Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: BlckMgk on November 17, 2002, 11:05:35 AM
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Since the new Bomber system was implemented, a few have noticed a tapering off of bomber activity.
Suggestions to help increase activity:
1) Centralize all supplies (Ammo/Fuel). By this I mean 2-5 factories of each "type" localized in the mainland of the bases which support all the bases. Removing fuel independent bases. So to effectively disable a countries fuel/ammo you'll need to bomb these factories, instead of the bases. Hardness would be increased and size also, to make them that much more difficult to destroy. As far as captured bases, you'll need to take over the factory which controls those particular bases (i.e. Pizza Map, but move control to factory, not bases), or a constant Goon Supply will be needed to make them operational. Factories should have a ground vehicle capabilities, as well as manable flak guns, and their anti-aircract airtilery numbers should be increased. Maybe even allow base/factories to increase the number of guns by flying "Parts and Mechanics" so defenses may be built.
(***edit*** After reading I do know this would mean total redesign of all maps, which may make this just a pipe dream, but just wanted to know I do understand the effort that would take to make changes of the sort ***edit***)
2) If supply lines are destroyed towards a particular base, they go on an "Attrition" plan, and counters are implace to show how much fuel/ammo is available before fuel/ordenance goes to 75%, then 50%, then 25% (Gallons or None available for Ord). This would be better implemented in the new "mission" arena, not in the Main arena.
Other suggestion that was mentioned above.
Allow bases/factories to have a particular "upgradeability" to strengthen front lines, this would help create more activity for those willing to setup defensive plans, instead of only offensive plans. Thus.. those bases which are just captured will not be at their full strength, and will be vulnerable to a counter attack. Though a mission planner could allocate Goons with supplies to help aide after capture. So thus not only would you need to capture a base, but you'd need to make it operational to make a "succesfull" capture.
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Just some things that were brewing in my head, Thanks For reading, and comments/interpretations are more than welcome.
-BlckMgk
p.s. If I should post these ideas somewhere else, other than the General Discussion (they may be over run by flames/whines) let me know.
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you aren't talking about "bases".... you are talking about airfields. The only thing you wish to affect is.... "airfields"...fighter planes ability to play the game. So... what you are saying is that.... without fighters you are nothing and.... you can't think of any way short of interfering with the fighters to get the fluffs in the game. "force" people tp play with you.
lazs
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I'd like to redesign the fields to. I'd like to put the fuel bunker things under about 8,000 feet of reinforced titanium armor, and spread them out so that one suicide tiffie can't pork 50% of the fuel in one suicide run.
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as i have said in the past... more factories... maybe facrories for specific units.. like a la7 factory or a b17 factory , kill it and no more of that type untill re build..but make them big , big enough so at least 10 fully loaded lancs would have to hit direct to kill. say 25 town sizes..
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Originally posted by SELECTOR
as i have said in the past... more factories... maybe facrories for specific units.. like a la7 factory or a b17 factory , kill it and no more of that type untill re build..but make them big , big enough so at least 10 fully loaded lancs would have to hit direct to kill. say 25 town sizes..
no thank you. that's 4 people who can screw up multiples of #'s of people's fun - made easier when one side is being overwhelmed. make a factory that gives beaucoup points to buffers without it having a detrimental effect on one's side, after all, with the endless respawning, for most fighter pilots, it's all about the joy of seeing a target blow up, make it the same for buffs... it's the joy of a successful drop, seeing bldgs blow up.
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Lasz have you had difficulty sometimes expressing what you want to others? It seems you fail to see what I'm getting at. This idea of course would be more suited for the MISSION ARENA (If implemented down the road). Since the mission arena would be more goal oriented, and more along the lines of a WORLD WAR 2 SIMULATION (Yes World War includes EVERYONE), not an Air Combat Furbal Sim (JUST YOU, and your FIGHTER).
This is to make Stragety much more effective and incorporate one of the biggest influences of WW2 THE BOMBER, which is what gave the fighter pilots a Reason to fly a Fighter. To actually organize and execute an attack to its fullest would be worthwhile. (For me Atleast)
Though I do like furballin (when I'm not getting shot down, and Numbers are on my side) Its just gets pointless after the 5th hour or so.
