticable. The extra punch at close ranges is handy, but at any range at or within my convergence (D400), even the 151's by themselves only require a few pings to shoot off a tail or some other vital control surfaces, and the ammo of the MG FF's mean that you'll only have them for your first couple of engagements.
And yes, I'll also reiterate the importance of burning the aft tank first. As long as your aft tank is full, you'll always seem heavy.
Personally the A-5 is one of my favourite planes, I enjoy flying it more than the D-9 because its abilities give a bit of a wider range of tactical options depending on your opponent, which allows you to get good practice in all styles of fighting. And with its high ENY (36 I think), it works well as a perk-harvester. :)
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Here is how I look at it. I always take the extra 2 cannons, even though there isn't much ammo for them. Do they have an effect on performance? Yes. Is it a earth-shaking, mind-shattering effect? No.
It has been a while since anyone did testing on it, but I think the results were it costs you about 5% slower acceleration, 5% slower climbing, and some small effect on turning.
In other words, it isn't a significant effect. La-7s will outclimb you with 4 cannons... they'll also out-climb you with 2. Same for a 109. A n1K or spit will still out turn you whether or not you bring 2 cannons or 4.. so why give up that firepower?
I can't think of any scenario (bar one, highly unlikely one) where choosing the 4 cannon loadout would have a significant effect on your planes performance that would cause you to lose the fight. That would be if you somehoe run into some other pilot of the same skill level as you, in a co-E state, and you both try the exact same moves but he only has 2 cannons.
To be quite honest, if you are a good pilot, you can easily make up the ~5% difference the 4 cannon loadout 'imposes'.
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What is the difference between 190's fighting style and 109's fighting style?
Whit which plane of these two i can get a lot of victories???:confused:
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Whit which plane of these two i can get a lot of victories???
This is a stupid question in this case, as it is pretty much personal preference and fighting style.
The main difference between the 190 and the 109 is high-speed manueverability. The 190, especially the A5, turns wonderfully at higher speed, making it ideal as a BnZ plane. The 109, and specifically the 109G-10, becomes very sluggish at high speeds and compresses easily. Turning a 109 at high speed is akin to trying to swim in thick mud. Go into a steep dive with a G-10 and before long your controls will lock up and you may find yourself in an unrecoverable dive. However, the 109 accelerates and climbs extremely well.
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I flew the 190a8 last tour, along with the A5 and F model, and fell in love with the a8, particularly with all 4 cannons and the machine guns. At distances less than d400, I could usually knock off a vital part of my target with a split-second burst, such as in a snap shot. At distances less than d300, my target exploded. The effect of the extra firepower on aircraft handling was, to me, not important since I never tried to turn the A8. I would climb to 20k on drop tank and look down for a target, find one, dive on him from the side or behind, shoot, then climb slightly or maintain level flight to extend a safe distance (depending on the speed of the target).
Do not try to turn with Mustangs, P-47s, or the "real" turners: Spitfires, N1K2s, Zeroes, Hellcats. When the FW gets slow, it wants to torque-roll to the left, so you'll stall before the P-47 and P-51 will. On the other hand, at high speeds, you can roll out faster than they can and change your direction.
Use the zoom feature to track your target, but use the unzoomed view when you get closer in. Also keep an eye on your speed because you could end up in the dirt if you go too fast in your dive.
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Wow, some great posts here. I wish every thread in this forum was like this one.
I too used to take the D9 out almost all of the time, while I stayed away from the A5, primarily because of the MGs. I've learned to harass my enemy with MGs and it's nice to have some cowl mounted MGs with a little umph. I have, on many mnay occasions, taken out planes with just my 13mm MGs. HOWEVER, I began to become disillusioned with the Dora because you're really only good for one engagement before you have to run and regain alt. In the MA this is no good. That being said, the Dora is still the cherry-picker's choice. I fell in love with the 190 in the A8 and I still fly it quite a bit (though I leave the 30mms at home now and take the 4 MG151s), however all your posts are compelling me to jump in an A5 real soon and see what she's got.