The goal of the "redesign" was to focus, bombers into a strategy. I do see what you mean that " You just want to get people to play with you" because effectively you'd need to protect the factories, so that you could eventually have fun. And to that I point you to the comment above about the War sim.
And let me ask you, if we fly 45 min out of our way to Ruin YOUR fun, why not just take 5 min out of your Busy furballin to grab a g10 and splash us out of the sky, thus your fun won't be Ruined. I'm sorry if every minute of your time isn't spent furballing between two bases.
-BlckMgk
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Redesigned strategic targets will be introduced in the next version. Targets designed with the new bomber method in mind.
Once that is done all that is needed are some gameplay changes. HTC has been totally silent on thai, but that does not mean changes aren't comming.
My recommendation is for cities and factories (excluding the HQ complex) to not be resupplyable. Cities and factories build and supply military bases, not the other way around. There is a huge, massive disincentive to bomb targets that have marginal effect on the game when you know that a bored goon pilot will have it full repiared before your B-17 or Lanc lands.
The effect of strategic targets (other than the HQ) being damaged or destroyed should be more noticable, but how is highly debatable.
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killing a fluff is not worth 5 minutes of my time... killing them is like playing a boxed game except that one of the 30 crew members is some mouse weilding strat guy.. not worth my time. And why should I be 'forced" to kill fluffs? it doesn't make my online experiance any better it is merely a "chore"... worthless pandering to a group of people who can't or won't play on equal terms.
perhaps when the 163 is modeled i may rocket on up once in a while to kill the mostly drone gamey fluffs if it doesn't take to much of my time.
Why don't you simply advocate large/huge cities that, once destroyed, end the "war"... much more realistic. Leave the fighters to do as they please. Even Germany had no shortage of fighters till the end. Why force people to pay attention to you?
lazs
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OK, all great suggestions. But before we debate what should be done about cities, effect of buffs on bases etc., let's address the original question: declining numbers of people flying buffs. Does anyone know if 1.11 is going to see fixes for all the many bugs and problems besetting buff formations?
In no way do I want to go back to the pre-1.10 days with the bombing. Much as I hate to admit it, Lazs and others had a point when they talked about how ridiculous it was to have one Lanc close an entire base. (Of course, now that has been replaced by the gangbang Tiffie-dweeb mission, but that's another story). And even as someone who flys buffs (although with a steadily declining frequency since the last release) I don't want bombing simplified in any way. If I'm patient, and plan, I can get good alt, and do a reasonable amount of damage even from 20-25K. The system takes a little getting used to, but it's not that hard.
Before any of this stuff about cities and strat changes gets addressed, the buffs themselves need to be fixed. It's simply not worth my while taking up a formation when I know that the first plane that pings me is more than likely going to bring down two of the ships in my flight, if not all three. I've lost count of how many times this has happened to me. And on the other end of gunsight, as a figher pilot attacking buffs I know that if I get one I can almost always get a bonus kill; and it often happens that hitting one plane results in the spontaneous destruction of all three. It's not the godlike powers of buffs we need to worry about, it's the godlike powers of attacking fighters! There doesn't seem to be any predicatable reason that governs any of this behavior (what part of the aircraft is hit, what kind of plane is attacking, which position I'm in) and as someone who is reasonably serious about their flying (which is not to say I'm good at it!) if I lose the ability to know with any degree of certainty the performance of my plane in a variety of conditions, it's a waste of time flying. Imagine the hell that would be raised if 109G-10 pilots found that their right wing spontaneously shed control surfaces as soon as they were attacked? This is the kind of lame-ass behavior that buffers put up with all the time, and little indication that I've seen that anything is being done about it.
And because of this, it really only leaves a couple of options if buffs are to be used in the main arena: a) if you are lucky you will avoid fighter attacks completely; b) a mass raid where some other poor bastard will get attacked not you, and he will suffer the random damage, the pea-shooter guns, etc; c) or, the preferred option for many, the low-level suicide run into a hotly-defended enemy base--because if the buffs are now modelled in such a stupid way, why not use them in a completely stupid fashion? It was the announced intention of HTC when 1.10 came out to foster more realistic behavior on the part of buffs. That goal has to be judged a complete failure, at this point.
Not flying buffs has absolutely nothing to do with the bombing model, the strat system or anything else. For me it's simple: I want the same expectations to be realized that I have when I get into a fighter: i.e. that when I get into a plane, whatever happens will be the result of my skill (or lack thereof) matched against the skills of those I meet.
So, behind the whine is actually a serious question: has anyone heard if these kinds of things are going to be addressed in 1.11? But hey, even if the aren't, at least we're getting the 163. :rolleyes:
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"...Why don't you simply advocate large/huge cities that, once destroyed, end the "war"... much more realistic. Leave the fighters to do as they please. ...".
Good idea actually. Fighter hangers could be moved away from the bomber targets...cities, factories, etc. Bomber/strat guys can win the war without necessarily interfering with the fighter/non-strat guys. Seems fair to both sides.
bowser
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Then why do you play Aces High and not just some net games in IL-2 or something?
I play AH precisely FOR the large-scale strategy where what you do can affect the entire war. That's the POINT. AH is like a big war game where everyone plays a small part, and the object of the game is to defeat the opposing nations.
If there are people who want to have no part in this, and simply want to fly around "quake-style" in a large aerial playground where outcomes don't matter on any larger scale, but for some reason they still want to pay $15 per month, the dueling arena is right next door. :p
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wasn't this the depot we used to have?
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But the depot didn't effect any airfield directly, it was just another factory/object to be captured.
Great for milk runs though :-)
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the fact that you have to avoid fighters is not such a bad thing... it is highly realistic. unescorted bombers shouldn't be mixing it up with the fighters in any case. Fluffs should have thier own targets... large cities to carpet bomb.... maybe large enough formations could cause firestorms in the residential areas?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
you aren't talking about "bases".... you are talking about airfields. The only thing you wish to affect is.... "airfields"... fighter planes ability to play the game. So... what you are saying is that.... without fighters you are nothing and.... you can't think of any way short of interfering with the fighters to get the fluffs in the game. "force" people tp play with you.
It depends. Sometimes you're playing with them.
For example, last night, the knights were getting pounded at 42; there was a steady stream of rooks from 43 that were doing their best to keep the defenders at 42 low and slow and out of options -- if they backed up to 32 to get alt on the rooks, the additional flight time would let the rooks run roughshod over the field. So I backed up to 32 and took a formation of B-17s up to 13.5K and went south, taking out the west-side fighter hangars, then extending for about a third of a sector, turning back, recalibrating, and taking out the last fighter hangar, giving about 8 minutes of the field being closed to fighters. I lost one bomber after drop to a N1K2 that had climbed up to catch me, but shooed him off smoking, and pinged a 109 enough to discourage him a while later.
I landed and took a supply goon from 32 to 42. By the time I landed the supply goon, the knights had been able to take the respite from the steady stream of rooks from 43 to collect themselves and mount a jabo-based attack on 43; by the time I got my A-20 to 43, paratroops were already dropping on the town. So by m y buff run against 43, I reversed a defensive engagement and increased the fun my fellow knights were having.
It all depends on what you're aiming to do. With the current target setup, a single bomber formation isn't going to be more than a nuisance to anything but a small field or vehicle base -- but if properly applied, that nuisance can be very useful to your countrymen who want to play in fighters.
But, then, lasz, from what I've seen, if a bomber attack caused one iota of reduction in your ability to furball the way you want to, it's unconscionable interference, no matter how many people in fighters on the other side are happy with what the bomber did. And that's the fundamental problem with your attitude -- AH is a game with opposing sides; something that screws you over may be eagerly desired by the other side.