Also, it's true that the transition from 190 to C.205 is pretty seamless. The 205 is my ride of choice this tour and possibly the most underestimated plane flying in AH. While I don't doubt that 190s dominated many planes over WWII Europe, 205s are much better tailored to the frantic, overpopulated skies of the MA.
EDIT: I suck at jabo-ing so when my squad calls for an all-jaob mission, I grab an F8, make a half-assed drop on target and grab for incoming bogeys ;) tell no one.
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Info I stole from Urchin. :p
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What is the difference between 190's fighting style and 109's fighting style?
With which plane of these two i can get a lot of victories???
The Fw190 and Bf109 can be considered that they are in a "mirror image" relationship. Their performance is exactly the opposite of each other. :) What the 109 cannot do, the 190 can. What the 190 cannot, the 109 can. Maybe that is why they were used in combinations with such deadly effect in Europe.
Bf109s, though superior in many aspects, are tricky planes. They need much experience to be handled effectively, and also have some personality quirks. In the defensive, the 109 is awesome, probably one of the best, if not THE best plane for pure defensive purposes - grabbing local air superiority, disrupting incoming attacks, getting quickly into attack position by climbing and etc etc. However, for purely offensive purposes, especially the ones that require a distinct "hunt down and kill" characteristic, the 109s are a bit lacking.
For one thing, the hinderance in controls at speeds over 400mph almost absolutely prevents the 109s from simply chasing down an enemy and knocking it out of the sky. When the superb USAAF planes can just see the enemy below, immediately start the attack by diving down with lightning speed, and chase down any enemy that attempts to escape easily, the 109s have to plan an attack course, carefully manage the decent speed so it maintains between 390mph and 410mph... very cumbersome. This process takes a lot of time, and most often gives the enemy time to prepare for the attack. In the worst conditions the enemy will choose to run to deck diving like mad... and the 109 can't follow this.
In my view, the 109s are like guardians of the sky. Passive against a running enemy, but aggressive against an attacking one. They can make the enemy run, they can corner him into a disadvantage and urge them to go away, keeping the skies clear and secure for other friendlies.
But making someone go away is not necessarily the same as actually shooting him down ;) Thus, the limits in 109s - poor fire power(even with the MK108 30mm cannons), fragile airframe, tendency to lock up at high speeds, horrible roll rate and elevator authority at high speeds... - makes them an inappropriate for a pilot seeking for kills and victories.
It is an irony that the world's highest scoring ace comes from the world's poorest offensive aircraft of the era.. but considering that he was almost always a defender, assigned to knock out or chase away the attackers, in the world's best defensive fighter of the era(yes.. worst in pure offensive, but best in pure defensive!) maybe it's not that strange after all. Hartmann was a careful pilot who flew for a very long time, very many sorties, and not an aggressive slick like Marseilles. It took average three sorties for him to get a single kill. Not very many multiple kills, but always careful, cautious, planned sure-kills.
Compared with the P-51, the 109s traits are also "mirrored" upon the plane. The P-51 was not an ideal plane for instant defensive purposes - average at best in climb rate and lacking in pure acceleration compared to LW planes(meaning: will become disadvantaged soon when facing a plane like the 109 1 vs 1). In AH, a skilled G-10 pilot can very easily(yes! very easily!!) overcome a P-51D even when it starts attacking at higher altitudes. In a 1vs1 battle of pilots with simular skill ranges, I'd bet on the pilot flying the G-10.
But once the P-51s came in disciplined groups, ready at high altitudes thanks to its superior high-alt performance, with formiddable fire power from six highly accurate/powerful heavy machine guns, amazing capabilities at high speed maneuvers, it became a superior hunter/killer - something the 109 can never become.
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The Fw190 is almost EXACTLY the opposite of Bf109s. Not very surprising considering that the chief of the design staff, Dr. Kurt Tank, was an ambitious man seeking glory by making a better, different plane from the German engineer's folk hero, Dr. Messerschmidt.