Because of the way that the game is set up, the ways that bombers historically attacked enemy air operations don't work. The strategic supply mechanism is broken, so attacking supply doesn't do anything -- a field's resupply of pilots, aircraft, parts, fuel, and ordnance are impossible to stop. The mechanism for equipping aircraft is unrealistic -- a field with half its fuel supply destroyed can only fill a plane's tanks to 50% -- but you can still fuel an infinite number of planes to 50%, regardless of the plane type, so a Bf-109E gets 200 liters of fuel, while a B-17G gets 5,300 liters of fuel. Aircraft availability is all-or-nothing -- planes are kept in indestructible underground bunkers from which they are teleported to the surface to take off, freeing pilots from the necessity of taxiing to the equally indestructible runway (although adding crater effects wouldn't impact fighters much, since most WWII fighters could take off from grass fields) from their hangars or revetments. Pilots that are 'killed' or 'captured', or bail dozens of miles from the nearest base are instantly returned to their field, where another plane is instantly available to them.
Why don't you simply advocate large/huge cities that, once destroyed, end the "war"... much more realistic. Leave the fighters to do as they please. Even Germany had no shortage of fighters till the end. Why force people to pay attention to you?
Do you really want a more historically-accurate strategic underpinning? Yes, Germany's fighter production continued to rise until the end of the war, but how many of those planes could they arm, fuel, and put in the air over a week of air ops? When a veteran pilot was killed, how much actual flight time did the new pilot that replaced him actually have before arriving at his unit? How would you like to fly from fields where the field had 10,000 liters of fuel -- for the entire day -- and when it was used up, there wouldn't be any more unless someone flew in more in goons? How would you feel if, after having been shot down and killed, the next few times you took off the game would apply random control inputs to simulate you're being a pilot fresh out of the Luftwaffe's training program with all of 30 minutes flight time in a real plane?
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We have been here SOOOOOO many times before - :rolleyes:
Lets face it - its the descision between a war simulation and a fighter combat based game. The descision as far as I can see has been made and the gamers won.
I love bombing and the new model but the MA is not the place for buffs any more - it is simply too crowded and not organised enough. Roll over and let it go - when the mission arena arrives then we'll see what happens.
Let Laz and the others have their furball Nirvana - as long as new fodder turns up they'll be happy. It's not my sort of game but I'm not HTC.
BlckMgk - look in the Gameplay forum under "dead horses" for the multiple violent threads on this topic
< stands back, gets a beer and waits for Wotan to show up>
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Originally posted by SELECTOR
like a la7 factory, kill it and no more of that type untill re build...
I'm already practicing Buff runs...
:D
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It's pointless to change the MA. It should be let alone as it is currently and only add planes, forget the strat. The energy is wasted trying to "improve" the MA. All effort should be put forward on the concept of the Mission Arena. Leave the MA as the Furball arena. The MA can't be everything to everyone.
I want to see the Mission Arena be the cutting edge of online flight sims!
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I would like to see the numbers on how long the average person spends in the arena in one sitting. My guess is a couple of hours at most.
But here you are talking about limiting fuel or ammo or places to take of or... or What? seems every "strategic" target you are talking about is... fighters and the pilots. It it doesn't affect the fighters it aint squat. So... your whole purpose as a fluffer revolves around the fighters and how much attention yu can derive from them. On your own... you would be ignored. That is not my fault..
you ask to control 1-3 planes that would normally take a crew of 10-30 people and then you ask for god views of the action and all sorts of concessions so that... so that what? so that we can say we have fluffs in the game? and after you ask for all these concessions... you ask that we ignore the fact and treat you just like everyone else?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
But here you are talking about limiting fuel or ammo or places to take of or... or What? seems every "strategic" target you are talking about is... fighters and the pilots. It it doesn't affect the fighters it aint squat. So... your whole purpose as a fluffer revolves around the fighters and how much attention yu can derive from them. On your own... you would be ignored. That is not my fault..
You know, lasz, it's getting kind of pathetic to see you standing there, blowing your single-note "Fluffers shouldn't be able to affect fighter ops at an airfield" horn over and over again, while it's becoming more and more obvious that reality has long ago overtaken your argument, with the vast majority of airfield porks and closures being done by heavy fighters.
The reason why "every strategic target I talk about is fighters and the pilots" is because that's all you care about, and that's all you see, regardless of what I wrote. You couldn't care less if bomber pilots had to live with the same restrictions as I described, because as far as you're concerned, bombers only exist in your world when they interfere with what you want to do. Go back and read what I wrote. The only two cases where I specifically mentioned fighters with regard to the effects of bombing was, first, in illustrating the difference in absolute fuel load between a Bf-109 and a B-17, and second, commenting that adding crater effects wouldn't be as effective at stopping fighter operations as it would be at stopping bomber operations, because most fighters don't need a paved runway to take off from.
You know, though, in retrospect, it's really kind of funny to see you standing there waving the "Furball, Furball, Rah, Rah, Rah!" flag and screaming curses at the bomber pilots who go by, while you're completely oblivious to the jabo pilots who are coming up and cornholing you. So, please, continue with your pointless and misdirected rants. AH needs a... well, 'harlequin' sounds too pretentious, and Fool's a member of my squadron, but -- wait. Since you've got such a hard-on against bombers, why don't we just make you AH's official buffoon...
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How about adding an "HiTech Creations" Factory.
This would be a Neutral building complex in the center of the MA.
Everytime its bombed, That player gets charged an extra dollar on his account that goes toward more servers and such. (such... read as whiskey and strippers).
OK... I go back in my hole again now.
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maybe facrories for specific units.. like a la7 factory or a b17 factory , kill it and no more of that type untill re build -Selector
To be able to take out a Spitfire or La7 factory would be the only reason I'd get into a bomber and actually learn the bombing system....and I'd enjoy it!
:D
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Lasz2 wrote:
Why don't you simply advocate large/huge cities that, once destroyed, end the "war"... much more realistic. Leave the fighters to do as they please. Even Germany had no shortage of fighters till the end. Why force people to pay attention to you?
How is this any different than factories controling fuel, ord., or even plane types?!
If thats all we needed to do to win the war and get myself the bonus perkies, you bet your arse I'll be bombing those cities...
And as mentioned before, hopefully this is made effective in the Mission Arena (the primary post/idea) If not implement something of the sort to be played with in scenarios..
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I havent noticed a lack of bombers in the MA at all in fact I see bombers all the time.
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I still cannot understand why the lazs-like dedicated furballers dont go to DA or TA to do their stuff. No-one would bother them there or ruin their fun...
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Well, I can kinda answer your question. I enjoy furballing a lot. I enjoy it a lot more than flying bombers, or driving around GVs. I like bombers, because I like killing bombers, but I think it is boring as hell to be in one.
The reason I don't "go to the DA or TA" to just furball the say away is pretty stupid. It doesn't count. Thats why I stay in the MA most of the time. I'm not really a 'score potato' per se, but racking up a huge sortie in the MA is more satisfying to me than killing one guy 8 times in the DA. I like both, but I spend a lot more time in the MA. I will say that if you have two evenly matched pilots, it is sometimes more fun fighting in the DA.
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blauk... a better question would be why doesn't anyone go to the CT? or... why will no one go to the "missun" arena? I mean... look at all the advocates for boreing gameplay we have certainly they would be able to fill an arena?
lazs
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<---- sound of button being pressed
originally quoted by Lazs2look at all the advocates for boreing gameplay
Lazs - what makes you think you have The Definitive Answer[/i] on what is boring gameplay. You're opinion on what is fun / exciting / wothwhile is your opinion only and you do not speak for everyone who plays AH so why do you insist in ridiculing everyone whose opinion is different to yours ????
You label anyone who does not fly a fighter to what YOU consider an acceptable standard and to your opinion of how the game should be played as uncoordinated / limpwristed / boring / impaired etc.
I have accepted that HTC has set up the MA in such a way as to pander to the fighter gamers and that is thier business. I personnally find it boring and chaotic at the moment (and yes I've been around since beta 0.94 so seen all the game). When I look at the roster I would be more interested in how many of each plane type are flying than how many in each country - it means more about how enjoyable my online time will be.
Buffs are dead in the MA as a facet of the "Game" - Jabo is the only form of effective attack and yet it is never mentioned.
Lazs there are 100's if not 1000's of signed up AH'ers and not all of them are going to meet your bigoted view of acceptable game playing pilots - deal with it and maybe we can ALL enjoy the game.
Sparks
I stay in the hope of better to come (see news).