While the image of the 109 is vintage, tricky and sensitive, the 190 is ultra-modern, rugged, tough and clear and simple. With the exception of the early 190s, as a whole the 190 was never so well climbing as 109s. However, while the Allies' evaluation on the 109s were never friendly, the 190 was treated with great respect from its adversaries. During the time of it's first combat, the 190 was a super-secret "UFO" that shocked the English defenders of the channel, almost as much as the 262s shocked the USAAF pilots who first met it. It used the world's most advanced technologies in aircraft designs/mechanisms, with the highlight being the installation of the Kommandogerat system - which can virtually be considered as an onboard analogue computer for plane management.
The 190 was a simple plane to fly. No "personality quirks", such as the 109s being required constant rudder input. It'd fly straight and firm. While the importance of high speed maneuvering and advanced ACM(opposed to the traditional, low-speed "knife fight" engagements) was experimented and applied in all areas of the War, from the Pacific to the Atlantic and Mediterranean, the 190 was the first plane that was designed efficiently enough to utilize its full potential for the new type of air combat tactics - it was fast, it lacked in sustained turns, but at high speeds where turning was not a relevant concern, the manueverability was excellent. It was "the Caddillac of the skies" before P-51s or P-47s entered service.
Unlike the 109, it climbed at an average rate, but the high speed handling was excellent and reliable. And of course, it's rate of roll was phenomenal - though it is a given fact that no 190s could ever out turn a Spitfire, the first impressions of the 190 to the pilots of the RAF was "an unidentified enemy plane, faster than the 109s, amazing maneuverability" Considering that the term "maneuverability" usually associates itself with "capability to turn", it is no doubt that the RAF pilots were more than amazed when they met planes that could out maneuver the Spitfires at high speeds, without having to turn, using its tremendous high speed handling and rolls.
The relatively simple handling and characteristics, and advanced management systems of the 190s also boosted the confidence of young, under-experienced pilots.
The 109 was "vague" - it climbed excellent, gaining alt advantage was easy, often contributing to situations in which the 109 seemed advantageous, and it could also turn reasonably well. The options for engagement given to 109s were numerous - this meant the pilot was required a lot of experience to choose which tactic he would use in the 109. The vague and "hybrid" characteristic of the plane lured many young pilots into making wrong choices.
However, in the 190s, their strengths were clear, as the limits were also clear. Thus, stick with its strengths, avoid the limitations, fly and attack with speed, disengage/evade and run when disadvantaged in 190s - simple and easy to understand tactics in this plane.
The 190 was also a rugged, tough plane, and armed to the teeth with four cannons and two machine guns. In a short opportunity the 190s could knock out enemies which the 109s, due to limited firepower, cannot. It's weapons load was also immense, 500~700 rounds of 20mm cannons and 900~1300 rounds of machine guns - this also was favorable for the inexperienced pilots who were lacking in sophisticated gunnery the "experten" of the 109s boasted.
The 190 was capable as a hunter/killer, and while the image of the 109 stays with the defensive "guardian", the 190s, as their nickname "wurger - butcher bird" appropriately points out, was a very offensive plane. Though the faltering conditions of the late war Luftwaffe limited its development, the 190 met its final destination with the "long-nosed 190s" and the Ta152. The 190D was praised from the endangered pilots of the Luftwaffe as "equal to the Mustangs", and the Ta152 is nowadays considered as the "ultimate evolution for propellor engined fighter". No doubt if the war went on longer, with the conditions a bit more favorable to the Luftwaffe, the 190 would seriously, possibly have become "the best fighter of WWII".
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:) What was intended as a simple explanation somehow got carried away into a long essay, but I hope this can help some of the AH fans looking for background information on 109s and 190s.
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Kweassa, I thoroughly enjoy reading each and every one of your posts in the H&T forum. I just thought I'd throw that out there.
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My god thats a big post :eek:
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Kweassa, excellent post. I was so inspired by your writeup on the 190 that I flew it this morning with great success.:) ....woz30bat
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LOL
dweeb luftweenies doin the split S dance against my Yak 9T ALWAYS die:p ...
only the 1's running FAST don't DIE:eek:
on the serious side...FOLLOW the best 190 drivers around if you wanna learn how to fly it.
lots of good 190 drivers out there